Oct 27, 2026 · 1 hr 1 min · 13 segments
Tom Overton is perhaps the worlds eminent researcher of John Berger. Alongside close to a decade of friendship, Overton has worked with Berger's personal archives for 15 years, giving him a unique…
Tom OvertonGuestOmari EdwardsHostCharlesHostI think, I think, I think that's a really interesting insight and, and actually answers one of my questions, which was, you know, the, the drawing from life, uh, element.
But I think one of the things that I found most interesting because, um, again, I know perhaps you don't want to have to repeat it for a second time, but, um, you have previously discussed, and I think it's quite apparent in the book that, you know, your, your gloss on the man, um, your understanding of John, um, changes both through access to the archives and being able to contrast that with his own story, but then also meeting, uh, discussing with, uh, the people who knew him, the people around him, and even, even the, the, uh, the discussion of him as a storyteller, uh, is something that um you know you you don't take straightforwardly i think it's you know in the introduction you're you're quite clear in that you know this is a self-conception and perhaps one that might might need a second look um i i thought it was very interesting that um you were given the insight both through the man and the relationships, but then also the archive to look at John and see the image of him that is distinct from his self-portrait.
So did you think there was, you know, was there some particular value in having this, you know, slightly outsider perspective, which I think influences the way that you also write the book, but also then having some intimacy with the subject?
Oscillating is quite the right word, but there is this constant tension between proximity and distance.
And one of the ways I started thinking about it was discovering quite late in the process that he himself thought that he had... too differently he had one eye that was uh short-sighted and one eye that was long-sighted and that sort of became a sort of like a motif to me in the sort of like they're taking a you know the a broader picture and then a very very intensely closed picture because that was he and he did work on these two different time scales and the two different sort of planes but Yeah, it's interesting because I think there is something to be gained.
It's one of the lessons of his writing, I think, is how much can be gained from a really intense, close focus.
But you then have to take a step back and put things into a context or it loses all meaning.
yeah maybe depth perception is the way of trying to continue that kind of metaphor about the two differently focused eyes but yeah I the storyteller thing is I mean I should say that I think that doesn't mean that he's what I'm saying there is not that he that some of that his fiction is is without merit i think i think he's um here's where he meets and the the peasant trilogy on some of his you know the great texts in sort of in any any language really but the and there's an enormous skill to them but i don't think the skill resides in narrative necessarily i think it's in those sort of moments of focus and relation um But yeah, I had to, and he was, there's a kind of, there was a kind of seduction inherent in everything that John does.
And he thinks this through in the, in the novel G and also in the book about Picasso.
And it's obviously a big theme in his life in all sorts of ways, but there's, there's the, and he, you know, he was an enormously compelling, uh, person to talk to and it's balancing the being sort of drawn in like that and also taking a step back and putting it in context and realizing how many people were drawn in like that but there is something I don't think also That's what, I mean, maybe that's the reason I didn't want to write an academic book because I think there's also, I think there's something very lifeless in sort of, in completely discounting the value of seduction.
Like there's kind of like what you, you know, when we are moved by a piece of art or a book or a song or a poem or a play, like there's, there is an element of that's what's going on.
And, you know, if you take an entirely rational view of what's going on, then you won't be moved by it at all.
But at the same time, there needs to be a kind of issue doing something like a biography that has to take a broad historical scope.
I think, I think, I think that's a really interesting insight and, and actually answers one of my questions, which was, you know, the, the drawing from life, uh, element.
But I think one of the things that I found most interesting because, um, again, I know perhaps you don't want to have to repeat it for a second time, but, um, you have previously discussed, and I think it's quite apparent in the book that, you know, your, your gloss on the man, um, your understanding of John, um, changes both through access to the archives and being able to contrast that with his own story, but then also meeting, uh, discussing with, uh, the people who knew him, the people around him, and even, even the, the, uh, the discussion of him as a storyteller, uh, is something that um you know you you don't take straightforwardly i think it's you know in the introduction you're you're quite clear in that you know this is a self-conception and perhaps one that might might need a second look um i i thought it was very interesting that um you were given the insight both through the man and the relationships, but then also the archive to look at John and see the image of him that is distinct from his self-portrait.
So did you think there was, you know, was there some particular value in having this, you know, slightly outsider perspective, which I think influences the way that you also write the book, but also then having some intimacy with the subject?
Oscillating is quite the right word, but there is this constant tension between proximity and distance.
And one of the ways I started thinking about it was discovering quite late in the process that he himself thought that he had... too differently he had one eye that was uh short-sighted and one eye that was long-sighted and that sort of became a sort of like a motif to me in the sort of like they're taking a you know the a broader picture and then a very very intensely closed picture because that was he and he did work on these two different time scales and the two different sort of planes but Yeah, it's interesting because I think there is something to be gained.
It's one of the lessons of his writing, I think, is how much can be gained from a really intense, close focus.
But you then have to take a step back and put things into a context or it loses all meaning.
yeah maybe depth perception is the way of trying to continue that kind of metaphor about the two differently focused eyes but yeah I the storyteller thing is I mean I should say that I think that doesn't mean that he's what I'm saying there is not that he that some of that his fiction is is without merit i think i think he's um here's where he meets and the the peasant trilogy on some of his you know the great texts in sort of in any any language really but the and there's an enormous skill to them but i don't think the skill resides in narrative necessarily i think it's in those sort of moments of focus and relation um But yeah, I had to, and he was, there's a kind of, there was a kind of seduction inherent in everything that John does.
And he thinks this through in the, in the novel G and also in the book about Picasso.
And it's obviously a big theme in his life in all sorts of ways, but there's, there's the, and he, you know, he was an enormously compelling, uh, person to talk to and it's balancing the being sort of drawn in like that and also taking a step back and putting it in context and realizing how many people were drawn in like that but there is something I don't think also That's what, I mean, maybe that's the reason I didn't want to write an academic book because I think there's also, I think there's something very lifeless in sort of, in completely discounting the value of seduction.
Like there's kind of like what you, you know, when we are moved by a piece of art or a book or a song or a poem or a play, like there's, there is an element of that's what's going on.
And, you know, if you take an entirely rational view of what's going on, then you won't be moved by it at all.
But at the same time, there needs to be a kind of issue doing something like a biography that has to take a broad historical scope.
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