Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

So so for people who've never heard of it and don't know what the hell we're talking about.

Yes.

What what it often looks like.

Right.

You can't just constantly rely on someone else to keep you cotton wool all the time no because life isn't like that

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting because, you know, one of the things that, um, w- has been, has been probably the most, uh, I've learned the most through circling all these years, uh, and circling is, you know, basically a relational, it's a, it's, it's a way of practicing the depth of relationship basically.

Um, and it's, uh, it kind of happened on its own.

No one was gonna start a thing.

No one had an intention to do a thing.

Just the thing started happening, and it kinda took on a life of its own, and now it's all over the world.

Yes.

Maybe the best moments.

Yeah.

I would say, well, you know, I'd say the thing that opened everything up for me or what kind of got everything started.

I grew up in Chicago.

I mean, both my parents had a pretty rough upbringing.

Both my parents were alcoholics and drug addicts and amazing people, but really suffered from their addictions.

And it's really, really crazy.

then you go

yeah exactly

right you either did it or you didn't right you either like did the training and did the work and achieved the the actual thing there's something so reality um disclosing about it right that uh that that particular relationship over and over and over and over again like really does teach you about the world right in a very you know concrete way I would say it's a lot very similar for me this was I you know I think about like if I hadn't started gotten into lifting weights when I was because I started when I was 11 with my dad at the gym and man, I think about of all the things I've done in meditation and all the different stuff I've studied, the thing that's made the biggest difference is that, right? So for me, there was...

I had a learning disorder, grew up in a pretty crazy alcoholic family, a lot of instability, emotional instability.

Everything that came along with that came along with that for me.

And my dad brought me, I remember my dad brought me to the gym.

We lived in Downers Grove, just outside of Chicago.

And Carlton Fisk, who's kind of a famous, he's famous for hitting this home run in the playoffs in Boston, but he retired as a White Sox, Chicago White Sox.

It's like, no, it's, there's a lot of consilience around this fact.

I'll pause there.

Thank you, Paul.

We should probably just warn people.

john that those uh those same studies don't indicate fire is good if you like set your house on fire it doesn't work the same way right okay we'll put that in the we'll put that in the asterisks um yeah thanks for thanks for lighting that up the the whole the course it really came across i i think about this in in a sense that uh And sometimes Kyle is tending to the earth, right? And our connection to the earth, which by the way, in itself is something that is surprisingly foreign to us, strangely, because we kind of live there.

But in this sense of, in the sense that when we're always around human-made cultural things, we're always around beings that are made, but then there's being around beings that are born.

When you go into nature and you dwell in nature, We all, well, we kind of all know, right, when we, if we're messed up about something like, you know, or stressed out, we all know.

It's like, well, if we go for a walk in the woods, everyone knows that, yeah, that'll be a good idea, right? I always thought, well, like, why is that a good idea? Is it just...

that's the difference

So let's talk about what's coming up for you as I say this.

Yeah.

I mean, there's so many...

This is so rich with paradox.

I wouldn't say contradiction, right? I'd say...

It's so, there's something so paradoxical, right? You know, it's like if we say, if I get isolated and on some level I lose something that I am, that's a strange thing to say, right? I lose myself, right? When I'm not around, what did I just say, right? Because it's, we're talking about something that actually is, is between things, right? This betweenness.

And when we lose contact with that, we just get really, we have, we get crazy, right? We get really nutty in these and have kind of symptoms for it.

Because I'd love for people to hear about if they want to get involved in circling or how they can find you and I know you have a free gift and any parting words because I would love for people to, be able to partake in what you offer and actually practice.

[laughs]

Um, yeah, thanks for, thanks for lighting that up, the, the, the whole, of course, it really came across.

I, I think about this in a, in a sense that, uh...

And sometimes Kyle is tending to the Earth, right? And our connection to the Earth, which by the way, um, it, in itself is something that is surprisingly foreign to us, strangely, [laughs] 'cause we kinda live there.

Um, but in this sense of, in this sense that when we're always around kind of human-made cultural things, right? We're always around beings that are made.

But then there's being around beings that are born, right? And so when you go into nature, and you are, and you dwell in nature, we all, well, we kinda all know, right? When we, if we're messed up about something, like, you know, or, or stressed out, w- w- we, we all know.

It's like, well, if we go to go for a walk in the woods, everyone knows that, yeah, that'll be a good idea, right? I always thought, well, like, why is that a good idea? How, how...

Yeah, yeah.

Um, I say more of it cause I'm curious, but I have such an opinion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's kind of like this.

It's like, uh, you know, in some of this insight came from like being struck by like, why did circling within about 10 years go all over the world? That was really perplexing to me, right? Because, you know, the people involved were by no means like, you know, a symbol of, you know, emotional health.

Exactly.

We definitely weren't good business people.

from a place of wonder and listening and see what happens

Say a little bit about yourself and then take us away.

Yeah.

First of all, it's just, it's so...

On so many different levels, it's ecstatic for me just being here with you and connecting with you again, just like in our personal friendship and just the sense of familiarity that my nervous system has with you and our shared history together.

And that's really there.

And just a deep respect for your work and you know the depth and breadth of your work i think goes without saying right um and what's particularly honorable about getting to do this with you about this course right seeing god again for the first time you know in some ways for me this brings the depth of your work and in some in some real way uh who you are personally together Right? And so I just really appreciate the opportunity just to, in some sense, bring that out, right, into relief.

Because I think what you're doing in this lecture is it's not just a lecture, right? It's not just a professing or being informed because the very process of the lecture is in some ways the point of the lecture, right? um and i want to talk about i really want to get into like what how did that how did that come about and what does that exemplify right and all the things connected to that Just a little bit about me.

I thought it was Montana.

Um, and we are now going to enter into hopefully a shared cognitive space around this.

You know, I guess I'll just throw out a little bit of what got us to this to this framing of normativity.

As you all know, now I actually live outside of the Bay Area, but I go in once a week back into San Francisco because I've started with a friend of mine, Eric Newton, a AM radio talk show.

really what else what yeah what else does one do at 53 but starting an am radio talk show right obviously and eric is uh eric is um the co-founder of an institute uh with your um joseph bach And they're working specifically on the notion of not general intelligence, but on consciousness as such, right? So they have a whole institute around that.

and and then just my circles of people that i've been around for you know years and in in in in the bay area and all that stuff that we've ended up the show is called your link your leaking timeline right so talk about normativity right and the idea the the idea of the show was is is basically to And it's an AM radio show.

It's a sports network.

It's it's like worldly syndicated.

And, um, but Jordan's right in the, in the sense that, you know, if, if someone is going to, to nominalize what is meant, what is conveyed to what is spoken, um, and they're going to retreat from dialogue on that basis, um, then the the task of the task of insisting at them is it begins to feel like a fool's errand