Apple Owns TV Right Now. Is That a Good Thing? Plus, ‘Cape Fear’ Series Premiere and ‘Star City’ Episode 3.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:00

[upbeat music] Hear the world come to life

Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

Beth and Rip are back in Dutton Ranch This life here is gonna work, isn't it? We'll make it work

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:10

[upbeat music] Hear the world come to life

Starring Kelly Reilly- A legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives ...

Cole Hauser- Let's go to work ... and Harris Family is the only thing worth fighting for And Annette Bening

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:21

I can make this a lot harder for all y'all

Then peace will have to wait Dutton Ranch.

New series now streaming on Paramount Plus

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:29

[upbeat music] Wish you could skip this ad? We get it.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:36

Wish you could just skip to retirement? We got you.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:42

Cooperators can help you hit play on your financial future.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:46

Cooperators.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:48

Get investments, insurance, and advice from someone who gets you.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:53

Oh.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:54

Oh.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:54

Oh.

Kaya McMullenPanelist0:55

Terms and conditions apply.

Kaya McMullenPanelist1:00

[upbeat music]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00

[dramatic music] I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05

Stand up and walk, now.

Chris RyanHost1:07

[upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost1:09

My name is Chris Ryan.

Chris RyanHost1:11

I'm an editor at theringer.com. And joining me at the studio-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15

Hm

Chris RyanHost1:16

...

Chris RyanHost1:16

the originator of the #FreeMaxKatie movement, it's Andy Greenwald.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23

I don't think you should watch Cape Fear on Apple TV for the murder drama.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27

I think you should watch it for the insightful glimpse into the world of podcasting.

Chris RyanHost1:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31

The lurid world of podcasting-

Chris RyanHost1:33

That would be funny though [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33

... which is featured early on.

Chris RyanHost1:34

It is.

Chris RyanHost1:35

I love Prestige Television's concept of podcasting gives me no end of joy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:39

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:39

Andy, it's so good to see you.

Chris RyanHost1:40

Monday in America, uh, what do we have on tap? Game three in New York City, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:46

Oh

Chris RyanHost1:46

... for the NBA finals.

Chris RyanHost1:48

The World Cup begins this week.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:49

I'm happy they shut down those watch parties, I'll tell you that much.

Chris RyanHost1:52

I wanna talk to you about this.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:53

Do you?

Chris RyanHost1:53

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:54

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:54

This is one of those days, yeah, yeah, we're gonna talk Cape Fear, we're gonna talk Star City, but this is one of those days where you came in, shot out of a cannon, and we almost started podding before we-

Chris RyanHost2:02

Well, you know what?

Andy GreenwaldHost2:02

... started podding four times.

Chris RyanHost2:04

It's a pretty stimulating world we live in.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:06

Is it?

Chris RyanHost2:06

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:06

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:06

Is this just-

Chris RyanHost2:07

I think there's a lot going on

Andy GreenwaldHost2:08

... is this just, is this just Nithia-mentum you're feeling right now?

Chris RyanHost2:11

No. [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:12

[laughs] Anything is possible? [laughs] That's the hardest laugh we're gonna get from Kaya all day.

Chris RyanHost2:16

[laughs] That's Kaya.

Chris RyanHost2:18

She's sadly taking down all her Pratt, Pratt sites.

Chris RyanHost2:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:22

Damn.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:23

Pratt Falls, we call them.

Chris RyanHost2:24

Jake-

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:24

I was one of the people in Santa Monica who was devastated-

Chris RyanHost2:27

[laughs]

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:27

...

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:27

when I didn't actually get to vote for Spencer Pratt.

Chris RyanHost2:29

You can hit us up at thewatch@spotify.com. You can follow us on Instagram at thewatchpod_.

Chris RyanHost2:35

Our, our lovely production staff was, was mostly in Sweden, um, well, they were in Sweden, not mostly in Sweden.

Chris RyanHost2:41

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:41

Well, mentally they were a little checked out

Chris RyanHost2:42

... and, uh, so we missed out on clipping some incredible culinary conversation that we had at the end of last week's-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:47

I know

Chris RyanHost2:48

... podcast.

Chris RyanHost2:48

I think that would've gone-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:48

Kai, what are the rules about that? Do you feel like-

Chris RyanHost2:50

... mega viral.

Chris RyanHost2:51

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:51

Can you, can you dip back into the vaults and just, like, put a little sepia tone on it just from the past?

Chris RyanHost2:56

Don't you, he's gonna go back and be like, "When, when these guys were talking about [laughs] Game of Thrones season five-"

Andy GreenwaldHost3:01

Yeah

Chris RyanHost3:01

... true cooking.

Chris RyanHost3:02

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:02

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:02

Or, or he could just do the thing where he runs together, like, the oppo research when we have a guest on that I've spoken ill about their work in the past.

Chris RyanHost3:09

Oh, yeah, and you just bring up all the clips when Andy's-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:11

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost3:11

... just been like, "Not a fan." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:13

[laughs] Remember then all the silence in those pods?

Chris RyanHost3:15

You can watch us on, uh, YouTube at theringer-t- it's just ringer-tv.

Chris RyanHost3:20

I always say The Ringer, and it's ringer-tv on YouTube.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:23

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost3:23

Uh, you can also watch us on Spotify, where I hope you listen to us, but you can also find us on other podcast platforms.

Chris RyanHost3:29

Some housekeeping.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:30

Okay.

Chris RyanHost3:31

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:31

What do you got?

Chris RyanHost3:32

As some people may have heard last night on the Bill Simmons podcast, I'm going to be appearing on, co-hosting, whatever, a, a World Cup show on the Adam Friedland Show.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:44

This is a wild turn of events.

Chris RyanHost3:45

I believe it's the Adam Friedland Show: The Beautiful Pod is the title.

Chris RyanHost3:49

Uh, it's a, like, miniseries that we'll do over the course of the World Cup.

Chris RyanHost3:52

Adam is, is making shows for us now, or making shows for Spotify, and, uh, we're gonna do a little bit of a, a fun kickoff before his new season of his normal show.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:00

Is he a big football fan?

Chris RyanHost4:01

Un- he is, he is an unreal ball knower, I must say.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:04

Really?

Chris RyanHost4:05

Yes.

Chris RyanHost4:06

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:06

Hm.

Chris RyanHost4:07

He, uh, likes a phone call.

Chris RyanHost4:08

He likes to make a phone call, and he likes to just kind of just kind of be like, "Here's some topics I have on all football related," but yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:15

Wow.

Chris RyanHost4:16

It's, um, unbelievable.

Chris RyanHost4:16

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:16

By the way, I felt that, 'cause that's not what I do.

Chris RyanHost4:19

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:19

So if this ...

Andy GreenwaldHost4:21

It's interesting.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:22

You, you, you, you found a, a younger Jewish co-host and, um, okay.

Chris RyanHost4:27

I'm just trying guys out.

Chris RyanHost4:28

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:29

I, it, it's noted.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:30

Okay.

Chris RyanHost4:31

Um, so if you're excited about the World Cup like I am, uh, check that out.

Chris RyanHost4:35

Uh, that kicks off, I think we're gonna have an episode up on Wednesday.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:39

I mean, that's when the World Cup kicks off-

Chris RyanHost4:40

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost4:40

...

Andy GreenwaldHost4:40

so you better get it together.

Chris RyanHost4:42

Uh, do you f- wish you were in New York City today, the center of the known universe?

Andy GreenwaldHost4:47

Um, well, this is tough, because as a, I mean, longtime New York resident, uh, I want my friends to be happy.

Chris RyanHost4:55

Have you yet eclipsed New York with LA in terms of time spent?

Andy GreenwaldHost4:58

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:58

No, no, no, we're barely the halfway mark.

Chris RyanHost5:00

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:01

Um, but, uh, I can't say I root for the Knicks, but I root for the vibes, and I want n- I do want New York to win, and I want my friends in the great city to be happy.

Chris RyanHost5:13

It must be tough for you, because as a big-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:14

Thank you

Chris RyanHost5:15

... chemistry merchant-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:16

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:17

Oh

Chris RyanHost5:17

... uh, as, as a big-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:18

I thought this would be after dark, but yeah, go ahead.

Chris RyanHost5:19

No, we can talk about it now, 'cause this is something I think everybody is sharing.

Chris RyanHost5:22

Everybody has become a, a Knicks watcher.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:24

Yes.

Chris RyanHost5:24

You know, whether or not they enjoy it or not.

Chris RyanHost5:27

And, like, everything about this team, guys going to college together-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:31

Dude

Chris RyanHost5:31

... dudes doing podcasts together, uh, the Carl Anthony Towns, uh, mom storyline.

Chris RyanHost5:37

Like, everything about it, um, Jim Dolan's big redemption in New York City.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:42

Sh- okay.

Chris RyanHost5:42

Chalamet, Stiller, you know, like the-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:45

You, you crested, and now we're going the other side of the mountain.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:48

But-

Chris RyanHost5:48

It just seems like i- if there was ever a team-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:51

I listen

Chris RyanHost5:52

... packaged for you, it's this.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:53

I have s-

Chris RyanHost5:54

The only problem is-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:55

Yeah

Chris RyanHost5:55

... you're from two hours south.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:57

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:57

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost5:57

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:58

I have, I've said this to you to what I would characterize as open derision, which is-Two years ago when it became the Nova Knicks, I was like, "We have to be honest with each other." I would kill to cheer for a team like this.

Chris RyanHost6:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:11

Yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:11

This is a dream situation, if only they weren't wearing the, the blue and orange.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:16

I, yes, I, I like the vibes, I like the team.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:20

I would watch just Karl-Anthony Towns' post-game interviews [laughs] where he just becomes, like, this wise sage-om-

Chris RyanHost6:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:28

... about the great continuum and loving-

Chris RyanHost6:30

Yeah [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:30

...

Andy GreenwaldHost6:30

the beautiful sport that he's given a chance to play.

Chris RyanHost6:33

How life and family-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:33

It's unbelievable

Chris RyanHost6:34

... flows like a river.

Chris RyanHost6:35

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:35

Dude, it's unbelievable.

Chris RyanHost6:36

Yeah, man.

Chris RyanHost6:36

It's very moving.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:37

Um, and I, I'm happy that New York is having a moment.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:41

Also, I just realized I have a little s- little packet of granola on the television.

Chris RyanHost6:44

Why do you have that?

Andy GreenwaldHost6:45

Uh, I was just snacking.

Chris RyanHost6:46

Dude, you love a free snack.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:47

I was just, I was just-

Chris RyanHost6:47

You'll just grab something.

Chris RyanHost6:49

It-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:49

I was like, "Maybe that'll taste good this morning."

Chris RyanHost6:51

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:51

Thanks, guys, for keeping that on camera.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:53

I think that's good.

Chris RyanHost6:53

I wanna say that Sean Fantasy-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:55

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost6:56

... is one of the great loves of my life, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost6:58

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost6:58

And so I want him to be happy.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:59

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost7:00

And that's where it starts and ends.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:02

That's really nice.

Chris RyanHost7:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:03

It [laughs] also ends at the gate to Citi Field.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:06

But-

Chris RyanHost7:06

And if I have memories of Sean being relatively supportive-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:11

Yeah

Chris RyanHost7:11

... of at least the Eagles.

Chris RyanHost7:13

Not, like, cheering for them-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:15

No, no, no

Chris RyanHost7:15

...

Chris RyanHost7:15

but just being like, "I'm happy you're happy." And so I, I pass it back to him, the baton-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:20

I, I, I think that-

Chris RyanHost7:21

... of, of friendship and, and, and good sportsmanship

Andy GreenwaldHost7:24

... seeing basketball games at Madison Square Garden is awesome, and then it's better if the Knicks are good.

Chris RyanHost7:29

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:30

Um, and maybe they stay in their own arena, [laughs] like the fans as well.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:34

I think that would be nice.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:35

Also, I think it's good-

Chris RyanHost7:36

Oh, instead of coming to ours? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:37

[laughs] It's good for our narrative as struggling Sixers fans if they never lose again.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:42

Um, but do you think that, um, our president is going to kill the vibes tonight? Do you think that he personally will be responsible for their first loss?

Chris RyanHost7:54

Uh, I d- I definitely think that his, whether it's the Secret Service or whatever it is-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:02

Mm

Chris RyanHost8:02

... knocking out all these watch parties and all this street festival vibe that-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:06

Genuine fun

Chris RyanHost8:07

... that they've got going-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:08

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost8:09

... is not cool, uh, and is going to frustrate some people.

Chris RyanHost8:14

If he went out and did side talk after the Knicks win like a close game three and was like, "Fuck Trae Young"-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost8:21

... he'd probably get a third term.

Chris RyanHost8:24

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost8:24

Y- first of all, you should go into the advisor racket.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:28

I think that's not wrong.

Chris RyanHost8:29

If I was just like, "Shoot this guy full of Adderall and send him-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:33

Yeah

Chris RyanHost8:33

... out into [laughs] side talk"

Andy GreenwaldHost8:34

Yeah

Chris RyanHost8:35

...

Chris RyanHost8:35

I think people would overlook some, some flaws in his-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:37

Just tell him what gl-

Chris RyanHost8:38

... administration.

Chris RyanHost8:38

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost8:38

Tell him what glizzies are.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:40

Get him on the uptown number one train.

Chris RyanHost8:43

No, I, I don't know.

Chris RyanHost8:44

I think it's fucked up.

Chris RyanHost8:45

Yeah, I wish those, I wish people were able to go watch and like they're, they, like, canceled it all the way south to Battery Park or whatever, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:50

Did they?

Chris RyanHost8:50

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:51

It's like sh- the city, Midtown's basically shut down.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:55

Man, you love Midtown.

Chris RyanHost8:56

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost8:57

That was always your favorite neighborhood to just kinda just walk through.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:00

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost9:00

[laughs] I love sitting in a cafe in Herald Square.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:02

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost9:03

Watching life go by.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:04

Mm.

Chris RyanHost9:04

Nobody gives a shit about this.

Chris RyanHost9:06

Uh ... [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:07

I do, and this is great.

Chris RyanHost9:08

Well, I do, but like, you know, people come here because they want hard-hitting takes on television.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:11

And Philadelphia sports.

Chris RyanHost9:12

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:12

This is a little outside of our-

Chris RyanHost9:14

So let's-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:14

Can, wait, can I, can I tell you one thing, make one recommendation about television?

Chris RyanHost9:17

Of course.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:18

Just since we're speaking broadly here.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:19

I don't know if you checked this out, but there is a documentary on Martin Short on Netflix.

Chris RyanHost9:24

I did not check this out.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:25

It is called Marty: Life is Short, and I recommend it for fans of comedy, for fans of, um, Martin Short obviously.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:33

But I, and, and it's a great glimpse into a person who seems like a truly wonderful menschy human being who is beloved by everyone and is a, a good performer and a good person and all that, and his history is interesting.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:45

It's also at once, like, very, very moving about how, much like the Nova Knicks, uh, people grew up together.

Chris RyanHost9:53

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:53

And like this, like f- foundational Toronto production of Godspell in the '70s had like Gilda Radner and Andrea Martin and Eugene Levy and, and Martin Short and all these people that went on to, Victor Garber, like all of these ...

Andy GreenwaldHost10:05

And Paul Shaffer was the band leader, and all these like seminal moments where people were just young people screwing around and then they all became something.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:12

Catherine O'Hara.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:13

But the real reason I have to watch this, and I think I need you to watch this, is it is a damning indictment of how we've conducted ourselves socially as adults because the backbone of this documentary is Martin Short's home movies, either in Los Angeles for his, he and his wife Nancy's like legendary Christmas parties, or their summers in their cottage, which, let's be honest, it's a little more than a cottage.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:37

Somewhere in, somewhere in Canada.

Chris RyanHost10:38

In Canada.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:38

Like a lake cottage.

Chris RyanHost10:39

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:40

Where they just reliably host Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson, Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn, um, Catherine O'Hara, Eugene Levy, like all of these incredibly famous, funny people.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:52

And I'm like, "They were younger than we are now, just hanging, grilling burgers, jumping in lakes and laughing." When do we get the grilling burgers, jumping in lakes and laughing part of our friendships, or should we have been friends with richer people?

Chris RyanHost11:07

Uh, that's, I mean, there's a lot to unpack here.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:09

Thank you.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:09

I am, I'm shook up.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:10

Like, I loved this documentary-

Chris RyanHost11:11

When, when is-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:11

...

Andy GreenwaldHost11:11

but I feel like-

Chris RyanHost11:13

When is the grilling taking place, like, on a, on a historical timeline?

Andy GreenwaldHost11:17

I will tell you exactly.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:18

Without telling you what year it's taking place, I will communicate it to you.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:22

There is a steady cam shot of Eugene Levy grilling burgers with one hand and ripping a dart with the other.

Chris RyanHost11:29

Okay, so this is '90s.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:30

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost11:30

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:30

See?

Chris RyanHost11:31

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:31

See? Yes.

Chris RyanHost11:31

'Cause I'll tell you something.

Chris RyanHost11:33

Last night-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:34

Yeah

Chris RyanHost11:35

...

Chris RyanHost11:35

I got, um, some Thai food and I, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:39

Some

Chris RyanHost11:39

... not, like, what I mean is I got-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:42

Mm

Chris RyanHost11:42

... a noodle dish.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:43

Mm.

Chris RyanHost11:45

Uh, well it's like basically it's Night Market and they make a crunchwrap.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:49

That's pretty good.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:50

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:50

And some rice.

Chris RyanHost11:51

And then after that I was like my, my mouth is hot, I'm gonna get some ice cream.

Chris RyanHost11:56

I spent $110.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:58

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost12:00

I also-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:01

Yes

Chris RyanHost12:01

... went to both places.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:02

Yes.

Chris RyanHost12:03

This is no disrespect to Night Market, which is an incredible restaurant, nor the ice cream establishment I went to-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:08

Yes

Chris RyanHost12:08

... which is good but overpriced.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:09

Yes.

Chris RyanHost12:10

But-I don't think I can host anyone.

Chris RyanHost12:12

I can't be making burgers for so many people

Andy GreenwaldHost12:14

Because of the cost.

Chris RyanHost12:16

Because of the cost.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:16

Right.

Chris RyanHost12:16

Because of the cost of food and living.

Chris RyanHost12:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:19

So basically what you're saying is this is another thing that boomers took from us.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:23

Country houses-

Chris RyanHost12:24

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost12:25

... lakes, camaraderie-

Chris RyanHost12:27

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost12:28

... grilling.

Chris RyanHost12:28

Exactly.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:30

It, it is ...

Andy GreenwaldHost12:31

I mean, you're not ...

Andy GreenwaldHost12:32

First of all, you're not wrong.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:33

Everything sucks.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:33

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost12:34

I'd love to throw my doors open.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:35

And it's way too expensive.

Chris RyanHost12:35

Nobody wants to come over.

Chris RyanHost12:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:37

Well, what do you mean you'd love to, but try us.

Chris RyanHost12:39

Well, it's just ...

Chris RyanHost12:40

I, I just think that, like, in LA, it's just a lot more difficult to make plans than, than it is in New York or anywhere else in the world.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:47

I'm gonna stop you.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:48

Half of these gatherings in the Martin Short documentary are in LA.

Chris RyanHost12:51

Yeah, but they're-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:51

And there's a moment where-

Chris RyanHost12:51

...

Chris RyanHost12:51

in the '90s when there was, like, a third less people here, I feel like.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:55

At the Christmas party-

Chris RyanHost12:56

You read those Joan Didion books, and she's like, "I was on Franklin Avenue and, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:59

No, she-

Chris RyanHost12:59

... and then I drove to Santa Monica in 19 minutes."

Andy GreenwaldHost13:01

Do you know, do you know who the queen of that is? Eve Babitz.

Chris RyanHost13:03

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:03

Eve Babitz is like, "Well, I woke up feeling a little indolent in Silver Lake today, so I drove to Carpinteria for the morning."

Chris RyanHost13:09

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost13:10

Like, must be nice.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:13

Uh, one of these Christmas parties where Martin Short's, like, doing a little Sinatra song to kick it off, and he's like, "Who's next?" And then someone stands up from the crowd of-

Chris RyanHost13:21

Yeah, it's Frank Sinatra?

Andy GreenwaldHost13:22

... well ...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:22

No, it's fucking ...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:23

A guy goes up to the microphone and goes, "It's me, Glenn Frey, the Happy Eagle."

Chris RyanHost13:28

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost13:28

And everyone's like, "Ha, ha, Glenn." Then he plays piano for a while, and then Sally Field jumps on the piano.

Chris RyanHost13:33

Oh, that's nice.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:35

I, I, I appreciate what you're saying about the cost of living.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:38

It has skyrocketed, but I also think that you're avoiding the vulnerable truth at the bottom of this, which is that we've screwed up our adulthood.

Chris RyanHost13:43

We have.

Chris RyanHost13:44

No, it's no doubt about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:45

I, I, it's, it's shaken me up.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:46

And yes, is this rarefied air? Like, on one of their vacations, um, Tom Hanks and M- Martin Short for the, uh, with Steven Spielberg on the Handycam, ringer friend Steven Spielberg-

Chris RyanHost13:57

If you watch people's third chair, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost13:58

...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:58

they decide to recreate the last scene of, um, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid with Tom Hanks playing Forrest Gump, which had just released, and Martin Short as Ed Grimley.

Chris RyanHost14:09

And Steven Spielberg directed it.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:10

Filming it, yes.

Chris RyanHost14:11

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:11

As they jump off a boat together saying they can't swim.

Chris RyanHost14:14

Uh, that's incredible.

Chris RyanHost14:15

I will ...

Chris RyanHost14:15

Where is, where is the streaming?

Andy GreenwaldHost14:16

This is a Netflix documentary.

Chris RyanHost14:17

Netflix.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:17

If anyone has any advice on how we can be better adults having watched this, email Chris.

Chris RyanHost14:22

Uh, my only recommendation from the weekend is just that I, I, I com- completed my journey with The Dark Wizard, uh, who is-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:29

Yeah

Chris RyanHost14:30

... a mountain climber, Dean Potter, four-part documentary about him on HBO, which then sent me down a 100 Foot Wave-esque rabbit hole of watching mountain climbing documentaries.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:41

Oh, that's cool.

Chris RyanHost14:41

Uh, so I also watched The Alpinist, which is on Peacock, uh, which is made by the same filmmakers as Dark Wizard and a little bit of like a Peter Sarsgaard narrated documentary about the history of climbing in Yosemite, which I found on Amazon, but I think it's Something in the Valley.

Chris RyanHost14:56

I can't remember what it is.

Chris RyanHost14:57

Anyway.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:58

All right.

Chris RyanHost14:59

Um, that's a dangerous sport.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:01

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost15:01

That's how, the, where I'll leave that.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:02

That's always been my sense of it.

Chris RyanHost15:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:04

You ever, you ever-

Chris RyanHost15:05

Ne- never even an inkling.

Chris RyanHost15:07

To wanna climb a mountain?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:09

Yeah, I-

Chris RyanHost15:09

It's not my business.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:10

No. [laughs] Mountain's there well before me, it'll be there well after me.

Chris RyanHost15:13

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:13

I will say the, the greatest compliment I ever received was, and in retrospect, I think it was maybe just, like, a, a fishing expedition of friendship, like, just sort of a offering a hand.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:23

But when I was in Albuquerque making the show a few years ago, someone on the crew was like, "Do you ever rock climb?" And I was just said, "Thank you." [laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:32

For thinking that I might have?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:33

Yeah, obviously no.

Chris RyanHost15:35

Yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:35

But that is the nicest, most optimistic thing anyone's ever said to me.

Chris RyanHost15:37

What's up with those guys though, man? I was thinking about this.

Chris RyanHost15:40

Both the 100 Foot Wave dudes-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:42

Mm

Chris RyanHost15:42

... and, like, these mountain climbing guys, I don't think they actually, quote-unquote, "exercise," like, outside of the sport that they participate in.

Chris RyanHost15:51

Like, they don't have to lift, and I-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:53

This is what they said about John Kruk, too.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:55

Like, are you sa- what are you saying?

Chris RyanHost15:56

No, we, Alex Honnold-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:57

Yeah

Chris RyanHost15:57

... like, every once in a couple of these shots in Dark Wizard-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:00

Yeah

Chris RyanHost16:01

... has his shirt off, and I'm like, "This dude's cut out of pure marble."

Andy GreenwaldHost16:03

Oh, right.

Chris RyanHost16:03

Like, this is insane.

Chris RyanHost16:05

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:05

I thought you were gonna do something like that, the, the, the discourse about Homer Geer.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:09

I thought that's what you were gonna say.

Chris RyanHost16:10

What's your, what's the discourse about Homer Geer?

Andy GreenwaldHost16:12

That he, that he, like, isn't ripped in that scene in Euphoria.

Chris RyanHost16:15

Well, so what?

Andy GreenwaldHost16:16

Yeah, I'm on your side, man.

Chris RyanHost16:18

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:18

I'm not body shaming.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:19

I thought you were setting up the story to be like, he is an elite mountain climber-

Chris RyanHost16:23

Oh, and he's-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:23

... who tames nature.

Chris RyanHost16:24

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:25

You know, and he's ripping darts between-

Chris RyanHost16:28

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:28

... pizza bites.

Chris RyanHost16:29

Let's get into actual television, how about that?

Andy GreenwaldHost16:31

I, I thought we just named some television.

Chris RyanHost16:33

We did.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:33

I mean, so like-

Chris RyanHost16:33

So Dark Wizard on HBO, Martin Short documentary on Netflix.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:36

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost16:36

Two recommendations from this weekend.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:38

All right.

Chris RyanHost16:38

Andy and I also, uh, so we're up to date on Star City.

Chris RyanHost16:41

We're gonna talk about that in a little bit.

Chris RyanHost16:44

I thought we could jump in and talk a little bit about Cape Fear, but before we did that-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:47

Yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost16:47

... can we just address the fact that most of what we've talked about over the last couple of weeks has been Apple?

Andy GreenwaldHost16:53

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost16:54

Um, this is out of no great allegiance to their, to their services or products.

Chris RyanHost16:59

It's just a reality of-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:01

[laughs] You say that in front of their MacBooks.

Chris RyanHost17:03

Well, I, I know.

Chris RyanHost17:04

I mean, it's ridiculous.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:05

I know.

Chris RyanHost17:05

But I've, I ...

Chris RyanHost17:08

There, there have been various moments when I have felt this.

Chris RyanHost17:11

I think the fact that I l- I, you know, we've talked about Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, we've been talking about Widows Bay, we're talking about Star City and Cape Fear.

Chris RyanHost17:18

We haven't really talked about Your Friends and Neighbors season two.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:21

No.

Chris RyanHost17:21

We didn't keep up with Margot's Got Money Problems.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:23

No.

Chris RyanHost17:23

But, like, it, it goes on and on.

Chris RyanHost17:27

The sheer volume of stuff that they've put out that somehow has wormed its way ...

Chris RyanHost17:31

Not wormed, but, like, what, what do you think is going on here? Like, is this, is this a, a we can just outspend and outlast?

Andy GreenwaldHost17:40

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:41

We touched on this a little bit on Thursday, but I think that this is the best case scenario of their flood the zone strategy.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:49

They simply have more swings every time they come to the plate.

Chris RyanHost17:53

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:53

They have more things in production.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:55

If you go on the list, uh, of current, uh, current programming and upcoming, there are, um, I would say upwards of 20 to 25 upcoming drama and comedy series, many of which are at least intriguing-

Chris RyanHost18:09

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost18:09

... b- via logline or star power, and those are the ones that are awaiting a scheduled release date.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:14

They have so, so much in the chamber, and-I think it, it's r- it's raising their batting average.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:21

Now, that said, I think they are also rounding into form and understanding better what it is that they do and what they can, what sort of, what they can fill in the marketplace.

Chris RyanHost18:29

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:30

Um, I think that, and we'll talk about this this week obviously, like, w- I think you and I have...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:36

We praise a different part of their strategy than the part that might be, I was about to say keeping the lights on, but the lights are fine over there.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:43

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost18:43

The lights are fine, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:44

You know what I mean? But I, but I...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:45

But the, some of the shows that you mentioned that we are not covering are probably the ones that the programming team would point to internally to say, like, "We're getting real traction here."

Chris RyanHost18:53

Certainly your Friends and Neighbors.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:55

Yeah, like just-

Chris RyanHost18:55

Which is, which is n- still the number one show on Apple

Andy GreenwaldHost18:58

...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:58

This is working for us.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:59

This is-

Chris RyanHost18:59

According to their own internal ranking

Andy GreenwaldHost19:00

...

Andy GreenwaldHost19:00

this, this is the thing that we can run up the flagpole and say, this whole, um, this whole, this whole, uh, expansion is worth it.

Chris RyanHost19:07

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:08

We are in the business, I think, of arguing for the fact that Apple, due to its deep pockets, can take a project that is completely airtight when presented to them, like Widow's Bay, and say, "We can help, we can help you execute this," because, you know, I- we'll get a chance, I hope, to talk to Katie Dippold and Hiro Murai about it, but I can't im- I, I would imagine that many places were interested in taking the meeting and liked the idea of it.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:34

I don't know how many of them were interested in location shooting in Massachusetts, a place that is not famous for large scale productions or tax breaks, you know, in order to get it over the finish line, to get it-

Chris RyanHost19:44

That's probably, like, we have a place in Canada you can shoot.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost19:47

There's a pla- Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:48

We'll, we'll, we'll make it work for you.

Chris RyanHost19:49

Have you thought, have you thought about setting it on an island off of Georgia?

Andy GreenwaldHost19:52

Exa-

Chris RyanHost19:53

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost19:53

... exactly that.

Chris RyanHost19:54

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:54

So, um, or in the case of Star City, where it's like, that's very nice of them to make a show just for us and this podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:00

[laughs] We really appreciate it.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:02

Um, so yeah, I th- I think, I think that that's reflective of what, of their strategy working right now.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:07

The flip side of that is, um, this is extremely inside baseball, but in order to watch ahead one week till we could cover Widow's Bay this week 'cause of our recording schedule, I went on their screener site, and on the screener site is just these, like, dusty bones of shows that they've wanted us to watch or wanted people to engage with that are just memory holed.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:26

Like, the big-

Chris RyanHost20:27

They may be memory holed-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:27

Like-

Chris RyanHost20:27

...

Chris RyanHost20:27

but many of them have four to five seasons.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:29

No, n- the ones that didn't.

Chris RyanHost20:30

Oh, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:31

I'm saying things like, like, like the, the hilariously insane disclaimer that we covered with Cuarón and Cate Blanchett, probably-

Chris RyanHost20:37

Well, that was never gonna be, like, more than one season

Andy GreenwaldHost20:39

... probably one of the most expensive one seasons ever, I would say, based on everyone's EP fees alone.

Chris RyanHost20:44

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:44

Um, The Big Cigar, you know? Like, I-

Chris RyanHost20:47

Big Cigar?

Andy GreenwaldHost20:48

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:49

This was a, this was a historical show based on one of those Epic Magazine articles that was about, like, uh, Huey, uh, Huey Newton-

Chris RyanHost20:56

Oh, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost20:56

... and Cuba.

Chris RyanHost20:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:57

There's nothing wr- I'm not saying these 'cause they're bad.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:59

I'm just saying they were like, "Maybe that's gonna be the thing that we do.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:02

Nope, no problem," and you never see the retrenchment because they went all in on the wrong thing.

Chris RyanHost21:07

Yes.

Chris RyanHost21:07

I mean, y- y- you know, the, the internal marketing when you look at the app, when you open up Apple TV on your, like, uh, uh, s- uh, set-top box or if you-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:18

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost21:18

... watch it looking, looking at it on your desktop, it's, there's, like, a sort of pleasing uniformity to the design of the marketing.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:27

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost21:28

Um, that being said, I don't see a lot of, like, in the wild, "Hey, by the way, this is on." But I don't know that a lot of these streamers really participate in that outside of, like, say, Paramount Plus who really seem to try to make sure everybody knows that, like, Dunn Ranch or whatever is on.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:44

Well, I, I-

Chris RyanHost21:45

You know, like, I, I think that there's a lot of, like, kind of like we have kind of decided to moat this stuff, and what matters is the service more than the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:54

Well, I think that there's also internally a distinction between shows you spend on and shows you gatekeep quite literally, and that that actually could be a boon to them.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:03

So the example, we're gonna talk about Cape Fear, which is getting the royal treatment from...

Andy GreenwaldHost22:08

I mean, the, it's on, you know, wraparounds on buses-

Chris RyanHost22:10

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost22:10

... and, and, and-

Chris RyanHost22:11

Yeah, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost22:11

... billboards, and they're trying to draw people to the service based on this show.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:15

A show we covered last week that we like, that we liked, Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, I think is getting the reverse treatment, where it is something that for people who are already within the ecosystem of Apple, um, they're offering it up and maybe it's on autoplay when you finish a different show that they think might be simpatico, and then it's generating its own level of interest within the ecosystem.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:35

And the argument for doing that, I would say, is, y- you know, is especially for the way these tech companies budget things, if they spend, if, you know, if they can break it down to, like, we've spent $1 million additionally on top of the production fees for the first episode of Cape Fear in marketing costs, thus in order to recoup, it needs to make back its production costs plus this, like a movie would.

Chris RyanHost22:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:57

You know? And again, that's all gets fuzzy once you're inside of Apple's internal budgeting.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:01

All that is to say, um, if they get X number of watches on a Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, um, those are faster return on investment, and that might make them more likely to keep it going as opposed to outwardly spending on it and not seemingly recouping that investment in the outside expenditures.

Chris RyanHost23:19

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:20

It's so opaque.

Chris RyanHost23:21

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:21

And it only makes sense to them.

Hey, y'all.

It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair.

Ever order furniture online and wonder, "What if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up?" That sofa was four days old.

You should've ordered from Wayfair.

With Wayfair, there's no what if.

Just style you love and quality you can trust.

Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.

Chris RyanHost23:39

I thought it was really interesting, we can get into Cape Fear here, that Cape Fear was ver- I think very wisely released in June as, as summer hits, as the temperatures go up, as people are looking for, like, a sticky, indulgent, kind of high-end trashy show to watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:58

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost23:58

Um, and not for the Emmy consideration.

Chris RyanHost24:03

Uh, which w- just ended, I guess, a- about a week ago.

Chris RyanHost24:06

I think voting opens this week, I believe, um, for the Emmys.

Chris RyanHost24:10

Because you, you would think Amy Adams, Javier Bardem, Patrick Wilson, these people would be, like, the n- the kind of person you would put forward for an Emmy award.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:18

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost24:18

That being said, I think the show, you canAnd we'll talk about, uh, y- I watched two, Andy watched one.

Chris RyanHost24:25

We can talk broadly about it.

Chris RyanHost24:27

Uh, we don't wanna, like, spoil things.

Chris RyanHost24:29

Obviously, it's based on, in some ways, one central story, [laughs] but is based on several different sources of-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:37

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost24:37

... material.

Chris RyanHost24:38

So Cape Fear is based on The Executioners, which is a John D. MacDonald novel.

Chris RyanHost24:42

It's based on-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:42

From the, from '57 or something, I believe

Chris RyanHost24:44

...

Chris RyanHost24:44

the film starring Robert Mitchum from the '50s, I believe.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:48

'50s or early '60s.

Chris RyanHost24:49

Early '60s.

Chris RyanHost24:50

And then it's also based on the 1991 Martin Scorsese, uh, adaptation with the screenplay by Wesley Strick, um, which was, like, a famous kind of not cash grab for Scorsese, but, like, another one of his, like, I'm gonna prove that I am a bankable director as well as, like, a, um, a r- world-renowned artiste of cinema.

Chris RyanHost25:13

And he, that was like a $35 million movie that wound up making $180 million.

Chris RyanHost25:18

It was Nick Nolte, Robert De Niro, and Jessica Lange, and Juliette Lewis in the, in the, in the major roles, and was a huge hit.

Chris RyanHost25:26

And as, as we've, we've done it on Rewatchables, it is, continues to be a rewatchable movie precisely because you are caught in a vice grip of tension and atmosphere.

Chris RyanHost25:36

You can feel the sweat.

Chris RyanHost25:38

You can feel the-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:38

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost25:39

...

Chris RyanHost25:39

the tattoos on De Niro.

Chris RyanHost25:41

You can feel the water, like, hitting them as they have the, the sort of-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:45

It's a damp film

Chris RyanHost25:46

... big finale.

Chris RyanHost25:47

And, uh, this show is trying to do what several shows like it, um, in the past have also attempted, which is to see if they can reliably, hour to hour, release some tension and then pour it back on so that the people, so the audience is, continues to be engaged and continues to have the sense memory experience of watching Cape Fear, which is kind of the hardest part about this show to navigate is-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:14

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost26:15

... how do you sustain this vibe for this many hours when usually the human body checks out after two hours and you're just like, "I need this to-"

Andy GreenwaldHost26:24

And-

Chris RyanHost26:24

"... resolve itself."

Andy GreenwaldHost26:25

And it is not historically, and by historically, I mean the novel and the two previous adaptations, a particularly complicated story.

Chris RyanHost26:33

No, not really.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:34

It is really like, and it, it, you know, an unstoppable object running into an immovable force, and then something's gotta give.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:41

What is your...

Andy GreenwaldHost26:43

I know you've done it on Rewatchables.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:44

What is your personal take on the Scorsese movie? Because my, I have not rewatched it.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:49

Maybe I rewatched it in the '90s when it was on cable.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:51

It's a pretty nasty movie-

Chris RyanHost26:52

Yeah, I mean, it's-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:52

... intentionally so.

Chris RyanHost26:53

It's definitely...

Chris RyanHost26:54

We're doing, um, on Rewatchables this month, we're doing the from hell genre-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:59

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost26:59

... which is a largely, like, '90s-based phenomenon subgenre of thriller that basically does the dot dot dot from hell.

Chris RyanHost27:09

So Roommate-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:09

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost27:10

...

Chris RyanHost27:10

From Hell, Stepfather From Hell, Nanny From Hell.

Chris RyanHost27:14

Um, this is the best possible version of from hell, and I guess it's the thing from your past from hell.

Chris RyanHost27:22

And I think this was Scorsese.

Chris RyanHost27:25

You know, this had been a, uh, a thing that had been banging around Amblin and that Spielberg had considered directing himself.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:31

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost27:31

And Scorsese winds up doing it, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:33

The famous trade, right?

Chris RyanHost27:34

Yeah, this is the Schindler's List trade, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost27:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:36

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost27:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:36

They each were developing a project they probably shouldn't have been.

Chris RyanHost27:39

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:39

And Scorsese and Spielberg swapped Cape Fear for Schindler's List.

Chris RyanHost27:43

Right.

Chris RyanHost27:43

And in some ways it worked out for both of them exactly right-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:47

I would say so

Chris RyanHost27:47

... because Scorsese gets to show he can make a blockbuster-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:52

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost27:52

...

Chris RyanHost27:52

in a really sincere, like, e- efficient way.

Chris RyanHost27:55

It has so much style, and this is the thing that I was thinking about going into this TV series-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:00

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost28:00

... is that so much of Cape Fear relies on the artistry of the filmmaking-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:06

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost28:06

... because the people are relatively unpleasant to spend time with.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:09

Yes.

Chris RyanHost28:09

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:10

Yeah, there, it's not a heroic storyline.

Chris RyanHost28:11

And that's not a deal breaker for me.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:13

No.

Chris RyanHost28:14

But it's also not funny.

Chris RyanHost28:15

So this isn't gonna be like Succession or Breaking Bad or any other series, or Sopranos or anything where you're like, "Boy, these are a bunch of corrupted people.

Chris RyanHost28:25

Let's watch them get caught like mats in a, rats in a maze, and then see who gets out."

Andy GreenwaldHost28:31

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost28:31

This is, like, you're gonna spend 10 hours with these people, and you're gonna be forced to hope that w- they figure this out, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost28:37

Yeah, and I think the nature of television requires, despite many, many brilliant creators that, you know, valiantly attempting otherwise, television requires some audience buy-in and empathy.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:48

And at a very base level maybe it's because of the time commitment.

Chris RyanHost28:51

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:51

You have to want an outcome, which I think is n- not, that doesn't reflect the best of cinema, frankly.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:58

Like, the best movies keep you on your toes, and you can switch allegiances, and you can question your own empathies and all that stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:04

But for 10 hours, I'm not saying you have to pick a side, but you, you kind of have to settle in and root for something.

Chris RyanHost29:10

Right.

Chris RyanHost29:10

And now so this rendition of the, of the series is from Nick A- Nick Antosca, who's a, a TV show creator who we have talked about on and off over the years, but I'm a huge fan of Channel Zero.

Chris RyanHost29:25

Uh, he did The Act, uh, which I was m- less of a fan of, um, what I saw of it.

Chris RyanHost29:30

And he's done a bunch of different stuff-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:33

But he, he-

Chris RyanHost29:33

... as a executive producer, as a writer, as a creator

Andy GreenwaldHost29:35

He, he is a very, very good maker of television and producer of content.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:41

I mean that in a really, I mean that in the best, most generous way possible, and particularly because he has a real sense of what types of stories interest him.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:49

And he is interested in the horror, in the lurid stories, in the sordid stories.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:54

And from everything we understand about this, this wasn't necessarily Amblin taking generals on how they can profit from this, uh, sitting in their catalog.

Chris RyanHost30:04

No, he wanted to do this.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:05

He wanted to do this.

Chris RyanHost30:06

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:06

And I think the thing that I, starting with, with praise, um, because spoiler, I did not really enjoy watching the show, um, I think that this is sort of all the way back to where you started, but, like, there is a full-throated embrace of a kind of tawdry-Summer '80s and '90s blockbuster entertainment that is you can't half-ass.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:33

And I think that, that, the, that was clearly both inspiration and the goal here, and I think it's why I was also comparing this, maybe unintentionally at first, to last summer's version of this, um, maybe now it's two summers ago, was Presumed Innocent.

Chris RyanHost30:50

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:51

Um, which was another like let's take something from a very specific time culturally that we remember and try to, um, iterate it and, well, for the contemporary streaming era, but also try to hold onto these things that we don't really get in our entertainment anymore.

Chris RyanHost31:05

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:06

Um, I preferred Presumed Innocent because Presumed Innocent had O.T. Fagbenle's performance and Peter Sarsgaard performance, and it had some knowing wit.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:15

And I would say that this does not seem to have that.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:18

But we can, we can talk more broadly, and I'd like to hear your thoughts about it before I tell you what I was sort of bumping against.

Chris RyanHost31:23

Uh, I think the, the issue for me was how the little tricks that they're playing...

Chris RyanHost31:31

So I, I, I, I basically, I would say that my, my, my broad take on the show is that I thought it was unnecessary, um, and that it was totally make believe, and I also didn't hate it.

Chris RyanHost31:43

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost31:43

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost31:44

Like, I didn't...

Chris RyanHost31:46

I- In the opening moments, I was just like there's basically two things that happened that I thought were like exactly diametrically op- not diametrically opposed.

Chris RyanHost31:55

There was one thing where I was like, "Holy shit, this is really compelling that they're doing this," and then there was something else where I was like, "I know exactly what this show is gonna be."