John Vervaeke & Guy Sengstock: Why Modernity Can't See the Sacred Anymore

What does it mean to "see God again" after modernity has taught us to look for the sacred in all the wrong ways? In this special Lectern conversation, John Vervaeke is joined by Guy Sengstock for a deep reflection on John's three-part course trilogy, *Seeing God Again for the First Time*. John invited Guy to watch the courses and respond not only to their arguments, but to the way the courses enact a philosophical, phenomenological, and spiritual exercise. Guy begins from his own background as co-founder of Circling, describing how relational practice opened a mystery that psychological language could not fully hold, eventually leading him into Heidegger, phenomenology, and philosophy as contemplation. From there, he draws out the personal and pedagogical arc of John's work: teaching as encounter, as vulnerability, and as a way of revealing what students are already confronted with. John describes the course as an attempt to integrate rigorous argument, phenomenological exploration, and spiritual exercise in the spirit of Socrates, Plotinus, and Pierre Hadot. Rather than define religion or God and then argue for or against them, John sets out to deconstruct the modern grammar that blocks our ability to encounter sacredness at all: the fact/value, is/ought, subjective/objective, theory/data, and meaning/measurement dichotomies. The conversation moves through Paul Tillich, William Desmond, Wittgenstein, Heidegger, Catherine Pickstock, Janet Soskice, D.C. Schindler, and 4E cognitive science, showing how analytic philosophy, continental phenomenology, and cognitive science converge in undermining modernity's inherited picture. Guy and John explore sacredness as ultimately real, ultimately orienting, ultimately transformative, and ultimately resonant; naming as relational participation rather than possession; wonder as calling self and world into question; and aletheia as truth that discloses beauty, goodness, and intelligibility. The conversation closes with the contemporary stakes of this recovery: AI, consciousness, personhood, the meaning crisis, and the alignment problem. John argues that we can no longer treat philosophy and sacredness as academic luxuries when our technologies are reshaping cognition, identity, and agency. If we are creating new kinds of intelligence, the question is not merely how to bind them to us, but how to orient them - and ourselves - toward truth, goodness, beauty, intelligibility, and the sacred. Guy Sengstock is a co-founder of Circling and a longtime teacher of relational, dialogical, and contemplative practice. His work bridges phenomenology, philosophy, facilitation, and the lived mystery of interpersonal encounter. Explore courses and other offerings from The Lectern: https://lectern.teachable.com About The Lectern The Lectern is dedicated to wisdom cultivation through dialogue, inquiry, and transformative practices. Through courses, live events, and community conversations, we seek not merely to discuss ideas, but to explore how they can shape the way we live. 00:00 Welcome to The Lectern 01:00 Why Guy is reflecting on Seeing God Again 02:00 Guy introduces his background in Circling and philosophy 04:00 Circling, mystery, and the limits of psychological language 06:00 Heidegger, Being and Time, and philosophy as contemplation 09:00 John's Socratic and Plotinian aspirations 10:30 Argument, phenomenology, and spiritual exercise 12:00 Seeing God Again, pilgrimage, and the Philosophical Silk Road 13:00 John the person, scientist, philosopher, and teacher 15:00 Teaching as existential confrontation 17:00 The manner of teaching as part of the teaching 18:00 Modernity, the meaning crisis, and sacredness 20:00 When teaching became encounter 21:00 Paul Tillich, cognitive science, and teaching virtue 23:00 William Desmond and philosophy as spiritual exercise 25:00 Teaching toward a philosophical-spiritual end 26:00 Involving the whole self without becoming self-involved 29:00 Revealing what students are already confronted with 31:00 Teaching, social phobia, and vulnerability 33:00 The sacred as deep teaching 35:00 Idealization, temptation, and participation 38:00 Naming God and the loss of relational naming 41:00 The four dichotomies of modernity 42:00 Out-rigoring the rigor 44:00 Deconstructing the grammar that blocks sacredness 45:00 Mystical traditions as phenomenological exemplars 47:00 Modernity's vertical and horizontal dichotomies 49:00 Recovering sight beyond modernity's glasses 50:00 Sacredness as ultimately real, orienting, transformative, and resonant 52:00 Why John uses atheist scholarship before apologetics 53:00 Counter-modern thought and the limits of postmodernism 55:00 Why these dichotomies matter beyond academia 57:00 Everything Everywhere All at Once, nihilism, and value 01:01:00 Philosophy outside the ivory tower 01:02:00 Postmodernity and living in the ruins 01:04:00 Recovery and asking "Where are we?" 01:05:00 Wittgenstein, Heidegger, and recovering meaning 01:07:00 Modernity as icon rather than representation 01:08:00 Truth, goodness, beauty, and intelligibility 01:12:00 Wonder vs. curiosity 01:15:00 Aletheia, beauty, liberation, and onto-normativity 01:18:00 Seeing God Again as pilgrimage 01:19:00 Theoria as theory, contemplation, and pilgrimage 01:21:00 AI, analytic philosophy, and consciousness 01:24:00 Meaning, relevance, and the limits of computation 01:26:00 AI personhood and disembodied embodiment 01:30:00 Why philosophy matters for technologies shaping us 01:32:00 AI agents, personhood, and the coming ontological crisis 01:35:00 The meaning crisis and the loss of sacred orientation 01:37:00 Personhood, ontology, and responsibility 01:39:00 The alignment problem and binding intelligence to the sacred 01:40:00 Why the course must be taken as a course 01:41:00 Teacher assistance, Socratic process, and future retreats 01:42:00 Socratic Salon and participatory practice 01:43:00 Closing reflections on retreat and relationship Thank you for listening!