Gail Simmons on the ‘Top Chef’ Season 23 Finale! Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 9.

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[drum music]

Chris RyanHost1:13

I need support staff to clear the room.

Chris RyanHost1:16

Stand up and walk, now.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18

Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20

My name is Andy Greenwald.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21

I have no official designation here at Spotify.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24

Chris Ryan is, surprise, surprise, traveling this great country of ours.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27

I think he's calling it a listening tour.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29

He hasn't really announced anything yet, but he is connecting with voters in the Midwest.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33

Um, very happy to have you here.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:35

We have a good show today.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:36

It is not just gonna be me speaking directly to you in camera, I promise.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:40

Um, I'm gonna talk for a few minutes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:42

Chris is gonna join me somehow through the magic of time travel, AKA we recorded it earlier this week, to talk about this penultimate episode of Widow's Bay, which I think is our, both of our favorite show of the year.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:52

And then at the end of the podcast, I will be joined for my yearly, and I don't take it for granted, my yearly conversation with the great Gail Simmons, judge, executive producer of Top Chef.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:03

That conversation hasn't happened yet, so again, miracle of podcast time travel, but I'm, imagine it's gonna be a good one.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:10

And, uh, we will talk about fully spoiling, um, the just concluded Season 23 in Carolinas.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:17

So housekeeping, something I am famously bad at.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:20

Uh, you can email us, thewatch@spotify.com. Say whatever you want.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:24

I do not have access to that email.

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:26

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:26

Nor do I want it.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:27

Um, you can also, of course, find us on Instagram at thewatch...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:31

Uh, oh, oh, I always get it wrong.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:33

It's thewatchpod-

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:34

thewatchpod_

Andy GreenwaldHost2:35

_

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:37

Classic.

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:37

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:38

Um-

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:38

Again, thewatchpod was taken by a account that reviews watches, so.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:43

See, okay, that does seem inevitable to me.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:45

Um-

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:46

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost2:46

... do you think we get any crossover with the watch community? I don't personally wear one.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:50

Um-

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:50

I think we should try to get a sponsorship going.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:54

I-

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:54

A little rollie.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:55

Do you think we can get a Rolex subscription, Kaya? [laughs] This is-

Kaya McMullenPanelist2:58

If we put it out there, you never know

Andy GreenwaldHost2:59

... very, very optimistic.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:01

Um, while we are on the subject of housecleaning, one small thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:05

Look, you guys know this about Chris, again, and this is what, what makes him an authentic candidate, a- almost authentic enough to run for Senate in Maine.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:12

He does not like to engage with the replies and the reply guys.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:15

He's just like, "The take is clean.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:17

The delivery is pure.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:19

We move on to the next one." I, I am not that, uh, impervious, and when I get something wrong, I do like to admit it.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:25

So two things.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:27

Last week, I believe Chris had a really fun game where he pitched the idea that we would s- quote-unquote, star city other television shows, which is to say that we would, um, just spontaneously...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:38

I'm sorry, no, he did it as homework.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:40

I spontaneously did it.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:42

Uh, alternate versions/spin-offs of beloved TV shows that looked at things from the other perspective.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:47

I was very, very pleased with my final, uh, suggestion, which was a show set in the Mad Men universe based on the, quote, "other Jewish firm" that the, that Rachel, the department store heir in the pilot should have been seeking business from.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:03

I didn't, I fumbled, basically.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:05

I thought it was a good idea, and I fumbled the ball at the one-yard line.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:08

Longtime Watch listener Jonathan zoomed in to say, "Mad Mench was right there."

Kaya McMullenPanelist4:13

Hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:13

It was right there waiting for me, and I do feel like that's just a bad look for me, and I will continue to get better every day.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:19

Second thing, William B. Davis, the Canadian actor who plays the cigarette-smoking man on The X Files, a show we talked about last week, and frankly I'm ready to talk about almost any time, still alive.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:30

Still alive, 88 years young.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:32

I, I buried the man last week, guys.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:34

I'm really sorry.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:35

I conflated the actor with the man who smoked cigarettes on television for a decade.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:40

So you understand my, uh, error, but I do apologize to Mr. Davis.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:44

I hope he's thriving today.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:46

Uh, I also hope that he's watching the NBA finals.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:49

I don't know if anyone else in this room has been watching, but, um, the Knicks game last night was, like, the best TV I've seen this year.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:55

Kai, don't clip that, because our Widow's Bay content is just going wild right now, and I don't ever wanna be known as someone who's inconsistent in his fandom.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:02

But, um, that was an incredible, uh, that was incredible television.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:06

Last few things of notes to go through.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:09

Um, Slow Horses returns for Season 6, September 16th of this year.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:14

This is really one of the only constants in this madhouse that we call contemporary television and, and entertainment.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:22

I kind of love the flex here.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:24

This is all they released.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:25

Apple said that it was coming back, but we all knew it was coming back.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:28

This show puts a trailer for the next season at the end of the previous season's finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:33

Let's see the Pit do that.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:35

Um, this is their plot synopsis for their sixth-season returning show.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:39

"The Slow Horses are on the run-

Kaya McMullenPanelist5:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:42

... as Diana Taverner embroils them all in a fatally high-stakes game of retaliation and revenge." To which I add, is the Slow Horses PR person the easiest, cushiest job in Hollywood? Literally cut and paste.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:56

Cut and paste.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:57

Kaya, has there been a season of Slow Horses that that could not apply to?

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:00

to?Um, no, I, I have never really watched Slow Horses, but I-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:06

[laughs] Okay

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:06

... that, that summary just kind of gave me the gist of it, I think.

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:09

Isn't that what they do every season?

Andy GreenwaldHost6:11

Yeah, I mean, I think maybe the key is that they're all on the run.

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:14

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:14

Sometimes they amble, they're slow.

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:16

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:16

Sometimes they walk.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:17

Sometimes they stumble, but they are always embroiled in a fatally high-stakes game of retaliation and revenge, so business as usual.

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:24

And people will tune in.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:26

Two, and again, I don't know how you feel about this, Kya, but, um, a very [laughs] exciting new show announcement, at least as far as I'm concerned, uh, this week or since our last recording, Tucci in Great Britain.

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:38

Ooh.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:39

Tucci in Great Britain.

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:41

Ooh.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:41

Now, again, like the Slow Horses, uh, PR blurb, it's all right there in the title.

Kaya McMullenPanelist6:46

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:46

Uh, we rarely talk ...

Andy GreenwaldHost6:48

Because of Chris's editorial iron fist, we rarely talk about the perverse pleasures of Tucci in Italy or his previous show, which was just, like, Tucci Touches 'Em All or whatever it was called, but it was basically the same thing.

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:00

Wow, so the title is really Tucci in Great Britain?

Andy GreenwaldHost7:03

The title...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:03

Oh, you thought I was kidding.

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:04

No, I...

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:04

Yeah, I thought.

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:05

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:06

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:06

No, no, no.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:07

It is called Tucci in Great Britain, and longtime Tuccheads know that Stanley has lived in London for quite some time with his wife, um, Felicity Blunt, sister of-

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:18

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost7:18

...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:18

Emily Blunt.

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:19

Emily Blunt.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:19

And I really, really enjoy his sourpuss social media content, where he just sort of idly chops things and throws them in incredibly expensive pans in his incredibly expensive and beautiful kitchen in London and kind of complains about the weather.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:34

And as someone who, not to the degree that Stanley Tucci lives in Great Britain, but someone who has spent time there, I am ready for Stanley Tucci to show the world about the great food tradition of a country that is unfairly maligned.

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:47

I'm nodding vigorously.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:48

So do you wa- uh, Kya, do you like Tucci in Italy, or do you just like Tucci, comma, Italy? Like, you're fine with both of those things?

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:54

I do, yeah.

Kaya McMullenPanelist7:54

I, I l- never sat down and watched an episode of Tucci in Italy, but I love Stanley Tucci's Instagram content.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:00

Yes.

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:01

And I'm in support of all things Tucc, and I thought he was great in Devil Wears Prada, too.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:06

Which, by the way, I think maybe is on streaming already.

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:08

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:08

So now I can, I can watch it.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:10

My kids raced me to the box, ra- raced me to the multiplex to see it.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:14

Um, the other thing about the Tucci story that I love is I am all for and have long been all for, um, celebrities doing lifestyle boondoggles.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:23

I still mourn ...

Andy GreenwaldHost8:25

Do you remember the show The Wine Show with Matthew Rhys and, uh-

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:29

Oh, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost8:29

...

Andy GreenwaldHost8:29

Matthew Goode?

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:30

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:30

Where two of the most charming, uh, British actors alive just convince major corporations to pay for them to drink wine?

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:38

Wasn't his boat involved in that?

Andy GreenwaldHost8:41

Um, in the sense that that's another boondoggle.

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:43

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:43

I don't remember if his boat actually played a role, 'cause the show, I think they were traversing-

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:47

Mm

Andy GreenwaldHost8:47

... wine regions in Europe.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:49

Um-

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:49

It sounds like a great gig if you can get paid to do it.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:51

What a, what a charming guy.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:52

Anyway, unrelated, but I'm happy when people, um, use their, their powers for selfishness-

Kaya McMullenPanelist8:58

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost8:58

...

Andy GreenwaldHost8:58

in addition to good.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:59

Um, last thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:00

Okay, so Kya, I don't mean to put you on the spot here, and you are off camera, which I apologize for, but, um, you are our youth correspondent.

Kaya McMullenPanelist9:07

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:08

And I wondered if you had ever heard of a phenomenon called The Amazing Digital Circus.

Kaya McMullenPanelist9:12

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:13

Okay, so, uh, maybe some people, some daddings and momingtons are familiar with this, but The Amazing Digital Circus is a web series that premiered on YouTube in 2023 and then got upstreamed to Netflix.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:26

And I am only tangentially aware of it and maybe even mentioned it in passing once because, like with many of these things, my children, um, especially my younger daughter, got really, really into it.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:35

And what I would see as I walked past was essentially, um, a screensaver nightmare because it is t- to my eyes, like, extremely intense and kind of ugly.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:47

I don't know if that's partially the point, but basically it is a very, very, uh, noisy visually and otherwise web series about humans or human consciousnesses that are wake up trapped in this amazing digital circus, like, hellscape, where they are in these bodies, um, that are sold on T-shirts in Hot Topic now.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:10

Like, genuinely, like, one person is a rag doll named Ragatha, and one person is a, a crazy purple bunny named Jax.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:17

And they have these adventures that are also kind of torture, being led by a ringleader named Caine, who is a, like, talking, um, what do you call it? Like, like, he's basically dentures with eyeballs in his mouth.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:29

It was nine episodes.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:31

Fathom Entertainment released the f- final episode, much awaited final episode, into movie theaters paired with the eighth episode.

Kaya McMullenPanelist10:38

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:38

And I think people are like, "Oh, that's nice.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:40

Like, the fandom will show up.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:41

Maybe it'll make $10 million." It made $26 million in the box office for something that's gonna be on Netflix, I think, next week.

Kaya McMullenPanelist10:48

Sick.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:48

Um, and I went to the theater-

Kaya McMullenPanelist10:49

Oh

Andy GreenwaldHost10:49

... and I saw it, and I can't lie to you, there was a moment when, uh, and I got the popcorn, and I went over to the little bar in the Americana movie theater-

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:00

Were you-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:00

... called MacGuffin's

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:01

... with, with your children?

Andy GreenwaldHost11:02

Okay, thank you for asking that.

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:04

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:04

100% with my children.

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:06

Okay, great.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:06

One excitedly, one grudgingly.

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:09

Great.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:10

I took a picture of my children before the movie started, and one child was wearing a Jax sweatshirt excitedly.

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:15

Cute.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:15

And my other child looked like the Unabomber-

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:18

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost11:18

... because she had sunglasses on [laughs] and was texting furiously-

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:21

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:21

... um, and really was only there for the Junior Mints.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:23

But I can't lie, uh, there was a moment when I was in the theater being like, "I love the old, the old multiplex.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:28

Can't wait to see a movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:29

Oh, right, I'm [laughs] going to be seeing 80 minutes of YouTube animation."

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:33

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:34

But I have to say, I was shocked by this thing and not in a bad way.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:37

I was pretty riveted.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:39

This is not me talking about Euphoria exactly, but I can't say that I felt particularly lost having missed the first seven installments-

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:46

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost11:47

... of The Amazing Digital Circus.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:48

But what I was really struck by, and I, I'm, I'm trying, uh, y- your question was very valid, Kya, because I'm trying to get, uh, The Big Picture's Sean Fennessy to see this.

Kaya McMullenPanelist11:58

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:58

Um, and he asked if he could bring his much younger child to it.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:01

[laughs]

Kaya McMullenPanelist12:02

Great.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:02

And I assured him he could not, which does-

Kaya McMullenPanelist12:04

Oh

Andy GreenwaldHost12:04

... create the possibility ...

Andy GreenwaldHost12:06

There are a lot of swears in it.

Kaya McMullenPanelist12:07

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:07

It does create the possibility of, uh, maybe it's already happened, of Sean, hopefully not wearing a trench coat, going to see this movie alone.

Kaya McMullenPanelist12:14

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost12:14

[laughs]But what was crazy about it is that it is, yes, it is incredibly noisy, it is incredibly in your face, and it's pulling these references from, like, um, extreme, like, TikTok-

Chris RyanHost12:28

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost12:28

... fan edits-

Chris RyanHost12:29

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost12:29

.../Looney Tunes cartoons.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:31

But it was also simultaneously the single most earnest and emo piece of content that I have seen in quite some time.

Chris RyanHost12:38

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:38

Almost, like, punch you in the stomach with its sincerity and intensity.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:43

And I did a- I did a little digging into it, and it does make sense.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:46

This show is the brainchild of a 31-year-old, um, content creator, animator, composer, um, who goes by the name of Gooseworx.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:56

And it is extremely gamer coded, but it is also extremely, um...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:05

What's the word I would use? Uh, well, it- it's, it's gamer coded, it's incredibly queer friendly, and it's very post-

Chris RyanHost13:11

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost13:11

... therapy.

Chris RyanHost13:12

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:12

And the energy of it honestly reminded me of when I was interviewing Dashboard Confessional fans in 2002, except now there is no more amateurism about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:21

Now, all of the energy about, like, "I've been rejected by society, and it's very hard for me to connect, but that's all I wanna do is connect, but nothing will ever accept me," but with the professionalism of, "I will pour all of this into something that is going to make the Fathom entertainment company untold millions on a weekend in June." So fascinating content.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:39

This is my report from Youth Island.

Chris RyanHost13:40

Where, and where are we on the scale of the kids are all right after watching this?

Andy GreenwaldHost13:45

Thank you for asking that question, too, because I actually...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:48

I mean, my younger daughter was, uh, pre-apologizing.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:51

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost13:51

[laughs] That's nice.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:53

Um, she was also very worried going in because Jax the rabbit is her favorite character, and she was pretty scared that he was going to abstract.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:01

Because just to give you guys the full story about what happens here, the longer you are in this digital hellscape, the more unhinged you become from who you were or who you believe yourself to have been in reality.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:12

And at a certain point, some of the previous characters, including a, uh, a clown and I believe a bear, uh, abstracted.

Chris RyanHost14:20

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:20

Which means they turn into, like, kind of weird nightmare monsters with rainbow eyes, and they're g- they're lost.

Chris RyanHost14:27

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:27

They've lost themselves.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:28

So she was worried Jax was gonna abstract.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:30

Uh, I won't spoil.

Chris RyanHost14:32

Thank you.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:32

I will say that we get Jax's backstory, which is so dark.

Chris RyanHost14:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost14:37

So dark, it involves pushing his mother and becoming unhoused.

Chris RyanHost14:41

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:41

And, um, then Pomni, who is kind of the heroine, travels through his psyche.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:48

And there are shades of Inside Out, and there's also shades of Severance.

Chris RyanHost14:51

Ooh.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:51

And it's this absolute blender of insanity, and I'm really glad Chris is, um, you know, pressing the flesh with voters because-

Chris RyanHost14:58

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost14:58

...

Andy GreenwaldHost14:58

he would not care for this.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:00

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:00

No. Chris would've cut you off five minutes ago.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:03

Ch- [laughs] How would Chris have been able to segue from this into a take on the Lioness season three trailer?

Chris RyanHost15:10

I don't even think he would've segued.

Chris RyanHost15:11

I think he would've just said, "And now Lioness."

Andy GreenwaldHost15:14

Can I ask you guys a question since he's not here?

Chris RyanHost15:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:16

Does he have a mute button for me?

Chris RyanHost15:18

No, but I mean, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:19

Like, like, does he have access to that? [laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:20

I, I am, uh, I'm the only one with access to a mute button.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:23

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:23

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:23

I can cut your mic at any time.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:24

Thank you, Kaya.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:25

On that note, having delved into the world of culture that was frankly eye-opening and a little bit terrifying, um, but, you know, that's actually not true.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:33

Kind of ultimately wholesome.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:35

We should probably get into some more wholesome content.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:37

Um, so to recap, Chris and I are going to...

Andy GreenwaldHost15:40

Chris is gonna magically appear.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:42

I have a button that can do that.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:43

We're gonna talk about Widow's Bay penultimate episode, episode nine, Emergency Shelter.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:49

Um, all spoilers for that.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:50

Obviously, the episode premiered the other day.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:53

And then straight out of that conversation, we will go into my interview with Gail Simmons discussing, spoiling Top Chef season 23.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:01

I look forward to you enjoying both of those things.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:05

This episode is brought to you by FanDuel Predicts.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:07

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Andy GreenwaldHost16:12

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Andy GreenwaldHost16:39

See terms at fanduel.com/predicts/bonus-offer-terms.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:46

Here we are, Andy.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:48

You have presumably done the beginning of this show.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:50

We are dressed suspiciously like we were on Monday.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:53

And-

Chris RyanHost16:53

Well, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:53

It's, it's laundry week.

Chris RyanHost16:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:54

We are here to talk about the penultimate episode of season one of Widow's Bay.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:59

This one is called Emergency Shelter.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:01

Hiro Murai is back behind the camera-

Chris RyanHost17:03

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost17:03

... for these last two episodes.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:05

Uh, Tom, Patricia Wicke, and Rosemary try to find out the lineage of Richard Warren as a storm shuts down the island, sending everyone into shelters.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:14

Everyone bar one very important resident.

Chris RyanHost17:17

Hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:18

Um, I wanna talk to you about a pretty significant tonal shift that occurs in this episode.

Chris RyanHost17:23

I'm glad you...

Chris RyanHost17:24

I thought you were gonna talk to me about accountability when I-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:27

Or-

Chris RyanHost17:27

... dictated exactly what was going to happen, and I was...

Chris RyanHost17:30

I got you 80% of the way there.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:31

Did you?

Chris RyanHost17:31

And I was wrong.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:32

When did you do that? Last week?

Chris RyanHost17:34

Um, yeah, two weeks.

Chris RyanHost17:35

No, two weeks ago when I was like-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:37

This is what's-

Chris RyanHost17:37

... "One of the children escaped from the boat and swam back-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:39

Oh, yes

Chris RyanHost17:39

... and had a child." And-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:40

You were very, you were very good about that.

Chris RyanHost17:42

But I was wrong about-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:43

About who the, the, the, the seed was.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:46

The seed.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:47

Uh, you were worried it was Evan?

Chris RyanHost17:49

I wasn't worried.

Chris RyanHost17:49

I was enthused.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:50

Okay.

Chris RyanHost17:51

But yes, I thought it was Evan.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:51

Turns out it's not Evan.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:52

It's Ruth, the-

Chris RyanHost17:53

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost17:54

... beloved yet, you know, comical assistant who only works half days.

Chris RyanHost17:58

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:59

Um-

Chris RyanHost18:00

Sorry, but tonal shift.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:01

Tonal shift in this series.

Chris RyanHost18:02

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:02

So we have talked about the, the, the horror/comedy balance that Katie Dippold and her team has struck this-

Chris RyanHost18:08

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost18:09

...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:09

this season.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:09

It's been an ama- honestly, like, one of the delights of TV over the last couple of years to watch them kind of figure out how to mix funny with scary.

Chris RyanHost18:18

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:18

And then m- jump from subgenre to subgenre and homage to homage from episode to episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:24

This one felt-

Chris RyanHost18:25

felt-A little bit more like a moral quandary, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:29

Mm.

Chris RyanHost18:29

I guess.

Chris RyanHost18:30

Uh, this is basically like the, the, what is it? The trolley car thing where it's like, do you save-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:35

Oh

Chris RyanHost18:35

... one per- do you kill one person to save many?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:37

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost18:38

And on top of that-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:39

See, someone's watched The Good Place.

Chris RyanHost18:40

I think also there's a lot of, um, a, a lot of like what would be real world consequences and real world tensions-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:49

Yeah

Chris RyanHost18:49

... of, of this show have kinda come to a head.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:52

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost18:52

The Shearer trying to get off the island, Wick being like, "I'm not a comic relief character.

Chris RyanHost18:57

I'm actually here to liberate this place from hundreds of years-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:01

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost19:01

... of, of damnation." Um, Tom's kind of a- arriving at this moment where, you know, he obviously cares about his son and he cares about, like, the future of the island, but ev- eventually is like, kind of like, "We need to do what needs to be done." And Patricia moving into more of a, like, voice of reason character.

Chris RyanHost19:20

So what did you think of, of this episode in terms of its tonal shift?

Andy GreenwaldHost19:25

I wanna be very clear about what I'm about to say, 'cause I'm gonna immediately follow up.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:29

I'm not gonna leave it alone.

Chris RyanHost19:30

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:31

This is the weakest episode of Widow's Bay of the season, and I love it for that.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:36

I say the weakest because this is the first episode that felt like connective tissue.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:43

This is the first episode that locked into what appears to be the, the rest of the ride.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:49

Like that moment when you are at an amusement park or something and you're sitting in the weird little car on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride or whatever, and it brings you right to the precipice of something, and then you feel the old machi- machinery click and suddenly you're turning left because that's where you're going next.

Chris RyanHost20:02

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:02

That's what happened in this episode as it went from, to your point, being about everything that's happened in the past, everything that could happen in such a wildly hi-jinksy, horror-filled island, everything that could happen when you have a writers' room led by Katie Dippold, who are completely, um, in a hysterical creative frenzy about all their shared references in their, like, the bad parties they went to and also the bad horror movies they've seen their entire lives, and even some of the good ones, and now it's going to be about something.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:29

And it's a tension that we talk about constantly when we talk about many different types of shows.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:35

It's re- the most fun creatively making the show, and often watching it, is the we're just throwing stuff at the wall and we're seeing what we can get away with.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:42

But eventually, when you're ending, and I don't mean the series is ending, but you are ending a season and you are paying the tax on the decision to make it serialize in a different way, you gotta choose.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:53

You gotta be about something.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:54

And what I loved about an episode that I am calling the weakest of the season was that even within that hard pivot, there was room for insane humor.

Chris RyanHost21:06

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:07

Like when, um, Dale Dickey's character-

Chris RyanHost21:10

Rosemary

Andy GreenwaldHost21:10

...

Andy GreenwaldHost21:10

Rosemary.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:12

When Rosemary goes through the genealogy chart.

Chris RyanHost21:15

Dead baby, dead baby, dead baby.

Chris RyanHost21:17

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost21:17

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:17

Dead baby, dead baby, dead baby, lesbian.

Chris RyanHost21:20

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:20

Dead baby.

Chris RyanHost21:21

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:22

And then Patricia says, "Please stop saying that." And she says, "Oh, we're not, I'm not allowed to say that anymore?"

Chris RyanHost21:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:27

And she says, "Not like that." And she goes, "Fine." And then she circles the next generation and says, "Retards, all of them."

Chris RyanHost21:33

[laughs] Yeah.

Chris RyanHost21:35

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:37

This is a show-

Chris RyanHost21:38

What was, there was one character who was like the, like something Hortense.

Chris RyanHost21:41

What was the adjec- like, that person had, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:43

Oh, it was like Disappointing Hortense or Hortense the-

Chris RyanHost21:46

Yeah, Disapp- [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:46

I, I didn't note that down, but-

Chris RyanHost21:48

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost21:48

...

Andy GreenwaldHost21:48

but this is a show that is so deeply in its bag and so comfortable with itself that it can carve out space for, I mean, quite broad physical comedy, like Tom's temper tantrum in which a picture falls on him, and then no one's [laughs] then Rosemary says, "Don't save him."

Chris RyanHost22:04

So that's the thing that was funny.

Chris RyanHost22:05

I, the tonal shift for me is that it was not a funny episode, but I laughed hardest maybe-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:10

Yes

Chris RyanHost22:10

... of the entire season was, the two t- times I've laughed the hardest this season-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:14

Let's go

Chris RyanHost22:14

... are fucking Matthew Rhys battling that painting-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:17

Yes

Chris RyanHost22:18

... having it nearly bisect him.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:20

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost22:20

And then when he's like, "Kenny, help me," like, they're like, "Stand back.

Chris RyanHost22:24

[laughs] He could have a spinal cord injury."

Andy GreenwaldHost22:26

And then Rosemary throws out her own back trying to help him before the strongman-

Chris RyanHost22:29

Her sciatica.

Chris RyanHost22:29

And then the other bit is his-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:31

Do it

Chris RyanHost22:31

... thing with the lighthouse guy.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:32

It's perfect.

Chris RyanHost22:33

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost22:33

It's like this is a joke that could travel through time.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:36

Like, you could explain the setup of the lighthouse generator joke to the Founding Fathers of this island-

Chris RyanHost22:43

And they'd be like, "That's pretty funny."

Andy GreenwaldHost22:44

They'd be like, [laughs] "Yeah, like we're, we're living in hell, but I have to give it to you.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:47

That's a good one."

Chris RyanHost22:48

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:49

The joke being that the radio to the, the old lighthouse keeper, who we never really see-

Chris RyanHost22:54

Garrett

Andy GreenwaldHost22:55

...

Andy GreenwaldHost22:55

Garrett.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:55

We, Tom thinks he's not being heard about needing the, the power, uh, generator or starter from the lighthouse, so he drives through perilous storm conditions to get there [laughs] only for Garrett to wave at him from where he just came.

Chris RyanHost23:07

Yes.

Chris RyanHost23:08

And then it turns out Garrett's doing this all on a bicycle, and is like, "I'll come back to you," and he's like, "No, wait," and he has to drive back.

Chris RyanHost23:14

There's so many, like, little funny sight gags in this episode, but at the same time, I felt like be...

Chris RyanHost23:19

And maybe it's the conversation between Wick, Tom, and Patricia which is played with no laughs whatsoever-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:25

Yeah

Chris RyanHost23:25

... pretty much, you know? And, and the fact that-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:27

It's, it's very sober

Chris RyanHost23:28

... you know, we've, we've got a lot of, like, the sort of, like, lore parts of the story have now activated.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:37

Mm.

Chris RyanHost23:37

You know? Like, and now we are really truly watching this, this island, you know, come under the, the, u- under attack, really-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:44

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost23:44

... by, by a demonic storm.

Chris RyanHost23:46

The interesting thing to me also is that, like, you know, when I started this episode and it said it was 31 minutes, I was like, "Well, this is either gonna be one of the great 31 minutes of my life, or it's what I think it is, which is essentially part one of the finale."

Andy GreenwaldHost23:58

That's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:58

That's what it was.

Chris RyanHost23:59

And if the, the-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:00

'Cause it ends quite, "Oh, here we go."

Chris RyanHost24:01

And if they had put, like, this up as a one-hour finale and it's a nine-episode season, I think I would've been deeply satisfied, but it, it just so happens that they, that they extended it.

Chris RyanHost24:12

Um, what were some of the other things that jumped out at you about this episode, aside from the, the death of our, our favorite mushroom dealer? The shaman.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:20

Well, I mean, it, it's a bummer.

Chris RyanHost24:21

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:21

Um-

Chris RyanHost24:22

Chris Lemme's incredible.

Chris RyanHost24:22

I hope he co- I hope they find him in a tree, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost24:25

Yeah, I, I was thinking that too.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:26

Like, when they made the show and they hired Chris Lemme to play this one small part, they were probably like, "Man, this guy's great.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:32

Who can we, in the Simpsons-esque Springfield ... uh, cast of characters that we've already created.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:37

Who can we sacrifice to the vengeful tornado gods? He was a pretty funny option, especially because he wouldn't leave his socks because he said he needed them.

Chris RyanHost24:44

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:45

Um, but to your point, like-

Chris RyanHost24:47

I need these.

Chris RyanHost24:48

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost24:48

The, the, the, the, the moment when they made the show essentially in a bubble of their own enthusiasm and good spirits and creativity versus now when people genuinely, not just us, love it, like I don't know if they would make the same decision.

Chris RyanHost25:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:03

Like, let's burn this ascendant comedian's funny side character, but that's the freedom of what's to come.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:08

And part of the fun of watching the show has always been watching it for purely what it is, then also admiring the construction behind it, and part of the construction behind it that I'm watching now is what is their plan to resolve the show? Because I 100% believe that Katie and Hiro took nothing for granted and will resolve aspects of the story.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:29

Like, does it end with Tom and Evan at a Red Sox game? Maybe.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:33

Um, but they, there, there are legs here, and there's somewhere else for this to go.

Chris RyanHost25:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:39

So the question is what's it going to be-

Chris RyanHost25:40

Do you think this is gonna be the only season of the show?

Andy GreenwaldHost25:41

No. Yeah, I don't have insider knowledge, but I just deeply, deeply-

Chris RyanHost25:44

I don't either, but I wonder if they had known what a sensation it would become if they would have had this storm hitting in the end of the first season and, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:51

I think they would in the sense that she knows...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:54

I mean, again, I think we're gonna get a chance to talk to her about it, but like it's, and it's not fair to reduce anyone to their influences, but it's interesting watching this as such an incredibly successful distillation of serialized storytelling and episodic storytelling from someone who is a veteran of Parks and Recreation, which was so good at m- managing the line between the two, who then went on to write movies.

Chris RyanHost26:15

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:16

And knowing that you gotta leave it all on the table and tell your full story.

Chris RyanHost26:19

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:20

Um, then there's a third piece.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:22

What do you hold onto? Where do you go next? And I, I was thinking about this show's just at this point seemingly effortless ability to transition between what you were saying, serious emotional reckonings between the characters who are 100% the same characters they've been in every episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:40

Patricia, the one who's sitting there being concerned or wanting to protect Tom or wanting to move things along is the same woman who just tased a lady having a wine club meeting.

Chris RyanHost26:49

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:49

That's still the same person.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:50

But so a, a show that can manage the reality of them as well as the surreality of them, um, episode to episode, but then also...

Andy GreenwaldHost27:01

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:01

I, I'm getting lost in the sauce of my own analogy about what are these characters.

Chris RyanHost27:04

No, I know what you mean.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:04

Sh- They, it-

Chris RyanHost27:05

It's like they can have repeatable like TV bones, but it, they can be put into like almost movie scenarios, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost27:12

And it, what I was thinking about when I was watching them just do this, it can be broad, it can be specific, it can be light, it can be dark.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:19

I was thinking about The Bear, which is coming back, um-

Chris RyanHost27:22

At the end of the month

Andy GreenwaldHost27:22

...

Andy GreenwaldHost27:22

in just a couple weeks at this point.

Chris RyanHost27:24

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:24

And I was thinking about the genuinely organic, beautifully thrilling excitement of the first season in which we were looking at characters who were c- seemingly capable of everything also in a show that was able to straddle multiple tones despite what the, the, the hacks lobby would j- would have you believe.

Chris RyanHost27:42

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost27:42

The Bear Season 1 was hilarious.

Chris RyanHost27:44

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:44

And im- impossibly tense, you know? And the inevitabilities of long-form storytelling, maybe when you didn't intend for there to be long-form storytelling, it wears on shows.

Chris RyanHost27:56

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:56

It wears on characters.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:57

They become less elastic.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:59

So I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here, but I was really present in appreciating what's capable right now.

Chris RyanHost28:04

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost28:05

I mean, there's...

Chris RyanHost28:08

I, I, I guess I, I would assume based on what I know about the m- moral world of this show-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:16

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost28:16

... that there will be a wrinkle to the Ruth storyline.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:19

They're not gonna kill an old lady next week?

Chris RyanHost28:21

Yeah, I don't think...

Chris RyanHost28:22

I mean, I think that honestly I would say Stephen Root has been remarkable on this show, and for as much as I admire Cato Flynn and, and M- Matthew Rhys' performances, Stephen Root is...

Chris RyanHost28:33

That part could go wrong.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:34

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost28:35

Like, that part could be like way too much yelling at clouds, way too much like this guy wouldn't be fit.

Chris RyanHost28:41

Nobody would let him into a restaurant or nobody would want him in, like...

Chris RyanHost28:44

He, he kind of like embodies like a worn out, weathered truthsayer in this series.

Chris RyanHost28:51

And, um, I certainly really hope he continues on because he's such a wonderful addition to this show, but I'll be fascinated to see.

Chris RyanHost29:00

I mean, presumably they're gonna traverse across an island to go find p- go find Ruth, um, with a giant tornado streaking across it.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:08

Stephen Root we don't talk about enough because he's like woven into the American television fabric to a degree that is almost supernatural.

Chris RyanHost29:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:17

But if you think about like the first time I became aware of Stephen Root as an actor was watching Newsradio.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:22

When he takes a part that within two or three appearances you're like, "Well, no one else could play this part." This is so s- so deeply, deeply specific and so remarkable that I can't...

Andy GreenwaldHost29:33

But I also can't say that as a 19-year-old I was like, "That's a generational actor right there." I was like, "That guy's really funny." But you think about how at least in three cases, and I imagine if I did a deep dive on his filmography there maybe would be more to pick out, but Newsradio, but particularly recently with Barry and with Widow's Bay, the television shows do not work without Stephen Root.

Chris RyanHost29:56

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:57

I, I'm not saying they wouldn't be well-written, but if Stephen Root isn't playing the part he plays on Barry the way that he plays it in a way that only he can, and specifically here with Widow's Bay as well, which is everything he does is so knowing and broad and clever and comic, but also so soulful and technically precise that the show doesn't work.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:17

It just, I, I mean, I, I can't imagine there was anyone else on their wish list.

Chris RyanHost30:21

I mean, it's also like he's been doing this for 40 years.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:24

Yes.

Chris RyanHost30:25

Uh, but yeah.

Chris RyanHost30:26

I was just r- I forgot that he was Judge Mike Reardon on, on Justified.

Chris RyanHost30:31

Uh, he was on Good Wife.

Chris RyanHost30:33

He was on Boardwalk Empire.

Chris RyanHost30:35

He is in Uh, The Newsroom for two episodes.

Chris RyanHost30:40

He's on Fargo for two episodes.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:42

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost30:43

I mean, this is, it's just such an insane-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:45

One, one sneaky thing is that I know the Coen brothers are celebrated, but I don't know if we've-

Chris RyanHost30:53

Seven episodes of, of Perry Mason with Matthew Rhys, which I wonder if that's where that relationship started.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:58

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:58

But do you feel like the Coen brothers get enough credit for telling us about people? Like, it was the Coen brothers...

Andy GreenwaldHost31:03

Like, I, I know that, like, John Goodman was, like, a great, he was a great theater actor.

Chris RyanHost31:06

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:06

And everyone was like, "Wow, this guy's really got, got the sauce." But the Coen brothers, like, when they see someone who can do what they want, they're telling us something about-

Chris RyanHost31:15

Is this his first one with them, O Brother?

Andy GreenwaldHost31:17

Who?

Chris RyanHost31:17

Stephen Root.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:18

Uh, I think so.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:20

But I just mean when, like, people like Stephen Root start showing up even, like, in the later movies.

Chris RyanHost31:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:23

You're like, "Oh, that's a guy who can do this."

Chris RyanHost31:25

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:25

You know, in the tradition of a Turturro or a John Goodman, um, there's just this...

Andy GreenwaldHost31:31

Or, or a Michael Stuhlbarg, there's, like, a specificity of the type of performer that is basically telling you, Tim Blake Nelson, like, "Oh, these guys can pretty much do anything-

Chris RyanHost31:39

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost31:39

... and should be working twice as much as they do," and they already work quite a lot.

Chris RyanHost31:43

What do you think of the Bashir plot line, the late introduction of his wife, and this pregnancy that needs to, that also has, like, a degree of urgency? Because before it was just like-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:55

Yeah

Chris RyanHost31:55

... "Oh, wouldn't it be nice if Evan could get off the island and blow off some steam, go to college maybe?" And now it's like, well, they all know that if you're born here you're doomed, so they r- there was, like, this push to get Bashir's wife off of the island from Patricia.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:08

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost32:09

And now it's like, you know.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:10

And the wick scene there is great.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:11

What's the plan here-

Chris RyanHost32:12

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost32:12

... with the boats? Um-

Chris RyanHost32:13

That's great.

Chris RyanHost32:13

That, that boat came here on a boat.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:15

Great line.

Chris RyanHost32:15

It was a great line, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:16

Uh, I, I think that there is an element of engineering to good television writing and to showrunning, and the ability to be deeply within the characters and in within the script to write funny jokes or have some kind of consistency is one thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:33

But to also be able to step back with some perspective and say, "You know what? This is actually a load-bearing wall, and we're gonna need to shore it up a little bit."

Chris RyanHost32:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:39

And the show could work hurdling towards a finale f- hyper-focused on the three leads and what freedom might mean for them from this curse.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:48

But it works a lot better if there's, like, a ticking baby clock [laughs] of a future generation-

Chris RyanHost32:55

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost32:55

... that could be saved more than... 'Cause, like, what are the s- Like, again, we're thinking about what are the stakes for all these characters, and we understand deeply Evan's unfortunate life and his limited claustrophobic existence and, like, why he wants to act up and get out.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:07

But the stakes of him living essentially well enough for 17 years without going to a Red Sox game doesn't hit as hard as this young f- this young couple, uh, the, the young family anyway, like, who don't really wanna be here, will be cursed to live here forever.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:24

It just hits different.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:25

It's just smart engineering.

Chris RyanHost33:26

It really is.

Chris RyanHost33:27

Uh, I cannot wait for the finale.

Chris RyanHost33:28

Hopefully we'll have Katie on to discuss it, uh, next week.

Chris RyanHost33:32

I will leave you to the rest of the episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:34

What do you think I'm gonna do? This is exciting.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:35

At this point, decisions will have been made, announcements, introductions will have happened.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:40

Do you have any crystal ball predictions for what I've already said about you-

Chris RyanHost33:44

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost33:44

... about how I feel about you, about how I feel about you not being here?

Chris RyanHost33:48

This is why I listen, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost33:50

It's why I don't.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:51

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost33:51

[laughs] Thanks to Kaya and Kaya.

Chris RyanHost33:53

Uh, we'll be back on Monday with some combination of, of, uh, wonderful television talk.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:59

You'll just talk to me about Cape Fear.

Chris RyanHost34:00

That's right.

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Bonjour, compadre.

It's the-

Priceline Negotiator.

How do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget, the Priceline app.

It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle deals, game day deals, concert trip deals.

No one deals more deals than Priceline.

[upbeat music] Hold your horses.

There's more.

The app lets you filter hotels by neighborhood, vibe, star level, and amenities like pools and spas and beachfronts and... [upbeat music] Wait, I'm not done.

[upbeat music] Stop cutting me off.

Priceline.

So you're saying with Hilton Honors I can use points for a free night stay anywhere? Anywhere.

[upbeat music] What about fancy places like the Canopy in Paris? Yeah.

Hilton Honors, baby.

Or relaxing sanctuaries like the Conrad in Tulum? Hilton Honors, baby.

Ooh, what about the five-star Waldorf Astoria in the Maldives? Are you gonna do this for all 9,000 properties? When you want points that can take you anywhere, anytime, it matters where you stay.

Hilton.

For the stay.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:01

I am so happy to be joined yet again.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:04

I don't know if this is the third year or the fourth year.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:06

It, it, it feel-

Chris RyanHost36:06

At least

Andy GreenwaldHost36:07

... we feel lucky every time we get to do it.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:08

We are joined by the executive producer and judge of Top Chef, our f- official favorite Canadian, Gail Simmons.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:15

Welcome back to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost36:16

I'm honored.

Chris RyanHost36:17

Thank you so much.

Chris RyanHost36:17

I always love talking to you.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:19

I am really excited to talk to you.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:20

We have a lot to cover for Season 23.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:22

We have some good, we have some bad, and we have some-

Chris RyanHost36:25

Hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost36:25

... not ugly, but some curious.

Chris RyanHost36:28

Less attractive-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:29

Yeah

Chris RyanHost36:29

... perhaps, but also really interesting.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:31

Fascinating, if I may.

Chris RyanHost36:32

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:33

So I do think we should start where we just ended, which is the finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:37

Sherry, Lawrence, and Rhoda are our final three, and I wondered if- You could give some insight into how much time, because it did feel like, again, I may be wrong about this, that there wasn't a gap this year between-

Gail SimmonsGuest36:49

There wasn't a gap, that's right

Andy GreenwaldHost36:50

... you, you-

Gail SimmonsGuest36:50

Because we didn't travel for our finale as we usually do.

Gail SimmonsGuest36:54

Um, we went right through all in the Carolinas.

Gail SimmonsGuest36:58

And you know, I was actually very mixed about that from a production standpoint.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:02

Mm-hmm.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:02

When they told us that that was the schedule we had to keep to, I brought it up several times, uh, with our showrunner, Dani, who I also think maybe has spoken to you over the years.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:11

But, um, she...

Gail SimmonsGuest37:14

I was worried that usually our chefs get a reset.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:17

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost37:17

Yeah.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:17

They get two weeks or so between the bulk of the season and that last, let's say, two to three episodes to get back to their life, um, rest, recoup, get their creative juices flowing again, craft this final menu

Andy GreenwaldHost37:33

Mm-hmm

Gail SimmonsGuest37:33

... uh, they got none of that this time.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:35

But the flip side was that they just were running.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:41

Yeah.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:41

You know what I mean? They didn't stop and then there's kind of a lull and you forget the, and you're not sort of in the moment anymore, and then you have to get back in the moment.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:48

So there's two sides to the argument.

Gail SimmonsGuest37:49

This is one of the first times...

Gail SimmonsGuest37:51

Uh, the only other time I can think of when we didn't take a gap was during the pandemic-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:57

Yeah

Gail SimmonsGuest37:57

...

Gail SimmonsGuest37:57

when we were in, um, Portland, Oregon.

Gail SimmonsGuest38:01

But you know what? I think it worked.

Gail SimmonsGuest38:02

I do.

Gail SimmonsGuest38:03

I think that their menus were what they would've been either way, and I think that the final three were just sort of plowing forward.

Gail SimmonsGuest38:11

I mean, they were in a zone.

Gail SimmonsGuest38:12

They were, as they said many times, locked in.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:16

Yeah, much like the New York Knicks.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:17

There's something to be said about being streaky.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:20

Um-

Gail SimmonsGuest38:20

That's right

Andy GreenwaldHost38:20

...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:21

the only thing I really la...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:22

I, I missed was the, the hairstyle glow-up that we often get from the contestants-

Gail SimmonsGuest38:26

Yes, that's true

Andy GreenwaldHost38:27

... between...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:27

That was a shame.

Gail SimmonsGuest38:28

They... [laughs]