All The News Out of Comic Con, ‘The Agency’ Season 2, and ‘House of the Dragon’ S3E6

Jul 28, 2026 · 1 hr 24 min · 11 segments

Chris and Andy react to the news that LeBron will be coming to the Sixers (0:40). Then they break down all of the news that came out of ComicCon over the weekend including David Jonsson being announced as the new Black Panther (10:42) and the trailers for ‘Lanterns’ (30:20), ‘Neuromancer’ (35:12), and ‘Blade Runner 2029’ (39:34). Then they talk about where ‘The Agency’ succeeded and failed in its second season (45:44) before recapping the latest episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ (01:09:24). Subscribe to the [⁠Ringer TV YouTube channel⁠](https://www.youtube.com/@Ringer-TV) here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Engineering and Editing: Jamie Yukich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit [podcastchoices.com/adchoices](https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices)

Speakers: Andy GreenwaldHostChris RyanHost

Top entities: Ryan Gosling×12 Avengers: The Kang Dynasty×10 LeBron James×14 Philadelphia Eagles×5 The Agency×9

Carvana – Queen Carvania sells her chariot0:00 – 0:30

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Boar’s Head – Back-to-School Lunches0:30 – 1:16

Chris RyanHost0:30

This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head.

Chris RyanHost0:32

It may have been years ago, but I still remember the feeling of unpacking my kids' lunch boxes after school and to find nothing left.

Chris RyanHost0:39

As a parent, that's a total win.

Chris RyanHost0:40

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Chris RyanHost0:47

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Chris RyanHost0:52

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Chris RyanHost0:57

You'll be proud of what you pack, they'll be happy to finish it.

Chris RyanHost1:02

Fuel their school day with the premium choice, Boar's Head.

Chris RyanHost1:05

For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com/backtoschool, or head to your local deli counter.

Chris RyanHost1:12

[drum music]

Show open & agenda1:16 – 1:57

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16

[rock music] I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21

Stand up and walk, now.

Chris RyanHost1:24

Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost1:25

My name is Chris Ryan.

Chris RyanHost1:27

I am an editor at theringer.com, and joining me in the studio, just a kid from Akron, it's Andy Greenwald.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:37

I, I thought you'd start there.

Chris RyanHost1:38

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:38

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:38

Despite the weekend.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:41

Anything you'd like to, to get off your chest?

Chris RyanHost1:43

We are gonna talk about a bunch of the trailers coming out of Comic-Con.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:47

We're gonna talk about the second season of The Agency, the most recent episode of House of the Dragon.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:52

Okay.

Chris RyanHost1:53

But I thought we could talk a little bit about LeBron James joining the Philadelphia 76ers.

LeBron to the Sixers & Philly sports riff1:57 – 8:01

Chris RyanHost1:57

I had a couple of questions for you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:58

You mean LeBron James coming home?

Chris RyanHost2:00

I mean, if home is-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:01

He's finally coming home

Chris RyanHost2:02

... is a Tribeca condominium that he'll be living in.

Chris RyanHost2:04

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:04

I...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:05

You think he's gonna do...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:06

Is he officially gonna do the JJ Redick?

Chris RyanHost2:08

Yeah, but you know what? That's the fucking dream, dude.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:10

That is the dream-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:11

I know

Chris RyanHost2:11

... is to commute-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:12

I know.

Chris RyanHost2:12

I mean, I would personally live in Philly and go to New York to-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:16

Sure

Chris RyanHost2:16

... to work and play, but however you wanna handle it, like, I'd, I'd love to have two places like that.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:22

It's true.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:23

It...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:23

We can't fault him for that.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:24

Who, who among us didn't start in Philly and then live in New York?

Chris RyanHost2:27

And you know who's not gonna care? Philadelphians.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:30

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost2:30

No, honestly, like, you know, the, we have our sensitivities.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:33

Uh, we can get our backs up a little bit, but if LeBron James wants to play for the Sixers, he's welcome to, to live, live in New York City.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:42

So, so let's, let's talk about this.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:43

This was a...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:44

I received a text message from our buddy, Zach Baron.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:48

Uh, I believe LOL was included in the link that he sent.

Chris RyanHost2:52

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:52

And-

Chris RyanHost2:52

8:30 AM Pacific Time-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:53

Yes

Chris RyanHost2:54

... on Friday.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:54

I was, I was, I was dropping off a child at camp.

Chris RyanHost2:56

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:57

And, uh, actually stopped about three blocks short of camp, told her to walk the rest of the way-

Chris RyanHost3:01

No, you didn't

Andy GreenwaldHost3:02

... because I had work to do in the content mines.

Chris RyanHost3:05

See, the thing is, is that I have to tell you something.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:07

Yeah, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:08

This is the, this is just us.

Chris RyanHost3:11

I've received more texts from you-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:13

Yeah

Chris RyanHost3:13

... about, like, Ben Van Sumeren than I have about LeBron coming.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:16

First of all, it's Van Sumeren.

Chris RyanHost3:17

And [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:18

He recently signed with the Buffalo Bills, I believe.

Chris RyanHost3:19

He is a ba- he was a deep, deep bench backup for the Eagles last season.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:24

First of all, he was going to be our starting fullback-

Chris RyanHost3:26

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:26

... until a ruinous injury on I think the first play of the season.

Chris RyanHost3:29

But you, you, you've expressed way more excitement about way more random things in Philadelphia-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:34

Yeah

Chris RyanHost3:34

... sports.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:34

Right.

Chris RyanHost3:34

And I feel like you've sent two texts about LeBron-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:37

Well, I, it's not my-

Chris RyanHost3:37

... and then not responded to a lot of my memes.

Chris RyanHost3:40

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:40

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:41

I'd like to apologize to you about the memes.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:44

They were excellent.

Chris RyanHost3:45

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:45

You also made a really, really sterling appearance on our all-parents' favorite television channel, MSNBC...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:52

I'm sorry, MS Now.

Chris RyanHost3:53

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:53

The exed MSNBC Twitter.

Chris RyanHost3:54

Shout out to Haley Jackson.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:56

That was a delightful segment.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:57

I hope people-

Chris RyanHost3:57

She's a real one, from Yardley.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:58

She was really representing.

Chris RyanHost4:00

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:00

So you've been great, and I've been enjoying all of your content and memes.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:04

I think that I believe in the adage of-

Chris RyanHost4:06

I was also on the Zach Low show for, on the Ringer Podcast Network.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:09

Was he from Yardley?

Chris RyanHost4:10

No. [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:10

So.

Chris RyanHost4:11

He's not.

Chris RyanHost4:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:12

Uh, uh, think, think global, act local.

Chris RyanHost4:14

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:14

You know what I mean? I think that this is operating on such a higher level than, than what I can comment on.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:20

I think it's so crazy.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:22

I think it's ludicrous.

Chris RyanHost4:23

So this is a little bit of-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:24

I laugh with delight

Chris RyanHost4:24

... indie rock snobbery on your part.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:26

Absolutely no-

Chris RyanHost4:27

When it's your discovery, when it's, when it's a backup fullback-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:30

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost4:30

... you're like, "Oh, that's cool.

Chris RyanHost4:31

I found him." But when it's LeBron James, you're like, "Oh, I'll let the other ones go to Olivia Rodrigo." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:36

You have to understand that I have spent 25 year- four years? How many seasons has he been playing in the NBA?

Chris RyanHost4:43

Uh, since it was three, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost4:44

Since, since two or three.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:46

So I've spent all of that time thinking about him as much as I think about, um, the planet of Jupiter.

Chris RyanHost4:53

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:53

Like, it exists.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:54

It's fucking enormous.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:56

Do you know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost4:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:57

Like, you can't make your solar system without it, but it has had nothing to do with me and my life.

Chris RyanHost5:02

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:03

So all of a sudden, he's moving to Yardley, so to speak.

Chris RyanHost5:07

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:08

And it's just making me laugh.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:10

I think it's great.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:11

I think it's exciting.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:12

I am super in on this.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:13

I am not...

Andy GreenwaldHost5:14

Shout out to Sheel Kapadia, who's debuted a new voice about a guy who's not into this.

Chris RyanHost5:18

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:18

That's not me.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:20

I'm not that guy, being like, "We're not getting prime LeBron."

Chris RyanHost5:23

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost5:23

There's been a lot of-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:23

I think this is hilarious

Chris RyanHost5:25

... a lot of characters have emerged out of this, 'cause Zach, Zach Low-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:28

Yeah

Chris RyanHost5:28

... introduced Stat Guy, who's n- doesn't know if there's enough ball, and is going through, like, all the, the WARP and why it's not gonna work.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:36

I just think you have to...

Andy GreenwaldHost5:37

From the psychology of a deeply committed and emotionally disturbed Philadelphia sports fan, who over the last few years has really pioneered a new realm of f- living and dying with every game, but not watching them, this is just, what can one do? This is hilarious.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:53

And I, I like the team, and the fact that it is a basketball fit, and the fact that someone is going to show up into this completely decade-long dysfunction in the locker room and be like, "Actually, I'm an adult professional.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:04

I know how to win"-

Chris RyanHost6:05

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost6:06

... is thrilling.

Chris RyanHost6:06

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:06

Yeah.But also protect the kids at all costs.

Chris RyanHost6:09

Protect which kids?

Andy GreenwaldHost6:10

Tyrese and VJ.

Chris RyanHost6:11

Those guys are psyched to get to play with LeBron.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:13

I know, so I'm not-

Chris RyanHost6:13

Yeah [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:14

... upset.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:14

I don't think he's gonna come in and be like, "I need you to trade both of those guys for Kevin Love's corpse now."

Chris RyanHost6:18

He's not gonna do that.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:20

I don't...

Andy GreenwaldHost6:20

I said he's not gonna do that.

Chris RyanHost6:21

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:21

I...

Andy GreenwaldHost6:21

Why? W- wait, wait, wait.

Chris RyanHost6:22

He's a middle-aged man.

Chris RyanHost6:23

I just want everybody to know we're excited, and I think The Watch-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:26

Yeah, I-

Chris RyanHost6:27

One thing we could do-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:28

Yes

Chris RyanHost6:29

...

Chris RyanHost6:29

in this coming NBA season, since there are 34-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:32

Okay

Chris RyanHost6:33

... apparently 34 nationally televised Sixers games.

Chris RyanHost6:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:36

[laughs] Did Adam Silver have this, he have, like, the different charts?

Chris RyanHost6:39

He was waiting, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:40

And he had the button?

Chris RyanHost6:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:41

That's cool.

Chris RyanHost6:41

Um, I think we could make Sixers watch part of The Watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:45

We could do that.

Chris RyanHost6:45

But that would involve you doing some tape work, though.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:48

L- I, I will say this: I am extremely excited.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:52

I think it's gonna be an interesting...

Andy GreenwaldHost6:54

W- w- what's Zach's character about not sure if there's enough ball?

Chris RyanHost6:57

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:57

I'm not sure if there's enough me this fall, considering fall is traditionally a time of busier work-

Chris RyanHost7:03

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost7:03

... office and travel.

Chris RyanHost7:03

Yes, I know, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:04

Um, the Philadelphia Eagles, Ben Van Sumeren's former team, will start playing.

Chris RyanHost7:08

This is what I was gonna talk to you about.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:09

And Chris, my beloved Tottenham Hotspur is kicking things off from their return to the top of the table late August.

Chris RyanHost7:17

[laughs] If you pivoted from Sixers, LeBron-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:19

[laughs] That would be awesome

Chris RyanHost7:20

... to Tottenham, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:21

I'm just saying, it's gonna be a busy-

Chris RyanHost7:22

There's gonna be a moment in October where-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:24

Yeah

Chris RyanHost7:24

...

Chris RyanHost7:24

if things go according to plan-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:26

Okay

Chris RyanHost7:26

... we have Red October-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:27

Yeah

Chris RyanHost7:28

... we have Eagles back, we have LeBron on the Sixers, all happening at once.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:32

And, like, the Studio S two, right? Like, are, are you gonna bring Steve-

Chris RyanHost7:35

Let's just put that stuff aside for a second.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:37

[laughs] Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:37

Okay.

Chris RyanHost7:38

Just focus.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:38

All right.

Chris RyanHost7:39

We, if we were ever gonna do a Philly live show, it should be then.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:43

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:44

Y- you're putting me on...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:45

Yeah, sure.

Chris RyanHost7:46

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:47

Let's...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:48

Can we talk mostly about sports?

Chris RyanHost7:49

Yes, of course.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:50

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:50

All right.

Chris RyanHost7:50

No, we're just-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:51

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost7:51

Everybody's gonna wanna listen to Studio S two tapes.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:54

Live.

Chris RyanHost7:55

Um, Andy, this-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:56

It, it's very exciting

Chris RyanHost7:56

...

Chris RyanHost7:57

this is...

Chris RyanHost7:57

We can, we can leave sports there.

Chris RyanHost7:59

Let's l- let's leave the games behind-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:01

All right

Mailbag & housekeeping8:01 – 9:06

Chris RyanHost8:01

... and talk about the, the art and business of, of entertainment.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:05

Hm.

Chris RyanHost8:05

Um, you can always hit us up at thewatch@spotify.com.

Chris RyanHost8:09

Uh, we are gonna do a mailbag episode next week.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:11

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:12

Recording it tomorrow, so if you have any last-minute questions.

Chris RyanHost8:14

But so far, thank you so much for your questions.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:15

Have they been good?

Chris RyanHost8:16

They have been.

Chris RyanHost8:17

Um, there have been several people-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:19

Chris RyanHost8:19

... who've written in to say, "S- dear sir," to you, "thank you for l-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:25

Chris RyanHost8:25

... for giving me space to also feel like The Odyssey wasn't all as good as i- everybody's making it sound."

Andy GreenwaldHost8:32

I...

Andy GreenwaldHost8:32

Did I say that?

Chris RyanHost8:33

You had some...

Chris RyanHost8:34

You were a little bit more measured, and you were like, "That was pretty goofy in places."

Andy GreenwaldHost8:38

It fucking was.

Chris RyanHost8:39

Okay, good.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:39

I stand by that.

Chris RyanHost8:40

Th- there's five guys in the world who are like, "Thanks, brother.

Chris RyanHost8:43

That really made me feel seen." [laughs] Um, so-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:46

I, I'm not for everyone, but I'm for someone

Chris RyanHost8:48

...

Chris RyanHost8:48

if you hear this on Monday, and you send in your email tonight-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:51

Chris RyanHost8:51

... we may get it for t- tomorrow's mailbag.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:53

Okay.

Chris RyanHost8:53

So the deadline is coming.

Chris RyanHost8:55

Uh, thewatchpod_ @ Instagram.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:57

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:58

Uh, ringer-tv on YouTube, where we are rocking and rolling with the Prestige TV podcast.

Chris RyanHost9:03

And, uh, today, like I said, some, some news at the top.

Comic-Con recap & Marvel news9:07 – 28:27

Chris RyanHost9:07

There's a bunch of Comic-Con stuff.

Chris RyanHost9:08

We did not go.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:09

Did, did you regret not going?

Chris RyanHost9:10

No. Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:12

You said that real fast.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:13

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost9:13

Here's the thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:14

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:15

I like San Diego.

Chris RyanHost9:16

San Diego is one of my favorite music towns.

Chris RyanHost9:18

Some of my favorite bands have come from San Diego.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:20

Drive Like Jehu, right?

Chris RyanHost9:21

Drive Like Jehu, Hot Snakes.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:22

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost9:23

Some bands without John Reis in them.

Chris RyanHost9:25

Uh, Antioch Arrow, et cetera.

Chris RyanHost9:27

But-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:29

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost9:29

... um, I don't wanna go to Comic-Con.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:32

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:32

I don't think it has...

Chris RyanHost9:33

It doesn't really have...

Chris RyanHost9:34

I, that's a real, like...

Chris RyanHost9:36

But it just goes on YouTube pretty much, like, the next day, so, like, why would I, why would I go to San Diego to do it?

Andy GreenwaldHost9:41

See, we, we went together once.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:43

I went in 2004.

Chris RyanHost9:45

I think I went as your, like, bag man.

Chris RyanHost9:46

I was like, you were going to interview the Banshee cast or something.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:49

Yeah, I was.

Chris RyanHost9:50

And I was just like, "I'll just sleep on your floor or whatever."

Andy GreenwaldHost9:52

No, no, no, no, this is a famous story that we don't need to revisit.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:54

We had two beds.

Chris RyanHost9:55

That's cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:56

And, uh, but that was the first time I saw-

Chris RyanHost9:58

Did you take both of them? [laughs] Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:00

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:01

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost10:02

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:02

Yeah, I didn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost10:02

I, I'm sorry, that wasn't contradicting that you were on the floor.

Chris RyanHost10:05

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:05

I just wanted you to remember.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:07

No, that was when I l- that was the first time I observed in person your, um, podcast sleeping regimen.

Chris RyanHost10:13

No, that's not true.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:14

It's not?

Chris RyanHost10:14

You saw it when we went and interviewed Mogwai in Chinatown in New York City.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:18

No, no, no.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:18

Yes, that was the other time we shared a hotel room.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:21

But I don't think...

Andy GreenwaldHost10:23

We didn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost10:24

Podcast didn't exist then.

Chris RyanHost10:25

Oh, when I put pods in.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:26

Yes.

Chris RyanHost10:26

Yeah, and then I put my arms like this.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:27

You were like Nosferatu.

Chris RyanHost10:28

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:29

You just lay back slowly on your bed.

Chris RyanHost10:31

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:31

It was unbelievable.

Chris RyanHost10:32

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:33

But, uh, yeah, that...

Andy GreenwaldHost10:35

Oh yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:35

Well, one day we'll talk about that.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:36

Mogwai has their big anniversary concert, right?

Chris RyanHost10:39

I think I'm not going.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:39

Well, 'cause we...

Andy GreenwaldHost10:40

That, that's another foundational story.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:41

We tell that one less than we tell the train spotting one.

Chris RyanHost10:44

Yeah-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:44

But the-

Chris RyanHost10:44

... somehow Mogwai's not as grabby.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:46

It's still Scottish, though.

Chris RyanHost10:47

Yeah, it's true.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:47

Okay, we'll circle back to that.

Chris RyanHost10:48

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:48

So Comic-Con, we went once.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:50

We have not been back.

Chris RyanHost10:50

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost10:51

That was a long time ago.

Chris RyanHost10:52

Um, so what do you have here? You have our, obviously Marvel-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:56

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost10:57

... kinda singing for their supper.

Chris RyanHost10:58

Like, there was a moment here where I think after that Doomsday trailer-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:02

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost11:03

...

Chris RyanHost11:03

Marvel fans, I think, will ride or die with this, with this crew no matter what.

Chris RyanHost11:08

There, there is a contingent of people who are always gonna be present for this.

Chris RyanHost11:11

The projections for Brand New Day are already, like, astronomical.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:14

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:14

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:14

Like, above, I think above Odyssey.

Chris RyanHost11:15

Like, it's, it's gonna make a boatload of money.

Chris RyanHost11:18

But in terms of, like, where things are going, I think there was a little bit of skepticism, it's fair to say-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:23

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost11:23

... after that Doomsday trailer.

Chris RyanHost11:24

So I think they had a lot they had to get accomplished at their presentation, so we're gonna talk a little bit about that.

Chris RyanHost11:30

There were a couple of TV things-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:32

Yeah

Chris RyanHost11:32

...

Chris RyanHost11:32

I wanted to talk about.

Chris RyanHost11:33

Uh, but we can, we can stick on Marvel.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:35

You wanna start with Marvel?

Chris RyanHost11:37

Yeah, because there's a few things here that I thought were cool.

Chris RyanHost11:40

For one, the number one, obviously, was I think the big headline was that David Johnson, who, um, industry watchers, and I mean capital I industry watchers, will recognize as Gus from the early seasons of Industry-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:52

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost11:52

... is gonna play the fucking Black Panther.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:55

Yes.

Chris RyanHost11:55

He is going to be the kid from the B-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:58

Two sets, yeah

Chris RyanHost11:58

...

Chris RyanHost11:58

the end of BP2-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:00

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost12:01

... grown up.

Chris RyanHost12:02

Now, uh, eagle-eyed viewers and watchers-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:06

Chris RyanHost12:07

... and listeners or whatever have pointed out that that does seem a bit- ... difficult to do in terms of like how much does he age? Like when, what, what timeline are these movies taking place in?

Andy GreenwaldHost12:16

Right.

Chris RyanHost12:17

And there's speculation that this will be a post whatever Doomsday is.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:22

I, well I believe they've already announced the release date for this Black Panther thing.

Chris RyanHost12:26

28.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:26

It's 28, which would be not only post-Doomsday, it would be post-Secret Wars.

Chris RyanHost12:29

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:30

So it would be in Kevin Feige's beloved sacred timeline restoration.

Chris RyanHost12:34

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:34

Where there would be only one.

Chris RyanHost12:36

Yeah, but Shuri is still in it.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:38

The BP3?

Chris RyanHost12:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:39

Sure.

Chris RyanHost12:40

Because she's in the Doomsday trailer as Black Panther, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost12:42

Yes.

Chris RyanHost12:43

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:44

I- If this was the hill that you died on-

Chris RyanHost12:46

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost12:46

... where you were just like, "There can only be one legitimate Black Panther."

Chris RyanHost12:50

I am just...

Chris RyanHost12:50

What, how, what did you think of the casting?

Andy GreenwaldHost12:52

Well, I think the casting is exciting.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:53

I think the, the, the larger conversation is definitely one of what are we doing here in terms of Marvel? Black Panther is a little bit, um, carved out of that conversation-

Chris RyanHost13:03

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost13:03

... because if Ryan Coogler wants to make Black Panther 3, then they should make that movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:08

He is on the extremely short list of writer-directors, filmmakers who move every needle: artistic, commercial, certainly box office.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:18

Um, and if this is what he wants to do with all of the, uh, goodwill and industry cred and, and basically market-moving power that he, he has accrued since Sinners, which was an incredible, you know, bet on himself famously, uh, good.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:34

I'm interested.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:34

You know, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:35

He would not come back to do a movie he didn't wanna do even if the fanboys in that room are screaming that trilogies need to be completed or whatever.

Chris RyanHost13:42

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:43

And I think what we know from the sadly scrapped original script of Black Panther 2 when Chadwick Boseman was still with us and was going to be starring in the movie, that was going to be a father-son movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:54

So this is clearly the story or the, the kernel of the story that Coogler wants to, to tell.

Chris RyanHost14:01

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:01

And so this will give him a chance to do it, and I guess I read also some reporting that this casting was done months ago, that they've been quietly building towards this and planning it, and this probably aligns with the timeline where, um, Denzel Washington, either he said it or someone said it that he's gonna be in this movie.

Chris RyanHost14:17

Denzel is in this movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:17

And now it's been, that's also been confirmed.

Chris RyanHost14:19

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:19

So the...

Andy GreenwaldHost14:22

Unlike some of the other things that they've announced, which we're gonna pivot to, if a filmmaker has a story he wants to tell, that's exciting.

Chris RyanHost14:29

I wish that the same artistic vision-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:35

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost14:35

... applied to other movies.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:36

Yeah, this is what I wanna say.

Chris RyanHost14:37

Uh, so just on Johnson really quick, not only is he great in Industry-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:41

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost14:41

...

Chris RyanHost14:41

he was, he has been a guy over the last two years specifically who is an old school like when you were watching it, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:50

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost14:50

...

Chris RyanHost14:50

if I'm watching a movie with, with like an- another person or in a theater or with my wife or something like that, routinely gets at.

Chris RyanHost14:57

Like, uh, th- they'll be like, "Who, who was that?"

Andy GreenwaldHost14:59

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost15:00

"That guy was awesome."

Andy GreenwaldHost15:01

He was in Romulus anyways.

Chris RyanHost15:01

And he, he was incredible in Romulus.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:04

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost15:04

And he's awesome in The Long Walk, um, with Cooper Hoffman.

Chris RyanHost15:07

So he has obviously got something.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:10

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost15:10

And I think it's interesting the qualities that I think he shares with Boseman as a performer, like a kind of centeredness.

Chris RyanHost15:17

Um, but then there are some differences.

Chris RyanHost15:19

You know, he has like a little bit of like, um, [tsking] uh, I don't know, like a, maybe a perhaps like an unknowability.

Chris RyanHost15:27

I don't know.

Chris RyanHost15:28

I don't know how-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:28

Yes

Chris RyanHost15:28

... to describe it because Gus was such a distinct character in Industry and then since then, like, he's played a, you know, uh, a synthetic person-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:35

Yeah

Chris RyanHost15:36

...

Chris RyanHost15:36

in, in Romulus.

Chris RyanHost15:37

His Long Walk character is awesome.

Chris RyanHost15:38

But in any case, um-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:41

Well, but I think it-

Chris RyanHost15:41

I think it's great casting

Andy GreenwaldHost15:42

...

Andy GreenwaldHost15:42

I, I think what's i- interesting about him is that he's one of the rarer cohort of performers who can signal to a camera that what he's doing and what he's thinking are different.

Chris RyanHost15:52

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:52

But both are incredibly, incredibly alive and active.

Chris RyanHost15:54

That's a really good way of putting it.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:55

And, and I think that he, that adds something.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:57

I mean, he's gonna be in a mask for a lot of the movie, but that adds something different to the character and maybe fits into what I could imagine be a theme about teen- not teenage, he's 32, but like rebellion-

Chris RyanHost16:09

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost16:09

... or rebelling against a legend or resisting a mantle of some kind.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:12

I think that's an interesting story to tell.

Chris RyanHost16:14

And you know, they have a situation where like immediately they, they, when they, they announce this, they tell the story of casting Johnson, and it's gonna be shot on film-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:24

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost16:24

...

Chris RyanHost16:25

I, I'm sure in, in 65 or 70 or some great format.

Chris RyanHost16:29

Um, and y- you know, Denzel is in it, and you are-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:33

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost16:33

... you, you immediately start thinking like, "Can they not move like this for all the other, all the movies?" You know what I mean? Like, they...

Chris RyanHost16:39

And this was sort of I know the original promise of a certain era of Marvel where it was gonna be-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:45

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost16:45

... and, and Star Wars to some extent where it's gonna be like we're gonna get great filmmakers-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:48

The R23

Chris RyanHost16:48

... and tell great stories, and we're gonna merge this amazing intellectual property with their artistic vision.

Chris RyanHost16:55

And, and it just seems like that whole experiment is basically a failure.

Chris RyanHost17:00

Uh, uh, eh, whether it's people leaving projects like Lord and Miller on Solo or-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:05

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost17:06

... you know, Edgar Wright on Ant-Man and, and/or ar- arriving at this kind of flattened-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:13

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost17:13

... pre-vis.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:14

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost17:14

We just need people to get this from A to B.

Chris RyanHost17:17

We can't really take too many chances or ever do anything pretty provocative.

Chris RyanHost17:21

You know, Thunderbolts being like, a, an exception to the rule maybe.

Chris RyanHost17:25

So I, I just, I, I guess weird- weirdly it was bittersweet just 'cause I was like, "Why can't you guys make like badass, like, Avengers movies this way?" I guess maybe that's like a lot of, of moving pieces, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:36

A lot of moving pieces.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:37

Uh, I think it's a couple things.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:38

One, I do wanna just have a moment to do like a, a naval burial at sea for a take I was proud of, which was that all of Doomsday and Secret Wars was just part of a long game to reboot the Marvel Universe where Michael B. Jordan is Black Panther.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:51

Um-

Chris RyanHost17:52

That's interesting

Andy GreenwaldHost17:53

...

Andy GreenwaldHost17:53

I don't think he wants to do that.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:54

Um, he might show up in Secret Wars, who knows? But, uh, so I just wanna like salute that, you know, drape, drape that coffin in the flag, throw it out in the boat.

Chris RyanHost18:02

I think it's great that Michael B. Jordan does not need to show up-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:05

Me too

Chris RyanHost18:05

...

Chris RyanHost18:05

in Secret Wars.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:05

Me too.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:06

Um-

Chris RyanHost18:06

Like, as like a...

Chris RyanHost18:07

He doesn't need that in his career.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:08

I completely agree with you.

Chris RyanHost18:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:10

Um, don't get me started on the Adam Driver as Mister Sinister rumors that are bubbling up right now as well.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:16

Um- So I think it's always worth contextualizing what you're saying, that all ...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:24

There is a legitimate, there's a legitimacy to that strain of thinking, to those rumors that like I, I know, uh, some of it's confirmed, but I'm not, I'm not breaking news here.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:34

But like Kathy Kennedy in her tenure at head of Lucasfilm literally did meet with everyone.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:39

You know, there was the Vince Gilligan meeting-

Chris RyanHost18:40

David Fincher

Andy GreenwaldHost18:40

...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:40

there was many David Fincher meetings, there was Soderbergh meetings.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:43

Um, Kevin Feige I'm sure has had similar meetings with the, the, the best of the best.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:48

And what they discover is that there can only really be one No Adam driver of these cars.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:54

They are too expensive, they are too difficult to maneuver.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:58

And if a filmmaker like David Fincher comes in and is like, "Cool, I am, you know, I, I, I wanna do the Submariner movie, but I get final cut and I do whatever I want," that's just not gonna work in their timeline.

Chris RyanHost19:08

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:08

So that's why you end up hiring, in best case scenarios, like really, really solid workers who can deliver, like what the Russo brothers were when they took them from TV.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:17

Um, or what we're about to get with, with Shawn Levy.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:20

It's just not, it's just not consistent with what these things end up having to be for shareholders and for delivery dates and global vis effects sweatshops or whatever the case may be.

Chris RyanHost19:30

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:30

Um, Black Panther is the one outlier here because they need him much more than he needs them.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:37

And I, I, I think it, by all accounts they have a very good working relationship, but if that relationship was ever threatened and, and, and Feige and Louis D'Esposito were like, "Actually, we need to, you know, introduce the new warriors in this movie also-"

Chris RyanHost19:50

Yeah, right.

Chris RyanHost19:50

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost19:50

...

Andy GreenwaldHost19:50

I think Coogler could be like, "Well, good luck making it without me."

Chris RyanHost19:52

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:53

You know? Um-

Chris RyanHost19:53

And good luck having anybody believe in this if I am somehow not part of it, so yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:56

Exactly.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:56

So, so it is a, it is a, it is a power thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:58

Now turning the page to the other announcement-

Chris RyanHost20:01

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost20:01

... from it, um, I, I, I, I, again, I wanna say this in a non-snobby or judgmental way.

Chris RyanHost20:07

We listen and we don't judge.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:09

Shawn Levy is a, is a professional people pleaser.

Chris RyanHost20:12

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:12

Right?

Chris RyanHost20:13

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:13

I mean, I, I, I have separate apart from what I think about the man as an or, uh, the man or the, the artist, I've never met him, but like he clearly strikes me as someone who can walk into any room and convince people that he can solve your problems-

Chris RyanHost20:23

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost20:23

... and deliver for you.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:25

And he's done that now with Star Wars 'cause he's making, he's now wrapped a Star Wars movie, and he's about to do this for Marvel, having done Deadpool & Wolverine, which I think is one of the most odious pieces of pop culture [laughs] ever released in the last 20 years, but it made a billion dollars, so congratulations to everybody involved.

Chris RyanHost20:40

Did, did we talk about that?

Andy GreenwaldHost20:41

I fucking went to LA Live at 8:00 AM and saw it and then dragged my ass over here to talk about it.

Chris RyanHost20:47

You can go to movies whenever you want, you know that, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost20:50

Not with a particular parenting schedule.

Chris RyanHost20:53

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost20:53

Do you know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost20:54

Yeah, I'm just saying, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:56

Theoretically-

Chris RyanHost20:56

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost20:57

... one could.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:58

Uh-

Chris RyanHost20:58

I don't remember that episode at all.

Chris RyanHost21:01

[laughs] Was I there?

Andy GreenwaldHost21:02

It, I, you may have been doing the 2020 NBA redraft episode of Bill's Pod.

Chris RyanHost21:06

Where I was like, "It was fine," you know? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:08

Like, "I laughed.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:10

Chris Evans was playing fantastic Four."

Chris RyanHost21:11

No, I think I was actually pretty mean about it, now that I think about it, about-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:15

Do you think that that's why you don't remember it, because there's a part of you that like blacks out like bad mommy? You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost21:19

Other mommy?

Andy GreenwaldHost21:21

Oh, sorry, flatulent mommy.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:22

[laughs] What do we call it?

Chris RyanHost21:23

Other mommy.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:23

Other mommy-

Chris RyanHost21:24

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost21:24

...

Andy GreenwaldHost21:24

when you, when you're being mean.

Chris RyanHost21:25

Um, I, uh, I think I'm a little bit more disappointed in the Gosling aspect 'cause I s-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:31

No, that's, I, that's why I was backdooring that

Chris RyanHost21:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:33

That's what I wanna talk about.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:35

So, so Feige-

Chris RyanHost21:35

There's like, there, there's, there's, y- you can have so many different parts of your career and if, if this is what Ryan Gosling-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:41

Let's go

Chris RyanHost21:41

... wants to do, it's not like he hasn't given a large chunk of his soul to the cra- uh, art and craft of acting-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:49

Chris RyanHost21:49

... and made really complicated movies and really demand-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:51

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost21:51

... done really demanding roles.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:53

He has.

Chris RyanHost21:53

And if he wants to just kinda like spend what I imagine is his early 40s, like how old is he? He's like-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:59

He's, he's a couple years younger than us.

Chris RyanHost22:00

Yeah, like mid-40s, ch- chilling somewhere probably with the beach next to him and then making movies that his kids will like.

Chris RyanHost22:10

I don't really love that excuse though.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:12

No.

Chris RyanHost22:13

The me like I just kinda don't wanna be challenged anymore and make movies that my kids will like.

Chris RyanHost22:18

Guess what, man? Your kids are gonna like good movies soon.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost22:21

You know? You can make some of them and they can watch them when they're 18 if they ...

Chris RyanHost22:25

I'm not saying you have to make Blue Valentine every six months, but like this whole like I wanna make movies my kids can watch, like your kids wanna watch cool shit.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:33

Yes.

Chris RyanHost22:34

Like [laughs] uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:34

And there will be a day-

Chris RyanHost22:35

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost22:35

...

Andy GreenwaldHost22:36

I can attest to this [laughs] when your kids will become teenagers.

Chris RyanHost22:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:39

And they'll be like, "What have you done with your life, Dad?"

Chris RyanHost22:41

They'll be like, "You made Drive?" [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost22:43

Then they'll be like-

Chris RyanHost22:43

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost22:43

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost22:43

... "And then you made the fucking Fall Guy?"

Chris RyanHost22:46

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:46

Grow up, Dad.

Chris RyanHost22:47

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost22:48

Like, yeah, it, I think it sucks.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:52

I think it sucks on a, on many levels.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:54

On w- here's, here's one level.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:56

Ghost Rider is stupid.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:58

Ghost Rider is a stupid character.

Chris RyanHost23:00

Okay.

Chris RyanHost23:00

I have no relationship-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:01

I, I have read comic books-

Chris RyanHost23:03

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost23:03

... for much of my life.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:04

I have enjoyed Ghost Rider's appearance in comic books from time to time.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:08

Ghost Rider is dumb as fuck.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:11

Ghost Rider is a guy named Johnny Blaze who gets inhabited by the Spirit of Vengeance and transforms into a dude with a flaming skull head-

Chris RyanHost23:21

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost23:22

... who rides a motorcycle and whips people with flaming chains.

Chris RyanHost23:25

And w- does he-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:26

And Nicolas Cage has been that role in movies.

Chris RyanHost23:29

Yeah, obviously.

Chris RyanHost23:29

And Eva Mendes was in that movie and-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:30

Right

Chris RyanHost23:31

... was married to Ryan Gosling.

Chris RyanHost23:32

Uh, does Ghost Rider play a part in any larger Marvel kind of storytelling?

Andy GreenwaldHost23:35

Every, I mean, every so often when an interesting writer takes over one of the big franchise titles, one of the things that they do, and this is [laughs] as, I, I bet you could name like a national side manager who does this with World Cup teams just for LOLs, but it'll be like now whoever is taking over The Avengers and it's Iron Man, Captain America, Captain Marvel, Ant-Man, fucking Ghost Rider.

Chris RyanHost23:58

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:58

And everyone's like, "Well, what's Ghost Rider doing here?" And then, then that kinda wears off.

Chris RyanHost24:03

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:03

So sure, but the fact that Kevin Feige's up on stage being like, "We've struggled for years on how to bring John Blaze into the Marvel Universe."

Chris RyanHost24:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost24:13

I'm like some people are working here, sir.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:15

Some people have real jobs, A.

Chris RyanHost24:16

[laughs] My job is going to see Deadpool & Wolverine.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:18

My job is seeing your swill, sir.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:22

At 8:00 in the morning, and I am a parent of daughters who, what did, [laughs] what did you say? One day will wanna see good shit.

Chris RyanHost24:27

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:28

Um-

Chris RyanHost24:29

Who wanna watch Only God Forgives.

Chris RyanHost24:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost24:31

Excuse me.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:32

As someone whose job it is to talk about movies [laughs] and television shows with his best friend twice a week, I stand up for the working man.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:40

Uh, anyway, uh, so that's dumb.

Chris RyanHost24:45

Mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:45

Gosling being like, "This is what I wanna do," is also really disappointing and dumb.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:51

But the dumbest thing to me is a room full of, like, hundreds and hundreds of nominal adults screaming and cheering for someone getting hired.

Chris RyanHost25:03

Your dad just came out.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:04

No, but for real, though.

Chris RyanHost25:05

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost25:05

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:05

There's no movie here.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:07

They're not...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:07

They're like, "And now we're here to announce that Ryan Gosling has been promoted to VP of International Marketing and Research."

Chris RyanHost25:14

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:14

Everyone's like, "Fucking hooray." [clapping] "You got a job." He didn't need the job.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:19

There's no movie.

Chris RyanHost25:20

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:21

It's an idea of a thing of someone doing something later.

Chris RyanHost25:24

Well, they have the, the f- the font for the poster and everything.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:28

Look how, look how you're s- quietly zagging.

Chris RyanHost25:30

I'm not zagging at all.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:31

You're Homer Simpson into the bush right now.

Chris RyanHost25:32

I, you know what it is, is that-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:33

It's, it's a fucking Shawn Levy movie where he's gonna be a spirit of vengeance but he'll probably have a soft spot for a kid.

Chris RyanHost25:38

Oh, God.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:38

You know? Like, come on, dude.

Chris RyanHost25:40

If there's a kid in Ghost Rider.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:42

There's gonna be a kid in Ghost Rider.

Chris RyanHost25:43

Do you think he's gonna be a little-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:44

Like, which camera? There's gonna be-

Chris RyanHost25:45

Is he a little, a junior ghost w- with his head is on fire, too? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:48

Little ghost?

Chris RyanHost25:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost25:49

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:49

You know what would be cool? This is kind of a tangent.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:51

I don't know if you ever see these, but there's a great, uh, thing on Instagram that pops up all the time.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:55

First of all, everything on Instagram, great.

Chris RyanHost25:57

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:57

Love it.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:58

But it's just, like, a dude in England who rides a bike, mountain bike, with his little kid in the front.

Chris RyanHost26:02

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:02

And the videos are just the kid going, "Daddy, bus." And he's like, "Yes, that's a bus." He goes, "Daddy, flowers." He's like, "Good, that's flowers." What if that was Ghost Rider?

Chris RyanHost26:10

Is the kid, like, harnessed or... [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost26:12

The kid has a little seat on this, and he has his own handlebars.

Chris RyanHost26:16

Oh, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:16

So he's riding on the bu- on the bike.

Chris RyanHost26:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:18

And then the guy has, like, a camera, and that's the video.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:20

I could watch that forever.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:21

If that's Ghost Rider-

Chris RyanHost26:22

I like the dude who gets up at, like, before dawn and, like, rides through Trafalgar Square and kinda-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:25

Jonno Verity?

Chris RyanHost26:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:26

He's my hero.

Chris RyanHost26:27

Right, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:28

That-

Chris RyanHost26:29

[laughs] Okay, sorry.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:29

I fucking, I watch that shit live.

Chris RyanHost26:31

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost26:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost26:31

That guy's the best 'cause he's waking up in London at-

Chris RyanHost26:34

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost26:34

... and it's 10, 9, 10 PM here.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:36

Can we just, can we sidebar for a second here?

Chris RyanHost26:38

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:39

Here's why I think we're doomed.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:40

[laughs] Just, and it's not about Wolverine and Deadpool or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:44

It's about the fact that you know, and everyone who listens to this podcast know, that most of my time not, uh, you know, working real hard is, like, looking at, like, London restaurants and pub content on my f- phone.

Chris RyanHost26:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:57

Like Insta- like, I follow restaurants, I follow whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:59

And the way that it gets you is that it constantly, constantly pushes you towards extremity in the worst possible ways.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:07

So, like, I like to watch James Dimitri go into pubs and order a snakebite, which is beer and cider.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:13

And then I'm like, and then it's like-

Chris RyanHost27:14

And black currant

Andy GreenwaldHost27:14

... and bl- with a little black currant on top.

Chris RyanHost27:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:16

Or a lot of black currant.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:18

Then ne- then I go to, like, suggested for you, and it's a guy walking into a Costco in Florida being like, "I've got $10, how quickly can I get blackout drunk by chugging this Popoff bottle?"

Chris RyanHost27:29

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost27:29

And I'm like, no, no, I d- I understand, Claude, that these both involve men drinking, but there's a, there's a difference here.

Chris RyanHost27:36

Uh-huh.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:37

Or, like, I follow a British restaurant, you know, and I'm like, "Oh, it looks like they've got a, an interesting tandoori special.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:42

One day I'd like to visit that." And then the next suggested for you is, is this American woman being like, "The British people are pussies about spice.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:49

I'm gonna take their six chicken wing challenge," and then she just starts barfing in the restaurant.

Chris RyanHost27:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost27:55

Like, I don't wanna know that.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:57

I don't wanna see that.

Chris RyanHost27:58

Well-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:59

I blame Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg.

Chris RyanHost28:01

Yeah, I, I mean, I think that there's probably been greater infractions and crimes-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:07

Nope

Chris RyanHost28:07

... by, [laughs] by-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:08

I don't think so

Chris RyanHost28:08

... large tech companies than you being forced to watch somebody puke.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:12

I'm just saying how this is, this is the way things go.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:15

This is the way we tr- this is the trend.

Chris RyanHost28:17

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:17

This is how we go towards ruin, and maybe Shawn Levy directing Ghost Rider is the first, the, the next.

Chris RyanHost28:24

I will just say, to put a, to put a bow on the Ryan Gosling thing-

Lanterns trailer & DCU expectations28:27 – 36:08

Andy GreenwaldHost28:27

Sure

Chris RyanHost28:27

... uh, I don't, I don't want him to be sad, I don't want him to be upset, and I want him to make money.

Chris RyanHost28:32

Like, I think those are all great things.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:33

Yeah, me too.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:33

He's, he's the best.

Chris RyanHost28:34

That's why he should've just kept making Nice Guys, uh, because it would've been right in the middle.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:38

Yes.

Chris RyanHost28:39

You know? Rather than all this, all the way over where every couple of movies you're gonna get a Project Hail Mary, but then you're also gonna get a, a, a Fall Guy.

Chris RyanHost28:48

Well, Fall Guy was okay, but, like, The Gray Man, um-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:52

Uh-huh

Chris RyanHost28:52

... pretty bad.

Chris RyanHost28:53

So yeah, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:54

Wh- what about the whole they didn't do...

Andy GreenwaldHost28:57

I think we thought, many people thought, many people are saying-

Chris RyanHost29:00

That they would announce the X-Men

Andy GreenwaldHost29:01

... yeah, I guess they didn't for reasons including they're still holding on to the-

Chris RyanHost29:06

Well, they're pretending like the Fox X-Men are gonna live for more than 15 minutes in that movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:10

[laughs] I know.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:12

I know.

Chris RyanHost29:12

No, uh, no spoilers, but that's how-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:14

No spoilers but they're like, "Anthony Mackie, Paul Rudd, and Kelsey Grammer are all gonna be in this movie for the same amount of time."

Chris RyanHost29:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost29:23

Like, that is-

Chris RyanHost29:24

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost29:25

... everyone's, like, screaming.

Chris RyanHost29:26

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:27

They're so excited.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:27

Where-

Chris RyanHost29:27

There was apparently a Doomsday trailer-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:30

Yeah

Chris RyanHost29:31

... uh, where a l- I, I guess there's more, more to it, and it's, like, Vanessa Kirby narrating, like, "Doom.

Chris RyanHost29:37

D- Dr. Doom is like-"

Andy GreenwaldHost29:39

Doctor.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:39

He showed me his credentials.

Chris RyanHost29:41

His credentials.

Chris RyanHost29:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost29:41

He's actually a PhD, not a medical doctor.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:46

He actually...

Andy GreenwaldHost29:47

What is, what do you think his doctorate's in?

Chris RyanHost29:49

Um, whatever it took to get...

Chris RyanHost29:53

What was the, the Sokovia? Like, what was it?

Andy GreenwaldHost29:55

Mm.

Chris RyanHost29:56

Was he, like, an infrastructure doctor?

Andy GreenwaldHost29:57

Oh, my God.

Chris RyanHost29:58

To, like, rebuild Sokovia?

Andy GreenwaldHost29:59

Yes.

Chris RyanHost29:59

No, he's from Latveria, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost30:01

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost30:01

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:01

And he's, like, and, and probably Sokovia radicalized him, 'cause if it could happen to one made-up country in Eastern Europe-

Chris RyanHost30:05

Well, I, I f- you know, I think they give away why he's radicalized.

Chris RyanHost30:08

They took his family, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost30:09

Who?

Chris RyanHost30:10

Like, some tragedy.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:12

Uh, it's so funny the, like, the letle- level of water carrying where they're like, "No, no, no, Doom is different as a villain because they took everything from him."

Chris RyanHost30:18

But that's the same as what happened to Thanos, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost30:20

It's the same as everyone.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:21

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost30:21

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost30:22

It just, you take everything from me, I become a supervillain.

Chris RyanHost30:26

[laughs] Um- Kind of on the superhero tip-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:28

But-

Chris RyanHost30:28

Lately, what?

Andy GreenwaldHost30:29

I just wa- Did you have any other thoughts about this new footage or about this new...

Andy GreenwaldHost30:32

Has this, has it changed...

Andy GreenwaldHost30:33

Do you think that they did anything-

Chris RyanHost30:35

I didn't s-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:35

To counter-

Chris RyanHost30:35

Did the new footage come out? I didn't see it.

Chris RyanHost30:37

They were just describing it.

Chris RyanHost30:38

I read a description of it.

Chris RyanHost30:40

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost30:40

Look how fucking far we've fallen.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:42

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost30:42

I don't think that that Comic-Con footage has come out yet-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:45

Did-

Chris RyanHost30:45

As of press time

Andy GreenwaldHost30:46

... did you see...

Andy GreenwaldHost30:47

The only thing that I know, and I, I intentionally, I, I don't want spoilers even if the movie ends up being trash.

Chris RyanHost30:52

Of what?

Andy GreenwaldHost30:52

Of, of Doomsday.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:53

But, but-

Chris RyanHost30:53

You've, you've read it already

Andy GreenwaldHost30:54

...

Andy GreenwaldHost30:55

I don't think they're doing one-to-one.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:56

They was, there wasn't a story called Doomsday.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:58

We think that they-

Chris RyanHost30:59

Oh, but you haven't read, like, the leaks or anything like that?

Andy GreenwaldHost31:01

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:01

And, and look at your face.

Chris RyanHost31:03

I have.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:03

You're doing the Windhorse.

Chris RyanHost31:04

I am.

Chris RyanHost31:04

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost31:05

But all I'm seeing is headlines being like, "Oh my God, LMFAO, all the leaks are right."

Chris RyanHost31:13

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:14

So people are, like, not thrilled about that.

Chris RyanHost31:17

Oh, I, I think it's a decent enough story.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:19

You think it's a decent enough story?

Chris RyanHost31:21

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:21

What's your PhD in-

Chris RyanHost31:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost31:22

...

Andy GreenwaldHost31:22

Dr. Ryan?

Chris RyanHost31:24

Public relations.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:25

[laughs] Yeah, no fucking...

Andy GreenwaldHost31:26

That's fucking right.

Chris RyanHost31:27

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:28

Okay

Chris RyanHost31:28

... just to put a cap on the superhero side of things, there was another Lanterns trailer.

Chris RyanHost31:33

There was a whole Lanterns event.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:34

Let's, let's talk about it

Chris RyanHost31:34

... looked really cool.

Chris RyanHost31:35

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:36

You can't yada, yada that.

Chris RyanHost31:37

I'm not yada, yada-ing anything.

Chris RyanHost31:39

It's a great trailer.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:40

The trailer is so good.

Chris RyanHost31:42

And it's...

Chris RyanHost31:43

We were talking just a minute ago about bringing your-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:47

Chris RyanHost31:47

... artistic sensibility to a corporate one, or not even a corporate one-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:50

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost31:50

...

Chris RyanHost31:50

but one with, like, an established IP.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:52

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost31:52

And I would say at the, on the DC side of things right now, for as much as Gunn and Safran are kind of running-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:58

Chris RyanHost31:58

...

Chris RyanHost31:58

DCU-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:00

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost32:01

...

Chris RyanHost32:01

I thought this very much felt like an extension of Watchmen-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:07

Yeah

Chris RyanHost32:07

... and leftovers in some previous Lindelof stuff.

Chris RyanHost32:10

And, uh, I thought that was really cool.

Chris RyanHost32:12

Now maybe part of that is because it looks like they shot it in, they shot it in Oklahoma, I believe.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:17

They shot on locations, yeah.

Chris RyanHost32:18

[lips smack] Um, but I don't really know anything about Green Lantern, so this is all, all the, like, ring and-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:24

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost32:24

... who gets to be what stuff-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:26

Well, so, so-

Chris RyanHost32:26

... is new to me

Andy GreenwaldHost32:27

...

Andy GreenwaldHost32:27

but that's what I'm curious about because they, they, they had a teaser that was very grounded, as they say.

Chris RyanHost32:32

Yes, and then this was much more-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:33

And from what I understand, like, the, like, the hardcore fans were like, "What have they done to my beautiful green baby?"

Chris RyanHost32:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:39

And then in this one they were like, "Holy shit, that's Sinestro in the flesh." And yet that's an incredibly fine line to walk, which is why I'm really praising the trailer because I, I thought it was an incredible trailer.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:50

It looks like a very, very rare marriage between both sensibilities.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:55

But you are coming in cold.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:56

Were you put off in any way by the ring stuff or the space stuff?

Chris RyanHost32:59

No, I think I got it.

Chris RyanHost33:00

I think I understand what's at stake and, and what the ring does.

Chris RyanHost33:03

And I, I don't necessarily understand all of, like, which, which every lantern guy is, but I thought it looked really good.

Chris RyanHost33:10

And also the archetypes that these people are playing-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:13

Chris RyanHost33:13

... like Kyle Chandler playing the, like, a little bit past it, hanging onto the ring a little hard.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:18

He's so good.

Chris RyanHost33:18

Aaron Pierre waiting in the wings.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:19

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost33:19

Aaron Rogers, Brett Favre action going.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:21

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost33:22

Uh, Kelly Macdonald.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:25

And a lot of-

Chris RyanHost33:26

So I'm yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost33:26

... you know, you, we were saying a decade ago I did the Banshee panel.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:29

A lot of Banshee representation here.

Chris RyanHost33:31

Cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:32

Um, Ulrich Thompson, who's the villain on Banshee, is playing Sinestro.

Chris RyanHost33:35

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:35

He seems great in the trailer.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:37

Great, fun actor.

Chris RyanHost33:37

Sinestro is the bad guy.

Chris RyanHost33:39

Is he also a lantern? Is he a-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:40

He was a lantern and he was corrupted by-

Chris RyanHost33:43

Do they take everything from him?

Andy GreenwaldHost33:45

... by fear.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:45

No, yellow is the bad color.

Chris RyanHost33:47

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:47

So now he's bad.

Chris RyanHost33:48

Okay.

Chris RyanHost33:49

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:49

Uh, and, and Chris Coy, who was also in The Deuce-

Chris RyanHost33:52

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost33:52

... and is on Banshee.

Chris RyanHost33:52

Garrett Dillahunt, Porno Jack Nathan-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:54

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost33:54

... and, uh, Laura Linney.

Chris RyanHost33:56

So-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:56

Come on

Chris RyanHost33:57

...

Chris RyanHost33:57

this looks really good, man.

Chris RyanHost33:58

Um, that comes August, I believe, 19th.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:02

I-

Chris RyanHost34:02

Something like that

Andy GreenwaldHost34:02

...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:02

I would-

Chris RyanHost34:02

So it's mid-August

Andy GreenwaldHost34:03

...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:03

I would say the i- I would say this is fascinating to us both because we like the people involved and we like, and we hope for more interesting or thoughtful or creative expressions of the material that everybody is working with.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:14

I think it's gonna be interesting, um, to look at the ways two, two different levels of collaborations worked with the show when it comes out.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:23

One is we were talking about our friend Damon Lindelof, who is one of the co-creators and worked on season one of the show.

Chris RyanHost34:31

Yep.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:32

Also working on season one of the show is Tom King, who is an incredibly accomplished and really innovative and I think often brilliant comic book writer who's written arcs on, like, Shade, the Changing Man, and, and Vision a- and Batman that have been really groundbreaking.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:46

And this is him working in a different medium.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:48

And, uh, but the one holding them together is Chris Mundy, who made Ozark.

Chris RyanHost34:52

Yep.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:53

That's top-heavy as far as TV shows go, but from all accounts it was a really successful collaboration, so I'm interested to see whose DNA or what recombinant form of, like, storytelling emerges from that.

Chris RyanHost35:03

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:03

And then, two, I know you were watching, 'cause I know you're a big DCU guy, that you saw that, um, Nathan Fillion's Guy Gardner is in this trailer.

Chris RyanHost35:11

I thought that wa-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:11

That wa-

Chris RyanHost35:12

... that was a long-known.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:13

It wasn't a surprise.

Chris RyanHost35:14

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:14

But that character as being, like, James Gunn's favorite version of a Green Lantern that he already introduced in Superman, who's just kind of like a very meta self-aware joking dickhead-

Chris RyanHost35:24

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost35:24

... being in this show, which is like, "No, we're doing True Detective, and we're not worried about the larger ramifications"

Chris RyanHost35:31

Could that just be, like, a one-episode, like, w- like one-off-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:34

Well, the i-

Chris RyanHost35:34

... or do you think he's, like, gonna be showing up at the end of very traumatic-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:37

It's-

Chris RyanHost35:37

... scenes and being like, "Wow, I can't believe this is happening"?

Andy GreenwaldHost35:39

Well, that...

Andy GreenwaldHost35:40

Like, the question is, like, what, who, what wins when you combine two-

Chris RyanHost35:43

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost35:43

... strong flavor profiles? And, like, can they shade it differently and present a different version of him, kind of the way that Marvel's gonna try to do with Bernthal's Punisher, who we last saw in his one-off special basically reenacting only the gnarly parts of Infernal Affairs, right?

Chris RyanHost35:59

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:59

And then now is gonna be like, "Gee, Spidey, time to tackle The Hulk."

Chris RyanHost36:03

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost36:04

We'll see.

Chris RyanHost36:04

Um, two more TV shows that I wanted to talk about-

Retro-futurist TV – Neuromancer & Blade Runner 209936:08 – 46:57

Andy GreenwaldHost36:08

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost36:08

... that got trailers from s- Comic-Con.

Chris RyanHost36:11

Uh, and they, they are united in a kind of vision of the future, so I think they work well.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:15

Mm.

Chris RyanHost36:15

They're retrofuturist TV shows.

Chris RyanHost36:18

One is Apple TV's Neuromancer-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost36:21

... adaptation, which is William Gibson's seminal cyberpunk novel that has been long- Kind of like many, many filmmakers have tried to unlock this from Ridley Scott to Chris Cunningham who directed those-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:35

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost36:35

...

Chris RyanHost36:35

Aphex Twin videos to like the, Chuck Russell who recently passed away.

Chris RyanHost36:41

Um, and like I think Mel Gibson was gonna be attached to the Ridley Scott version at some point.

Chris RyanHost36:47

But people have wanted to make this book for almost as long as it's existed, and it is hugely influential-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:52

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost36:53

... uh, on The Matrix, on, on tons of stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:56

Clearly.

Chris RyanHost36:56

You know, one of the funny things with making something like Neuromancer is that probably every five to seven years it goes in and out of style both in terms of-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:06

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost37:06

...

Chris RyanHost37:06

the visual language of like what's being made now, but also what's happening in the culture in terms of packing and all this other stuff.

Chris RyanHost37:14

And I thought this trailer looked awesome.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:17

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost37:17

So this comes from, I believe his name, uh, it's...

Chris RyanHost37:19

Yeah, it's Graham Roland who does Dark Winds and JD Dillard, and uh, he, I think JD Dillard directed it all 10 episodes.

Chris RyanHost37:27

It's not coming out until next year.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:28

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost37:28

But it just looked really cool.

Chris RyanHost37:31

Like I mean, I suppose there are parts of it that kind of look Fifth Elementy, although for some people I don't know that that's gonna be a turn-off.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:37

That's not a bad thing.

Chris RyanHost37:37

And Callum Turner seemed like a really stable central force in this.

Chris RyanHost37:43

But more than anything, I just thought it...

Chris RyanHost37:45

Like the trailer is essentially cut like Fincher's Girl with a Dragon Tattoo-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:49

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost37:49

... uh, teaser and it just had a really great vibe.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:54

I, I mean, I thought it looked great.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:56

Um, I think it's, it's impressive too to do it from like a, basically a, from standing still.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:02

Like I did not have anticipation, I did not have expectations.

Chris RyanHost38:04

Do, do you ever read any Gibson?

Andy GreenwaldHost38:06

No, I wondered if you...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:07

Were you anywhere with that?

Chris RyanHost38:07

I think I...

Chris RyanHost38:07

I mean, I read Neuromancer-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:09

Did you?

Chris RyanHost38:09

...

Chris RyanHost38:09

in high school or something like that, or college, but yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:11

No, I didn't.

Chris RyanHost38:12

Like I don't, didn't understand-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:12

Did it blow your mind?

Chris RyanHost38:13

... a fucking thing.

Chris RyanHost38:13

No. Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:14

I, I think the risk with material like this that has been so beloved and so influential for so long is that you come back to it and it's been strip mined for parts culturally.

Chris RyanHost38:22

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:22

I think that's kind of what happened when Peacock finally got around to making an adaptation of Huxley's Brave New World.

Chris RyanHost38:28

Oh, yeah.

Chris RyanHost38:29

I forgot they did that.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:29

Which is that like, that has been...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:32

That, that mine... [laughs] I mean, we're gonna be talking about Diamond Mine soon with the Agency season two.

Chris RyanHost38:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost38:36

But that had been stripped.

Chris RyanHost38:37

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:37

You know? And-

Chris RyanHost38:37

Viking had been there [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost38:38

...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:38

Viking had been there already.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:40

We were, we were too late.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:42

Um, which doesn't mean the attempt was like, was a bad idea, it's just when you get there and you realize that people get these references already and convincing them that this is where they came from is tricky.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:51

So seeing the Neuromancer trailer, there are gonna be people who are like, "Oh, they're just doing The Matrix," but The Matrix was doing this.

Chris RyanHost38:58

Yes.

Chris RyanHost38:58

I thought that was wise on the part of the trailer to have some text that like pushed forward the idea of like this is the thing that invented-

Andy GreenwaldHost39:06

Yes

Chris RyanHost39:07

... all this stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:08

Yes.

Chris RyanHost39:08

And I, I just think it looked...

Chris RyanHost39:10

I, I thought it looked really good.

Chris RyanHost39:12

You know, one of the things that was neat about it was even though there are some images that will look very reminiscent of, say, Blade Runner-

Andy GreenwaldHost39:20

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost39:21

... uh, there's also stuff that l- like the woman with the, the crazy sharp nails and the glass eyes, like, like there were some really striking visuals in this-

Andy GreenwaldHost39:30

Yeah

Chris RyanHost39:30

... that I thought were like very, very cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:32

I think that the, one of the things that the tipping point for adaptations like this is how you approach the material with hindsight and history, meaning if you make it and then try to imbue it with the same kind of cautionary...

Andy GreenwaldHost39:47

I'm...

Andy GreenwaldHost39:47

William Gibson did not write it as a cautionary tale.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:49

He's like always been kind of visionary and, and future-minded.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:53

But you can't approach this text as like, ah, this was a warning sign from-

Chris RyanHost39:57

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost39:57

...

Andy GreenwaldHost39:57

the town crier because we're in a totally different version of actual reality now.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:01

But if you approach it as like the bones here for something very cool and compelling a story are worth doing, then you do it.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:06

And it just...

Andy GreenwaldHost40:07

The bones are good.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:08

Like the cast is deep and kind of impressive.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:11

You got Mark Strong, Peter Sarsgaard, your guy Dane DeHaan.

Chris RyanHost40:14

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:15

Um, Clémence Poésy, um, Andre De Shields from Hadestown.

Chris RyanHost40:19

There you go.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:20

Big box office hit this weekend, Hadestown.

Chris RyanHost40:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost40:22

You wanna talk about that? Um, but uh, I, I thought it looked cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:27

Also, um, have you ever heard of this guy Aubrey Drake Graham? He's an up-and-comer.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:32

He's a producer on it.

Chris RyanHost40:33

Nice.

Chris RyanHost40:33

Did he get a piece of this?

Andy GreenwaldHost40:34

Mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:34

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost40:35

Wow.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:36

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost40:36

Uh, another trailer that came out, another seminal piece of retrofuturism and, you know, a, a story that we just can't quit is Blade Runner.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:46

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost40:46

So we've got Ridley Scott's several versions of the first film.

Chris RyanHost40:51

We've got Denis Villeneuve's Blade Runner 2049, and then a long gestating, I feel like this has been announced, this was announced a long time ago, Blade Runner 2099, uh, which is a new Amazon series that I believe comes out in the fall starring Hunter Schafer and Michelle Yeoh.

Chris RyanHost41:08

And I would say I'm pretty into these two performers, and I really like just saying the word replicants.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:17

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost41:17

Much like Cousin, Cousin Richie on [laughs] on The Bear.

Chris RyanHost41:21

But the idea that this takes place 50 years after the Villeneuve film-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:27

Yeah

Chris RyanHost41:27

... and I would say they haven't iterated much on the architecture or [laughs] or look or feel or design of this movie-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:35

Yeah

Chris RyanHost41:35

... or this story, considering the fact that it would be close to 70 years of, of time taking place.

Chris RyanHost41:45

So I'm curious about it.

Chris RyanHost41:46

I'm definitely gonna check it out, but it almost felt like they repopulated-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:51

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost41:52

...

Chris RyanHost41:52

the sets and skin of Blade Runner 2049 to some extent.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:57

When we talk about the Agency, and we're gonna talk about it momentarily, um, we've talked a lot about how it is kind of like an orphan of a different time that somehow survived.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:06

It's like little Kal-El, that's a DCU reference-

Chris RyanHost42:09

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost42:09

... sent away from the dying planet, um, because it was built...

Andy GreenwaldHost42:14

It was put together to be a Showtime flagship show, and is now somehow existing in this like post-Skydance merger Paramount Plus timeline.

Chris RyanHost42:21

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:22

Um, I f- kind of feel the same way about this Blade Runner show which exists mainly because there was such an, you know, this is now eight or nine years ago, but like the same, the same like we must- We must control these rare earth minerals/IP of, like, we must just continue to iterate things that people know and turn them into TV shows that brought us Lord of the Rings, that brought us much of the MCU's failed Disney+ slate.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:50

Like, the, the desire to get something into production was really strong, um, separate and apart from whether there was something worth telling or the audience appetite was there for it.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:59

Um, and then there are these just these other things that just I, I feel for the people who made the show because it was...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:06

It, you know, it was pre-strike, it was...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:08

They were gonna film in, uh, in Ir- in Belfast, and they had, like, the sets built, and they were spending their tax credit, and then the strike happened, and they'd spent their money.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:14

Then they moved the entire thing to Prague.

Chris RyanHost43:16

Mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:16

Like, this is very modern television.

Chris RyanHost43:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:18

And then all of this to debut the trailer and just confirm that it's a limited series.

Chris RyanHost43:24

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:24

Which was...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:26

I'm...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:26

They can tell you that that's what they intended for it to be, but nobody intends for that to be.

Chris RyanHost43:30

It's, it's also an interesting story to me about who controls this particular piece of IP because for...

Chris RyanHost43:38

There are two things.

Chris RyanHost43:39

Ridley Scott, who is getting up there in years, um-

Andy GreenwaldHost43:43

But, but, but trying to outrun the devil.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:45

He's working really hard

Chris RyanHost43:46

...

Chris RyanHost43:46

but has his f- his hands still on Blade Runner-

Andy GreenwaldHost43:48

He does

Chris RyanHost43:48

... and Alien.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:49

Yes.

Chris RyanHost43:49

Um, and I think has sometimes a kind of, not contentious, complicated relationship with letting these things go to other people.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:59

Yes.

Chris RyanHost44:00

Now, I, I don't know how much of it is rumor and how much of it is real that, like, he had a very, like, looking over your shoulder, uh, relationship to Fede Alvarez on Alien: Romulus.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:10

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost44:10

And that is partially why R- Alvarez is not coming back for a new film, and I believe they went through another director who was also like, "I'm not gonna do this if, like...

Chris RyanHost44:20

If he really wants to do it."

Andy GreenwaldHost44:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost44:22

But I think what he really wants to do is finish the Fastbender story with-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:27

Yeah

Chris RyanHost44:27

...

Chris RyanHost44:27

the prequels.

Chris RyanHost44:28

So, you know, it's just one of those things where it's like, uh, he, for better or for worse, has some sense of ownership over these things, and perhaps actual technical contractual ownership over these stories.

Chris RyanHost44:41

So you're not gonna really get any of this stuff done unless you say, from Executive Producer Ridley Scott, before the, before the title.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:49

Do you know he's turning 89 this year?

Chris RyanHost44:50

I do know that.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:52

That's ins- that's wild.

Chris RyanHost44:53

Yes.

Chris RyanHost44:54

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:54

Is he gonna run for president?

Chris RyanHost44:56

No, but, like, when you, when you have older parents, I think you're just like-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:00

This is what I'm saying, yes

Chris RyanHost45:01

... how the fu-...

Chris RyanHost45:01

Like, my, my mom couldn't operate Apple TV.

Chris RyanHost45:04

Like, how the fuck can Ridley Scott direct Gladiator 2?

Andy GreenwaldHost45:07

It might have something to do with w- you know, we've...

Andy GreenwaldHost45:09

Anecdotally, we've heard that, like, he does have, like, someone providing him with caffeinated drinks for half the day and then ma- maybe a little alcoholic drink in the afternoon.

Chris RyanHost45:18

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:18

Like, he's, he is on a very, like, regimented schedule of what he likes.

Chris RyanHost45:21

Me too.

Chris RyanHost45:21

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:22

Honestly.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:22

I know, but I think the difference is someone is just there to provide it for you.

Chris RyanHost45:25

Sure.

Chris RyanHost45:25

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:26

Um-

Chris RyanHost45:27

Must be nice.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:28

I...

Andy GreenwaldHost45:28

It must be.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:29

I think it must be.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:30

I, I, I don't know.

Chris RyanHost45:33

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:33

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:34

I, I, I think, um-

Chris RyanHost45:35

You a big Blade Runner guy at all?

Andy GreenwaldHost45:37

I love the first movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:38

I was pretty into the sequel.

Chris RyanHost45:41

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:41

Um-

Chris RyanHost45:41

G- a, a good Gosling.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:43

A, a good Gosling, but again, like, the franch- I mean, it, it...

Andy GreenwaldHost45:50

In, in, in the moment, I was like, "This is a perfect vehicle for him," and then now in retrospect I'm like, the, the...

Andy GreenwaldHost45:55

His engagement with the franchise model, I feel like I wish he was doing other things with it, but this is the world that he-

Chris RyanHost46:01

Who?

Andy GreenwaldHost46:02

The Gosling.

Chris RyanHost46:03

Because-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:03

No, no, no.

Chris RyanHost46:03

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:03

The Gosling.

Chris RyanHost46:04

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:04

Like, at, at the time it's like if-

Chris RyanHost46:05

Oh, when he's, like, doing a franchise hop

Andy GreenwaldHost46:05

...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:05

if you look at a Villeneuve movie-

Chris RyanHost46:07

Yeah, I, I see what you're saying

Andy GreenwaldHost46:08

... you know, like, he...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:09

That, that...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:09

The one...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:10

There, there are the two paths, it seems, for contemporary actors, and they are to do the DiCaprio and just try to only work with the best directors-

Chris RyanHost46:17

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost46:17

... and, and, and avoid superhero capes and tights, or there's the, like, "Look, man, I just gotta, I gotta establish a beachhead here-

Chris RyanHost46:25

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost46:25

...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:25

in Sokovia, and then I can do work outside." [laughs]

Chris RyanHost46:28

That was always like Sam Jackson said Bruce Willis told him, "Get a character that you can go back to every three to five years-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:35

Right

Chris RyanHost46:35

...

Chris RyanHost46:35

so that, like, you never have to worry about ups and downs in the box office."

Andy GreenwaldHost46:38

I think that Pedro Pascal is doing that, but what people don't realize is that character is, um, uh, cinema cellist Alex whatever.

Chris RyanHost46:46

Alex Behemoth.

Chris RyanHost46:46

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost46:47

A- and be Alex Behemoth.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:49

That at the end of the movie he opens the cello case and his, his costume is in there.

Chris RyanHost46:53

And Doom is in there.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:53

And he flies off.

Chris RyanHost46:56

I wanna talk to you about The Agency Season 2.

The Agency Season 2 review46:57 – 1:10:37

Chris RyanHost46:57

Now, we usually don't do, uh, wrap-ups like this where there's no sort of defined which episodes are we talking about.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:05

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost47:06

So for anybody who hasn't watched The Agency Season 2, you'll find this conversation useless-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:09

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost47:10

...

Chris RyanHost47:10

but we wanted to knock something out that we felt passionate about on a Monday-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:13

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost47:13

... because I think that Dragon was a bit divisive this week for us.

Chris RyanHost47:18

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:19

Not between us.

Chris RyanHost47:19

Not between us.

Chris RyanHost47:20

I mean, like, I think between what they, what they offered up and what we-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:23

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost47:23

... what we liked about it.

Chris RyanHost47:24

Um, so I have a couple of kind of, like, uh, superlatives questions about the season itself for you.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:32

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost47:33

I, I wanted to ask what you kind of took away from this season as a whole.

Chris RyanHost47:38

Uh, I will say upfront-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:40

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost47:41

... that I thought it was excellent.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:44

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost47:45

It didn't feel excellent.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:47

What do you mean?

Chris RyanHost47:48

I d- I really did have...

Chris RyanHost47:49

I had trouble with the, the remake element of it, I think.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:53

Hmm.

Chris RyanHost47:53

I don't think, I, I don't think that this is...

Chris RyanHost47:57

I wish they had taken more chances, and I wish they had-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:00

I agree with that

Chris RyanHost48:00

... done some different things with the characters, and I wish maybe it didn't feel as, like...

Chris RyanHost48:07

I was trying to...

Chris RyanHost48:07

I couldn't even think of a, of a metaphor or, like, an illusion.

Chris RyanHost48:11

Like, what is, what is the experience of watching something so specific being so brilliantly and thoughtfully remade-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:20

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost48:20

...

Chris RyanHost48:20

but so catholically-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:22

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost48:22

... that you're like, "Okay, and then I, I remember, like, Henry does this-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:27

Yeah

Chris RyanHost48:27

... and then this happens, and then this happens." And I think when you're watching a suspense thriller, to have all of suspense taken out of it, and this show is made much more like a suspense thriller-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:38

Yes

Chris RyanHost48:38

... rather than the French kind of, like, "What makes a man a spy, and who is he?" And what is he-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:45

Keep going.

Chris RyanHost48:45

No, you know what I mean?

Andy GreenwaldHost48:46

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost48:47

Like, this is much more like we have to go get Viking.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:50

Well-

Chris RyanHost48:50

We're in a trap now

Andy GreenwaldHost48:50

... well, I do think that, that, and we talked about this with Season 1, too, that, that one of the slight tweaks that I think is a smart one is that when you take a show that is, and we're talking about Le Bureau, which everyone should watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:00

It's one of the, I, I don't know, probably my, one of my top 10 television series ever.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:03

Definitely the best spy series ever.

Chris RyanHost49:05

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:05

Um, which is about French, the French intelligence service, and they are not the, they are not the biggest elephant in the room.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:14

And so when you make the same show about the power that everyone else reacts to, about the CIA, you have to tweak some things, and I do think that the tweaking towards it being more of a cut-and-dry power show and an action show, uh, makes sense.

Chris RyanHost49:30

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:30

Um, but it, that is a very subtle tweak.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:32

That is not necessarily, you know, as granular as I think you would like, and I agree with you.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:37

Uh, my experience with it-

Chris RyanHost49:38

I didn't, I don't think they leaned enough into that.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:40

Well, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:41

I, I, I think, I, I, I think a number of things.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:45

I think it is frustrating that a show built on the best bones you possibly could, uh, acquire [laughs] through IP purchasing or transferring, and then was, was, um, kitted out with just a god-tier cast.

Chris RyanHost50:05

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:06

I mean, Richard Gere and Jeffrey Wright on the show-

Chris RyanHost50:08

It's ridiculous [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost50:09

... are on a different level-

Chris RyanHost50:10

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost50:10

... than most performers on television, and I could watch them forever, and I wish that I could.

Chris RyanHost50:14

Richard Gere just doing work a day, like, "What do you want? You're in my office" stuff.

Chris RyanHost50:19

Like, "But now get out of my office," is, is...

Chris RyanHost50:22

It's ridiculous how good he is.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:24

But also, I'm here for the Geresance.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:26

I just saw...

Andy GreenwaldHost50:26

Do you know that he's starring in the adaptation of the Lisa Halliday novel Asymmetry?

Chris RyanHost50:30

I didn't.

Chris RyanHost50:30

I did see-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:30

Which is about a young woman's romance with Philip Roth when they're, he was 40 years older than her.

Chris RyanHost50:34

Yeah, I saw pictures of, of him filming that.

Chris RyanHost50:36

Who's the woman-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:36

Uh-

Chris RyanHost50:37

...

Chris RyanHost50:37

in the, in the film?

Andy GreenwaldHost50:37

...

Andy GreenwaldHost50:37

Diana Silvers, who is, she was on, um, she was in Booksmart.

Chris RyanHost50:42

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:43

She is, she is accurately 40 years younger than him.

Chris RyanHost50:45

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost50:46

Comments were so cool about this movie, I gotta say.

Chris RyanHost50:49

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost50:49

They were really looking for the nuance in the literary adaptation.

Chris RyanHost50:52

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:52

Anyway, I'm just saying, uh, late-period Gere, where he just, he's still, like, a completely unique, beautiful, and charismatic individual, but he looks so fucking over it, is incredible.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:04

It's just like he got a little extra, he got an extra color in his palette-

Chris RyanHost51:10

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost51:10

... to play with, and I, I think it's amazing.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:12

But it is kind of frustrating that a show with so much pre-built going into it, to my mind, having now watched both seasons, really took a while to find its own footing.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:22

My experience with it was I was very impressed with Season 1, very impressed with the cast, very impressed with the accurate adaptation, very excited that people would be discovering an incredible story.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:32

Um, but it didn't rise beyond the level of its adaptation.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:37

When Season 2 started and it was dumped, uh, unceremoniously, and we started getting feedback-

Chris RyanHost51:42

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost51:42

... from people who binged it that it was incredible, it's taken a leap.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:45

After three episodes, I didn't fully agree because what I felt was that same sense of, like, the best karaoke performance I've ever seen in my life.

Chris RyanHost51:52

Yes.

Chris RyanHost51:52

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:52

Sometime around four or five-

Chris RyanHost51:55

I think when Owen goes to Africa

Andy GreenwaldHost51:57

...

Andy GreenwaldHost51:57

it, it elevated for me.

Chris RyanHost51:58

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:58

And suddenly I noticed that it was doing things, not just in, like, differentiating in terms of adaptation, but finding new parcels and packets of ideas and themes and emotion in the softer character moments between scenes.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:13

You could feel it at the beginning of Season 2 when the, you know, Owen is hooking up with Raine, who's the office, who's an assistant in the office, and then, you know, the, the, the party-

Chris RyanHost52:22

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost52:22

... where you get a little sense of...

Andy GreenwaldHost52:23

And by the way, the, the Owen character in the French version as kind of, like, the office guy who is just inexplicably an absolute swordsman-

Chris RyanHost52:30

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost52:30

... um, even after his gr- grievous injury, um, that's canon.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:35

That's canonical.

Chris RyanHost52:36

Sure.

Chris RyanHost52:36

That-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:36

But, but there was just more room to grow there, and, like, the Blair character, who's there throughout the Season 1, and then w- and I should, I should be saying the actor.

Chris RyanHost52:44

Aml Ameen Razia, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:45

I think she's amazing.

Chris RyanHost52:46

She's great.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:46

And, and I love the way, the cadence that she's chosen to speak in this character-

Chris RyanHost52:50

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost52:50

... that both, I think, help probably, helps with her accent because, like almost everyone else [laughs] on the show, she is English playing an American.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:57

But, um, adds a different, very subtle note that suddenly you realize you've been listening to the whole time.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:03

So the fact that it...

Andy GreenwaldHost53:05

I sit here week to week with you, and I celebrate and champion shows that find their footing, that kind of lean into what's working for them, and suddenly they're ex- it's a, like, a fireworks show of an ensemble.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:16

It's very odd that a show this expensive and this, like, heavily mapped and, you know, and non, um...

Andy GreenwaldHost53:24

It's not exactly an im- it, there's nothing improvised really about it.

Chris RyanHost53:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:27

But it, that it ha- it found a spark 15 episodes into his run, its run is both maddening and also thrilling because I thought the run from 205 to 210 was some of the best TV I've seen this year.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:38

I thought 208 was just GOATed as an episode on its own terms-

Chris RyanHost53:43

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost53:43

... with its smaller, with, with its small tweaks.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:46

And it kills me because, I mean, we, we should talk about the content before we do what I'm about to do, but, like, I think this is all we're gonna get, and I think that sucks.

Chris RyanHost53:56

I, I wonder if that was maybe in the back of my mind as I, as I finished this season, but yeah, like, it, this is a st- this is a strange critique because what I'm saying is they did an excellent job remaking one of my favorite TV shows ever, and it's not the same-

Andy GreenwaldHost54:12

Yeah

Chris RyanHost54:12

... feeling w- as when you're watching [smacks lips] a Star Wars sequel, and you're like, "This is essentially New Hope." Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:19

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:20

Oh, right.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:20

Like it's-

Chris RyanHost54:20

You know what I mean? Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost54:21

... it's like the, the shadow

Chris RyanHost54:21

...

Chris RyanHost54:21

the, the gestures and the large-

Andy GreenwaldHost54:23

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost54:23

... movements of this story are basically A New Hope.

Chris RyanHost54:26

This, this is literally The Bureau.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:29

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost54:29

Uh, and I think because of the genre and because of the literal story that it's telling, at a certain point, like, even if it's, what I'm watching is thrilling, the experience of watching it becomes a little less than average because I'm like, "Yes, and-"

Andy GreenwaldHost54:49

See-

Chris RyanHost54:50

"...

Chris RyanHost54:50

I know exactly what's gonna happen"

Andy GreenwaldHost54:51

...

Andy GreenwaldHost54:51

I, I think for me, it, this is, this is very interesting to me because that was definitely my reaction through Season 1 Season two, even as I remembered, and we should probably also say, like, I have not revisited that series.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:02

I probably...

Andy GreenwaldHost55:02

That's...

Andy GreenwaldHost55:03

I would love to rewatch it, but my sense memory of, like, the word- the lyrics coming back to me is not instantaneous.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:10

I did not remember the chess scene that was gonna end the season until, like, 209.

Chris RyanHost55:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:17

And then I got excited about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:18

For me, the difference was once I started to feel the idiosyncrasies and specificity of the emotions of these characters, not of the woman in the office, but of Katherine Waterston's Naomi-

Chris RyanHost55:32

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost55:32

... and who she was and how she's playing the part and what her role in this is, it reinvigorated my engagement with the scene work.

Chris RyanHost55:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:40

So that I knew broadly, like, what was gonna happen with Hassan Zamani and, like, uh, his very bad espionage and why he gets busted and everything.

Chris RyanHost55:49

Yeah, and I think also, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost55:50

But in that moment, I was on the edge of my seat again because I enjoyed that kid's performance, and I was just locked in on the stakes for them.

Chris RyanHost55:59

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:59

You know, uh, uh, to your point, like, I knew that Danny is getting away, but the show does a couple things that I...

Andy GreenwaldHost56:06

Maybe they did it in the French version.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:07

I don't remember.

Chris RyanHost56:08

I think, I mean, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:08

But little details like s-

Chris RyanHost56:09

...

Chris RyanHost56:09

I don't even remember how it would've played out in the French...

Chris RyanHost56:12

I don't remember how it plays out in the French version of, like, who is Richardson in the French versin- version and what, h- how that goes.

Chris RyanHost56:20

Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:20

Well, I don't think he executes him.

Chris RyanHost56:22

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:22

He...

Andy GreenwaldHost56:22

In, in the French version, um, Maletru, who is Matthew Macfadyen's character, Martian, in this version, is he betrays France to America.

Chris RyanHost56:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost56:33

To Buddy Garrity.

Chris RyanHost56:33

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost56:33

And the Americans are the...

Andy GreenwaldHost56:35

Yes, [laughs] to Buddy Garrity from Friday Night Lights-

Chris RyanHost56:37

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost56:37

... to the cowboys, the CIA.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:40

Um, and th- and that adds a whole other element-

Chris RyanHost56:43

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost56:43

... of, like, are these our allies, or are they just the bullies who we owe deeds to?

Chris RyanHost56:46

I thought the whole, like, the- the China aspect of, of, uh, of this guy's rise through-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:53

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost56:53

...

Chris RyanHost56:53

MI6 was very cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:54

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost56:54

Of Richardson's rise through MI6 was very cool.

Chris RyanHost56:57

I think there were two plots that, that I found very, uh, difficult to, like, sift through again, which was one, very minor, but Martian's relationship with his daughter, and two, the Danny plot.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:12

Well-

Chris RyanHost57:12

Because the Danny plot was so close to-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:14

Let's do one then the other.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:15

The daughter stuff was i- to my mind, much better this season.

Chris RyanHost57:18

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:19

Um, it was, it was minimized.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:22

It was better chosen.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:24

Like, I thought that the m- the moments...

Andy GreenwaldHost57:26

And they made a joke about whether Fassbender could smile or not-

Chris RyanHost57:29

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost57:29

... or whether he could laugh or not.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:31

Um, the, the agency of season one and the way they over-weighted that, those scenes, I think would have...

Andy GreenwaldHost57:39

It surprised me that they didn't actually steal directly from The Bureau, which if you remember, the entire second season's framing device is him writing his confession-

Chris RyanHost57:48

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost57:48

... diary to his daughter.

Chris RyanHost57:49

While he's in a hospital bed?

Andy GreenwaldHost57:51

That's-

Chris RyanHost57:52

Or is it-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:52

... season one.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:53

Well, in season one, we see...

Andy GreenwaldHost57:55

I think it's season one.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:57

He's in the hospital selling out to the Americans-

Chris RyanHost58:00

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost58:00

...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:00

but we don't know what he's being interro- who's interrogating him and why he's in a hospital bed.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:04

That's the, that's the conceit.

Chris RyanHost58:05

That's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:05

In this season, I believe it's the, it's the confession.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:08

Um, I thought it showed great restraint that it didn't, uh, do that for the entire season.

Chris RyanHost58:14

I agree.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:15

Um, and the things that it did pull from The Bureau made me excited, like, like in this case, Poppy's relationship with Dozer is her name in the American version.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:25

But in the French version, the daughter has a relatio- a surprising relationship with one of the C- one of the minders.

Chris RyanHost58:31

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:32

Um, and it's sort of like this weird found family thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:36

I, I think the show did such...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:40

Well, uh, let me address the other thing before we get to the other compliments.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:43

The other thing was the Da- was the Danny plot.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:45

I found it broadly as interesting as the first one.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:51

And this is, maybe it's just personal taste.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:52

I think Sara Lightfoot Lyon, who plays Danny, I liked her.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:55

I was more compelled by her-

Chris RyanHost58:56

She's great

Andy GreenwaldHost58:56

... as an actor.

Chris RyanHost58:57

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:57

No disrespect to the, the, the French woman from the original series, but I just thought she has such a vibrancy-

Chris RyanHost59:04

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost59:04

... and, and passion that you see.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:07

Like, she can play big so that when she's playing small, you're really, really laser focused on watching her.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:13

I did think, and I can't tell if it's just the nature of the show, in my mind, the second season was so expansive of The Bureau, and I remember what felt like really long set pieces and a lot of time spent in Iran in different ways, slow building-

Chris RyanHost59:30

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost59:30

... what that relationship became, and it felt rushed in this season.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:35

Th- I don't know if that's rushed because I was fast-forwarding in my mind.

Chris RyanHost59:38

Maybe we're, like, in some weird ways the wrong people to talk about the agency-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:39

Probably

Chris RyanHost59:40

... because, like, I don't know that we can un-tether ourselves to the original show.

Chris RyanHost59:45

You know, I'll, I'll talk about some stuff that really worked for me.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:47

Okay.

Chris RyanHost59:48

Um, the entire Valhalla thing and Owen and Robin I thought was awesome, and I thought, um, tying it into American right-wing extremism but also, like, letting Owen kind of be this desk jockey who-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:05

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:00:05

... gets cocky and wants to become a field agent, not unlike the, the, the original series.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:09

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:00:09

But Magaro is so good in this show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:11

He really is.

Chris RyanHost1:00:11

And, um, I specifically really enjoyed his conversations, brief as they may have been, with, um, Harriet Sampson, the...

Chris RyanHost1:00:20

Dr. Blake.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:00:21

Uh, with...

Chris RyanHost1:00:24

I, I thought she brought such a cool quirk to it.

Chris RyanHost1:00:28

I mean, that is one of the things that you really have to get around, is the idea of, like, a therapist walking around a spy agency and getting people who keep secrets for a living to just constantly-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:37

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:00:37

... speak in total vulnerabilities.

Chris RyanHost1:00:39

But I thought her scenes with Fassbender and her scenes with Magaro were, were some of my favorites.

Chris RyanHost1:00:45

Um, but the entire, the Africa, the Central African-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:49

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:00:49

...

Chris RyanHost1:00:49

Republic diamond mining, Antwerp-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:51

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:00:52

... like, all of that stuff was really awesome and really well-played.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:55

Shout out Clive Crawford from Rectify-

Chris RyanHost1:00:57

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:57

... as, as Viking.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:58

The...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:59

You mentioned the, the, the, the therapy scenes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:01

Like- You and I read these books, spy fiction, and watch these shows for the, for the clear out iso moments when Len Deighton or John le Carré or recently Oliver Harris can really let us know what's going on with these people.

Chris RyanHost1:01:16

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:16

And what excited me about those scenes, especially in the back half of the season, was you could feel the Butterworths starting to, starting to vibe out on that a little bit.

Chris RyanHost1:01:24

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:01:24

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:24

And there's the Dr. Sampson scene with Naomi where she says, and I, I wanted to write this down before we did our pod, where she says, "Two sorts of people are drawn to this work: those who wish to be someone else, and those who are unable to be a person in the first place."

Chris RyanHost1:01:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:36

And it's like, my God, that's George Smiley's music.

Chris RyanHost1:01:39

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:39

You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost1:01:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:40

It's just connecting it to this v- to this great tradition of, like, sweeping, bombastic psychological statements about the broken people who take it upon themselves to fix the world, and th- th- the show elevated on that for me.

Chris RyanHost1:01:55

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:56

Uh-

Chris RyanHost1:01:56

Yeah, the, the...

Chris RyanHost1:01:57

There's a, a couple of moments also spy to spy in, in this season, but specifically there's one, it's kind of when everything is about to collapse on Henry, and he and Naomi are-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:09

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:02:09

... walking from the floor into his office, and she's like, "Let's go." Like, "Let's bring down Martian."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:15

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:02:15

And he's like, "You can't go too soon because of this, and you can't wait too long because then you become a target." And he's just, like, trying to-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:23

If you miss an apex predator.

Chris RyanHost1:02:24

Yeah, basically, like, trying to explain why they have to time their move against Martian perfectly, and they, they don't time it perfectly because obviously, um, the MI6 guys are working against them.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:35

What about Naomi and, um, and Osman, played by Kurt Egyiawan, who's also on House of the Dragon, and like, that, that's an incredible scene where they're both saying, "Let's not do the thing that you do, that I do also."

Chris RyanHost1:02:45

Yeah, let's not, like, play for, play for, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:48

Positioning

Chris RyanHost1:02:48

... positioning, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:50

A- a- a- and, you know, the, the thing about this show, I w- again, I agree with you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:54

I wish they went further with this, but it is so, like all great, truly great spy fiction, it is very, um, unsentimental about the way that people just get crushed up and used.

Chris RyanHost1:03:06

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:06

And that's what I meant by, like, the Danny scene where, you know, the rescue we kinda knew was gonna happen, but the moment of almost needlessly killing the gas station attendant and then seeing the photo of him with his family laughing-

Chris RyanHost1:03:17

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:18

... and, and there is nothing heroic about what any of these people are doing in a way that I find really compelling.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:23

Um, broadly speaking, I, I'd like to think that we use our platform here for, for good when possible.

Chris RyanHost1:03:30

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:32

I would like to implore someone more powerful and richer than us to pick this show up and make more.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:39

We do not know that it is canceled.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:41

It is not officially canceled.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:42

There could be negotiations being h- made right now that'll

Chris RyanHost1:03:44

And it might not be that Paramount doesn't want it as much as, like, that now because of the way, whatever reasons, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:50

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:03:50

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:50

this, this cast is like, "I, I'm not gonna be available for nine months to live in L- England." You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:55

It, it, it's just strikes me as such an...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:57

It would strike me as such a deeply unfortunate fumble.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:01

Things happen all the time, and good shows get canceled, and good stories don't get resolved, and good intentions don't get met, but you've put together something here that is not only incredibly special, but is kind of just getting going.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:14

And-

Chris RyanHost1:04:14

That's, it's on the precipice of, of being awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:04:17

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:17

And the difference is it's not asking some other rich-pocketed tech company or streaming service to take a chance on the Butterworth brothers, who by the way, studios have taken chances on before.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:30

It's, it's-

Chris RyanHost1:04:30

Clearly Paramount is, is very much in business with them, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:33

... it's the fact that you have a roadmap.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:36

You have three more seasons of one of the greatest shows of all time to draw from, and if your concerns w- were that the show is too chilly, too cerebral, too this or too that, the end of this season should remind you that the Fassbender action season is beginning.

Chris RyanHost1:04:53

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:54

And he clearly likes doing that stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:56

And frankly, he...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:59

The fact that Matthew Casavettes was doing it I found really interesting-

Chris RyanHost1:05:02

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:03

... because it's not the natural fit or what you'd expect.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:06

Fassbender seems like he's waited 19 episodes-

Chris RyanHost1:05:09

And he loves wearing hooded sweatshirts and executing dudes.

Chris RyanHost1:05:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:05:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:12

It just seems like he's waited 19 episodes to go full Prince of Persia.

Chris RyanHost1:05:15

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:05:15

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:15

Do you know what I mean? Like, so you have this.

Chris RyanHost1:05:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:18

You have it all teed up.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:20

Let, l- let them bring it home, Mr. Ellison.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:24

[laughs] Let them finish this.

Chris RyanHost1:05:27

Are you willing to change your, uh, your feeling on the merger if they bring this back?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:32

Well, look, I think we've all...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:33

Tempers have cooled.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:33

There's a cooling off period.

Chris RyanHost1:05:35

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:35

We've all paused here.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:36

I, but I agree.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:37

I will accept a-

Chris RyanHost1:05:37

I don't know Rob Bonta

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:39

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:39

I will accept a temporary restraining order-

Chris RyanHost1:05:41

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:41

... on my penchant for class warfare if they...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:47

Yeah, I think we ta- when we first talked about this, we were talking about how no matter how we felt specifically about the show or the season, like, we just feel like in a multi-billion dollar global arms race for content, there should be a place for a show like this.

Chris RyanHost1:05:59

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:00

But what's maddening is you have it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:03

I know it must be incredibly top-heavy and expensive, and this cast is outrageous, and shooting in five countries, and navigating people's schedules, and paying George Clooney and Grant Heslov their EP fees, and everything else.

Chris RyanHost1:06:13

And Heslov directed a couple episodes this season.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:14

And he did really well.

Chris RyanHost1:06:15

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:15

There was some beautiful direction in this episode where, like, there was a shot he had where stuff's going down, and then it just isolates Naomi in the-

Chris RyanHost1:06:21

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:21

... bullpen.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:22

Um, the action was really well directed.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:25

It's not an easy show to make, I'm sure, but, like, you guys are making it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:29

And, and yet when I went back to, to review some of the episodes this morning briefly, I, I mean, I, again, I don't...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:36

No one knows what this means, but it's not even in Paramount's top 10.

Chris RyanHost1:06:39

Mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:40

It...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:41

I, I feel like, I'm not saying these, these services aren't on the up and up, but I feel like Apple at least is like, if there's a moment for a show to be doing well, they'll give it a little top 10 nudge.

Chris RyanHost1:06:52

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:06:53

I, I, I, you know, this, this speaks to the difficulty in, like, getting people...

Chris RyanHost1:06:59

Everybody who watches Lioness should watch The Agency.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:02

Right.

Chris RyanHost1:07:02

You know what I mean? Like, that, that should, there, there should not be a huge disparity between the audience for Lioness coming back next week.

Chris RyanHost1:07:09

And- ... and the agency.

Chris RyanHost1:07:11

Like, if you, if you enjoy spy stories, if you enjoy complicated people trying to figure out their allegiances, like, you would love this show.

Chris RyanHost1:07:19

But it's a little bit denser, and there's fewer-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:22

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:07:22

... action set pieces, for sure, and there's way more plot lines.

Chris RyanHost1:07:25

I mean, I was talking to Bill about it this weekend.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:27

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:07:27

And he was just like, "It's just, there's just too many people in the show," you know? And I was like, "All right.

Chris RyanHost1:07:30

Well, I think at a different time, like, if this was up against, like, after The Sopranos, you'd be able to follow it." But, like, for...

Chris RyanHost1:07:37

Something has kind of-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:38

It-

Chris RyanHost1:07:38

... changed about the mechanics of watching these.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:40

It, it, it's also, I'll say that there were...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:43

I'm not pretending the show's perfect, and I'm not pretending it was a perfectly positioned adaptation, because I think the thing that really hooks people into Le Bureau is that initially, before it's anything else, it's a love story about star-crossed lovers trying to get back to each other.

Chris RyanHost1:07:59

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:00

And then it becomes everything else.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:02

And I think Jodie Smith-Turner really steps up in this season.

Chris RyanHost1:08:05

I thought she was quite excellent this season.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:07

I thought she was incredible.

Chris RyanHost1:08:08

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:09

And there's a lot more road for that character to travel as well.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:12

But I, I have to say that I've never fully been invested, because Fassbender is like...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:18

Like, Paul Lewis seems like a, kind of a chilly prick, too.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:20

Do you know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost1:08:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:08:21

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:21

Like, I, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:22

You don't see him turn it on and turn it off, and they don't have many opportunities to rekindle the spark.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:27

So I don't feel, as an audience member, the same, like, yearning desire for this to work despite all of the betrayal and treason.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:34

And I think that that might be a necessary building block to get people to buy in so that they can understand.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:39

I mean, there's a line, there's a line in this episode right before Fassbender executes Paddington's dad-

Chris RyanHost1:08:45

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:45

... um, where I had to put the subtitles on, and he's basically saying, "How long have you been taking the chairman's... " And there's a very specific Chinese word.

Chris RyanHost1:08:54

Ren- renbi.

Chris RyanHost1:08:55

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:55

Yes, of, like, the, like, quid pro quo.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:57

Like-

Chris RyanHost1:08:57

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:57

... like, like...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:58

And I'm like, "You're asking the audience to unpack that line with or without subtitles.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:04

Like, good for you."

Chris RyanHost1:09:05

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:05

But that is not a Taylor Sheridan show in terms of what it's asking the audience.

Chris RyanHost1:09:08

I do wonder whether or not I would feel differently about it, because I think that the...

Chris RyanHost1:09:14

Fassbender's casting, for as much as I adore him-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:16

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:09:16

... as a performer, is challenging at times.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:18

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:09:19

And I do wonder what would happen if you had gone with, like, say, Peter Sarsgaard-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:23

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:09:23

... who is a very Matthew McCau-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:26

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:09:26

... vitz-esque American actor.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:27

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:09:28

And, you know, perhaps a little bit older than you would want to play Martian, but still, like, has that, like...

Chris RyanHost1:09:35

Looks like an English teacher, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:37

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:09:37

... you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:38

I mean, he-

Chris RyanHost1:09:38

... moves like a killer.

Chris RyanHost1:09:39

You know? Like that, it ha- There, there's...

Chris RyanHost1:09:41

You see Michael Fassbender, you're like, "You are the fucking killer.

Chris RyanHost1:09:44

You are literally the killer in the-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:46

It-

Chris RyanHost1:09:46

...

Chris RyanHost1:09:46

David Fincher movie.

Chris RyanHost1:09:47

I have no doubt that you're, like, eating protein in the backseat of a car getting ready to kill the head of MI6." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:52

And when everybody is like, um, "You're the greatest liar who's ever existed," I'm like, "Yes, he is."

Chris RyanHost1:09:57

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:58

It's the first thing I think about him.

Chris RyanHost1:09:59

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:00

Or I mean, thank God, you know, Viking, it's, it's a tough way to go, although if you go out doing what you love, and he did love, uh, chess and overthrowing [laughs] African republics.

Chris RyanHost1:10:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:11

But when he's just like, "You are not a weasel," I'm like, "Yeah." If that guy got-

Chris RyanHost1:10:17

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:10:17

When he's like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:17

... off the plane, and it's like, "I work for a diamond merchant in Antwerp, but I'm not even the boss"-

Chris RyanHost1:10:22

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:23

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:23

I would keep him away from all sharp objects.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:25

I would keep him away from magazines thinking-

Chris RyanHost1:10:26

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:26

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:26

he was gonna Jason Bourne my ass.

Chris RyanHost1:10:28

Um, Viking, man.

Chris RyanHost1:10:30

Lived as he...

Chris RyanHost1:10:30

Died as he lived.

Chris RyanHost1:10:31

Uh, let's, uh, take a quick break, and then we're gonna do House of the Dragon really quick.

House of the Dragon S3 E8 reactions1:10:37 – 1:22:03

Chris RyanHost1:10:37

Okay, we're back.

Chris RyanHost1:10:37

Let's talk about Dragon.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:38

Okay.

Chris RyanHost1:10:39

Uh, we don't need to belabor this one because I imagine you did not care for it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:44

Wasn't my favorite hour in the beginning.

Chris RyanHost1:10:45

Uh, well, we're watching Mal and Joe's, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:47

I'd like to hear about this

Chris RyanHost1:10:48

... they...

Chris RyanHost1:10:48

Well, uh, you can on House of R.

Chris RyanHost1:10:50

Uh, they, they talked extensively about...

Chris RyanHost1:10:53

Last night on Talk of the Thrones about, like, their issues with this episode.

Chris RyanHost1:10:57

Some of which were adaptative.

Chris RyanHost1:10:58

Is that a word?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:00

I'll allow it.

Chris RyanHost1:11:00

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:01

Emily Wilson would not allow it.

Chris RyanHost1:11:02

[laughs] Some of them were just basic storytelling, like how did that guy get from there to there in-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:08

Right

Chris RyanHost1:11:08

... successive scenes.

Chris RyanHost1:11:10

Um, enjoyed the Larys, Aegon stuff as usual.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:14

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:11:15

Uh, RIP to my guy Criston Cole.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:17

Well, I wanna talk about that.

Chris RyanHost1:11:18

Uh, D- Detective Grasso, may you, may you, may you continue to patrol Bucks County.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:23

I don't wanna spoil anything, but he's survived worse.

Chris RyanHost1:11:27

[laughs] That's true.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:28

Do you know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost1:11:28

That's true.

Chris RyanHost1:11:29

Uh, what did you make of this episode?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:32

Well, I, I, I guess I'm really curious more to hear your perspective, a little bit in the know, a little bit on the outs, you know? Because I didn't particularly find...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:43

I didn't find anything particularly different in this episode than the ones that have been boring me for the last few weeks, and so I don't really wanna belabor those points.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:50

It's just, it's a lot more like now we're here, now we're there, now we're here, now we're there-

Chris RyanHost1:11:53

I think that-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:54

... and court business

Chris RyanHost1:11:54

... my issue with it was just that they're, they're having the same conversations every episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:58

Over and over.

Chris RyanHost1:11:58

And it's like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:58

Particularly the Rhaenyra, Alicent conversations being the same ones, referring to the same one.

Chris RyanHost1:12:01

And the Rhaenyra and Daemon conversation.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:03

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:12:03

And, you know, like, it's a lot of people being like, "What should we do next?"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:06

Yeah, and, and holding their breath for the big things they have to deploy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:09

And so you can almost feel the same hand of, no pun intended, of, of plotting that, you know, put the, the battles at the top and then tries to...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:20

It basically tries to play with timing and surprise, and you feel that with what happens to Ser Criston Cole.

Chris RyanHost1:12:26

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:26

Um, but I was just sort of... felt very little from that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:30

Like, it did...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:31

I, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:31

It felt more manipulative to me to have it begin an episode, because what I felt was the a- the, the, the galaxy brain plotting of, like, "The audience won't expect this," and yet what it did was just more remind me that this was a road to nowhere anyway.

Chris RyanHost1:12:47

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:47

And, and, and now the show has highlighted that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:50

The show has not pretended...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:51

You know, his speech last week about how we're all going on a suicide mission now did not make it seem like there was a happy ending in store.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:58

But the, the, the, the, the general feeling that I struggle with week to week, and frankly I'm sure people are as tired of hearing me say it as I am of, of saying it, is like I feel like the show presents a series of boxes and then checks them.

Chris RyanHost1:13:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:13:11

Boxes is a- ... word that I wanna jump on here.

Chris RyanHost1:13:13

'Cause I think I've tried to articulate this in various ways over the couple weeks, and this is obviously, like, I think that this is my favorite season of the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:22

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:13:22

Favorite.

Chris RyanHost1:13:23

Uh, but it's unfair to compare it one-to-one to Game of Thrones, but Game of Thrones probably didn't have a spectacularly different scene-to-scene, um, difference in what people were doing, you know? Uh, often talking, you know.

Chris RyanHost1:13:41

Uh, I think what I'm craving is either scenery or, or like, I, I w- I wish that more of these conversations could be happening in different places-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:52

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:13:53

... than throne room, chambers, Harrenhal.

Chris RyanHost1:13:58

Like, in the dark woods somewhere.

Chris RyanHost1:14:00

Like, part of the thing that made Thrones so great is because they would put these pairs of characters, uh, out on the road somewhere trying to get from-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:08

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:14:08

... one place to the north, or from Essos back to whatever and, you know, Dorne and all these places.

Chris RyanHost1:14:14

It was, like, such an expansive portrait of this imaginary world-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:19

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:14:19

... that no matter what people were talking about, it was cool to look at.

Chris RyanHost1:14:24

And it seemed like what they were looking at or where they were-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:27

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:14:27

... would influence the nature of the conversations and change the nature of the relationships.

Chris RyanHost1:14:32

And because so many of these characters are trapped by their own power, I mean, even Ormund has basically been in, like, a dining room for-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:39

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:14:39

... three episodes now, uh, smelling things.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:42

Eating or barfing.

Chris RyanHost1:14:43

Eating or drinking.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:43

It's either going in or out.

Chris RyanHost1:14:45

And for as exciting as that sword fight was, I thought that was an awesome scene.

Chris RyanHost1:14:49

I was like, yeah, but it's like, this is...

Chris RyanHost1:14:52

I, I don't know.

Chris RyanHost1:14:53

It's just, this is all happening in one of three places.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:55

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:14:55

And I, I think one thing that Thrones really successfully avoided was even though the battles were huge takeout episodes, I don't really...

Chris RyanHost1:15:08

I, I never really sat around being like, "When's the battle gonna happen?" On Game of Thrones.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:11

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:15:11

Until the very end.

Chris RyanHost1:15:13

And on Dragon, I feel like they're almost overshadowing the entire series.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:16

Yeah, it's reverse engineered the wrong way.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:17

We were talking, this is the third reference to Banshee on this podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:21

Lonnie Peristere, who directed and started his, I think started his career on Banshee, directed this episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:25

He's directed other episodes-

Chris RyanHost1:15:27

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:27

... of Dragon.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:28

The action sequences are incredibly well done.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:31

There are moments, you know, like, just, just like th- that whole opening sequence where there-

Chris RyanHost1:15:35

The, the-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:35

There's the ambush-

Chris RyanHost1:15:36

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:36

... and the surprise attack.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:39

It...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:39

If, if you were someone who cared deeply about sword or mace combat, you would be so delighted with this episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:46

You would have nothing else to complain about.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:47

That's not my bag, and then frankly, [laughs] coming off of The Odyssey, I'm ready to address all of this town's Foley experts-

Chris RyanHost1:15:53

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:54

... with a plea of, like, can we find a different sound for swords entering people's bodies?

Chris RyanHost1:15:58

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:58

Like, I think that we iterated a lot in the last decade, and it's real crunchy now, and you really get the sense of metal on metal-

Chris RyanHost1:16:04

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:04

... and metal on bone.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:05

And there's never a stabbing that isn't just, like...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:09

Like, I remember w- like, doing, when I was in Foley for my show, and you see a character smoke a cigarette, they're like, "Let's sweeten that cherry up a little bit."

Chris RyanHost1:16:15

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:15

You know? And you make every cigarette s- sound like it's the greatest.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:19

Yeah, it's like you fucking-

Chris RyanHost1:16:19

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:20

... it's like it sounds like Matthew McConaughey breathing-

Chris RyanHost1:16:22

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:22

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:22

in True Detective.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:24

Um, they're doing that with the sword fighting.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:26

And God bless them, but, like, maybe we can do something different now.

Chris RyanHost1:16:29

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:29

Like, we're, we're ready.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:30

I don't know what that sound is.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:31

Maybe experts will come in and say, "Well, it's a perfect combination of, like, metal on metal and, like, wood snapping and also, I don't know, kittens dying." I, like, th- that's, like, very, very accurate.

Chris RyanHost1:16:40

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:40

I'm sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:41

But, uh, it's, it's, that, that is what the show excels at.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:45

And I think that the l- the larger thing that will continue to be...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:50

I'm not pre- I'm not pretending.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:51

I don't like the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:51

I've never liked the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:52

You can tune out now if you want.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:54

But I will continue to say that the idea of stakes is still often misunderstood by people when we're talking about television shows, and the reason, one, there are many reasons why Game of Thrones was excellent for a wide audience for many years.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:08

But on a very, very, very, um, specific level, its reason for greatness is the same why, reason why The Pit is great, which is because you feel like you are watching something where the stake, not the stakes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:19

Where the, um, yeah, well, in this case, like, the stakes are that the world or someone's life will never be the same after this.

Chris RyanHost1:17:27

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:28

In Game of Thrones, it was like a prophecy is going to change the world forever.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:32

Winter is coming.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:33

The status quo is going to end, and we are going to tell that story of the end of this version of this world.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:39

And we didn't know what w- we didn't know where it was coming from or how it would affect people, but we saw people journeying with that knowledge towards that, towards that end.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:47

You know, similarly, like, there's a version of a show like Lanterns, which we're excited about, which would be like, guess what? These guys are space cops, and this year's season is there's a-

Chris RyanHost1:17:56

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:56

... space cop murderer.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:58

Or it's like this guy is no longer going to be a space cop, and this is his replacement, and this is the most existential threat these space cops have ever faced in the history of their space coping existence.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:09

I'm leaning in.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:10

What are your intentions here? And the fact with House of the Dragon is the lesson every character learns every episode is that it can always get worse.

Chris RyanHost1:18:17

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:18

And what's the meta story here? I mean, a macro story here.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:21

I've not spoiled my, uh, spoiled anything, but I've watched Game of Thrones, so guess what? I know the Targaryens fuck up and fail.

Chris RyanHost1:18:27

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:18:28

I think that there's elements of, I, we, we really don't need to get into a deep debate about this, but I do think that within those conversations that, say, Daemon is having with Rhaenyra or Rhaenyra's having with Alicent, that there's things about the nature of power that I find kind of interesting and how she could be successful.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:42

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:18:43

She would just have to be history's greatest monster.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:46

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:18:46

Like, she could achieve everything that she wants.

Chris RyanHost1:18:49

She would just have to burn Tumbleton to the ground.

Chris RyanHost1:18:52

And her re- reluctance to do that for whatever reasons, whether it's 'cause she's listening to Mysaria or-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:57

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:18:57

... she's listening to her better angels, I don't think is going to go great for her.

Chris RyanHost1:19:02

Um, and perhaps there it's difficult to tell a tragedy, 'cause I think that's ultimately what this is.

Chris RyanHost1:19:09

And telling a tragedy on television where- Half the people probably know the story, and half the people can guess what the story is.

Chris RyanHost1:19:16

And just based on what happens in Game of Thrones, you know, it, they don't sing great songs about Rhaenyra, the, the sweet and kind, [laughs] like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:24

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:19:24

... you know? Like, people are just kinda, like, w- watching.

Chris RyanHost1:19:27

They want well-executed tragedy, then.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:31

Well-

Chris RyanHost1:19:32

And, you know, one of the things that I thought was really odd about this episode was the Criston Cole thing happens in the beginning.

Chris RyanHost1:19:39

I think his viewers are like, "I've spent a lot of time with this character.

Chris RyanHost1:19:42

That was a dramatic and sort of thrilling death."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:46

Hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:19:46

And not a single other character on the show knows it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:48

Great point.

Chris RyanHost1:19:49

And-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:50

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:19:50

...

Chris RyanHost1:19:50

I know word travels in weird ways in this Westeros, where sometimes people seem to know exactly where everyone is, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:57

And what's happened

Chris RyanHost1:19:57

... get updates from ravens, and sometimes people are, like, waiting on information for quite some time.

Chris RyanHost1:20:02

But that just seems like something that would travel the kingdom pretty fast if the Hand of the King or Queen-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:09

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:20:09

... or whoever, you know, was, was murdered in battle.

Chris RyanHost1:20:14

And nobody seems to give a shit.

Chris RyanHost1:20:15

And he has connections to all sorts of people in the show, you know, be it their adversary, their-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:20

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:20:20

... lover, their betrayer, whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:22

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:20:23

And I thought that was strange, and I think that's a flaw of the show, that they're not, like, this leads to that, which leads to that, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:32

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:32

Uh, but I mean, I think it's just a flawed construction.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:34

They, they've done a lot of good work this season by putting characters in the same building as each other, which was impossible for them to do last year, so we're getting more of it, but not enough.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:43

And I just th- I think your point about tragedies was really interesting, because, uh, what are some of the greatest tragedies in the history of television? They're the greatest shows in the history of television.

Chris RyanHost1:20:52

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:52

The Sopranos is a tragedy.

Chris RyanHost1:20:54

Breaking Bad's a tragedy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:54

Breaking Bad is 100% a tragedy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:56

The Wire, in a way, is a tragedy that also found room for, you know, great moments of hope, levity, joy, emotion, all the, everything.

Chris RyanHost1:21:04

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:05

The tragedy of it is more compelling to me of a show like...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:08

And look, listen, I know we're doing, we're, like, in, entering hour two of a podcast of episode eight of season three of House of the Dragon, and I'm comparing it unfairly to one of the greatest shows of all time about cops in Baltimore.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:18

I get this is a little bit ludicrous, but the tragedy of that show is because people want to change things, and they struggle because change is very, very hard.

Chris RyanHost1:21:28

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:29

There is a version of Westeros that is that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:31

There's a version of Daenerys that was that, right? Like, that is not, that is not David Simon's proprietary idea, but the show also has to service these moments of made-up history and d- dragons per episode, and I don't...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:47

Everybody loses a little bit because of that.

Chris RyanHost1:21:49

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:49

It, it's, it's too, it's at once, um, is at once too broad and too specific in its aims.

Chris RyanHost1:21:56

Well, we won't be speaking about it again until after the finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:58

I think that's good.

Chris RyanHost1:21:59

And I think that's for the best.

Chris RyanHost1:22:00

So, uh, we'll be back on Thursday, regular show.

Sign-off & upcoming schedule1:22:03 – 1:22:41

Chris RyanHost1:22:03

And then next week, just so you guys know, mailbag on Monday, Anthony Bourdain special on Thursday, where we'll talk about some of our favorite episodes of his various shows, some of our-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:14

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:22:14

... favorite kind of extra Bourdain-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:16

This-

Chris RyanHost1:22:16

... pieces of culture, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:18

Does this mean we won't be covering, like, The Shard's premiere in real time? We're gonna have to wait a week on that?

Chris RyanHost1:22:23

I'm going live on Twitch for that.