Will Apple Own the Emmys This Year? Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ S3E4 With Joanna Robinson.

Jul 14, 2026 · 50 min · 14 segments

Chris is joined by Joanna Robinson to talk about Apple’s surprising Emmy turnout, the Outstanding Drama Series nominations, the state of comedy, and more takeaways from this year’s slate of Emmy nominations (2:50). Then they talk about the surprising lack of summer TV and the potential reasons behind it (20:27). Later, they discuss ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 4 (32:16). Subscribe to the [Ringer TV YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@Ringer-TV) here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Joanna Robinson Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit [podcastchoices.com/adchoices](https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices)

Speakers: Chris RyanHostJoanna RobinsonGuest

Top entities: Apple×23 Netflix×21 Priceline.com×9 Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Drama Series×3 Emmy Awards×33

Boar’s Head Fryer’s Turkey Breast0:00 – 0:27

Chris RyanHost0:00

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Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

Netflix – FIFA World Cup: Launch Edition0:28 – 0:53

Chris RyanHost0:28

This episode is brought to you by Netflix.

Chris RyanHost0:30

The World Cup is finally here, and the coolest thing right now, FIFA World Cup: Launch Edition on Netflix, a fast and fluid game, where your phone is the controller and your TV is the stadium.

Chris RyanHost0:40

Play as, as any of the 48 teams in 16 real world stadiums, and it's included in your membership.

Chris RyanHost0:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost0:47

Go to the Games tab on your TV and play FIFA World Cup: Launch Edition now.

Chris RyanHost0:52

Only on Netflix.

Show Opening & Host Introductions0:54 – 1:20

Chris RyanHost0:54

[Instrumental music playing] I need support staff to clear the room.

Chris RyanHost1:03

Stand up and walk, now.

Chris RyanHost1:05

Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost1:07

My name is Chris Ryan.

Chris RyanHost1:09

I am an editor at theringer.com.

Chris RyanHost1:11

Joining me in the studio, Bringer of Her Parmander-

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:15

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:16

... it's Joya Robinson.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:18

Chris Ryan, what a, what a joy, what a delight.

Chris RyanHost1:20

What's going on?

Catching Up, Talk of Thrones & World Cup Fever1:20 – 3:44

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:20

We missed you so much on Talk of Thrones this week.

Chris RyanHost1:22

I...

Chris RyanHost1:22

You did an able-bodied job-

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:24

Chris RyanHost1:24

... replicating my, my-

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:25

Did I?

Chris RyanHost1:25

... my aura.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:26

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:26

I thought the A's hat was incredible.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:28

Great.

Chris RyanHost1:28

Black CR is definitely-

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:30

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:30

... a character that y- either me or Van can experiment with.

Chris RyanHost1:34

Um.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:34

Um, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:34

Which one do you pick?

Chris RyanHost1:35

I think Van.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:36

Yeah, okay.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:37

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:37

[laughs] Uh, we are here on Monday.

Chris RyanHost1:39

Uh, it's Odyssey week, it's World Cup week.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:42

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:42

The World Cup semis Tuesday, Wednesday, and then the final on Sunday.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:45

I know.

Chris RyanHost1:45

But there's still television to talk about.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:47

Is it coming home? What do you think?

Chris RyanHost1:50

I think that the English national team will beat Argentina.

Chris RyanHost1:52

I don't think-

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:53

Really?

Chris RyanHost1:53

... that they will be to win the final, though.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:55

Okay.

Chris RyanHost1:55

Unless there's, like, m- five injuries in the Spain-France match.

Joanna RobinsonGuest1:59

You think it's Spain-England? Is that your guess?

Chris RyanHost2:01

I have Spain winning it before the tournament-

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:03

Right.

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:03

Okay

Chris RyanHost2:03

...

Chris RyanHost2:03

so I suppose I should just stick with my prediction.

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:05

Why not?

Chris RyanHost2:06

Um, you have gotten swept up in World Cup fever.

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:09

It's, uh, it's the monoculture.

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:11

I love it.

Chris RyanHost2:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:12

There's also just, like...

Chris RyanHost2:14

It's, it's a really narrative-rich tournament, you know?

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:17

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost2:17

And there's lots of, like...

Chris RyanHost2:18

You can watch it and just be like, "Great game," or you can watch it and be like, "Now I need to find out everything about the guy who got sent off from Switzerland for simulation."

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:25

And I did.

Chris RyanHost2:26

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:26

[laughs] Well, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:27

It said mistaken identity on the-

Chris RyanHost2:29

I know.

Chris RyanHost2:30

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:30

... [laughs] on the caption, and I was like, "What's happening here?" [laughs]

Chris RyanHost2:34

Um, I wanted to talk to you about a couple things today, where I wanna chat with you a little bit about the Emmys.

Chris RyanHost2:38

Andy, uh, able, ably monologued about it-

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:41

Great

Chris RyanHost2:41

... on, on Thursday or Friday, and he also had Matt and Ben from Star City on to discuss that show, uh, which I thought was extraordinary in its first season and really hope it comes back.

Chris RyanHost2:51

I think Andy and I will talk more in depth about that on Thursday, but I wanted to ask you about the Emmys.

Joanna RobinsonGuest2:55

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:55

I wanted to talk to you a little bit about kinda coming out of the Emmys what we have for the rest of the summer, which is really-

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:01

Bleak

Chris RyanHost3:01

... not very much.

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:02

Bleak.

Chris RyanHost3:02

Uh, and then we could do a little bit of a Dragon check-in, 'cause obviously, you know, you-

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:07

Yeah

Chris RyanHost3:08

... are extensively breaking it down both on Sunday nights and with Mal tomorrow.

Chris RyanHost3:11

But-

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:11

But I, I need the episode f- for thoughts from you.

Chris RyanHost3:14

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost3:14

And I also just think it's like we're about midway through or midway-ish-

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:17

Yeah

Chris RyanHost3:17

... and I think it's a good time to do, uh, a ch- a check.

Chris RyanHost3:21

I, I did some man on the street reporting, uh, in Philadelphia, and people were surprised at our a- adoration for three-

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:28

Really?

Chris RyanHost3:28

... episode three, but generally think this season is awesome.

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:32

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:33

But they were like the moody think piece where-

Chris RyanHost3:35

Yeah, they were like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:35

... we're not really into it

Chris RyanHost3:35

... there's not enough dragons in that one.

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:37

Got it.

Chris RyanHost3:37

I want, I want, I want battles.

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:38

I want princes to die-

Chris RyanHost3:40

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:40

... and-

Chris RyanHost3:40

I want-

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:41

... ships to burn

Chris RyanHost3:41

... innocent shepherds ignited.

Joanna RobinsonGuest3:43

Right.

Chris RyanHost3:43

Uh, burnt to a crisp.

Emmys 2024 – Nominations, Snubs & Industry Impact (Pt 1)3:44 – 18:29

Chris RyanHost3:44

So let's talk a little bit about the Emmys before we get into the specific shows.

Chris RyanHost3:48

I am, uh, on the record as saying I don't really think the Emmys have the same value as the Oscars, obviously.

Chris RyanHost3:55

I mean, I don't, I don't think that they do, and that I am a little bit annoyed at the amount of gymnastics the TV industry seems to be doing for the Emmys and for the-

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:06

Scheduling-wise

Chris RyanHost4:06

...

Chris RyanHost4:06

Emmy, Emmy eligibility window.

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:08

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost4:08

I suppose one could look at this set of nominees and say, well, that's why they do it, because there are a couple of shows, say Task, our beloved Task, which I don't think got nearly enough nomin- nominations.

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost4:22

Um, or a show like Industry, which didn't quite, you know-

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:25

I know

Chris RyanHost4:25

... come up against the prime, prime window, I don't think.

Chris RyanHost4:29

But, um-

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:30

But then stuff like The Gilded Age or Pluribus, you know?

Chris RyanHost4:34

Which now seem to be, like, kind of...

Chris RyanHost4:36

I can see those shows being kind of almost grandfathered in, like stamp that every year, you know?

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:40

Gilded Age, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:41

For sure.

Chris RyanHost4:42

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost4:42

Uh, as somebody who follows the Oscars quite closely-

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:45

I do

Chris RyanHost4:45

... um, what's your, like, vibe on the Emmys? What's your, what's your...

Chris RyanHost4:49

How do you feel about the Emmys?

Joanna RobinsonGuest4:51

Uh, well so the, the value I see in the O- Oscars, I will say, is, uh, the winners help determine what kind of stories get made, right?

Chris RyanHost5:00

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:00

Do you think that there's no correlation between Emmy wins and what kind of stories get made?

Chris RyanHost5:06

What an awesome question.

Chris RyanHost5:08

I don't.

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:09

Okay.

Chris RyanHost5:09

I think that there can be moments in TV, whether it's Lost or Homeland, where you can feel executives turn around and say, "Where's my version of that?"

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost5:21

And while those shows, I think, were recognized for Emmys p- pretty heavily at various points in their runs, I don't...

Chris RyanHost5:28

Was Lost an Emmy show?

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:30

Lost early.

Chris RyanHost5:30

Early on.

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:31

First season, I believe.

Chris RyanHost5:32

Um, I don't really get the impression that that's driving, like, the sort of data-rich algorithmic-

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:39

Right

Chris RyanHost5:39

... streaming programming these days.

Chris RyanHost5:41

But I do think that one of the ways in which these streamers have bought their way into Hollywood in general-

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:47

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost5:47

... is to go nuts for, for awards.

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:49

This is my first, uh, FYC season in Los Angeles, so I'm getting to experience it a little differently and see, like, a bit more of that, of that money and-

Chris RyanHost5:58

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:58

... how it's spent.

Joanna RobinsonGuest5:59

And thinking about Apple specifically, which, um, wasn't the hot...

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:03

You know, didn't get the most nominees out of the various platforms, but performed quite well in the Emmy nominations this year.

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:11

Their model right now, which is a, a huge money loser, right?

Chris RyanHost6:16

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:16

Uh-

Chris RyanHost6:16

We assume, but yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:17

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:18

Seems as, as such.

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:19

I, I think the, I think they would report if there was profitability for-

Chris RyanHost6:22

Yeah, I don't-

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:22

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:22

Apple

Chris RyanHost6:22

... they're, even their most popular show-

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:24

Right

Chris RyanHost6:24

... like Ted Lasso, for instance, I don't, I don't think would m- be a drop in the bucket compared to, like, a Taylor Sheridan show personally.

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:32

I don't, but it's not even just numbers, it's just, like, money in, money out.

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:35

Like, you know-

Chris RyanHost6:36

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:36

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:36

they, they don't have, uh, ads, and they pour billions of dollars into, like billion with a B-

Chris RyanHost6:42

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:42

... into their content.

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:43

So it's almost like a, if you look at, like, Apple and Amazon, these are just sort of like, "Oh, and we have a streamer," you know?

Chris RyanHost6:51

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest6:51

We make all of our money on our devices, or we make all of our money with people buy- buying toilet paper in Amazon's case, and then also we have a streamer because Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos want to be part of the Hollywood.

Chris RyanHost7:03

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:03

And so, like, Tim Cook, let's say specifically with Apple, wanting to, like, be at the Emmys and be part of the Emmy conversation, obviously Tim Cook's about to not be the chief-

Chris RyanHost7:13

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:13

... over there, but Tim Cook wanting to be part of that Hollywood conversation means that Apple is chasing a certain kind of show, which means that the Apple lineup to me right now looks a bit like what HBO did, uh-

Chris RyanHost7:27

Yes

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:27

... a while ago, you know?

Chris RyanHost7:28

Yeah, where it took the lessons that HBO taught and said, "Okay," like, what's the more, I don't wanna say vanilla, but what's a safer version of this?

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:36

Absol- I mean, safer I would agree with.

Chris RyanHost7:38

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:38

Uh, I would even agree with vanilla, honestly.

Chris RyanHost7:40

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:40

But, like, uh, and there are Apple shows that both of us really love.

Chris RyanHost7:43

Of course, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:43

Of, of course.

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:44

But, like, um, and that star model that they have, but, but as HBO is doing this interesting pivot, and obviously HBO got the highest number of-

Chris RyanHost7:52

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:52

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:52

Emmy nominations, so it's not like it's slouching around.

Joanna RobinsonGuest7:55

But, like, they're doing this IP pivot, you know, that's part of their new model and stuff like that.

Chris RyanHost8:01

Going through a merger, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:02

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:02

So Apple has an opportunity, and I feel like in the conversations that I've had with people inside of the industry, Apple is chewing up a lot of space in the conversation.

Chris RyanHost8:12

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:13

And I-

Chris RyanHost8:13

I would also say for as much as that they're taking a little bit of the space from HBO, they're filling the vacuum that Netflix seems to have left by more or less pivoting-

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:22

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost8:22

... away from prestige awards driven TV fare.

Chris RyanHost8:25

I think every year they still have a couple of movies that they splash around for.

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:30

Do you think it was Apple winning the Oscar for CODA, and Netflix is just like, "Fuck it."

Chris RyanHost8:35

Fuck this.

Chris RyanHost8:36

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:36

[laughs] We've been trying for years.

Chris RyanHost8:39

I don't know.

Chris RyanHost8:40

I, I, I will be very interested to see where this conversation is this time next year and where especially the, the movies on Netflix conversation is for this time next year.

Chris RyanHost8:51

But I, I do feel like Netflix, while still having two or three, like, very notable releases a year-

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:57

Yeah

Chris RyanHost8:58

... for our purposes-

Joanna RobinsonGuest8:59

Yeah

Chris RyanHost9:00

... it's fewer and farther in between where I'm like, there's a Netflix show that we need to talk about.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:04

What is the latest you've heard about this idea that there might be an Adolescence season two?

Chris RyanHost9:08

I have not heard that.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:09

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:09

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:09

That's, that's in the conversation, and I'm just like-

Chris RyanHost9:11

With the same characters-

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:12

Chris RyanHost9:12

... or just, like, riffing on, like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:13

I think it-

Chris RyanHost9:13

... similar themes

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:14

... might be anthology.

Chris RyanHost9:16

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:16

Uh, but that sort of shocked me, uh, a bit.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:20

But, you know, it's like one of the biggest hits they've ever had.

Chris RyanHost9:23

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:23

I mean, on one hand, I can kinda see why.

Chris RyanHost9:25

I mean, they basically, because of when they released it, went on an 18-month award jag for it.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:30

So it's, like, clearly something that has just been anointed.

Chris RyanHost9:34

Uh, you know, Jack Thorne, I can't believe he has the time.

Chris RyanHost9:37

Uh, but Stephen Graham, if he can squeeze that in after Heat 2, all the, all power to him.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:42

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:43

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost9:44

Um, I wanted to ask you about, uh, the Outstanding Drama nominations-

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:49

Chris RyanHost9:49

... because that was, let me just call it, the noms up here really quickly, because that was one-

Joanna RobinsonGuest9:55

Where you threw your computer across the room?

Chris RyanHost9:57

I didn't throw anything.

Chris RyanHost9:59

I, I, I was like, this is sort of what I imagined was gonna happen.

Chris RyanHost10:03

You know, there are shows here that I have not gotten a chance to watch or have fallen behind on, so, like, Diplomat, um, my, Phoebe, my wife, loves that show.

Chris RyanHost10:12

I have not gotten to see beyond season one, I think.

Joanna RobinsonGuest10:15

I was a little surprised that The Diplomat was here.

Chris RyanHost10:17

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest10:18

I, I know that it's, as it's become increasingly like West Wing methadone-

Chris RyanHost10:22

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest10:22

... you know, as they just, like, bring more and more cast members from The West Wing on, like, I, I understand that it's maybe feeling a bit, but it, it's so soapy to me in a way that I was surprised that it's here.

Chris RyanHost10:31

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost10:32

And then Gilded Age, I think I've, I've loved at various points.

Chris RyanHost10:36

I find it eminently watchable-

Joanna RobinsonGuest10:37

Chris RyanHost10:37

... and entertaining.

Chris RyanHost10:38

But those two are at the top, and then you've got Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Paradise, season two Andy and I talked about with amusement, but I don't think was as good as the first season.

Chris RyanHost10:49

The Pit, uh, Pluribus, Slow Horses, Your Friends and Neighbors.

Chris RyanHost10:54

And I wanted to say-

Joanna RobinsonGuest10:55

Yeah

Chris RyanHost10:56

...

Chris RyanHost10:56

I was gonna ask you, like, you know, is there any, like, I'd trade this for that-

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:01

Yeah

Chris RyanHost11:01

...

Chris RyanHost11:01

in the Outstanding Drama that you can think of?

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:04

Easy.

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:04

Easy.

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:04

Your Friends and Neighbors, it's preposterous that this is here, despite what I just said about Apple.

Chris RyanHost11:08

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:08

Like, I think that show is terrible, and I'm-

Chris RyanHost11:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:11

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:11

... confused why it's here.

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:12

Um, so, like, Industry is the biggest snub obviously.

Chris RyanHost11:16

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:16

Um, I'll come correct on the watch and, and honor your god, which is Industry.

Chris RyanHost11:21

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:21

But also, like, you know, this season of Industry was incredible.

Chris RyanHost11:25

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:25

And it's, I, I know that Andy, I, I'm not sure if Andy hit this when he did his pod, but I, Andy illuminated to me over the weekend when I saw him, he was just kinda like, "That's just not something..." Like, the voting bloc is conservative in so much as, like, they're not gonna go for an overly bleak, nihilistic, fast-talking British, like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:48

Maybe

Chris RyanHost11:49

... coke drama.

Chris RyanHost11:49

I, you know, but I, I th- I, I would definitely, I would go as far as to trade off Slow Horses for Industry.

Chris RyanHost11:56

Like, I would get rid of one of my darlings if, for it.

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:59

Sure.

Chris RyanHost11:59

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest11:59

And then The Lowdown I would put in here-

Chris RyanHost12:02

Yes

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:02

... before I would put The Diplomat or Paradise, with love and respect.

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:05

Like, or I'm not really into The Gilded Age personally, but, like, The Pit being here, Pluribus being here, those two feel incredibly important that they're here.

Chris RyanHost12:12

And I'm happy for Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:14

And I'm, I'm, like, thrilled-

Chris RyanHost12:16

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:16

... for Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:17

I'm, I was a little surprised that it, that it didn't get, like, a single acting nom.

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:20

If, if they were, like, considering it in this category-

Chris RyanHost12:23

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:23

... that it didn't get a single acting nom, but maybe that's, like, a, a season two choice.

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:26

I guess my other question, and, and, you know, you and I are not Emmy scholars, but, like, is something with Industry a bit more like- If they weren't on board from the very beginning with the show, they don't love to get in on it-

Chris RyanHost12:39

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:39

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:39

in a later season.

Chris RyanHost12:40

I would have to go back and look at how Breaking Bad developed into the Emmy juggernaut-

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:45

Oh, okay

Chris RyanHost12:45

... that it became.

Chris RyanHost12:46

And a lot of that, I think, was driven by Cranston and his performance.

Chris RyanHost12:49

But was-

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:49

And the Netflix bump

Chris RyanHost12:50

...

Chris RyanHost12:50

Breaking Bad a or, a first season Emmys thing?

Joanna RobinsonGuest12:54

I don't think so, and I think, uh, I mean, it, that just became undeniable in a way that Industry-

Chris RyanHost13:00

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:00

... unfortunately isn't.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:01

Industry is, like, a smaller, like, in terms of numbers, right?

Chris RyanHost13:04

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost13:04

I was trying to think of something w- would be, like, aspirational for Industry now going into its final season.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:09

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost13:09

So it's a little bit beyond the point.

Chris RyanHost13:10

But maybe a better comp would be Saul.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:13

Sure.

Chris RyanHost13:13

Where I don't think that that had a lot of recognition early on, but then started to towards the end.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:19

And there is, there was a bit for a time a sort of like, "It's time for Jon Hamm."

Chris RyanHost13:23

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:24

You know, "It's time for Kyle Chandler," or something.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:26

You know what I mean? Like, um, it's time for Matthew Rhys with The Americans.

Chris RyanHost13:30

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:30

You know, so...

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:31

Uh, but I think that has more to do with performance than, like, they like...

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:34

What, what the Emmys like to do, the TV Academy like to do, is rubber stamp a show from the beginning and then just sort of-

Chris RyanHost13:41

Give it-

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:41

... stick with it

Chris RyanHost13:41

... an award for five years.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:42

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost13:43

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost13:43

So we've saw that with, obviously, West Wing.

Chris RyanHost13:45

We saw that with Modern Family.

Joanna RobinsonGuest13:48

Sure.

Chris RyanHost13:48

Like, you know, there are, there are historic runs that shows go on.

Chris RyanHost13:50

I was actually, like, sort of dovetails nicely into n- the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which was a show that we obviously both adored and covered extensively was Widows Bay.

Chris RyanHost13:59

Kind of a late-breaking show in so much-

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:01

Yeah

Chris RyanHost14:01

... as I think it was still running when voting, when the window closed at least, or-

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:05

Yes

Chris RyanHost14:06

... you know, so, like, a couple of those episodes technically wouldn't be-

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:09

I think they could only deliver the first episode.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:12

I wanna...

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:12

It's, like, something-

Chris RyanHost14:13

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:13

... like, really, um, narrow, I think.

Chris RyanHost14:16

Like, highly technical about that?

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost14:19

Do you think then that A, is it, like, a, is it a runaway train, or is it, like, a nice pleasantly surprised? Like, is...

Chris RyanHost14:27

'Cause Widows Bay- Bay by far among people I talk to is the most beloved new show of the year.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:33

Yes.

Chris RyanHost14:34

And so I didn't know whether that-

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:35

New, yes

Chris RyanHost14:35

... would necessarily translate to, to voting.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:38

Um, I, I wasn't surprised that it got nominated.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:41

I was not surprised that Matthew, Matthew Rhys getting nominated felt like a, a lock to me.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:45

Him getting double nominated is fascinating.

Chris RyanHost14:48

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:48

Um, Cato Flynn I was, like, pretty sure, but, like, Dale Dickey getting nominated I think is, that's when you, you get really excited for a show.

Chris RyanHost14:57

Yeah, and Nick Offerman, Gilpin getting guest nods.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:59

You know? Yeah.

Chris RyanHost14:59

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest14:59

Like, when, when they start to dominate in the guest category, you know, the, the White Lotus phenomena or the Pit phenomenon where it's just sort of, like, how many actors from this show can we sort of-

Chris RyanHost15:10

Are there three or four, uh, supporting actress in The Pit?

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:14

I think there's four, but not Isabella Rosselini-

Chris RyanHost15:15

From the-

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:15

... for some, for some reason.

Chris RyanHost15:16

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:17

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:18

And so it's just sort of like that, uh, when you start to nominate sort of down the cast list-

Chris RyanHost15:23

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:23

... that's why, that's when it's not just sort of like, oh, a shiny new thing fluke.

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:27

It's let's take this seriously, and if I were HBO so certain that Hacks, the final season of Hacks, which also got heavily, heavily nominated-

Chris RyanHost15:37

Yes

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:37

... uh, hugely nominated.

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:38

But if I were so certain that, like, you know, Jean Smart was again gonna win and, and et cetera, et cetera, I w- I would put a little bit more oomph behind my campaign.

Chris RyanHost15:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost15:47

I, uh, you know, so the other comedy, outstanding comedy who's nominated are Nobody Wants This, The Bear, Abbott, Shrinking, Only Murders, and the aforementioned Hacks.

Chris RyanHost15:56

And do you-

Joanna RobinsonGuest15:57

Only, Only Murders is one of those where, like, I th- they decided early on Only Murders-

Chris RyanHost16:01

And they've just-

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:01

And they're just sort of like-

Chris RyanHost16:02

They really want Steve Martin and Martin Short-

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:03

Yeah

Chris RyanHost16:03

... to come to the ceremony.

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:04

They're like, "Here, here it is."

Chris RyanHost16:06

But if, if you'd asked me three months ago or two months ago, I would've just been like, "Yeah, this is Hacks victory lap," and like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:12

Right

Chris RyanHost16:12

...

Chris RyanHost16:12

the sort of great bear war is over, and, you know, that Hacks won and can write-

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:17

They won that whisper campaign of, "Is this really a comedy?" [laughs]

Chris RyanHost16:20

Yeah, it wasn't that much of a whisper.

Chris RyanHost16:22

It was shouting.

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:22

The shout campaign.

Chris RyanHost16:23

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost16:23

Um, but I, I do wonder whether or not the sheer excitement around Widows Bay, around something new, around something tonally a little bit different from stuff that's come out maybe over the last couple of years is, is, like, significant enough to push it.

Chris RyanHost16:40

I think that there will be...

Chris RyanHost16:42

It's not gonna be, like, a clean sweep for Hacks, I don't think.

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:44

I, uh, I would love to see that.

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:45

I would love to see more division.

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:47

Like, it really gets so boring at the Emmys when it's just sort of like The Pit wins everything, and Hacks wins everything, and you just sort of, uh, zone out in the beginning of the ceremony and don't tune back in, basically.

Joanna RobinsonGuest16:58

But, like, if it's, if it's parceled out a bit more...

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:00

Like, Jean Smart should get her umpteenth Emmy.

Chris RyanHost17:05

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:06

She should get it.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:07

So should Hannah Einbinder, but I would not be upset if, like, a Kate O'Flynn who just, like, came out of nowhere absolutely crushed it, everyone is obsessed with her.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:16

Like, that would just be really fun.

Chris RyanHost17:17

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:17

And, like, sort of like a handing off of the baton of just sort of like, like, Hacks is bowing out.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:22

Widows Bay is fresh and brand new.

Chris RyanHost17:24

I also kinda want this to happen for Widows Bay because it doesn't feel like it's going to be ready until, I mean, at, at the very least late next year, I would imagine.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:35

Wouldn't it be fun if it was a Halloween show?

Chris RyanHost17:38

It would be.

Chris RyanHost17:39

I, I...

Chris RyanHost17:39

But she's just starting to write it, I think.

Chris RyanHost17:42

Kate-

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:42

Yes.

Chris RyanHost17:43

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:43

I think that's true, but also isn't it true that she's, like, had at least had, like, ideas-

Chris RyanHost17:48

You're probably right

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:48

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:48

in the tank for a long time? I think you're probably right, but I am trying to be optimistic about shows coming back, and this idea of, like, the, the Pit-ification, uh, I guess is what we're calling it.

Chris RyanHost17:59

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest17:59

But, like, how excited are we, two people who talk a lot about television, that next January if all goes according to plan, we get another season of Night of the Seven Kingdoms, and we get The Pit-

Chris RyanHost18:10

Yes

Joanna RobinsonGuest18:10

... starting its m- several month run.

Chris RyanHost18:12

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest18:12

And it's just sort of like those are two great shows at the top of the year that we can feel confident.

Chris RyanHost18:17

And we could get Task relatively soon after that.

Joanna RobinsonGuest18:19

That would be thrilling.

Chris RyanHost18:20

I guess.

Chris RyanHost18:21

No, probably not until, like, s- summer, I would imagine.

Joanna RobinsonGuest18:23

It would be a great summer show.

Chris RyanHost18:24

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest18:25

All that quarry.

Chris RyanHost18:26

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost18:26

[laughs] We gotta get back to the-

Joanna RobinsonGuest18:28

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost18:28

We gotta get back to rock diving.

FanDuel – Let There Be Goals18:29 – 19:00

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Chris RyanHost18:33

Including equalizers?

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Carvana – Buyer’s Rejoice19:00 – 19:30

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Accenture & Spotify – Reinventing Ad Operations19:31 – 19:59

Joanna RobinsonGuest19:31

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Joanna RobinsonGuest19:33

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Joanna RobinsonGuest19:50

The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most.

Joanna RobinsonGuest19:57

Learn more at accenture.com/spotify.

Priceline – Get to the Big Game20:01 – 20:36

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Emmys 2024 – Limited-Series Shake-Ups & Fan Favorites (Pt 2)20:31 – 23:30

Chris RyanHost20:31

You know, the limited series has been, uh, a, a category in flux-

Joanna RobinsonGuest20:37

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost20:37

...

Chris RyanHost20:37

I would say.

Chris RyanHost20:38

Uh, this, there's no White Lotus this year to dominate it, I suppose.

Joanna RobinsonGuest20:41

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost20:42

But Shogun moving out of limited, didn't it move out of in limited anthology into outstanding drama the year that-

Joanna RobinsonGuest20:48

Yes

Chris RyanHost20:48

...

Chris RyanHost20:48

it won, and its return is, I suppose, still imminent, but, like, I don't know when.

Joanna RobinsonGuest20:54

Yeah, they're still filming, I believe, so-

Chris RyanHost20:56

Joanna RobinsonGuest20:56

... like next year?

Chris RyanHost20:57

Next year.

Joanna RobinsonGuest20:57

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost20:57

And then Task announcing that it was going to be a continuing series-

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:02

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost21:02

... rather than a limited series tweaks this s- limited series category.

Chris RyanHost21:07

And I do wonder if Task would've walked this if it had just been like a one-off, like Mare style, although, you know, with Julianne Nicholson coming, now everything is-

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:18

How excited are you?

Chris RyanHost21:18

Now everything is an ongoing series.

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:20

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost21:20

I'm very excited.

Chris RyanHost21:22

Is Love Story just gonna walk this category because of its popularity? What do you think is gonna happen here?

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:26

I would have said possibly yes, except he didn't get nominated.

Chris RyanHost21:31

Oh, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:32

And that's, I mean, I think sort of deservingly so.

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:35

But I would, I, I would love for like Constance Zimmer to win for that show.

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:38

I did not love that show at all.

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:40

Um, but I thought there were a couple great performances.

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:43

Um, I liked Beef season 2 a lot more than a lot of people did-

Chris RyanHost21:47

Sure

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:47

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:47

so you know, and it got-

Chris RyanHost21:48

I like Beef season 2 a lot

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:49

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:49

it got pretty well nominated as well.

Joanna RobinsonGuest21:51

Um, but yeah, it's a very funky year for that category.

Chris RyanHost21:54

Yeah, I can't tell, I can't get a feel for the DTF, uh, fandom-

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:01

Chris RyanHost22:01

... or the d- the feeling of DTF among the awards block-

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:05

Yeah

Chris RyanHost22:05

...

Chris RyanHost22:06

the comm- the voting block

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:06

But Bateman is always like a real power player-

Chris RyanHost22:08

Sure

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:08

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:08

in the award space.

Chris RyanHost22:09

And he's running for Black Rabbit, I think-

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:11

Yeah

Chris RyanHost22:11

...

Chris RyanHost22:11

in some, one of those categories.

Chris RyanHost22:13

But I, I was, I was struck by, you know, when we were talking about it, and Andy and I were a little bit dismissive I admit, but it was just like the passion with which people responded to us being like, "No, you've gotta keep giving it a chance.

Chris RyanHost22:26

You've gotta-"

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:27

DTF.

Chris RyanHost22:27

"... keep giving it..." Yeah, DTF.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:28

We got so many emails.

Chris RyanHost22:29

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:29

"Why aren't you covering DTF? What's wrong with you?"

Chris RyanHost22:31

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:31

So.

Chris RyanHost22:31

And I think Steve Conrad has like a really dedicated fan base, but this went beyond that.

Chris RyanHost22:35

I think this, this really caught on with some people.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:36

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost22:37

You mentioned Beef.

Chris RyanHost22:38

Beast in Me I think could also be a surprise here.

Chris RyanHost22:40

Um-

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:40

People liked that.

Chris RyanHost22:41

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:42

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost22:42

I thought it was entertaining.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:43

Like with a lot of limited series, especially a Netflix limited series, I'm like, there are episodes I really liked.

Chris RyanHost22:48

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:49

You know? Like if you put Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys in a room and let them cook for an episode, that's great.

Joanna RobinsonGuest22:54

And then elsewise you're like, I mean, I'm going through this with Cape Fear right now, but like, why, you're like, why is this many episodes?

Chris RyanHost22:59

Why, why is this happening to me? [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:01

[laughs] Why isn't this a movie?

Chris RyanHost23:03

Um.

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:03

Riz Ahmed getting nominated for Bait, I, I was really happy to see that-

Chris RyanHost23:06

That was cool

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:07

... because I really liked that show, and that was just like a huge passion project for a performer that I really like.

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:12

So.

Chris RyanHost23:12

Yeah, I was very happy to see him in the, in the Digger trailer.

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:16

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost23:16

Um, seemingly really understanding the assignment maybe even more than some of the other people in that movie.

Chris RyanHost23:22

Uh, I was curious where your head was at now that we've kind of gotten out on the other side of the Emmy eligibility calendar, part of the calendar-

Summer TV Drought & Streaming Strategies23:31 – 35:09

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:31

Yeah

Chris RyanHost23:31

... and now we're entering into this-

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:33

Yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost23:33

... sort of summer.

Chris RyanHost23:34

And I don't know why I have this association over the last 10 years, like really for the almost the entire time I've been doing the pod with Andy, that summer's busy, that Game of Thrones is on, or, you know-

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:45

Chris RyanHost23:45

... there's, there's a couple of shows on during the summer that keep people really occupied.

Chris RyanHost23:50

And then the, the, that there is more of like this 12-month TV calendar, and now I almost feel like we are reverting back to pre-streaming-

Joanna RobinsonGuest23:59

Yeah, remember when there was no summer TV?

Chris RyanHost24:00

TV is a September to May-

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:02

Yeah

Chris RyanHost24:03

... activity.

Chris RyanHost24:04

Uh, and, and the summers are essentially a ghost, ghost town.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:08

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost24:09

It kinda feels like that's where we're going again.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:11

It's, I mean, as the whole thing is swinging back to, uh, as like didn't Netflix just announce that they're introducing like channels?

Chris RyanHost24:18

Always on channels.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:18

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost24:19

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:19

I mean, we're just trying to reinvent the thing-

Chris RyanHost24:22

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:22

... that we fled from in the first place.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:24

My understanding is that part of that is as these very streamers move from subscribers at any cost to, "Fuck, we actually have to make a profit"-

Chris RyanHost24:33

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:33

... um, that's changing their sort of throw anything at the wall and see if it sticks, which goes back to your question about limited series.

Chris RyanHost24:39

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:39

Because, um, w- what I've heard is that- Nobody wants a limited series anymore, right? Um, because you can't, you can't build a library off of a limited series-

Chris RyanHost24:51

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:51

... uh, you can't get that, like, sort of second season pop off a limited series, all this sort of stuff.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:56

And so it's, it's not profitable.

Joanna RobinsonGuest24:59

It w- it was all the rage.

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:01

And, and when it was in its heyday, like when, you know, you and I at different outlets were covering True Detective and Fargo-

Chris RyanHost25:07

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:07

... and all the rest, and, and I think you and I as-

Chris RyanHost25:09

And, like, The Night Of or whatever.

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:10

Yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost25:11

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:11

And I think you and I as fans of, um, the British TV models, I, I mean, I'll just speak for myself, I got r- I was like, "Yeah, do what British TV does so well."

Chris RyanHost25:21

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:21

But it's not, uh, turning...

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:24

It's, uh, it's almost like British TV is on a government model.

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:26

Um, they're-

Chris RyanHost25:27

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:27

... they're not turning a profit, right? And so they're just sort of like, "Okay, this is too expensive."

Chris RyanHost25:31

Well, it's now, and when you look at...

Chris RyanHost25:33

I, 'cause when I was looking at what's coming out this summer-

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:35

Yeah

Chris RyanHost25:36

... and there's a couple of Apple, specifically Apple, bringing over British-made-

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:42

Chris RyanHost25:42

... uh, s- series.

Chris RyanHost25:44

And there's been some talk in British media about, like, is the BBC or the, are w- is our television industry essentially a feeder system for Hollywood now?

Joanna RobinsonGuest25:53

Apple and Netflix? Interesting.

Chris RyanHost25:54

Um, which I'm sure is profitable for the, you know, 'cause they, they are not dealing with the same economic model that the American film television industry are.

Chris RyanHost26:03

But I don't know.

Chris RyanHost26:04

I mean, I think that on z- one hand, I kind of welcome the break of there not being, like, an always-

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:11

Yeah

Chris RyanHost26:11

... like, 12 month a year constant rush of TV shows.

Chris RyanHost26:15

But I now almost think they've over-corrected and there's, like, a huge-

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:20

I think there's just-

Chris RyanHost26:20

... dead zone here for somebody to be like, "Why don't we put this here?"

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:23

An opportunity.

Chris RyanHost26:23

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:24

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost26:24

Um, like in the next couple of weeks, this is what's coming out soon, I mean, from what I could tell.

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:28

And that's why we're covering Cape Fear.

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:30

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost26:30

Exactly, yeah.

Chris RyanHost26:31

That's why we spent 10 weeks doing Star City.

Chris RyanHost26:33

Uh, eight weeks.

Chris RyanHost26:34

Uh, Lucky, Ted Lasso, those are Apple summer shows.

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:38

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost26:38

Lucky and Ted Lasso.

Chris RyanHost26:39

And then Slow Horses comes out in September, but Slow Horses at this point is, like, you've either got season tickets or you don't.

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:45

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost26:45

Like, Netflix has The Hawk, which has been on the stove for a while.

Chris RyanHost26:49

It's the Will Ferrell golf-

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:51

Yes

Chris RyanHost26:52

... comedy that, uh, Ramy Youssef had been involved with and now has different, uh-

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:56

Yeah

Chris RyanHost26:57

... s-

Joanna RobinsonGuest26:57

And can't throw a rock in this town without hitting a billboard for it.

Chris RyanHost26:59

Exactly.

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:00

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost27:00

Um, and the only other thing that jumped out at me aside from Tires Season 3 was-

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:06

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost27:06

... uh, the Bombing of Pan Am 103, which I think only appeals to us because of the cast.

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:14

Connor Swindells.

Chris RyanHost27:15

Connor Swindells-

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:16

Ed Norton

Chris RyanHost27:16

...

Chris RyanHost27:16

Eddie Marsan, Peter Mullan, Merritt Wever-

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:18

Ugh

Chris RyanHost27:19

... uh, and Patrick J. Adams.

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:20

Ugh.

Chris RyanHost27:21

What a lineup.

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost27:22

But it looks like a very, very procedural, like, TikTok of this tragedy.

Chris RyanHost27:28

And I don't really know, like, like, how much ground...

Chris RyanHost27:32

I- there was already a Lockerbie miniseries, I think, that was on Peacock-

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost27:36

... with Colin Firth, like a year or two ago.

Chris RyanHost27:39

That's what I saw for them.

Chris RyanHost27:40

It's also six episodes, which may be a bit long, uh, for that story, but I, I don't remember.

Chris RyanHost27:47

Uh-

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:48

Because it should be a movie.

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:49

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost27:50

Yes.

Chris RyanHost27:50

Yeah, probably.

Chris RyanHost27:51

Um-

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:51

We love television-

Chris RyanHost27:52

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:52

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:52

but so many of these things should be movies.

Chris RyanHost27:55

Uh, Paramount, basically Lioness Season 3, which-

Joanna RobinsonGuest27:58

But that's for you

Chris RyanHost27:59

... obviously I'm very excited about, but that's it for them.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:01

Say thank you, Paramount.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:02

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost28:02

Thank you, thank you D- Daddy David-

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:04

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost28:05

... for serving me.

Chris RyanHost28:06

FX has The Shards.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:08

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost28:09

Ryan Murphy's adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis' novel.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost28:12

HBO's got Lanterns.

Chris RyanHost28:13

Unless I'm, unless I have missed something.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:16

No.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:16

Absolutely not.

Chris RyanHost28:17

And those are-

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:18

Luckily-

Chris RyanHost28:18

...

Chris RyanHost28:18

The Shards and Lanterns and Adults and a bunch of that stuff is, like, later in August.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:22

Yeah, exactly.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:24

Um, a- and it's not like they got out of the way for something.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:27

Did they get out of the way of The Odyssey? I don't know until they were like-

Chris RyanHost28:30

The World Cup?

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:31

The World Cup

Chris RyanHost28:31

Like, I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:31

I've no, I've n- I don't, I've not experienced a summer like this in a long time in terms of, like, looking at what to cover and being completely baffled.

Chris RyanHost28:39

I would love to know the algorithm of, like, this is why we have to put 10 shows out on Apple in two months, but then one or two shows for June, for late June, July, and, and the beginning of August.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:51

But I mean, they did, you know, they had Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, Cape Fear, Lucky-

Chris RyanHost28:56

Star City, yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:57

... you know, Star City.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:57

I'm sorry.

Chris RyanHost28:58

That's okay, no. [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:59

Uh, Star City.

Joanna RobinsonGuest28:59

But I did watch the first episode of Star City.

Chris RyanHost29:01

Did you like it?

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:01

I told you I would.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:01

I did really like it, but I was also like, "Oh, this is made in a lab for you."

Chris RyanHost29:06

She...

Chris RyanHost29:06

Yes.

Chris RyanHost29:06

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:06

So I understood why.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:07

Um-

Chris RyanHost29:07

It's Russian Andor.

Chris RyanHost29:08

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:08

Yeah, exactly.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:09

[laughs] I was, I was like, "Oh, it's the life of, lives of others.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:12

Great."

Chris RyanHost29:12

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:13

Um, I had a g- I had a great time.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:14

Um, The Shards I'm, I'm fascinated by.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:16

I'm fascinated by this YA show swing-

Chris RyanHost29:20

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:20

... that's happening that Apple apparently doesn't want anything to do with, but Amazon is leaning all the way in.

Chris RyanHost29:24

Oh my God, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:25

Right? Like, they're like, "This is our brand now."

Chris RyanHost29:26

The, all I hear is people humping.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:29

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost29:29

Not me involved, but like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:30

Right

Chris RyanHost29:30

... coming out of-

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:31

Phoebe, Phoebe watching.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:32

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost29:32

[laughs] Yeah, off the television, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:34

Young people humping.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:35

But yeah, it's, it's, it's-

Chris RyanHost29:36

She's a hockey player and she's this, and yeah, I'm just like, "Okay." Like, "Let's, let's give it a shot."

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:41

[laughs] I suppose.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:42

Um, I, yeah, I don't know what to tell you.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:43

Like, it's fascinating.

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:44

But, but what I will say to all the people who run streamers who are listening to this podcast, what an opportunity you have next summer-

Chris RyanHost29:51

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:51

... to absolutely own the space if you want to.

Chris RyanHost29:54

Yeah, I mean-

Joanna RobinsonGuest29:54

The runway is clear

Chris RyanHost29:55

... it'll be, I, I can't tell the way Sean kinda has a feel for production cycles, release schedule cycles on the big picture and, like, what's happening in Hollywood and why people are clearing out this weekend but coming hard for this weekend and whether or not something that ha- cut- is August the new dump Youary kinda thing? I don't really have a feel for that.

Chris RyanHost30:15

I would imagine these companies are pretty sophisticated at this point.

Chris RyanHost30:19

They must have data that suggests, like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest30:22

Well-

Chris RyanHost30:22

... let's steer clear of late July, everybody's gone.

Chris RyanHost30:25

But I don't, I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonGuest30:26

Possibly, but also I think it goes back to that whole, like, you know, and this is what Sean was talking about a lot recently on The Big Pick, where, where it's just like, uh, pe- audiences will no longer just eat crap.

Chris RyanHost30:37

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest30:37

Right? They, they have had a decade plus of crap, of like w- we made whatever and we're gonna throw it at the wall and see what sticks.

Joanna RobinsonGuest30:46

And I, they're getting tired of it.

Chris RyanHost30:48

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest30:48

And they want things that are actually good, and that is slowing down.

Joanna RobinsonGuest30:52

That is slowing down the entire...

Joanna RobinsonGuest30:53

I mean, we're, are w- we're in post-peak TV now, right? We're in c- a contraction era.

Chris RyanHost30:58

Very much so.

Chris RyanHost30:58

I feel like we're in something of a A swoon.

Joanna RobinsonGuest31:01

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost31:02

I think, I think between, I think between, like, the feeling that something is gonna change with the merger-

Joanna RobinsonGuest31:09

Yes

Chris RyanHost31:09

...

Chris RyanHost31:09

I think getting out from under, like, the ex- extraordinary spending, but also, like, the weird, like, arms race that happened between all these upstart streamers.

Joanna RobinsonGuest31:21

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost31:21

I think everybody is kind of like, there's a l- a kind of show that people are happy to have on, but don't really feel the need to talk about, or at least they don't talk about it to me.

Chris RyanHost31:31

Like, people don't come up to me to talk about All Her Fault.

Chris RyanHost31:34

People don't, you know what I mean?

Joanna RobinsonGuest31:34

Right.

Joanna RobinsonGuest31:35

But, like, th- so that means, does that mean the battle is won, but we have to win the war differently, do you know?

Chris RyanHost31:42

Well, I, I guess it depends on what's your goal.

Chris RyanHost31:44

Like, is the goal to have something like Widows Bay that feels like actual, the closest thing we have to a watercooler show-

Joanna RobinsonGuest31:50

Chris RyanHost31:50

...

Chris RyanHost31:51

in the last couple of months? Is the goal just for everybody to, like, make money and keep people blively entertained-

Joanna RobinsonGuest31:58

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost31:58

... a la It's 1986 and my stories are on, and-

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:01

Right

Chris RyanHost32:01

... you know, if that's the case, like, that's why Chloe Sevigny's in Five Star Weekend, you know?

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:06

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost32:06

'Cause she's like, "It's a good paycheck.

Chris RyanHost32:08

My mom gets to watch it." Like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:09

Yeah

Chris RyanHost32:09

... people enjoy this stuff.

Chris RyanHost32:11

Like...

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:11

Is it, Netflix s- most of all is confusing to me 'cause, like, once again, we don't have Nielsen ratings, really-

Chris RyanHost32:17

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:17

... on these, in these places to track things.

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:18

We have to take their word for it in certain things, and every time I open up the Netflix homepage and look at the top 10 of what everyone is watching, and I'm like, "But people aren't talking about this."

Chris RyanHost32:30

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:30

You know?

Chris RyanHost32:30

Well, 'cause they're also watching it completely on their own schedule, in their own-

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:34

On their own schedule, but, like, but ba- also second screening, barely watching.

Chris RyanHost32:37

Right.

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:37

It's just noise that's on, you know? And so it's not permeating in any kind of way, and so that doesn't lend itself to the longevity or the loyalty that something like The Pit will-

Chris RyanHost32:47

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:47

... or, uh, otherwise, so.

Chris RyanHost32:48

Yeah, I mean, even with The Pit, I, you know, anecdotally knew people who would wait till there was five or six episodes stored up to start watching The Pit so that they could binge, you know what I mean?

Joanna RobinsonGuest32:57

Mm.

Chris RyanHost32:58

Like, I think that people's television viewing habits have changed so profoundly, and they've gotten so wise, like, you know, Fantasy avoiding Andor spoilers for, like, a year and a half is stunning to me.

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:12

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost33:12

That he was able to be like, "Man, season two of Andor was incredible," and I was like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:15

Have you heard of it? [laughs]

Chris RyanHost33:16

... you didn't, you didn't know what happened?

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:17

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost33:17

You didn't hear about, like, that big part?

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost33:20

And that's a guy who's really online, so I'm, I think people have gotten pretty good at being like, "I'll bookmark this and get to it when I wanna get to it."

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:28

Yeah, and then what you have to cr- I mean, whatever.

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:31

I'm n- I'm just telling them to make old-fashioned television as I always do, but, like, you have to create an urgent, a sense of urgency.

Chris RyanHost33:36

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:36

If I don't watch The Pit, then I don't get to talk to everyone about The Pit and have an opinion on The Pit.

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:40

And, like, what I hear so often from our listeners is, and this is, this is very as much true for House of R as anything else, is, like, uh, I wanna wait until the season's over and hear what everyone thinks whether or not they thought it was good before I even start it.

Chris RyanHost33:55

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:56

'Cause is this gonna fall off a cliff?

Chris RyanHost33:57

I think-

Joanna RobinsonGuest33:58

Am I gonna start something and it's gonna fall off a cliff, and I feel like I invested all this time and I wasted my time? So I'll just wait till everyone watches all of Lanterns before, for example, or Spider Noir or whatever it is, uh, and, and start it, and then they either don't get to it, or everyone's watching at their own speed.

Chris RyanHost34:15

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:15

You know what I mean? But, like, once you're three seasons into The Pit, is that still how you approach The Pit, you know?

Chris RyanHost34:21

That'll be really fascinating 'cause, like, also, like, will people be like, "Okay, I've seen all The Pit's tricks?"

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:28

Sure.

Chris RyanHost34:28

You know what I mean? Like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:29

Possibly

Chris RyanHost34:29

... uh-

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:30

But, like, if you make it through the soft, the potential sophomore slump, which The Pit did not experience, then it just becomes a show-

Chris RyanHost34:38

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:38

... everyone, increasingly everyone watches?

Chris RyanHost34:40

Right.

Chris RyanHost34:40

I mean, like, that, that's why we-

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:42

Remember television?

Chris RyanHost34:43

Yeah, I mean, but I think that-

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:44

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost34:44

... like, that's why s- a show like Succession is, like, more of a, a, a miracle than it is commonplace.

Joanna RobinsonGuest34:50

Right.

Chris RyanHost34:50

You know what I mean? That the show builds and builds and builds, is able to consistently surprise people with things that happen on screen that still feel very much part of the fabric of the story it's telling.

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:00

Right, narratively.

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:01

But feel like I gotta go home and watch Succession tonight because I don't want people to be making poor on the floor jokes at the office, and I don't know-

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:08

Yeah

Chris RyanHost35:08

... what they're talking about.

House of the Dragon Mid-Season Check-In35:11 – 41:13

Chris RyanHost35:11

Bleak summer, but we still have Ho- House of the Dragon for a couple more weeks.

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:14

Hot D, baby.

Chris RyanHost35:15

Uh, I did not share my, my feelings with you on, um, on Talk of the Thrones.

Chris RyanHost35:20

I thought this was, like, a really good episode.

Chris RyanHost35:22

I think not quite as, I didn't f- have the same feeling for it-

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:26

As three

Chris RyanHost35:26

... that I did about three.

Chris RyanHost35:28

This was a real, like, damn, ravens really be flying everywhere.

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:32

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost35:32

Because there was a lot of, like, "A raven has told me that this is happening," and I'm like, "These ravens," like, kind of almost like emails, you know? [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:39

Remember how last week you're like, "Why are people flying their dragons everywhere?" And this week you're like, "Ravens."

Chris RyanHost35:43

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:43

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:43

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:43

They should fly everywhere.

Chris RyanHost35:44

Um, you know, this was, I guess in some ways, like, a James Norton showcase episode.

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:49

That's 100% what it was.

Chris RyanHost35:50

And we also really, we got to see Daeron.

Chris RyanHost35:53

I, I liked, up until, like, even the frame before he was like, "Daeron, come here," you're like, "That's Daeron."

Joanna RobinsonGuest35:58

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:58

"I know that's Daeron.

Chris RyanHost35:59

You can't trick me twice."

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:01

When, when, uh, your guy Brasso from Andor, Leon Roxton, walks in-

Chris RyanHost36:05

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:05

... he's like, "My prince."

Chris RyanHost36:06

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:06

You know? Like-

Chris RyanHost36:06

That was cool.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:07

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:07

We wound up talking largely about James Norton's character, Ormund Hightower, and Daeron Targaryen-

Chris RyanHost36:13

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:13

... and their, and their...

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:15

I just think it's really exciting in the third season of a show that I've always quite liked to get characters that feel so urgent and exciting and new.

Chris RyanHost36:26

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:26

I am deeply emotionally invested in Daeron Targaryen for some reason.

Chris RyanHost36:30

Ooh.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:30

Like, I, I just think...

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:32

Did you, did you watch Bly Manor at all on Netflix?

Chris RyanHost36:35

No.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:35

Okay.

Chris RyanHost36:36

Is that D- is Daeron on Bly Manor?

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:37

That kid, that kid was on Bly Manor, and he played, like, a-

Chris RyanHost36:39

Wait, the Flanagan thing?

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:40

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost36:41

I must have.

Chris RyanHost36:42

I mean, I've seen, I think I've seen all the Flanagan shows.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:43

It was the second, it was the second one after Hill House.

Chris RyanHost36:45

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost36:45

I saw that.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost36:46

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:47

So there's two kids in that show, and he was one of them, and they get, like, possessed-

Chris RyanHost36:50

No way

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:50

... by a ghost at-

Chris RyanHost36:51

Yeah, of course

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:51

... a certain point, and they're so scary.

Chris RyanHost36:53

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:53

Yeah, the, like, Turn of the Screw, Henry James sort of thing.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:56

And so he's so, he was so creepy and so good in that.

Joanna RobinsonGuest36:59

And he's gonna be Link in the Zelda movie, which I have some questions about as well.

Chris RyanHost37:03

Oh.

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:03

But, like, this kid is someone to watch, and I just find him really, uh I, he's fantastic.

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:09

And, and that character is a character we don't really have, haven't had on House of the Dragon, is a mu- feels much more like a Thrones character than a House of the Dragon character.

Chris RyanHost37:18

I was gonna ask about that because the Ormund-Daeron stuff felt very well-written, but in a way that didn't feel entirely tethered to, like, text.

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:30

You know what's interesting is that episode was written by David Hancock, who you called out last season, uh, who was on The Crown.

Chris RyanHost37:36

Oh, yeah.

Chris RyanHost37:37

Yeah, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:37

And you called out, uh, last season as, like, an elevation in the language-

Chris RyanHost37:40

Yes

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:40

... and stuff like that.

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:41

And so I do think it's interesting that they brought him on for this, and he'll be on another episode this season, but brought him back to really, really introdu- introduce us to this kind of Crown-esque-

Chris RyanHost37:52

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:53

... storyline over here in Tumbleton.

Joanna RobinsonGuest37:54

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost37:54

I thought it, you know, for as repulsive as Ormund is, articulating like some anti-Targaryen sentiment-

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:00

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost38:00

...

Chris RyanHost38:00

in a, in a way that sort of would've, would fit with highborn Westerosi people, where-

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:08

Yeah

Chris RyanHost38:08

... they're just like, "I can't believe we're all dying because these incestuous maniacs-"

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:12

Yeah

Chris RyanHost38:12

... "are burning each o- everybody."

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:14

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost38:14

Um, although he also has some other, hotter, hotter takes [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:17

Yeah

Chris RyanHost38:18

... about it.

Chris RyanHost38:18

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:18

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:19

He does.

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:20

No, I mean, I think it's interesting because I don't know what this says about me, something that the House- House of the Dragon has always offered up to us is a complicated conflict where there are good points made on both sides.

Chris RyanHost38:32

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost38:32

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:33

And there isn't...

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:33

You know, you've always been Team Green, but there isn't supposed to be, like, a dyed-in-the-wool villain and a, a, a clear hero.

Chris RyanHost38:41

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:41

That's the...

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:42

It's trying to give you something emotionally complex.

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:45

And then all of a sudden, like, Ormund Hightower shows up, like, a villain, a real villain shows up, and I'm really...

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:52

And then maybe I'm just like, I'm just really excited.

Chris RyanHost38:54

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest38:54

And I'm like, oh, no, do I need basic, like, good versus evil in order to feel a certain way about Westeros? I don't know.

Chris RyanHost39:01

Yeah, they did some really nice fake-outs in this episode.

Chris RyanHost39:03

I thought Ormund, him bringing back the, uh, uh...

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:09

Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law

Chris RyanHost39:09

...

Chris RyanHost39:09

Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law.

Chris RyanHost39:11

Exactly.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:11

Also from Andor.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:12

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost39:12

Yeah, that's right.

Chris RyanHost39:13

And, uh, executing him.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:14

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost39:15

Or having Daeron pop his cherry.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:17

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost39:17

Ex- execution cherry.

Chris RyanHost39:19

I also thought that the Daemon-Rhaena scene was quite good.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost39:22

Um, and gave that character, like, a slightly different pitch to throw.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:28

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost39:28

Which I thought was, was welcome.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost39:30

You know, Daemon is, is the, my... one among my favorite reasons for watching the show, and Matt Smith's performance.

Chris RyanHost39:37

But having him just be like, "God," like, "what do I have to do to save this girl's life?"

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:42

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost39:42

Uh, a- and was just an excellent scene and an excellent, like, piece of plot mechanics, I thought.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:48

I think this season is already so much better than season two.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:52

And I'm curious to see if we feel like we continue to climb.

Chris RyanHost39:56

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:56

Or, you know, I don't know what the...

Joanna RobinsonGuest39:58

Like, even the people who reviewed this season I think only got the first four episodes.

Chris RyanHost40:01

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:02

So I don't know what the back half is gonna do.

Chris RyanHost40:03

It's, it...

Chris RyanHost40:04

I, I saw on Vulture, Vulture's recap-

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:08

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost40:08

... foregrounded the, like, I was told there would be battles sentiment.

Chris RyanHost40:13

It was kinda like, I thought after last season and all the throat-clearing, like, we were gonna get some real, like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:18

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost40:19

...

Chris RyanHost40:19

some action.

Chris RyanHost40:20

And I think that will inevitably be the second half of the season.

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:23

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost40:24

I don't know how much longer we're gonna have to wait, but...

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:28

I mean-

Chris RyanHost40:28

It's weird 'cause it's like I, I, I do know what's going to happen.

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:31

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost40:32

Um...

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:32

You, you read the wikis.

Chris RyanHost40:33

I read the wikis.

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:34

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:34

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost40:34

You, you know? And so I'm-

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:36

You love a wiki

Chris RyanHost40:36

...

Chris RyanHost40:36

I'm kind of, like...

Chris RyanHost40:39

It's, it's funny to not have any kind of, like, mystery to it, but also, like, a lot of anticipation for, for s- some of these sequences that I think are coming up.

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:47

But what's interesting about wiki reading or even Fire & Blood reading is that it doesn't...

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:51

You know, like, there's so little content in episodes three and four that are from the book.

Chris RyanHost40:56

Fire & Blood.

Chris RyanHost40:56

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest40:57

You know? And so, you know, our whole shtick of, like, let's explain what happened in the book versus the show, you have to, like, sorta think outside the box in terms of how you cover it.

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:05

And that's exciting for us 'cause we don't know.

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:07

We know what happens, but we don't really know how it happens.

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:11

And I can't wait to find out.

Franchise Futures: Thrones, Marvel, Dune & Beyond41:13 – 49:52

Chris RyanHost41:13

Do you think that... 'Cause, you know, we have House of the Dragon, we're gonna get another season of that.

Chris RyanHost41:17

Uh, we have, uh, young Egg on Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost41:21

Although not really full-blown maniac Targaryen yet.

Chris RyanHost41:25

And we might have Aegon's c- conquest-

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:29

Conquest

Chris RyanHost41:29

... as a movie.

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:29

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost41:31

If I had told you, uh, 15 years ago-

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:35

15, okay

Chris RyanHost41:36

... well, however long ago-

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:37

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost41:37

...

Chris RyanHost41:37

when Thrones debuted, 10, 15 years ago, that the Thrones project would be so Targaryen based-

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:45

Hmm

Chris RyanHost41:46

... would you have been like, "That makes sense because that's what a lot of the text is about"?

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:49

Well, no, only because George hadn't, uh, published Fire & Blood at that point.

Chris RyanHost41:54

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:55

And hadn't made it clear that, like, Targaryen history was something that he was interested in.

Joanna RobinsonGuest41:58

He had done Dunk and Egg, but, like, Dunk and Egg doesn't feel like a Targaryen story-

Chris RyanHost42:02

No, no

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:02

... at all.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:03

And then he had written...

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:04

He, he wrote this, like, wiki-esque book, um, you know, like a reference book almost, that has some of the Targaryen history in it.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:12

But, like, leaning into Fire & Blood, that being the only thing he's published since-

Chris RyanHost42:16

Ah, yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:16

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:16

the Dance of Dragons, which is insane.

Chris RyanHost42:18

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:19

Gives them the best material to adapt, you know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost42:21

Is there other, like, Stark or Lannister or-

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:24

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:25

Well, they were supposed to do the, like, Corlys conquering the world show.

Chris RyanHost42:30

That's right.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:31

Um, there's a, like, a Nymeria show.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:34

The...

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:34

Like, there's, there's been a lot of shows that they've floated.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:37

But, like, my understanding, immediately after Thrones ended, uh, there were people who wanted to do Dunk and Egg right away.

Chris RyanHost42:45

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:45

And HBO said, "We want dragons." So if you're gonna have dragons, you gotta have Targaryens, so that's where we are.

Chris RyanHost42:51

That's a...

Chris RyanHost42:52

I mean, I, I would love it if there was, like, another thing in development that was maybe a little bit less-

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:58

Oh, yeah

Chris RyanHost42:58

... blonde.

Joanna RobinsonGuest42:59

Well, you know, I think What really excites me about Duncan Idwal working as well, uh, Knight of the Seven Kingdoms working as well as it did, and getting Emmy nominated is, like, th- the possibility of the powers that be at HBO thinking, "Okay, where else in Westeros can we go?"

Chris RyanHost43:14

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:14

That feels a little smaller, but more approachable and exciting for people.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:18

And there's this, uh, you know, there's this play debuting, um, in Stratford I wanna say?

Chris RyanHost43:24

Oh.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:24

Or is it Oxford? I can't remember.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:25

They're doing a stage show called The Mad King, which, so that's Targaryen related.

Chris RyanHost43:29

More Targaryen related, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:29

But it's about, uh, the tourney at Harrenhal, which is, like, kinda what kicked off the whole Robert's Rebellion war.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:35

But, like, that's kind of, even though it's called The Mad King, not really a Targaryen story.

Chris RyanHost43:40

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:40

And so that's, like, pretty exciting that they're exploring that.

Chris RyanHost43:43

I wonder... [sighs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:43

Do you wanna go with Mallory and me to go see it?

Chris RyanHost43:45

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:46

Okay, great.

Chris RyanHost43:46

In w- in England?

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost43:47

I'll do anything in England.

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:48

Great.

Chris RyanHost43:48

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost43:49

Uh, and-

Joanna RobinsonGuest43:49

That's what I was told

Chris RyanHost43:50

...

Chris RyanHost43:52

I wonder whether or not... [sighs] I'm, I'm very curious to know, 'cause, like, you know, I, to the extent that I can tell, I think House of the Dragon is very well r- like, lots of people are watching it.

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:04

Yes.

Chris RyanHost44:06

I- you know, I'm always fascinated as I, as I see people greet the Avengers Doomsday concept art, which may or may not be official or whatever it was-

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:14

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost44:14

... with sort of, like, "Oh, okay, yeah." And reactions to the Russos' quotes and stuff like that being like, "You guys aren't done with this movie yet? This is coming out [laughs] in like two months."

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:24

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost44:25

Uh-

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:26

What does that tell you?

Chris RyanHost44:27

W- well, I wonder whether Thrones will ever go the way of, like, its, you know, it had its moment, and then it goes, or is this, like, how durable is this storytelling if George doesn't finish the books and/or suggests something that happens-

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:40

Well-

Chris RyanHost44:40

... after Jon Snow goes north?

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:42

Unlike Mar- like, what's your, what's your counter? So, so Marvel, you're like it had its moment, and now it's sort of running on fumes to a certain degree.

Chris RyanHost44:49

Yeah, I mean-

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:49

Although I'm very excited for the Paul Bettany Vision show.

Chris RyanHost44:51

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:51

Um, personally.

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:53

And also Wonder Man got a, got a great Emmy nomination.

Chris RyanHost44:55

Yahya Abdul-Mateen, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:56

Yah- Yahya, he's amazing in that show.

Chris RyanHost44:57

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:57

That was fantastic.

Joanna RobinsonGuest44:58

But I won't disagree that Marvel's running on fumes right now.

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:01

But, like, what's the world that ha- you know, Star Wars endured in its own way.

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:07

Like, so is it just we need a g- a galaxy to, a galaxy far, far away to play with? A Westeros, a galaxy far, far away-

Chris RyanHost45:15

Yeah, I think there's-

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:16

... a Middle Earth, something like that

Chris RyanHost45:16

... always going to be a fascination.

Chris RyanHost45:17

I mean, I think that you, we probably look back on this time period and be like, Dune was also quite dominant for i- eight years or however long it's gonna be.

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:25

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost45:25

Or actually, more like five or six years, right?

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:27

Yeah, pretty fast clip.

Chris RyanHost45:29

Um, you know, there, there are different pieces of IP that reign supreme at any given moment.

Chris RyanHost45:35

I think one thing that's marked a lot of these things is that they have to go away for a while for people to miss them, and that's something that I don't think that the people who own the rights to these things are willing to do.

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:45

Right, anymore.

Chris RyanHost45:46

They like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:47

They're used to b- used to.

Chris RyanHost45:48

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:48

But, like, well, I think, okay, so here's what I think the problem with Marvel versus, a problem with Marvel-

Chris RyanHost45:52

Okay

Joanna RobinsonGuest45:52

... versus, uh, Westeros, is that Marvel's intention is for everything to click together in place.

Chris RyanHost46:01

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:01

And so that means despite them saying, "Oh, Black Panther is so different," or, "This is so," you know, or, "Dr.

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:08

Strange is a horror," or something like that, there's a, you know, homogenous nature to Marvel that, that the Westeros space shows don't have to have.

Chris RyanHost46:17

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:17

And so the best example of that is Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, which does feel extremely tonally different-

Chris RyanHost46:23

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:23

...

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:23

if not formally, not f- well, formally different than, than, uh, Thrones did.

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:28

Hot D is trying to be more Thrones-like.

Chris RyanHost46:32

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:32

But if we're thinking of an Aegon Con- Conquest movie, and a Mad King play, and a comedy like Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, it just means that Westeros is a place where you can tell all kinds of stories, especially if you're not trying to make them click together.

Chris RyanHost46:45

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:46

You know?

Chris RyanHost46:46

I mean, I, it's, there's also, like, something fascinating about the fact that for a lot of these stories or a lot of these franchises, they do have, like, a demarcated, like, "This, and this is when the story ends." Like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest46:57

Hmm

Chris RyanHost46:58

... not only is Thrones not finished, but we have an idea.

Chris RyanHost47:01

We, we know, like, they won.

Chris RyanHost47:03

The [laughs] you know-

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:03

One of the-

Chris RyanHost47:03

... like, the [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:04

One of my favorite reactions to the episode two of this season of Hot D when Rhaenyra, you know, takes the King's Landing.

Chris RyanHost47:11

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:12

They're like, "All this for Bran to wind up on the throne?" [laughs]

Chris RyanHost47:15

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:15

You know, like, all of this fuss and then Bran's gonna sit on the throne?

Chris RyanHost47:19

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:19

So, but it, but I don't, you know, obviously Hot D is not as, um, uh, big as Thrones was at, at its peak.

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:26

Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is much beloved, but also a much smaller show.

Chris RyanHost47:29

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:29

So definitely the ending of Thrones and House of the Dragon season one not, not quite scratching that itch for people, has shrunk the...

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:38

It's not like the audience has grown.

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:39

It, it has contracted.

Chris RyanHost47:40

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:40

But I, but it's still, like, a very healthy audience, you know?

Chris RyanHost47:43

Oh, yeah.

Chris RyanHost47:43

And I think the, like, one thing I sometimes don't really understand until I, like, leave Los Angeles is how many people out there are like, "Oh, I've read those books like 10 times."

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:54

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost47:54

Like, you know, I, I know you and Mallory have, but I-

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:57

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost47:57

... don't know sometimes, like-

Joanna RobinsonGuest47:59

Now you know her tab

Chris RyanHost47:59

...

Chris RyanHost47:59

when I'm at a bar-

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:00

Yeah

Chris RyanHost48:00

... and somebody's like, "Well, I've, I've read, I've read it.

Chris RyanHost48:02

I might just reread it to get ready for this," or whatever.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:05

Right.

Chris RyanHost48:05

You know what I mean? Like, it's, it is, it is a fandom that is pretty profound.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:09

It's true, but, like, that was also true of Wheel of Time.

Chris RyanHost48:12

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:12

And then that just didn't stick.

Chris RyanHost48:13

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:13

You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost48:14

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:14

But, but I think Dune is a, is a good comp for that in terms of, like, people will just read Dune over and over and over and over and over again.

Chris RyanHost48:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost48:21

I mean, Dune is almost the inversion of Marvel because they were like, "We have a filmmaker who's very special."

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:27

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost48:28

"And because of that filmmaker, this cast will do it."

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:31

Well-

Chris RyanHost48:31

"And we are gonna make this happen in a very condensed period of time."

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:34

Right.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:34

But also Denis is like, I'm, is, is not saying, "I'm gonna adapt every Dune book."

Chris RyanHost48:39

No.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:39

He's like, "I'm doing the first two."

Chris RyanHost48:40

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:41

"And then we're done."

Chris RyanHost48:41

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:42

"That's what we're doing.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:42

We're doing a trilogy."

Chris RyanHost48:43

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:43

And, and will Warner Brothers say okay? Well, they did, right?

Chris RyanHost48:46

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:47

We got the Bene Gesserit show, which did not work.

Chris RyanHost48:49

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:49

You know? So.

Chris RyanHost48:51

Um, are you excited for Dune 3?

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:53

Hugely excited.

Chris RyanHost48:53

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost48:54

I'm excited.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:54

And I mean, I, I love, I love The Odyssey, and we're gonna cover it extensively on House of R. You're gonna cover it on the Big Pick.

Joanna RobinsonGuest48:59

But, like, The Odyssey, I consider The Odyssey genre IP.

Chris RyanHost49:04

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonGuest49:05

You know?

Chris RyanHost49:05

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonGuest49:05

So I think the O- I think Project Hail Mary, The Odyssey, and Dune 3 being, like, the one, two, three of this y- tentpoles of this year is good news for quality sort of-

Chris RyanHost49:16

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonGuest49:17

... genre adaptation.

Chris RyanHost49:18

Yeah, but they, uh, increasingly seem to be big screen, you know?

Joanna RobinsonGuest49:22

I-

Chris RyanHost49:22

It's just-

Joanna RobinsonGuest49:23

I know