The Best Shows of the Year (So Far)

Jul 16, 2026 · 1 hr 25 min · 14 segments

Chris and Andy talk about the trailers for Tony Gilroy’s ‘Behemoth!’ (10:51) and Ryan Murphy’s adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis’s novel ‘The Shards’ (16:26). Then they reveal their favorite shows of the year so far, including everything from ‘Industry’ and ‘The Pitt’ to ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ and ‘Beef,' and they reflect on the year in television up until this point (20:09). Later, The Watch: After Dark (0:00). Subscribe to the [Ringer TV YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@Ringer-TV) here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit [podcastchoices.com/adchoices](https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices)

Speakers: Andy GreenwaldHostChris RyanHost

Top entities: Dean Potter×14 Andy Greenwald×13 The Odyssey×9 Priceline.com×6 Tony Gilroy×6

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Show Opening & Host Welcome1:00 – 1:34

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00

[percussive music] I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08

Stand up and walk, now.

Chris RyanHost1:11

Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost1:13

My name is Chris Ryan.

Chris RyanHost1:15

I am an editor at theringer.com, and joining me in the studio, tearfully singing Talk Tonight instead of Wonderwall-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23

Chris RyanHost1:23

... it's Andy Greenwald.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26

It's terrible.

Chris RyanHost1:26

It's not coming home.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28

It turns out-

Chris RyanHost1:29

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29

it is not coming home.

Chris RyanHost1:30

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30

Thank you for having me on the Bill Simmons Podcast, Chris.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32

I appreciate it.

Chris RyanHost1:33

Yeah.

Bill Simmons Guest-Host Debrief & Weekend Chatter1:34 – 11:50

Chris RyanHost1:34

I, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34

It's nice to be here

Chris RyanHost1:35

...

Chris RyanHost1:35

I, I guess I, I, I should say, I, I got to host the Bill Simmons Podcast yesterday.

Chris RyanHost1:39

Uh, I had Ian Wright and Anthony DeBundo and Sean Fennessy on.

Chris RyanHost1:43

We talked about the England-Argentina match.

Chris RyanHost1:46

We talked about The Odyssey.

Chris RyanHost1:47

DeBundo and Ian Wright had a lot of thoughts on The Odyssey, and Sean Fennessy-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:50

Did they? [laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:51

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:51

[laughs] And Sean Fennessy thought Donostukle was a coward.

Chris RyanHost1:53

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:53

The great Zag.

Chris RyanHost1:54

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:55

I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:56

First of all, congratulations.

Chris RyanHost1:57

Thanks, man.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:57

It's no small achievement.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:58

It's a great podcast.

Chris RyanHost1:59

It is.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:00

Um, would you like a constructive note?

Chris RyanHost2:03

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:03

I just think-

Chris RyanHost2:04

Did you listen?

Andy GreenwaldHost2:06

I s- I started it.

Chris RyanHost2:07

Oh, yeah?

Andy GreenwaldHost2:07

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:08

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:08

No, it's good.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:09

It's, it's...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:09

Listen, it's good.

Chris RyanHost2:10

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:11

It's good.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:12

My note, though, is the next time that he gives you the keys to his choice ride, I think you gotta be a little bit more like the parking garage attendants in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

Chris RyanHost2:23

So you think I played it too safe?

Andy GreenwaldHost2:25

I think you gotta open it up.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:26

You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost2:27

Do...

Chris RyanHost2:27

When you say that-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:28

Yeah

Chris RyanHost2:28

... do you mean I needed to open it up, like me personally, and just start going like, "Bing bong, it's Wayne Jenkins," or do you think-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:35

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost2:36

Like, is it Morning Zoo-it-up, or do you think-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:38

Chris RyanHost2:38

...

Chris RyanHost2:38

the guests were too conservative?

Andy GreenwaldHost2:40

No, no, no.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:40

I just think...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:41

First of all, great question, great phrasing.

Chris RyanHost2:44

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:45

You would've done numbers if you had done CR's Side Talk.

Chris RyanHost2:48

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:49

Um, I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:50

I just feel like I want...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:52

You did bring some of yourself to it, clearly.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:54

Because you brought soccer and you brought Sean Fennessy.

Chris RyanHost2:58

And The Odyssey.

Chris RyanHost2:58

Yeah, I like that.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:59

You like that stuff.

Chris RyanHost3:00

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:00

Um, I'm just trying to think of, like, maybe some more personal, like a deep dive into Len Deighton's, like, later works.

Chris RyanHost3:06

So you wanted to be included is what you're saying.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:08

No, no, you wouldn't talk to me.

Chris RyanHost3:09

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:10

You would talk to, like-

Chris RyanHost3:10

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost3:10

...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:10

Len Deighton's son, Ben Deighton or something.

Chris RyanHost3:13

I just don't-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:13

You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost3:14

Here's the thing y- you gotta learn about being political in this world, is-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:17

This is...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:17

Yes, yes, yeah

Chris RyanHost3:19

... you and me, we're the, we're the primary, but when you get to Bill, it's the general, and you gotta pivot to the center a little bit.

Chris RyanHost3:25

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:25

Oh, right.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:26

Because I'm running to your left.

Chris RyanHost3:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:29

That's totally right.

Chris RyanHost3:30

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:30

When you get to the general-

Chris RyanHost3:31

That's when I turn into Haley Stevens.

Chris RyanHost3:32

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:33

[laughs] Totally true.

Chris RyanHost3:36

My heads will get that one.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:37

It's totally right.

Chris RyanHost3:38

When the shit heads.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:39

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:39

Well, I thought you did a great job.

Chris RyanHost3:40

Thanks.

Chris RyanHost3:40

No, thank you.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:41

And that is exciting.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:42

And we have a lot to talk about.

Chris RyanHost3:43

Did you actually listen? I can't tell.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:45

I started it, but then I was sitting in my car-

Chris RyanHost3:47

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:47

... and I was gonna, like, crush more of it on, like, 4X.

Chris RyanHost3:50

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:50

And then you saw me sitting in my car in the parking lot.

Chris RyanHost3:51

And I was like, "What's up, man?" And-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:52

Well, no, you did the thing you usually do, which is check if I'm weeping, which was cool.

Chris RyanHost3:56

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:56

I wasn't.

Chris RyanHost3:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:57

[laughs] Can you imagine if every day you're like, "Is he gonna be crying again?"

Chris RyanHost4:03

"Is that fucker crying again?" Uh, Andy, what a day on the podcast today.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:05

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost4:05

Because, uh, we'll do some Watch After Dark about our weekend in Philly and our-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:09

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost4:09

... experience, uh, with the World Cup as it comes to a conclusion.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:13

That, that's all coming at the end? Oh, man, I'm chomping at the bit.

Chris RyanHost4:15

If you wanna do it now, the-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:16

No, no, but-

Chris RyanHost4:16

...

Chris RyanHost4:16

After Dark can be in the morning

Andy GreenwaldHost4:18

... tell the people, I think that's gonna happen for most of America.

Chris RyanHost4:21

For now, you're still the co-host here, so you can, you can make the decisions, too.

Chris RyanHost4:24

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:24

Isn't After Dark gonna be the norm for most of America once daylight savings time becomes permanent? Did you read about this?

Chris RyanHost4:30

I did read about this.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:31

That's-

Chris RyanHost4:31

I mean, I've, I've been reading the news this whole, this whole month.

Chris RyanHost4:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:33

No wonder you're so cheerful.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:34

Okay.

Chris RyanHost4:35

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:35

Finish, finish the rundown.

Chris RyanHost4:36

I'm, I'm in a good mood.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:37

I know, because-

Chris RyanHost4:38

And I'll tell you why.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost4:39

Because today we're gonna do the best TV of the year so far.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:42

Okay.

Chris RyanHost4:42

Um, we've reached this sort of like...

Chris RyanHost4:45

You know, obviously it's quite late in July.

Chris RyanHost4:47

It's an odd time to be doing the best TV of the first half of the year, uh, because it's, more than half of the year is over.

Chris RyanHost4:53

But, uh, now that we got all the Emmy shows kind of out of our system and under the wire to be, uh, considered for-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:00

Yeah

Chris RyanHost5:00

... awards consideration, and we have hit a little bit of a dead zone where, you know, you've got House of the Dragon still running.

Chris RyanHost5:08

Um, people may be catching up on things like The Agency, uh, Cape Fear wrapping up, and then kinda not a lot other than, like, Ted Lasso, um, the Will Ferrell show, The Hawk.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:19

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost5:19

You know, I talked about this with Joanna, but, like, the, the... they're, they are taking, taking July and August off out here in Hollyweird.

Chris RyanHost5:25

And I wanted to just kind of put a marker on, like, okay, what do we think? W- what's the best of what we've gotten so far and whether we think-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:32

I think it's good

Chris RyanHost5:33

... it's a good year.

Chris RyanHost5:34

Um, there may be some surprise entries in there of shows that we have not had a chance to really discuss that deeply.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:39

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:39

Oh, right, you wanna fold that into this, 'cause there's a show in particular I wanna talk about.

Chris RyanHost5:42

Well, we can do it-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:42

But it's on, it's on my list

Chris RyanHost5:43

... you, we can do it.

Chris RyanHost5:44

I, I know that you have a comprehensive notes app that c- covers your entire wor- life.

Chris RyanHost5:48

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:48

Yes

Chris RyanHost5:49

... and if you would like to structure this show on the fly, we can.

Chris RyanHost5:52

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost5:52

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:53

Bananas.

Chris RyanHost5:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:54

Ground turkey, olive oil.

Chris RyanHost5:56

Clean glasses.

Chris RyanHost5:57

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:57

S- and then some notes about The Rise of Alamo on Euphoria season three.

Chris RyanHost6:02

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:02

[laughs] Um, but yeah, I've...

Chris RyanHost6:03

We can do, we can do World Cup and, and Philly r- right now if you want.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:06

No, let's do...

Andy GreenwaldHost6:06

Okay, so let's do World Cup at the end because we do have a lot to talk about.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:10

Um, obviously I am wearing a shirt to support, uh, La Furia Roja.

Chris RyanHost6:15

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:15

España Which has been my team from the beginning

Chris RyanHost6:18

It would be fucking elite-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:19

Yeah

Chris RyanHost6:19

...

Chris RyanHost6:19

if you immediately changed [laughs] your entire vibe was like, it was like the tiki taka.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:26

It always has been.

Chris RyanHost6:27

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:28

I don't use large plates at home ever.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:31

Only pequeno.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:33

Uh-

Chris RyanHost6:33

Do you like a tinned fish?

Andy GreenwaldHost6:34

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:35

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:35

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:36

Who d- who doesn't, right?

Chris RyanHost6:38

Uh, I'm not allowed to have tinned fish in my house really.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:40

What?

Chris RyanHost6:41

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:41

My wife doesn't like the smell.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:43

So you're, so you go outside like an alley cat to your-

Chris RyanHost6:46

No, I just don't eat tinned fish at, at all.

Chris RyanHost6:47

I mean, like I, I, I don't really dabble, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:50

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:51

Come through.

Chris RyanHost6:52

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:52

We'll crack a couple tins.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:54

Like when I'm in England and they're like, "Tinnies on the train," I thought they meant like some beautiful-

Chris RyanHost7:00

Oh.

Chris RyanHost7:00

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:00

...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:00

Portuguese squid, you know?

Chris RyanHost7:01

Are you popular on trains in England?

Andy GreenwaldHost7:03

So popular.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:04

Well, breakfast is more hard-boiled egg season.

Chris RyanHost7:06

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:06

You know what I mean? Uh, okay, we'll do that at the end.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:08

But I did wanna say that we had a, a lovely brief encounter, much like the film-

Chris RyanHost7:14

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost7:14

...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:14

in Philadelphia this weekend, where we watched England's last win.

Chris RyanHost7:17

Victory, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:18

And it was, uh, it's great to see you.

Chris RyanHost7:20

Yeah, England, Norway, we w- we watched at Bad Brother, and, uh, it was awesome.

Chris RyanHost7:25

What a vibe.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:26

Can I just-- I feel like this is, this is important for the listeners to understand that like, so I, I, I flew across the country.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:33

I went straight from the airport to Bad Brother, and to walk into this wonderful public house, crowded, and I spotted you at the end of the bar, and you're chatting with Nick, who's awesome, is the owner.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:44

And, and now I know what it's like to be friends with Norm and walk into Cheers.

Chris RyanHost7:51

Well, Norm was a little bit antisocial.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:54

Okay.

Chris RyanHost7:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:54

So you are well-buttered Norm.

Chris RyanHost7:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:58

Like super popular and chatty.

Chris RyanHost7:59

Like Norm was like, "I don't wanna talk to anybody.

Chris RyanHost8:00

I just want giant mugs of beer before so I can avoid going home to my wife."

Andy GreenwaldHost8:04

You're resisting what I'm trying to say here.

Chris RyanHost8:06

I understand what you're trying to-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:07

Which is that you are the, the king of these Fairmount streets, and it was very cool to be basking in your aura, frankly-

Chris RyanHost8:14

It, it, it-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:14

... just for a short time

Chris RyanHost8:15

...

Chris RyanHost8:15

it was a great place to watch the game, and I appreciate you being there.

Chris RyanHost8:19

Um, and then I went out and saw my buddies, uh, from this band called The Shyness Clinic-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:23

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost8:24

... uh, who were very active in the late '90s in Boston when I was living there, and I, I lived with them, with some of them, uh, in Mission Hill in Boston in the late '90s.

Chris RyanHost8:33

They got their band back together for the first time-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:35

That's so cool

Chris RyanHost8:35

...

Chris RyanHost8:35

in like more than 25 years.

Chris RyanHost8:38

And, uh, it was incredible to see them.

Chris RyanHost8:40

They played at the Yuki Hall.

Chris RyanHost8:41

They played New York and Boston as well, and it was awesome to see them.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:45

Those are great guys.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:46

Do you think we should bring back our late '90s zine that we talked about making?

Chris RyanHost8:51

I think the, this is the zine.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:52

This literally is.

Chris RyanHost8:53

It is literally the zine.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:54

Can I-- So you went and you saw a great show, great friends.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:57

Um, I brought my older daughter to visit my, my aging parents, and the one thing that I was eager to tell you was I was sort of hopeful that there might be some, some new opportunities for cross-cultural dialogue.

Chris RyanHost9:10

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:11

Because my daughter had been, uh, in New York with her other grandparents, who took her to see Ragtime-

Chris RyanHost9:17

Oh, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost9:17

...

Andy GreenwaldHost9:17

the musical that is back on Broadway.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:19

And, uh-

Chris RyanHost9:20

It's Doctorow season.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:21

So I, you know, my father has strong opinions about musicals and Doctorow.

Chris RyanHost9:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:27

So I mentioned that she had seen the musical, and my father went on a, I would say, quite repetitive rant about how only in this recent iteration of the show at Lincoln Center has The New York Times given it its due.

Chris RyanHost9:42

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:43

The New York Times had it out for that show-

Chris RyanHost9:45

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:45

... a fine show.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:47

While he kind of just sort of really dug in on that point, I noticed on the bookshelf, like he does have obviously many books, but like-

Chris RyanHost9:54

Every issue of The New York Times ever.

Chris RyanHost9:56

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:56

Tab cross indexed for Frank Rich's wrong opinions.

Chris RyanHost9:59

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:00

I went to the bookshelf, and I pulled down what turned out to be a first edition of E.L. Doctorow's 1975 novel, Ragtime-

Chris RyanHost10:07

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost10:07

... that sponsored, uh, sponsor, inspired this musical.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:10

And I was like, to my daughter, I was like, "Look, you know, look, triangles of literature," or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:15

And the first thing that I realized was the problem, she took the book, she was interested.

Chris RyanHost10:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:18

She turned to the back cover, and '70s hardcovers, as you remember, the au- author photo often-

Chris RyanHost10:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:22

... is the entire back.

Chris RyanHost10:23

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:24

So it's fucking Ed Doctorow.

Chris RyanHost10:26

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost10:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:27

Jim Henson ass corduroy and beard, full bald pate, just looking like, "Yeah, I wrote this shit, and I'll do it again next year." So immediately she was like, "I don't know about this."

Chris RyanHost10:38

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:39

She flipped through it.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:40

And this is by the way, on the way over, she was like, "Maybe I'll read the book.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:43

It's so interesting, American history, all this."

Chris RyanHost10:44

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:45

I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."

Chris RyanHost10:46

'Cause it's, it's all happening.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:46

We're vibing.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:47

Maybe one-

Chris RyanHost10:48

Let's fucking watch Ken Burns' Civil War together.

Chris RyanHost10:49

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:49

Maybe one day you'll have a podcast.

Chris RyanHost10:51

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost10:51

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:51

And, uh, so she, she sort of looked through and then like put it aside, and I was like, "Huh, I guess she didn't wanna really delve into the classic." So I opened it up [laughs] and like, you, you forget.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:01

You know, we're from a different era, different generation.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:04

And the beginning of chapter two, uh, and I'm, I'm, I'm slightly misquoting here, but I believe the beginning of chapter two is, [clears throat] "Mother and father were displeased that Houdini's visit had interrupted their coitus." [laughs]

Chris RyanHost11:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:22

Like that's really what literature was.

Chris RyanHost11:25

Yeah, for sure.

Chris RyanHost11:26

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:27

I mean, like you get to like three-page descriptions of-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:30

Yeah

Chris RyanHost11:30

... a phallus by John Updike, and you-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:32

Oh, yeah

Chris RyanHost11:33

... you find out some stuff, things about yourself as a reader.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:35

What's exciting with Updike is you're not sure whose phallus it is until-

Chris RyanHost11:38

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:38

... like the third paragraph.

Chris RyanHost11:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:39

It's a lot of guys playing basketball.

Chris RyanHost11:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:41

Exactly.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:42

The steam room was quite large back then.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:44

So is he talking about others?

Chris RyanHost11:45

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:45

Is it a mirror situation? So, you know, culture moves on.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:50

It's all right.

Shifting to Culture Topics11:50 – 12:05

Chris RyanHost11:50

[laughs] I have a couple of things about culture to ask you about before we get to our list.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:55

Great.

Chris RyanHost11:55

Uh, number one, um, one of the central creatives, uh, at the foundation of this podcast-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:01

Mm.

Chris RyanHost12:02

Someone whose work we return to over and over again, Tony Gilroy-

Trailer Round-Up: Tony Gilroy’s ‘Behemoth’ & Murphy’s ‘The Shards’12:05 – 21:08

Andy GreenwaldHost12:05

Yes

Chris RyanHost12:06

... whose words, uh, s- they function as like the intro to this podcast.

Chris RyanHost12:11

When you hear Stand Up and Walk, that's obviously from, uh, The Bourne Legacy, Edward Norton in, in the crisis suite.

Chris RyanHost12:17

Um, he's got a new movie coming out.

Chris RyanHost12:20

It's his first, uh, theatrical feature since- Clayton, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost12:26

It's The Bourne Legacy.

Chris RyanHost12:27

It's The Bourne Legacy, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost12:28

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost12:28

Excuse me.

Chris RyanHost12:29

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:29

Are we going to have to replace the opening of this podcast with Pedro Pascal being like, "I've always loved the cello"?

Chris RyanHost12:34

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost12:35

Do you think that would give the same kinda-

Chris RyanHost12:38

I think we would have-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:39

... gravitas

Chris RyanHost12:39

...

Chris RyanHost12:39

even, even more f- l- uh, deeper completion rates.

Chris RyanHost12:43

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost12:43

I mean, look, this is, this is, this is The Ringer's number one Yale doctor podcast already.

Chris RyanHost12:48

[laughs] I'm sure Brian Curtis is like, "Well-"

Andy GreenwaldHost12:50

That's actually true

Chris RyanHost12:51

... yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost12:51

... he's coming for our crown.

Chris RyanHost12:52

Um, but I was wondering if you'd saw the Behemoth trailer.

Chris RyanHost12:55

This is-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:55

I did

Chris RyanHost12:55

... his film about a, um, a classical musician who plays in film...

Chris RyanHost13:01

I- in orchestras, but also primarily in-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:04

Film scores

Chris RyanHost13:05

... on film scores.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:05

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost13:05

And the, that cellist is played by Pedro Pascal, as Andy mentioned.

Chris RyanHost13:08

Um, also starring in the film, Ava Victor, uh, Will Arnett-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:13

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost13:14

... and Olivia Wilde-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:14

Yeah

Chris RyanHost13:15

... who we just saw in The Invite.

Chris RyanHost13:16

What did you make of, uh, of the teaser? 'Cause it is very much teaser.

Chris RyanHost13:19

I think there's like three lines of dialogue in it.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:21

I think that it is a...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:24

Look, you already said it.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:25

We are deeply in the tank for Uncle Tony.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:28

Uh, we're very excited about this movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:30

We've had the chance to talk to him about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:31

He is very excited and passionate about this project, um, and very bullish on how it was turning out when we, when we heard from him.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:40

And I love that Searchlight was like, "Yes, we see your vision here."

Chris RyanHost13:48

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:48

"We understand that this is not, uh, canonically part of the Reed Richards expanded universe-

Chris RyanHost13:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost13:54

... and yet we are still going to release it into theaters."

Chris RyanHost13:56

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost13:57

And they're steering into h- It, it appears that in the marketing that they are steering into what the movie is, which is a very, very kind of heady, emotional, psychological, not exactly thriller, but drama that makes music and also like a deep, deep love of movies and how movies used to get made, which is very autobiographical for Tony-

Chris RyanHost14:16

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost14:16

... whose father, Frank, is a famous writer for the stage and screen.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:19

Um, I thought, look...

Andy GreenwaldHost14:21

I thought...

Andy GreenwaldHost14:22

I, I think the marketing looks up to the task, which was-

Chris RyanHost14:24

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost14:24

... exciting to see.

Chris RyanHost14:25

It'll probably...

Chris RyanHost14:27

It, it...

Chris RyanHost14:27

I imagine Fox Searchlight, it's probably gonna be a fall, late fall, like awards season release.

Chris RyanHost14:32

I would hope.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:32

I, it's, it's scheduled for December, which gives it-

Chris RyanHost14:34

Oh, good

Andy GreenwaldHost14:34

... runway to be in a festival-

Chris RyanHost14:36

Good

Andy GreenwaldHost14:36

...

Andy GreenwaldHost14:36

I would imagine.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:37

Um, I defer to Bill Simmons' podcast guest, Sean Fennessy-

Chris RyanHost14:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost14:41

... for that bit of info.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:43

Did he drop any of that yesterday?

Chris RyanHost14:45

I feel like I insulted you a little bit.

Chris RyanHost14:46

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost14:47

Not at, not at all.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:47

You would not want me talking about The Odyssey on a podcast-

Chris RyanHost14:51

Why? 'Cause you-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:51

... listened to by millions.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:52

Because I haven't seen it [laughs] and don't really have a take.

Chris RyanHost14:56

Did you read it?

Andy GreenwaldHost14:57

In school, yeah.

Chris RyanHost14:58

Did you guys read The Odyssey in school?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:00

Oh, well, we were both at Quaker schools, but some were a little more rigorous, I guess-

Chris RyanHost15:03

Well, I was, I was a-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:04

... than others in terms of-

Chris RyanHost15:05

... a three-sport athlete, so [laughs] you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:07

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:07

... did not a lot of time for Cyclops.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:09

Did, did you pay for nerds?

Chris RyanHost15:10

The only Cyclops I acknowledged was that umpire behind me, am I right?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:13

[laughs] It's good.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:16

Did you pay s- for some nerd to do the papers for you?

Chris RyanHost15:18

[laughs] No. I'm, I was probably the nerd doing the papers.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:21

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:21

Did you...

Chris RyanHost15:21

But did you actually read The Odyssey?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:23

I believe I read The Odyssey in, in college, in college.

Chris RyanHost15:26

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:26

But, but for fun.

Chris RyanHost15:28

No way.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:28

No. [laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:29

No, no.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:30

Come on.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:30

I'm just trying to steer into the bit.

Chris RyanHost15:31

Well, there's that moment there where I was reading, like, the letters of Robert Lowell and Elizabeth Bishop-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:36

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost15:36

...

Chris RyanHost15:36

but I was like, "This is gonna be such a lucrative life for myself." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost15:39

[laughs] I can really...

Andy GreenwaldHost15:40

If you squint, you can see the path towards profitability.

Chris RyanHost15:42

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost15:42

30 years later, I'm just like, "Yeah, Dr. Holto was really bad in Domestic Disturbance." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost15:47

[laughs] Bing bong.

Chris RyanHost15:49

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:49

Good stuff

Chris RyanHost15:49

...

Chris RyanHost15:50

there was a, another, uh, trailer that I wanted to ask you about.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:53

D-

Chris RyanHost15:53

But I don't know if you've actually seen it.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:55

Wait.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:55

Last Behemoth take.

Chris RyanHost15:56

Oh, sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:56

I did have another question.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:58

So do you feel like this...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:00

Is, is this a heat check moment for Will Arnett dramatic actor? Do you, do you...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:05

When you see Will-

Chris RyanHost16:05

I mean, is it, isn't, is this thing on? Is the heat check, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost16:08

Well-

Chris RyanHost16:08

We've now, we've now entered the hot zone.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:10

Do you think?

Chris RyanHost16:11

I don't even know what that term would be.

Chris RyanHost16:12

It's like when you let a heat check shooter just keep shooting.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:16

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:17

So I, my, my, my point was that, like, he is-

Chris RyanHost16:20

I guess that's like Cam Thomas, you know, who's now out of the league.

Chris RyanHost16:23

[laughs] You're just like, "Just keep-"

Andy GreenwaldHost16:25

Well-

Chris RyanHost16:25

"... keep chucking it up there, man.

Chris RyanHost16:26

You got it." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:27

Unlike Will, unlike, uh, Will Arnett, Cam Thomas does not have a podcast to fall back on.

Chris RyanHost16:31

He easily could, though.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:32

Do you think?

Chris RyanHost16:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:33

Do you think the NBA needs more ex-player podcasts?

Chris RyanHost16:35

[laughs] Just as much as they do Will Arnett podcasts, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:38

That's the take you should have used on Bill.

Chris RyanHost16:40

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:40

I, I just wondered if like...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:41

I, I thought it was interesting that...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:42

And I think Olivia Wilde, you and I both think was incredible in The Invite.

Chris RyanHost16:46

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:46

Um, so I'm excited to see her acting in this movie, and I think it's int- He cast people, you know...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:53

It is a very, like, 2025...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:57

I don't think...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:57

Tony doesn't work like this, but in terms of studios, like, green-lighting people, I think coming into t- like being 2025, being like, "Oh, Will Arnett's probably gonna get an Oscar nomination for Is This Thing On?" Pedro Pascal is gonna be in the number one movie of the year, Fantastic Four.

Chris RyanHost17:10

Well, they both replaced other actors on this movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:12

That's true.

Chris RyanHost17:12

So, uh, Pedro Pascal replaced Oscar Isaac, who was initially attached, and then Will Arnett came in for David Harbour.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:18

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:19

So, so Moon Knight and Red Guardian were originally gonna be in it.

Chris RyanHost17:21

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:22

And we ended up with Mr.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:22

Fantastic and Job.

Chris RyanHost17:24

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:25

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:25

Win.

Chris RyanHost17:26

I have a question for you that I did not prepare you for, so I don't know if you have an answer.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:31

I'll take some coffee.

Chris RyanHost17:32

Have one sip.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:32

Mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:33

Mm.

Chris RyanHost17:35

Will, will we...

Chris RyanHost17:37

I'll, I'll use, I'll use we.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:38

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:39

Will we be breaking our Ryan Murphy fast-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:44

Oh, our embargo

Chris RyanHost17:45

... to check out The Shards, his adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis' novel?

Andy GreenwaldHost17:49

I'm so glad you asked this question.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:50

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:52

Yes, we will.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:53

Yes, we will.

Chris RyanHost17:54

Did you watch the trailer?

Andy GreenwaldHost17:55

I didn't, actually.

Chris RyanHost17:56

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:56

How is it?

Chris RyanHost17:56

I...

Chris RyanHost17:56

It does- it did not scream Bret Easton Ellis to me.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:59

Did it scream Ryan Murphy?

Chris RyanHost18:00

More than that.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:01

Interesting.

Chris RyanHost18:01

More than Bret Easton Ellis.

Chris RyanHost18:02

I think that there are, like...

Chris RyanHost18:03

The Bret Easton Ellis of it came through in the voiceover narration about what these characters like to do, which is hump and do coke.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:10

Get after it.

Chris RyanHost18:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost18:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:11

Uh-huh.

Chris RyanHost18:11

But I haven't read The Shards.

Chris RyanHost18:13

Is it any good?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:13

I didn't finish The Shards.

Chris RyanHost18:15

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:16

I was...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:16

I went back to, you know-

Chris RyanHost18:19

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost18:19

... poet- epic poetry.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:21

Um, uh, speaking-

Chris RyanHost18:23

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:23

That actually is not the- If you're putting your arms around my collegiate experience, reading experience, it really did toggle between Bret Easton Ellis and-

Chris RyanHost18:31

And Homer? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:32

[laughs] Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:33

Um, I am a big fan of Bret Easton Ellis' novels, and sometimes apologist of his novels.

Chris RyanHost18:41

Oh, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:41

And I usually have had the, the, the get up and go to finish them, even the weaker ones.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:47

I couldn't do it with The Shards.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:49

Um-

Chris RyanHost18:49

What would you say is the best?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:52

Uh, I- best-

Chris RyanHost18:55

What's your favorite?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:56

Rules of Attraction.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:57

I love Rules of Attraction.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:58

Um, and the movie's pretty good, too.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:01

But, um, it, it-

Chris RyanHost19:03

What's ...

Chris RyanHost19:03

Did he do one where it's like ...

Chris RyanHost19:06

No, that's, I ke- I sometimes get m- like mid to late McInerney and mid to l- like-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost19:11

... uh, confused.

Chris RyanHost19:12

But is th- which one's set, had one set in Japan?

Andy GreenwaldHost19:15

Oh, that's, that ...

Andy GreenwaldHost19:16

You mean, you're talking about, uh, McInerney's second novel, Ransom?

Chris RyanHost19:19

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:19

Which, in which an incredibly handsome guy named, like, Mack Jack Inerney, like, goes to Japan to, like, study the purity of karate at a dojo, [laughs] and, like, sleep with women? We used to be a proper country, okay? Are we allowed to say that?

Chris RyanHost19:35

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost19:35

That book is so insane, and it has 100% just been memory holed.

Chris RyanHost19:39

Do you think if we pitched that to Paramount Plus right now, we would get green-lit?

Andy GreenwaldHost19:43

Paramount's the studio that's interested.

Chris RyanHost19:44

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost19:45

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost19:45

I'll tell you that much.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:47

Um, so, a- all this is to say, the, my f- the, really, I think maybe the only Ryan Murphy project that I've really enjoyed was the OJ-

Chris RyanHost19:59

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost19:59

...

Andy GreenwaldHost19:59

American Crime Story OJ season.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:00

And we-

Chris RyanHost20:01

I liked the, I liked w- what I, I think I f- I think I finished, I liked the Versace one, too.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:06

Oh yeah, that was ...

Andy GreenwaldHost20:07

Okay, so but particularly I thought the OJ one, and to, and to a, a different degree, the, the Versace one.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:13

I just thought that was a perfect combination of subject matter and artist, or, or story and storyteller, because the OJ story is tawdry, and I think Ryan Murphy is a poet laureate of particular s- particular flavor of, like, California tawdry.

Chris RyanHost20:30

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:30

So I think the marriage of him with Bret Easton Ellis is a, potentially a really good one.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:34

Like, in the sense that they, I think would operate well together.

Chris RyanHost20:37

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:38

So I am interested.

Chris RyanHost20:39

Okay.

Chris RyanHost20:39

Well, th- that'll be something new and fresh for us, and we, we could use a refresh.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:42

It also has your preferred Homer, Homer Gear.

Chris RyanHost20:46

It's got Homer Gear and Kaya Gerber, am I right?

Andy GreenwaldHost20:48

Two of your favorites who just did it on their own.

Chris RyanHost20:51

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost20:52

You know what I mean? Just, like-

Chris RyanHost20:53

Look, as a nepo, I can't really blame them.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:55

[laughs] It's true.

Chris RyanHost20:56

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost20:57

It's true.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:57

[laughs] Do you guys have a meeting-

Chris RyanHost20:59

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost20:59

... that you go to?

Chris RyanHost21:00

"Hey, Kaya.

Chris RyanHost21:01

What's up?"

Andy GreenwaldHost21:01

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost21:03

"Cool.

Chris RyanHost21:03

What are you reading?"

Andy GreenwaldHost21:04

She's got a copy of your dad's, like, 1981 video guide open.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:07

[laughs]

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Best TV of 2024 (So Far) & Deep-Dive Reviews22:51 – 1:06:19

Chris RyanHost22:51

Okay, so do you wanna call this the best shows of the year, or do you wanna call it our favorite shows of the year? Here's the thing that-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:56

Right

Chris RyanHost22:57

...

Chris RyanHost22:57

I've been struggling with, Andy.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:58

Okay.

Chris RyanHost22:58

The unknowability of the totality of television, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost23:02

Hmm.

Chris RyanHost23:02

And also maybe, maybe not wanting to know everything.

Chris RyanHost23:05

And the-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:05

Hmm

Chris RyanHost23:06

... you know, 'cause it's like, it's like I think that there are gonna be some things that get left out here.

Chris RyanHost23:09

There are gonna be some things that we didn't finish.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:10

From, from this list that we're gonna-

Chris RyanHost23:12

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost23:12

... offer up?

Chris RyanHost23:13

I mean, I think you could, you could make arguments that some things should be get in, should get in there.

Chris RyanHost23:17

But I have, I have felt more challenged this year than usual by-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:22

Hmm

Chris RyanHost23:22

... staying on top of, like, everything that's relevant in television.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:24

Do you have, like, a list of, not to put you on the spot, but do you have, like, a woulda, couldas list? Like, things that you kind of hoped you'd hope to engage with, or things that you feel remiss? Because I'll tell you one thing, my conscience is clear.

Chris RyanHost23:37

Is it?

Andy GreenwaldHost23:38

Crystal.

Chris RyanHost23:38

You don't care?

Andy GreenwaldHost23:40

No, I didn't say I don't care, but, like, I, I, I, hit me if you have some because I'm curious.

Chris RyanHost23:44

I don't.

Chris RyanHost23:44

I mean, like, it's like Riot Girls, like the Sally-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:47

Oh, yeah

Chris RyanHost23:47

... yeah, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost23:48

Okay.

Chris RyanHost23:48

Like, I feel bad for not seeing that.

Chris RyanHost23:49

Like, w- we've been criminally behind on or really ignorant of Dark Winds.

Chris RyanHost23:54

Uh, I really only watched the first few episodes of Interview with a Vampire, so I'm not prepared for, like, the vampire list stat.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:01

Right.

Chris RyanHost24:01

Like, things like that where I know that there are things of people I really respect their opinion and love, and I just haven't caught up on it.

Chris RyanHost24:08

And I think probably they look at us and they're like, "Damn, those guys like Star City a lot."

Andy GreenwaldHost24:12

It's, it's true.

Chris RyanHost24:12

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:12

What about, um, maybe we'll get to it when we finally can get to it, but I do find, I do find what's happened to that show The Gold so interesting in that we really, really, really loved the first season of it.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:24

They made a second season of it, which was released in the UK last year, and I believe is now coming to our shores via PBS Masterpiece or something in the fall.

Chris RyanHost24:33

I have to tell you something.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:34

That is so specific.

Chris RyanHost24:36

Last night I had a couple glasses r- of rosé.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:39

No shame in it.

Chris RyanHost24:39

Uh, and, um-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:41

This was after you recorded the, the Bill Simmons podcast?

Chris RyanHost24:43

Yes, it was after.

Chris RyanHost24:44

Uh, and then I, I- Tucked into bed because I knew I had to come in here and chat with you.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:49

[laughs] You need, you need to rest for that.

Chris RyanHost24:51

And I am about midway through London Falling, the Patrick Radden Keefe book.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:55

Oh, yeah.

Chris RyanHost24:57

And right as I was, like, getting into bed, the fucking, the gold case comes up in the book.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:04

No.

Chris RyanHost25:05

And I was just like, "The fucking streams are crossing.

Chris RyanHost25:08

Let's go."

Andy GreenwaldHost25:08

Did you sit bolt upright in bed?

Chris RyanHost25:10

Yes.

Chris RyanHost25:11

Yes.

Chris RyanHost25:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:11

Was Phoebe alarmed?

Chris RyanHost25:13

No. [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:15

That's cool.

Chris RyanHost25:15

Yeah, I was like, "This is what it's all about, man."

Andy GreenwaldHost25:19

I'm just tr- I'm just trying to think, though, of any example of something that was relatively available, like the season, Season 1.

Chris RyanHost25:26

Uh-huh.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:27

And now it's like you have to s- it's like, "Oh, I, I used to get this product at Albertson's or Acme or whatever your local supermarket is, but now it's only available by bespoke delivery from like-

Chris RyanHost25:39

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost25:40

...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:40

the tinned fish shop, you know, outside of Sevilla."

Chris RyanHost25:42

I, honestly, it's almost, I almost wish we could go back to, like, going to, like, websites like Iraqgoals.net to watch-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:47

That was you, dude

Chris RyanHost25:48

... that was me.

Chris RyanHost25:49

That was my spot.

Chris RyanHost25:50

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:51

[laughs] Iraqgoals.net, just so you could-

Chris RyanHost25:53

'Cause that's where I used to watch, like, live-streamed soccer.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:56

That's also where you were like, "Have you ever heard of a show called Black Mirror?"

Chris RyanHost25:59

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:59

And I was like, "No.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:01

Is it in the UK?" And you were like, "Not yet."

Chris RyanHost26:03

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost26:03

It's only on this website.

Chris RyanHost26:05

No, I, it was like, basically, you had to, like, download episodes of Black Mirror off of BBC from ser- like torrents and stuff.

Chris RyanHost26:11

But-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:11

Is the statute of limitations clear on that, do you think?

Chris RyanHost26:14

They can come for me if they want, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:16

That's what I like to hear

Chris RyanHost26:16

...

Chris RyanHost26:17

I, I could think o- uh, there, I could think of a few defense attorneys who would take my case up.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:20

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:21

Well, I think this is also smart because I think we've learned in recent elections that, like, Gen Z voters, they don't really care.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:27

What they care about is how you own it.

Chris RyanHost26:29

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost26:30

You know what I mean? Like, own your problematic past, or posts-

Chris RyanHost26:33

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost26:33

... as the case may be for you.

Chris RyanHost26:34

Um, how do you wanna do our, our best of here?

Andy GreenwaldHost26:37

What did you do? What did...

Andy GreenwaldHost26:38

I mean, did you make 10?

Chris RyanHost26:39

I have a long list of 17 shows.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:40

Oh, damn.

Chris RyanHost26:41

Uh, I have a numbered list of 10.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:45

I have a numbered list of 10.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:47

I bet we have tons of overlap-

Chris RyanHost26:48

Andy GreenwaldHost26:48

... as listeners of the podcast would suggest.

Chris RyanHost26:49

Well, I was wondering, I, you know, ordinarily I would count us down.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:52

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost26:52

But I think that it might be a little bit more interesting if we sort of said we stipulate that these are the top five, which I think would probably be for both of us-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:00

Yeah

Chris RyanHost27:00

...

Chris RyanHost27:00

the same things.

Chris RyanHost27:01

Would you like to tell me your top five?

Andy GreenwaldHost27:03

Of course, I'm looking at it and I'm like, "Who wrote this list?"

Chris RyanHost27:05

I'll tell you what my f- top five is while you think about yours.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:08

What's weird about my list, 'cause we, we were discussing before we started, like, how I use the Notes app, is that my list is, like, The Pit, almonds.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:15

You know what I mean? Like, it-

Chris RyanHost27:16

Almonds is a great show.

Chris RyanHost27:16

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost27:16

Almonds are really good for you.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:18

Uh, okay, yeah, why don't you go.

Chris RyanHost27:19

And, and as far as I know, not s- sm- like, smothered in parasites.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:23

As far as you know.

Chris RyanHost27:24

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost27:25

Uh, number one, I have Widows Bay.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:27

Me too.

Chris RyanHost27:28

Number two, I have Industry.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:29

Okay.

Chris RyanHost27:30

Number three, I have Star City.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:32

That's my number three too.

Chris RyanHost27:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost27:33

Number four, I have The Pit.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:35

Wow, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:36

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost27:36

What, is that okay?

Andy GreenwaldHost27:37

Yeah, we're Spider-Man meme right now.

Chris RyanHost27:38

And number five, I have Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:41

Okay, we are exactly the same boy, except, uh, at number two instead of Industry, I have Beef.

Chris RyanHost27:48

Is Industry in your top five?

Andy GreenwaldHost27:50

Top five, no.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:50

Top 10, yes.

Chris RyanHost27:51

Interesting.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:52

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost27:52

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:53

I am who I...

Andy GreenwaldHost27:53

I'm, I'm being consistent.

Chris RyanHost27:55

Um, I, is there, is there, i- is Widows Bay recency bias? Is it, uh, the, it's the shiny new car on the lot? What, what is it-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:04

I-

Chris RyanHost28:04

... that makes it the number one show for us so far?

Andy GreenwaldHost28:06

I think that, um, it's a combination of all the things we love best about TV.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:11

I think that it's, without question, we...

Andy GreenwaldHost28:15

I, I know this is true for me, but I think it's true for us collectively in the podcast, we really get excited about something that is getting everyone excited.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:22

We get excited about the potential for surprise, even in this over-indexed media landscape.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:29

We get excited about the, the, the, it's a very pure old-fashioned kind of joy of sharing the good news that there is something-

Chris RyanHost28:40

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost28:40

... really wonderful out there that you can discover and adopt, and the week-to-week release of Widows Bay reminded me of the week-to-week release of The Pit season one.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:50

It did remind me of, like, those first beautiful few weeks five years ago or four years ago when The Pit, uh, sorry, when The Bear dropped.

Chris RyanHost28:57

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:58

Um, so that collective euphoria is definitely part of it.

Chris RyanHost29:01

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:01

But the other thing about it was no show that's been out this year so far brought me, A, as much joy, but also just made me so deeply, deeply impressed-

Chris RyanHost29:10

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost29:11

...

Andy GreenwaldHost29:11

in the sense of, like, the, the, the aesthetic a- and, uh, writerly and producorial and directorial achievement of it was just at such a high bar that it just, it just made me very happy.

Chris RyanHost29:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost29:23

I, I think that there is always gonna be an extra 10% of, of juice that comes out of-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:28

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost29:28

... being like, wow, new people, new characters, uh, actors who I'm familiar with in different roles-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:33

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost29:33

... like, getting to express themselves in different ways.

Chris RyanHost29:36

And I think the totality, the realization of the world that, that Katie Dippold and Hiro Murai, uh, brought to us was just, just astonishing.

Chris RyanHost29:45

You know, they came on the show, we talked about that.

Chris RyanHost29:46

I, I, I kinda had, like, a moment of revelation when Hiro was talking about, you know, putting...

Chris RyanHost29:53

Working with Katie to build out the visual world of that show and, y- you know, and I often w- I think get seduced by the, by camera movement or, you know, you know, expressive lighting or w- whatever I think the, are the tools of the director or the ways that a director might sign their name.

Chris RyanHost30:09

And to hear him talking about, you know, set design, production design, costume design-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:16

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost30:16

... um, building out, like, a thematic and consistent kind of way to just see this whole thing, that to me is direction, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost30:24

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost30:24

And, and Katie is obviously, like, the creator of the show and, and a, and a brilliant writer, and I think brought her sensibility of kind of the Mike Schur sitcom era-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:35

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost30:36

... and molded it with some of the best elements of, not mystery box television, but genre television.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:43

Absolutely.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:44

I couldn't agree more.

Chris RyanHost30:45

Um, for me, Industry took the biggest swings, took the most chances, um, broke the most hearts, bloodied the most noses Ruin the most bank accounts.

Chris RyanHost30:56

You know, like it was...

Chris RyanHost30:58

I think I just will just n- never, ever look at this show as anything less than among the best things-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:04

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost31:04

... that have come out this decade, and what it's done with the characters.

Chris RyanHost31:08

I think once we get done with it next year and take a step back and see, like, can you fucking believe when you go back to episode one and you see, um, Yasmin and Harper on their first days at Pure Point-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost31:21

... where we leave them, and especially where we left them in this previous season, it's an unbelievable journey.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:28

It is.

Chris RyanHost31:28

Um, and it, it still feels plausible.

Chris RyanHost31:30

It still feels real.

Chris RyanHost31:31

It still feels very, very current.

Chris RyanHost31:34

Um, and it's, it's thrilling to look at, and it's thrilling to, to watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:38

Separate and apart from, you know, I, I thought the season was incredible and had incredible highs and also had some, to my mind, lows.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:46

Um, so it's in my top 10 but not in my top five.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:49

But I think the way that I think about the show and the thing that fills me with the most excitement about the show, and this is recency bias, but I think Mickey and Conrad would appreciate this, is when you watch as much World Cup as I've been watching-

Chris RyanHost32:02

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost32:02

... for the last few weeks, as we all have hopefully, you know, especially when you get-

Chris RyanHost32:06

As you s- supported [laughs] Rojas.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:08

Well, I, I'm listening purely in the Catalan feed.

Chris RyanHost32:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost32:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost32:11

Um, the, uh, my favorite thing is when the English announcers are calling the matches, and, like, someone just immediately dribbles and shoots over the crossbar, and they're like, "You'd like to see a bit more cleverness, a bit more invention, a bit more optimism there," you know, when whoever-

Chris RyanHost32:28

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost32:28

... has the ball.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:29

And that's what I think about when I think about Industry, where I'm like, okay, they, they've, they've, they've got the ball.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:36

They never fail to try something.

Chris RyanHost32:39

No, they do not try to defend a one-nothing lead.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:41

They do not park the bus.

Chris RyanHost32:42

Nope.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:42

They do not even have a-

Chris RyanHost32:44

And they could.

Chris RyanHost32:45

You could do y- yet another-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:47

Yes

Chris RyanHost32:47

... season of, of crazy inv- investments over here at Pure Point and Eric swinging his bat on the floor, you know? Like...

Andy GreenwaldHost32:53

They do not have an emergency brake-

Chris RyanHost32:55

Andy GreenwaldHost32:55

... on the vehicle that they're driving, and what, what do we root for- [laughs]

Chris RyanHost33:00

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost33:00

... you know, when we watch things? So I think that's unique and thrilling.

Chris RyanHost33:03

Uh, we didn't get to talk about the Starcity finale together.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:05

Excuse me, beef erasure.

Chris RyanHost33:08

Well, I was just...

Chris RyanHost33:09

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:09

I will go to Starcity.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:10

I just want to say-

Chris RyanHost33:11

Sorry

Andy GreenwaldHost33:11

...

Andy GreenwaldHost33:11

I'm acting like you were a vegan.

Chris RyanHost33:12

[laughs] Yeah, go ahead, go ahead and talk about beef.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:14

No, I just, I just want to say again, like, I, my admiration for this season has only grown.

Chris RyanHost33:18

Oh, right, Industry's not in your top five.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:19

Yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost33:19

My bad.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:20

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost33:20

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:21

I just think that Lee Jung-sun, Sunny, who, who created the show, like, is using contemporary television at such an elite level, and what I mean by that is, like, the Netflix model and the Netflix largesse and the auteur showrunner model to make something, a- and, like, the celebrity star machine in terms of who he's casting and who he has access to, and, like, Finneas is doing the, the music.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:43

Uh, but to do it, to make something that is so, such a tightrope walk of, um, of farce and searing emotional social drama that's about right now and the way that we live through screens and internationally all at once, I fi- I find, I find thrilling.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:00

I just thought that show was incredible.

Chris RyanHost34:01

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost34:01

It's in my l- it's on my-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:03

It's on your long list

Chris RyanHost34:04

... top 10, yeah.

Chris RyanHost34:05

But it's not, it's not in, it's not in my top five.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:07

I'm glad we didn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:08

I'm glad though you were g- I did wanna talk Starcity 'cause we didn't get to talk about the finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:11

Your thoughts are not on the record.

Chris RyanHost34:13

They're, they're not.

Chris RyanHost34:14

Uh, I think the, my, my big takeaway was, like, the extent to which that functions as both a, a series and a season finale, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost34:23

Hmm.

Chris RyanHost34:23

Um, I think obviously there's final moments that suggest, like, you know, the story going forward, and obviously there's a timeline that, uh, For All Mankind has laid out with several of the characters from Starcity that suggests story to, to be told-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:40

Yeah

Chris RyanHost34:40

...

Chris RyanHost34:40

yet to be told.

Chris RyanHost34:41

I really, really, really, really want a second season.

Chris RyanHost34:44

I would love to see it.

Chris RyanHost34:45

Um, but, you know, if you were just gonna do, like, a, a short novella about, you know, the, the Soviet side of this story, this would be the perfect one.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:56

But don't you think there is too much...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:58

I know that you want it, so I'm not asking you to be devil's advocate here, but, like, because the show so brilliantly privileged the inner emotional life of characters versus sh- you know, the Narcos, Wikipedia, f- even Fake History model of-

Chris RyanHost35:11

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost35:11

... just showing us cogs in the larger machine-

Chris RyanHost35:13

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost35:13

... that, like, there's almost too much still left on the table to feel good about a resolu- like, I think, I, I, I want it.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:21

I know you're not arguing otherwise, but, like, I want the second season not because I need to know what happened with the Venus program-

Chris RyanHost35:27

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost35:27

...

Andy GreenwaldHost35:27

but more, like, these particular people at this moment in this fake history, uh, what happened to them?

Chris RyanHost35:32

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:32

I wanna see what happens with Anastasia and Sasha.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:35

'Cause-

Chris RyanHost35:35

I wanna see what happens with Irina.

Chris RyanHost35:36

Yeah, a- absolutely

Andy GreenwaldHost35:37

I, I also wanna say because I got to talk to the showrunners Matt and Ben, but I didn't, I don't think I get to talk too much specifically without them, and I did see someone saying, you know, the usual like, "Oh, we just, we glaze the shows that the showrunners come on to talk about," and I don't-

Chris RyanHost35:52

It's, it goes the opposite way, guys.

Chris RyanHost35:53

[laughs] We glaze the shows and then we ask the showrunner to come on.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:56

Because that makes us interested in talking to them.

Chris RyanHost35:58

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:58

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost35:58

I wanna be really clear about something.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:00

Like, I didn't, we didn't invite them on and then I watched the finale and then was like, "Oh, I guess I'll just dance around some stuff." Like, I fucking love that when it came down to the decision to do we make the single most emotionally compelling finale possible, or do we listen to the bright boys in the science consulting department and say like, "Oh, actually, Anastasia probably couldn't jump from orbit-

Chris RyanHost36:24

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost36:24

... and land in Finland to rescue her arranged-

Chris RyanHost36:26

And then drive a truck

Andy GreenwaldHost36:26

... marriage husband.

Chris RyanHost36:27

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:27

They said, "Fuck logic.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:29

We're going with our heart here."

Chris RyanHost36:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost36:30

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost36:30

Like, that's what was interesting to me.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:33

And so you could talk all you want about how the show does not have fealty to the historical record of Finlandization, where Finland sent people back who tried to come over from the Soviet Union, or you could just be like, "That's so sick," and it suits the characters.

Chris RyanHost36:47

But wouldn't also the whole maybe Finland's, like, relationship to Finlandization be different if Russia, if the Soviets had gotten to the moon f- I mean, it, can't they explain anything away by having this ripple effect coming off of their moon landing?

Andy GreenwaldHost37:00

Also, if you genuinely watch that show and you're like, "This would be better if it was closer to the historical record or to the logistics of orbital space travel," then- I don't know, touch grass nerd.

Chris RyanHost37:15

No, the other-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:15

Like, watch TV

Chris RyanHost37:16

...

Chris RyanHost37:16

I, I, I don't even know who we're talking to, but the entire act, the entire show is an act of suspension of disbelief.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:21

Yes.

Chris RyanHost37:21

It's Soviet-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:22

Yeah

Chris RyanHost37:22

... speaking in colloquial English, and at points, like, acting-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:26

Do you-

Chris RyanHost37:26

... way more like English people than probably Soviets do-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:29

Have, have you heard-

Chris RyanHost37:30

...

Chris RyanHost37:30

Russians do

Andy GreenwaldHost37:30

... we often s- small sample size this, but, like, have you, do you have any anecdotal experience in your life of people being like, "Oh, should I check that out," and then liking it despite having some skepticism?

Chris RyanHost37:40

Star City specifically?

Andy GreenwaldHost37:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost37:41

Um, yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:42

You've converted some people?

Chris RyanHost37:43

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:44

Good.

Chris RyanHost37:44

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost37:45

We, we, we, we, we converted Tracy Letts.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:48

Oh, yeah.

Chris RyanHost37:48

I mean, I don't think he was skeptical.

Chris RyanHost37:49

I just think he was like, "I'd n- I would never have thought to check this out were it not for your enthusiasm," so.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:56

How come he doesn't wanna be third chair of this podcast?

Chris RyanHost37:59

I think you-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:00

I police this side of the table too fiercely?

Chris RyanHost38:02

I think that there's room for one big, big personality on that side of the table.

Chris RyanHost38:06

I would be interested to see the vibe between you two.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:09

Uh, we get along.

Chris RyanHost38:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost38:11

No, you get along great, but I think, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:13

Yeah

Chris RyanHost38:14

...

Chris RyanHost38:14

I'm Chris Paul, man.

Chris RyanHost38:15

Everybody gets a shot.

Chris RyanHost38:16

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost38:17

Okay.

Chris RyanHost38:17

I don't need, I don't need to say what I think of-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:19

Famously beloved teammate, Chris Paul.

Chris RyanHost38:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost38:22

Just celebrated in every locker room he's ever been in.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:26

Great.

Chris RyanHost38:26

He just demands a lot.

Chris RyanHost38:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost38:28

He gets it.

Chris RyanHost38:29

The Pit, I guess I've, uh, diminished here because of its consistency.

Chris RyanHost38:33

I-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:33

Yeah

Chris RyanHost38:33

... you know, I've, I got excited about Windows Bay.

Chris RyanHost38:35

I get excited about Star City.

Chris RyanHost38:36

I think Industry just took me places that I never would've guessed it would've-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:41

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost38:41

... at the beginning of the season.

Chris RyanHost38:42

The Pit essentially iterated on its first season, did the very wise thing of not having, it didn't have a mass shooting.

Chris RyanHost38:50

It didn't have, like, a mass casualty event.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:51

Right.

Chris RyanHost38:51

It was just like this was a very hard day.

Chris RyanHost38:54

This is about doctors needing their own medicine.

Chris RyanHost38:57

You know, I know, I thought it was, I thought it was remarkable, and especially as it, the last few episodes I thought were extraordinary.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:04

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost39:04

Um, I, it, it's, it's no criticism that it's at fourth here.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:08

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost39:08

It's just where it wound up.

Chris RyanHost39:09

Was it at fourth for you?

Andy GreenwaldHost39:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:10

We had the same top five except for one.

Chris RyanHost39:11

And Night of the Seven Kingdoms, I, I would love to know if there was any influence on this season of House of the Dragon by-

Andy GreenwaldHost39:17

Yeah

Chris RyanHost39:17

...

Chris RyanHost39:17

Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

Chris RyanHost39:18

I'm sure that's not how TV production works, where I'm sure they were basically done House of the Dragon by the time Night of the Seven Kingdoms was airing.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:26

Uh, I think they overlap.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:27

They don't film in the same place.

Chris RyanHost39:29

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:29

Um, House of the Dragon films at, uh, my beloved Leavesden Studios [laughs] near scenic Watford, England.

Chris RyanHost39:35

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:35

And, um, I think, I think Night of the Seven Kingdoms was back in Belfast, if I'm not mistaken.

Chris RyanHost39:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:41

Um, I actually think, and I, I haven't rewatched since it aired earlier in the year, but I feel like Night of the Seven Kingdoms, despite getting Emmy attention and being nominated for Best Drama Series in its first season, is almost underrated, and I feel even more impressed by its achievement in the light of this season of House of the Dragon.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:00

I'm not trying to, like, rage bait or pit them against each other.

Chris RyanHost40:04

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:04

But the-

Chris RyanHost40:04

It's just you and me, man.

Chris RyanHost40:05

You don't-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:05

But-

Chris RyanHost40:06

Don't, don't worry about them

Andy GreenwaldHost40:06

...

Andy GreenwaldHost40:06

but now Tracy's listening, and he's, like, leaning in.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:09

You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost40:09

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost40:10

Um, and I want to, I want him to respect this take.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:13

Um, we didn't really talk about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:16

It's totally fine.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:17

Um, I don't have a lot to add to the conversation about this week's House of the Dragon episode, but I was noticing the way that it feels in ways good and frankly bad that the show has so clearly ventured out beyond, um, the pier, so to speak.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:33

Like, whether it's the lack of George Martin, or whether it's the, uh, like a, a more-

Chris RyanHost40:37

You mean off the text?

Andy GreenwaldHost40:38

Not just the text-

Chris RyanHost40:39

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost40:39

...

Andy GreenwaldHost40:39

but just, like, the s-

Chris RyanHost40:40

'Cause it's, it's still relatively, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:41

The, the-

Chris RyanHost40:41

... close to it, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost40:42

...

Andy GreenwaldHost40:42

I, I just have no...

Andy GreenwaldHost40:43

Like, taking the, making the aesthetic decision to do the Rhaenyra, uh, POV episode-

Chris RyanHost40:48

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost40:49

... was a bold swing that I didn't know was in its playbook, and that was exciting to see, and we were joking too, like, casting, um, uh, casting what's his name? The American guy, uh, Dan.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:59

I keep wanting to say, like, Dan Fogert- Fogelberg as, um-

Chris RyanHost41:03

Fogler

Andy GreenwaldHost41:03

...

Andy GreenwaldHost41:03

Fogler.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:04

Sorry, yes, as Torrhen, uh, the new Master of Coin.

Chris RyanHost41:07

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:07

Like, these are some, these feel like aesthetic choices that are outside of what I would have expected, or-

Chris RyanHost41:12

It certainly breaks from the orthodoxy of the first two seasons

Andy GreenwaldHost41:15

... or, or kind of the template that was set by Game of Thrones.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:18

And remember, one of the weirdest things about House of the Dragon is that, like, it has the same theme music.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:22

It is so intent on telling you, "It's Sunday.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:25

Remember what it feels like? Let's get back to that." This week's episode was fucking interminable, but it also had, like-

Chris RyanHost41:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost41:31

...

Andy GreenwaldHost41:31

these moments...

Andy GreenwaldHost41:32

Jesus Christ.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:33

But, like, I turned it on after England, and it was just, like, watching those last 10 minutes again for two hours.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:39

There's the scenes inside of Tumbleton where it's just like, oh, Martha Stewart's Westeros, where the color palette is totally different, and I have wanted things like that on the show.

Chris RyanHost41:49

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:49

But it feels so, like...

Andy GreenwaldHost41:51

The, I understand why often production design on Westerosi shows have been conservative because it is hard to say, "We've always done it this way, but what if we did this?" It is challenging.

Chris RyanHost42:02

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:03

Knight of the Seven Kingdoms felt effortless in the way it was like, "No, no, it's gonna be this now." And I'm not saying it was as bold of a turn as some of, even some of the decisions scene to scene in House of the Dragon this year, but it, it launched itself and asserted itself as its own thing so quickly that I'm very impressed by it.

Chris RyanHost42:22

I greatly prefer this version of this story where we're getting outside of the, essentially the two family castles.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:32

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost42:32

Like, I, I, I was actually curious whether or not there's a term or if there is an exercise when you're in a writer's room where you're kind of diagramming how these are the two main characters, and then from these two characters, these two characters will come, and then from these two.

Chris RyanHost42:45

Not, not necessarily like they begat them, but how, you know, now that we've got, like, Ormund and-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:52

Hmm

Chris RyanHost42:52

... you know, Aegon and Larys are over here, and we've got, like, all these different, um, tones-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:58

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost42:58

... and all these different, like, kind of aims that these characters may have, what they want out of all of this.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:03

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost43:04

And, you know, the, that has come at the expense maybe of the Velaryon family tree, where I think Corlys has been sidelined since his, you know, "If you're not gonna mint my kids, then you can go fuck yourself," like we haven't had as much of him.

Chris RyanHost43:17

But, uh, I, I really enjoy, I, I am enjoying this version of the show much more than the first two seasons

Andy GreenwaldHost43:23

seasonsYeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:26

Uh, w- without question.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:26

I just think that, like, everything about the show, including my own reactions to it, feel very reactive and still, like, in the light of what we are used to or what we've come to expect or what we've enjoyed before-

Chris RyanHost43:37

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost43:38

... from this type of storytelling or this specific IP world, where Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was like, "Hey, man, it's just a tournament.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:45

Let's chill out."

Chris RyanHost43:45

Yeah, right.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:46

Let's just...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:47

And, like, what...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:47

I, I don't remember the last time...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:50

It, it had been since Game of Thrones, honestly, where I was like, "I just fucking love this new character.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:54

I'm psyched.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:55

This is awesome.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:56

Let's just hang out here."

Chris RyanHost43:56

Which was the new character that you loved?

Andy GreenwaldHost43:58

Uh, many.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:59

Specifically I was thinking about, um...

Andy GreenwaldHost44:00

What's his name? I, I am not gonna remember all these people's names.

Chris RyanHost44:03

The Baratheon?

Andy GreenwaldHost44:04

The one-

Chris RyanHost44:04

The guy with the, the, the horn

Andy GreenwaldHost44:05

...

Andy GreenwaldHost44:05

Daniel Langs.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:06

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost44:06

Yeah, Daniel Langs.

Chris RyanHost44:07

I bet that you and I are gonna have some variance in our bottom five.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:11

Great.

Chris RyanHost44:12

I wanna hear yours.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:14

Okay.

Chris RyanHost44:14

If you've got them in order.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:15

You want me to go 6 to 10 or 10 to 6?

Chris RyanHost44:17

6 to 10.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:18

6 to 10.

Chris RyanHost44:18

Let's, let's keep going in the same direction.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:20

NBC's Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins.

Chris RyanHost44:22

Great pick.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:23

Seven, uh, HBO's Industry.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:26

Eight, the show that I'm most excited to talk to you about today, HBO's The Dark Wizard.

Chris RyanHost44:30

I love you.

Chris RyanHost44:31

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:31

I do the work.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:33

Slowly.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:34

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost44:34

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost44:35

But I do the work.

Chris RyanHost44:36

I never expected you to watch it.

Chris RyanHost44:37

I was just like, "This is great.

Chris RyanHost44:39

Check it out if you, if you miss Hunter Footwave."

Andy GreenwaldHost44:41

But you're also like, "Check it out if you like things that are great."

Chris RyanHost44:43

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:44

And I did.

Chris RyanHost44:44

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost44:45

I like things that are great.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:46

Uh, number nine, the Disney Corporation's Wonder Man.

Chris RyanHost44:50

I have that on my long list.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:51

And then I put The Agency at number 10 only because I haven't finished it, and it, it could be a, it could be a grower-

Chris RyanHost44:58

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost44:59

... still.

Chris RyanHost44:59

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:59

But The Agency season two.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:00

But, um, it just in terms of, like, my engagement with it, it deserved a spot.

Chris RyanHost45:04

Uh, my number six is The Bear.

Chris RyanHost45:07

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:08

Look at you.

Chris RyanHost45:09

Yeah, The Bear, I think tho- those last two episodes make the-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:12

Chris RyanHost45:12

... beginning of the season a little bit more cohesive to me.

Chris RyanHost45:16

I think if you wa- look at it in totality with Gary-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:19

Chris RyanHost45:20

...

Chris RyanHost45:20

the, the standalone episode with Bernthal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach, between Gary, between moments in the first few episodes of the final season, and then specifically, uh, episodes s- seven and eight-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:30

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost45:31

... um, I just think it's an...

Chris RyanHost45:33

It was a wonderful send-off.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:35

Mm.

Chris RyanHost45:35

Um, and I really, I think perhaps there's some sentiment, but I also really admire how the visual style of the show evolved, um, the stillness in some ways that it, it achieves, uh, in the last season compared to the frenetic nature of the first season.

Chris RyanHost45:50

And I thought that there were some really beautiful performances, specifically from Bachrach in the, in this final season.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:55

He's amazing.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:56

I, I do think you're right to highlight something that I think is probably gonna be, um, overlooked a little bit, which is for all of the, I think, fair criticism The Bear has gotten in recent seasons of, like, story, narrative, character paralysis, I think it's important to differentiate that from the observation that the creative team did clearly look at this as an opportunity to do something different, uh, in terms of the filmmaking.

Chris RyanHost46:22

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:23

Like, we are going to do a season that is going to be this, and it will feel distinct in the terms of, like, how much time passes, um, the music choices, the camera movement, and all that.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:32

That you can't just say it was more of the same in that regard.

Chris RyanHost46:35

I also wonder whether time will be a little bit kinder to this series if you binge it, if you-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:40

Yeah

Chris RyanHost46:41

... rediscover it, if you rewatch it.

Chris RyanHost46:43

I don't know in our landscape now if that's something people are doing with shows of recent vintage like this.

Chris RyanHost46:49

But I do think that looked at as a whole, as a total meal-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:53

Chris RyanHost46:53

... it's gonna be a better experience than, "Is it...

Chris RyanHost46:56

Are they gonna get out of this kitchen, or is, like, he gonna quit? Is what...

Chris RyanHost46:58

Like, what's gonna happen next?"

Andy GreenwaldHost46:59

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost46:59

Like, you know, I think it...

Chris RyanHost47:00

Now that I've, I've seen the entire thing, I, I, I appreciate it more.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:03

I, I think that's really interesting because the show is about time.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:07

I mean, two seasons were just about a ticking clock.

Chris RyanHost47:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:10

And when it is now...

Andy GreenwaldHost47:11

It has now been set free-

Chris RyanHost47:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost47:13

... from the bounds of the mad titan, Cronus, and, uh, just wanted to bring it back to The Odyssey if I could.

Chris RyanHost47:20

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost47:21

And, uh, it may have a different...

Andy GreenwaldHost47:23

It may, it may be a different experience.

Chris RyanHost47:24

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost47:25

Uh, we can talk about Dark Wizard in a second.

Chris RyanHost47:28

It's my number seven.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:29

Nice.

Chris RyanHost47:30

Um, number eight, Shorty as usual, and number nine, The Agency.

Chris RyanHost47:34

Almost done that.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:35

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost47:35

Been, been, been ticking away.

Chris RyanHost47:37

Uh, thought this season has been excellent.

Chris RyanHost47:39

Uh, pacing-wise, m- much improved over the first one.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:42

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost47:42

I think also, like, you know, as is the case with the Bureau, you see these supporting characters become...

Chris RyanHost47:48

They could have their own show.

Chris RyanHost47:49

They could have...

Chris RyanHost47:50

They have...

Chris RyanHost47:50

Th- there are as novel's worth of interesting-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:53

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost47:53

... material, uh, uh, for, for these various supporting characters.

Chris RyanHost47:56

So The Bear, Dark Wizard, uh, Shorty, The Agency, and my last one is Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen.

Chris RyanHost48:02

The-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:02

I wondered if that was gonna make it onto your list

Chris RyanHost48:03

... yeah, Netflix series about, um, a, a cursed woman.

Chris RyanHost48:08

And I, I thought that was great.

Chris RyanHost48:09

And a really interesting kind of partner show to Widow's Bay in that it was trying to play with horror over a, like, a long form story, which is one of the most difficult things to do.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:19

Yeah, I couldn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:20

I watched the first episode and admired it and couldn't, couldn't do it because of just the, the ratio.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:27

I thought it was very cool-

Chris RyanHost48:28

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost48:28

... and it was very visually compelling.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:31

And as far as my, my limited between my fingers peeking out knowledge of horror, I was like, "Oh, she's nailing it."

Chris RyanHost48:37

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:38

But it wasn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:39

It just wasn't leavened with the comedy.

Chris RyanHost48:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:41

You know, nor should it have been.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:42

It's its own show.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:42

But I...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:43

That was a bridge too far for me.

Chris RyanHost48:44

There's a lot of bleeding out of their eyes, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost48:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost48:46

Um, let's talk a little bit about...

Chris RyanHost48:49

in depth about Dark Wizard.

Chris RyanHost48:51

Um, what prompted you to revisit this?

Andy GreenwaldHost48:53

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost48:54

Did you watch the first episode when-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:55

No, I never...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:56

I, I-

Chris RyanHost48:56

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:57

I-

Chris RyanHost48:57

What prompted you to turn it on?

Andy GreenwaldHost48:58

Well-

Chris RyanHost48:58

Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:59

... a cou- a couple things.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:00

Um, you...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:02

I mean, sincerely, you were like, [laughs] "It's really good."

Chris RyanHost49:05

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:06

Um, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:08

My reasons for not engaging with it were really stupid and pithy, which was I was like, "I think I've given enough of my time to wizards named Potter on the HBO network recently," which was a killer text to send once.

Chris RyanHost49:23

Did you send it to me? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost49:25

You were among the recipients.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:27

You know, I, I sometimes, sometimes recycle material.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:30

Um- I had no, I had no reason not to do it other than just, like, time-

Chris RyanHost49:35

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost49:35

... and because it didn't feel the urgency of scripted or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:38

And then, yeah, when I was traveling I was like, there are four episodes of this, and it's probably ...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:43

You know, you know there's a certain way that you can engage with a documentary that is, like, perfect for airplanes.

Chris RyanHost49:47

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:48

So it was-

Chris RyanHost49:49

Where you get off the plane and you're like, "I am an expert in this subject now." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost49:52

I ...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:52

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:52

I can't wait to tell everyone.

Chris RyanHost49:54

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:54

Also, it's good.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:55

It, it was kind of undercut by the fact that I did have working Wi-Fi on this airplane, but there is, like, a, a really interesting, like, Faraday cage of, of the brain that happens when you start watching a documentary in which you are blessedly ignorant of everything.

Chris RyanHost50:10

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:11

In which you're like, now I can't use Google anymore because what if I accidentally find out what happens?

Chris RyanHost50:17

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:17

So, uh, before we ...

Andy GreenwaldHost50:19

The, like ...

Andy GreenwaldHost50:19

Can we do, like, a few minutes of table setting? 'Cause I wanna just try to get people to watch it who haven't.

Chris RyanHost50:24

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:24

And then we could do some spoilers.

Chris RyanHost50:25

I'll just say this is, this is a four-part, uh, docuseries directed by Peter Mortimer and Nick Rosen, who have made, um, several films and I think some other series about alpinists.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:35

Mm.

Chris RyanHost50:35

You know, about, about mountain climbers.

Chris RyanHost50:37

Uh, they made a film called The Alpinist that you can watch on Peacock, which is extraordinary.

Chris RyanHost50:41

And I think one thing that's sort of, um, this ...

Chris RyanHost50:46

And Th- The Dark Wizard follows, uh, a, a man named Dean Potter, who is an infamous climber from the late '90s and early 2000s.

Chris RyanHost50:54

Um, kind of a contemporary of Alex Honnold.

Chris RyanHost50:57

And Potter sort of made Yosemite and the valleys below the mountains and El Cap and, and, and all the famous mountains in Yosemite his playground, and was kind of a punk rock icon of mount climbing as it entered the mainstream consciousness through, uh, the proliferation of, like, video cameras and then more and more high-end cameras-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost51:21

... that could capture that kinda action.

Chris RyanHost51:24

And he was also the, basically the face of Patagonia as it became more than just, like, the stuff you wore when you were camping.

Chris RyanHost51:31

It was, like, a lifestyle brand as well.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:33

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost51:33

And I think was, you know, featured in several, um, photographic campaigns for Patagonia.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:40

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost51:40

Um, he is defined by his boundary pushing.

Chris RyanHost51:42

You know, he was one of the people who was like, "Well, I can go climbing with a parachute so that if I fall-"

Andy GreenwaldHost51:51

He, he invented this.

Chris RyanHost51:52

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:52

So-

Chris RyanHost51:52

Like, he brought parachutes with him while he would ...

Chris RyanHost51:55

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:55

S- 'Cause he, 'cause he's a, such a wild thrill-seeker who referred to, I didn't realize this was a phrase, the death consequence as a potential outcome for his activities and what that does to you and to your mind.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:08

He was just chasing highs, and he himself was, like, very clearly and admittedly bipolar and, and, and had mental health struggles and was always pushing.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:19

And so went from free soloing at an absurd, unprecedented degree to BASE jumping-

Chris RyanHost52:24

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost52:24

... to then realizing he could combine them into something he quite cleverly and clearly, you know, healthfully called free basing.

Chris RyanHost52:31

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:31

Uh, where you could free solo places and if you fell, you could just pull your chute.

Chris RyanHost52:35

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:35

And then started doing, um, wingsuit flying.

Chris RyanHost52:38

Which is essentially, like, human flight.

Chris RyanHost52:40

You know, it's jumping off a mountain to fly.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:42

In, in a, in a suit.

Chris RyanHost52:43

So, uh, I would say just for people who haven't checked this out, and we'll, we could talk a little bit more-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:47

Yeah

Chris RyanHost52:47

...

Chris RyanHost52:47

in depth about it in a second with a spoiler warning.

Chris RyanHost52:51

The thing that blows my mind almost as much as what Potter does is the fact that they were able to capture this stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:59

All of it.

Chris RyanHost53:00

Because I imagine as this show goes on, you know, w- I don't know if drone technology is, I- is per-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:07

It doesn't seem like it

Chris RyanHost53:08

... become widespread, but you basically have Potter, like, r- was compulsively documenting everything in his life.

Chris RyanHost53:17

If he didn't have a camera crew with him, he had his buddy filming him.

Chris RyanHost53:21

And-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:21

Sweet Winky.

Chris RyanHost53:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost53:22

And so those guys would basically have, um, rope climbs next to him that would go up, or maybe they would get taken to the top of a, of a peak-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:30

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost53:30

... and then they would rappel down to film Potter coming up.

Chris RyanHost53:33

But the footage in this show is fucking extraordinary, and it's a similar sensation you get from when you're watching 100 Foot Wave, although a lot of that I think is done with drones, where you're like, how the hell-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:43

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost53:43

... am I getting, like, this swooping shot of this guy going down-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:48

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost53:48

... a titular 100-foot wave? The same thing is going on in Dark Wizard where you're just like, I just can't believe there was a camera there when this guy fell off a mountain and threw a parachute up in the air.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:57

It, it-

Chris RyanHost53:57

I mean, it's unreal to watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:59

And the, the camera, the, the omnipresence of the cameras and the documentation and the, and the show does a really beautiful job with his, with Potter's journals and drawings and animating them, and just the, the outrageous, like, 24/7 seemingly access to his mind as well as his actions also speaks to one of the really compelling tensions of the show, which is he believed what he was doing was art.

Chris RyanHost54:22

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:22

He believed what he was doing was spirituality.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:24

And he had, like many people who believe those things in the vice grip of contemporary life, had a very challenging relationship to, uh, publicity, to profit, to partnerships and participation, and that it ...

Andy GreenwaldHost54:41

So the fact that he's just like, "I am a private person communing with nature, but I must be, all of this must be documented"-

Chris RyanHost54:47

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost54:47

... is the central tension.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:49

And some of the most compelling parts of the series on an emotional level are the central tension between Potter being, like, deeply Gen X and then everyone else younger than him.

Chris RyanHost55:01

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:02

And you watch him trying to navigate this just, like, middle finger, anti-authoritarianism, spiritual lifestyle, and then Alex Honnold shows up on the scene, and he's r- roughly a decade younger.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:15

I think he's like eight or nine years younger, and he's like an IT guy.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:18

He has no fear.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:19

He has no qualms about turning free climbing, free soloing El Cap into a Squarespace ad.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:24

And the, the relationship that each of them have to each other but also to their work and also to their own minds is so fascinating.

Chris RyanHost55:32

Well, it's just, it's unbelievable.

Chris RyanHost55:34

It's the d- it's, it's ...

Chris RyanHost55:35

And it can be applied to so many different That relationship and their different approaches to mountain climbing could be applied to so many different-

Andy GreenwaldHost55:42

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost55:42

... arenas of life where Potter, um, labors over and stresses over and frets over, like, "How am I gonna climb this? I'm, I could die."

Andy GreenwaldHost55:53

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost55:53

Like, "It's not the right time yet." And it's not, you know, he's legitimately-

Andy GreenwaldHost55:56

I wasn't, I wasn't feeling it

Chris RyanHost55:56

... he's legitimately scared, but I think he's also participating in a narrative about, like, a guy facing a great challenge, and Honnold's like, "I fucking climbed it.

Chris RyanHost56:04

I climbed it.

Chris RyanHost56:05

I looked like, I looked at it, and then I just climbed up it."

Andy GreenwaldHost56:07

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost56:07

And [laughs] you know, like, and [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost56:08

And he had a checklist

Chris RyanHost56:09

... and it, and it not only is it, like, drives Potter nuts because this guy keeps beating him-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:14

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost56:14

... to things that he wanted to do, but he's almost challenging the very idea that one individual could claim ownership over a mountain or over a climb.

Chris RyanHost56:22

Like, Honnold's like, "If you wanna-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:24

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost56:24

... beat me, beat me.

Chris RyanHost56:25

Otherwise, like, get out of my way." And it's not that...

Chris RyanHost56:27

You know, I, I, I love all of that.

Chris RyanHost56:29

I love the, um, social subculture of Yosemite and guys living in the valley-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:34

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost56:34

... and guys hanging out there year-round and getting to know the rangers and what they eat and, like, the stews that they eat and kind of like the, not dumpster diving, but the way they'll be like, "Oh, you can go over here to pick up good Wi-Fi-"

Andy GreenwaldHost56:45

Yeah

Chris RyanHost56:45

... "or you can eat, you know, the, you, you, sometimes, like, people leave food behind here, and you can pick it up," and stuff like that.

Chris RyanHost56:52

All fascinating.

Chris RyanHost56:54

Uh, I think obviously to talk any more in depth about the show-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:57

One thing before spoilers.

Chris RyanHost56:58

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:00

Invariably, if we are watching either in person or more often in our own respective, um, Faraday cages sporting events, I some- I will ask or text, I, obviously none of us play professional football, but if we did, like, what position do you think you would enjoy doing? Or I would, I'll, I'll ask you about, like, we're watching World Cup, and I'm like, "Better to be good at basketball or be good at soccer for one day?"

Chris RyanHost57:22

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:22

You know, and either way, it's part of, like, the fantasy of, like, these people are the best at doing something that looks fun or must feel great to be able to do.

Chris RyanHost57:30

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:30

And that is part of the thrill.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:32

I will say that free soloing has jumped above 100-foot wave surfing as the thing I have no interest in ever doing [laughs] and feel no spiritual connection to whatsoever.

Chris RyanHost57:42

I, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:42

It is fucking terrifying.

Chris RyanHost57:44

I think it's incredibly healthy in life to have things you like to look at.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:48

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost57:49

Not everything-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:49

Right

Chris RyanHost57:50

... needs to be a participation thing, and I don't have any interest in doing either of those things.

Chris RyanHost57:56

But I realize that, like, I really love watching people, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:02

Yeah

Chris RyanHost58:02

... accomplish great feats in nature.

Chris RyanHost58:04

I mean, it m- it-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:05

True

Chris RyanHost58:05

... it's just, it, it's a great use of the endless libraries of content to have more and more exciting nature documentaries.

Chris RyanHost58:14

There is, um ...

Chris RyanHost58:15

Okay, so here we'll put a little pin in this.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:18

Yeah, we'll do a little spoiler?

Chris RyanHost58:19

And we'll, uh, spoil a bit of Dark Wizard.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost58:23

It's been out for a while, uh, so maybe people have gotten a chance to see it.

Chris RyanHost58:26

And I think also this, in general, um, if you Google Dean Potter, you'll see that he passed away in 2015.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost58:33

He died while doing one of these free base jumps, um-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:36

The way he was doing the flying.

Chris RyanHost58:38

The flying.

Chris RyanHost58:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost58:39

Uh, in Yosemite.

Chris RyanHost58:43

Ethically and journalistically-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:45

Hmm

Chris RyanHost58:46

...

Chris RyanHost58:46

they make a decision in this sh- in this series similar to the one, I can't remember the name of it, but there was a free diving documentary-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:53

Hmm

Chris RyanHost58:54

... about a woman who, you know, would do these free dives v- very deep un- into the ocean and come back up.

Chris RyanHost59:01

And there's all these, like, you know, depressurization and, you know, making sure you can make it-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:05

Yeah

Chris RyanHost59:05

... to here and here and how long can you hold your breath.

Chris RyanHost59:08

And in a similar way, the sh- the, the documentary keeps up the appearance that this person may be alive.

Chris RyanHost59:16

Like, the way that they frame the interviews, uh, like, it's not a shock, but if you don't Google, you'll be like, "Ah, this person died."

Andy GreenwaldHost59:25

I mean, I, I would say I, it was pr- it's pretty clear to me that he is not participating in the documentary and that the access to-

Chris RyanHost59:33

In the present tense.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:34

Well, and the fact that they have unfettered access to his private journals and things-

Chris RyanHost59:37

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost59:37

... suggests.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:38

But so I was in that fugue state because I, I did the first two on one flight, and then a few days later I did the other ones.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:44

And so I, I was stuck.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:46

I knew that he was-

Chris RyanHost59:47

I wasn't sure

Andy GreenwaldHost59:47

... dead.

Chris RyanHost59:47

I can't remember if you texted me or were like, "Is Dean Potter still out there?"

Andy GreenwaldHost59:51

I did not.

Chris RyanHost59:51

No? Okay.

Chris RyanHost59:52

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost59:52

I did not.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:54

Does sound like me, but I didn't in this case.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:56

But holding that knowledge and then wondering, you know, simultaneously what, which of these things is going to kill him, because it could be almost anything that he's doing in any of the episodes, and then how is it in the fabric of the documentary?

Chris RyanHost1:00:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:10

Because the documentary is not, like, a, um ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:13

It's not like a, you know, the, the, the cup game when you're getting scammed on the street where it's like they're just trying to reveal something to you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:19

It's actually, like, t- trying to tell you a story about risk and-

Chris RyanHost1:00:24

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:24

... adventure and mental health and friendsh- male friendship, honestly.

Chris RyanHost1:00:27

I think that there's, like, an obvious n...

Chris RyanHost1:00:30

It, they made a narrative decision not to say that he dies-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:32

They did

Chris RyanHost1:00:32

...

Chris RyanHost1:00:32

in the first episode.

Chris RyanHost1:00:33

And they, they do it to create a sense of tension-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:36

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:00:36

... rather than a sense of tragedy.

Chris RyanHost1:00:38

It is obviously tragic what happened.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:39

Well said.

Chris RyanHost1:00:39

But you can say in the beginning that this guy was, uh, a divisive and beloved figure-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:45

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:00:46

...

Chris RyanHost1:00:46

in this community and was constantly pushing, and what this show is about or what this story is about is about people who t- willingly take their life in their hands and what happens when one thing goes wrong-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:57

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:00:57

... and what hap- whether or not, whether or not, like, that's an acceptable sort of consequence of-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:02

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:01:02

... of a, of a hobby essentially.

Chris RyanHost1:01:04

You know? Like, it can be a lifestyle.

Chris RyanHost1:01:06

It can be something that brings you closer to kind of an epiphany or, you know, state of spiritual nirvana, but it still is a hobby.

Chris RyanHost1:01:13

You know, you know, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:14

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:01:15

... and you can die doing it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:17

And one of the most touching and affecting and surprising turns in the documentary is that although I don't think it's surprising for people who are paying t- attention to this more as a story of mental health or addiction-

Chris RyanHost1:01:28

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:28

... which I think tends to follow a similar pattern, which is that in the fourth episode, the way it's ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:33

But also essentially in the f- last act of his life, he had a moment of calm.

Chris RyanHost1:01:39

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:39

And he had a moment of- A connection with a partner, this woman Jen, who he had worked with before who he, at Patagonia, whom he reconnected with.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:47

Her children and the role that he played in, in her, in their life.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:50

And then out of nowhere he gets a fucking dog who becomes his best friend and starts rappelling around the world and-

Chris RyanHost1:01:55

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:55

... base jumping with him.

Chris RyanHost1:01:56

A lot of, a lot of, uh, comments about whether or not that was a humane thing to do with the dog.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:01

Dog seemed psyched, honestly.

Chris RyanHost1:02:02

Dog did seem psyched, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:03

Dog seemed psyched.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:04

Um, only to be pulled back in by the old demons, among them our ego.

Chris RyanHost1:02:11

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:11

About being able to do more than other people or to be challenged by younger people.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:16

And it's really affecting the way that story is told.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:18

I think that, like, they make such smart and really compelling editorial decisions which is lingering on not just the ways that Dean Potter's psychology hurt the people around him, which is a familiar story.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:31

Again, anytime you watch greatness, there's always the people who get left behind.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:35

But really underscoring how the people in his wake loved him, like, profoundly in ways that could never be matched.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:42

And so there's a lot of, like, m- there's a lot of middle-aged men crying-

Chris RyanHost1:02:45

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:46

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:46

in the last part.

Chris RyanHost1:02:46

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:46

Which, you know, who among us? [laughs] I, I thought that was really, really affecting in that there's an incredible moment in the last one where one of the guys who got really hurt by Dean and broke off with him years before breaks down and basically is like, calls out to someone behind the camera, and we realize that someone working on the show is one of the other guys.

Chris RyanHost1:03:05

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:05

And he's like, "Can you say something?" He's like, "You're being a pansy."

Chris RyanHost1:03:08

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:08

And then he comes over and they hug each other, and I'm like, what was left in this guy's wake is s- present.

Chris RyanHost1:03:14

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:14

Um, the other thing I really wanted to say was the last 20 minutes of the third episode maybe, it, it, we don't do this, but if we were doing, like, scenes of the year or sequences of the year.

Chris RyanHost1:03:28

Is that China?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:28

China.

Chris RyanHost1:03:28

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:29

It is so fucking insane, and so powerful and depressing and intense.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:35

It, basically what happens is at a very low point in his life and career, before he kind of briefly resurfaced as a family guy-

Chris RyanHost1:03:44

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:45

... um, and has just, he, dating someone who took her life on his property, and at a very, very low point, isolated from everyone except good old Winky, Dean is offered the chance to go basically put on a show on live television.

Chris RyanHost1:04:00

For Chinese state television, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:00

Chinese state television, where they pay him $200,000 to do a big base jump, and then do a, like a rope line.

Chris RyanHost1:04:09

A wire walk, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:09

A wire walk.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:10

And he's there, and the conditions aren't, it's not just that the conditions aren't ideal or are unfamiliar, it's that it's the opposite of everything he's been doing up to this point, where he's surrounded and crowded and there's voices and ev- everything that would be distracting to anyone, but particularly to someone who's, like, a soul surfer of this shit.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:28

And the, the, like there's all this footage of, like, him trying to do this walk.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:33

First yelling at everyone for putting up a net.

Chris RyanHost1:04:35

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:35

Saying, "I don't, I'm not a circus performer.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:36

I don't do this shit with a net.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:38

Take the net away so that there is a death consequence."

Chris RyanHost1:04:40

Yeah, he's walking above a canyon, yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:04:42

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:42

And the day before he's practicing with a tether, which isn't super cool either, because basically he, w- he's walking and then will fall and has to catch and, like, spins around it.

Chris RyanHost1:04:53

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:54

And they're wa- the cameras are watching him do this and fail and fail and fail, and he doesn't make it very far at all.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:59

And the narration is telling us that, like, even if he made it to the middle, it would be harder than anything he'd ever done 'cause it's wobbling 'cause it's farther.

Chris RyanHost1:05:06

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:07

And then that night he yells at Winky and tells him he's worthless for not bringing, and I, this is a direct quote, "butt weed."

Chris RyanHost1:05:14

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:14

Which is apparently the weed you bring to China by storing it within your body cavity.

Chris RyanHost1:05:17

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:05:18

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:18

Winky did not do that.

Chris RyanHost1:05:20

Winky is his photographer and kind of, like, side, you know, his guy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:22

He's kind of, like, older, like, but who-

Chris RyanHost1:05:23

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:23

... who loves him.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:25

And then the next day the cameras are there and there is no net, and he has not been able to do this with a tether, and he does it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:34

And at the end he collapses weeping onto these Chinese rocks.

Chris RyanHost1:05:38

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:38

And, like, the Chinese announcers are like, it, it's translated with, uh, subtitles, are like, "Mr.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:44

Potter is very emotional." [laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:05:46

[laughs] Uh, uh, this is just-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:48

An incredibly visceral and horrifying encapsulation-

Chris RyanHost1:05:52

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:52

... of what the world does to all of us to some small degree, but particularly to this guy who, whether simplistically or not, and clearly r- ruinously kind of believed in his own...

Chris RyanHost1:06:06

Mythology

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:07

... mythology.

Chris RyanHost1:06:07

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:07

That's the word.

Chris RyanHost1:06:08

And he's, and he's, th- that's a great encapsulation of all of his best and worst impulses.

Chris RyanHost1:06:13

Like, he w- there is a degree of an entertainer in him, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:16

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:06:16

But there is also a degree of, like, a solitary artist.

Critiquing ‘Sugar’ Season 2 & TV Storytelling Pitfalls1:06:19 – 1:14:21

Chris RyanHost1:06:19

How do you, how do you make those two things converge on Chinese state television, you know? And-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:24

And, and how do you define your life if it's only by risking death?

Chris RyanHost1:06:27

Yeah, and also, like, you're doing something where you're responsible for other people, and it's like if you're gonna essentially, like, the, your wrinkle, the thing you bring to the game is I might die.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:37

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:06:37

Like, that's dangerous for other people, and it's also dangerous for the people who love you.

Chris RyanHost1:06:41

It's an extraordinary show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:42

It is awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:06:42

It was awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:06:43

I'm glad you checked it out.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:44

Thank you for your recommendation.

Chris RyanHost1:06:45

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:45

See? I'm not just a co-host.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:46

I'm also a beneficiary.

Chris RyanHost1:06:48

Should we do a little bit of after dark about the World Cup before we get out of here?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:51

Yes, and do you want me to save my Sugar season two takes till next week? [laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:06:55

Uh, how many did you watch?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:56

I just watched [laughs] I just, I just watched one, man.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:59

I, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:02

You know, do you know-

Chris RyanHost1:07:03

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:03

I'm just like-

Chris RyanHost1:07:04

You fucking, did you stroke out for a second?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:06

The light just went out.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:07

I, do you know-

Chris RyanHost1:07:08

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:08

... do you know what my review is honestly? I could've just...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:11

Do you know the part-

Chris RyanHost1:07:12

You know what the, it's, you know what's worth pulling back-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:14

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:07:14

...

Chris RyanHost1:07:14

the curtain is that he and I were ta- Andy and I were talking about, like, what to talk about on this episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:18

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:07:18

And, you know, Lucky, the new Apple show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:20

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:07:21

Sugar is back.

Chris RyanHost1:07:22

And we both were like, "I don't want to be down on a first episode of anything."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:28

Right now.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:28

It just didn't feel good.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:29

Like, uh, but I, I mean-

Chris RyanHost1:07:30

Not after England lost.

Chris RyanHost1:07:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:31

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:32

But I did, I mean, I watched, I did watch the first part of the first episode of Lucky, and one of my favorite things about it is that it 1,000%, I, I have no inside knowledge, but, like, clearly- It started with a scene and then said X months earlier, but someone at Apple got the note that we're all sick of that, so it just took the chiron away.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:52

Like, it-

Chris RyanHost1:07:53

Oh, so it's just a flashback without telling you what's happening?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:55

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:07:55

Cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:56

But it still was like, "It'll be more exciting soon."

Chris RyanHost1:07:58

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:58

"Don't worry." Uh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:01

Uh, but yes, we didn't wanna be negative, but like I- there's something about Sugar 'cause it's like every few days I'm like-

Chris RyanHost1:08:08

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:08

... there's an LA Noir show with Colin Farrell, and he looks great in suits, and we love him, and I can't quite kick it, and my review of it ultimately is l- like that scene from the end of episode three of Succession season four where they're at the bar in New York City and Logan says, "I love you, but you're not serious people."

Chris RyanHost1:08:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:27

That's my review of Sugar.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:29

It, it, it is such like, I, h- if, if we still had...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:34

Like, if I still was a participant in the website and was, like, writing things, I would probably devote way too much time writing about this show-

Chris RyanHost1:08:40

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:40

... because it is an exemplar of like, what are we doing? Because Colin Farrell being a private detective in LA with Apple's budget is like, "Let's do it."

Chris RyanHost1:08:48

And shooting in LA, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:49

But yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:08:50

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:50

But it-

Chris RyanHost1:08:50

With, with most of the Breaking Bad cast and production team.

Chris RyanHost1:08:54

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:54

Well, well, and like did so many things, uh, for season two that I'm like, th- that I admire.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:02

Like, the, the, they, they, what they've done with the cast and, like, um, I'm just looking at the people they've added.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:07

Added for season two are actors we really like.

Chris RyanHost1:09:10

Tony Dalton.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:11

Tony Dalton, Jin Ha, Sasha Calle, uh, Shea Whigham.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:15

Like, that's awesome.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:16

And but as many people know, and I'm sorry for the spoiler, it is an LA Noir show that is revealed that our main character is also an alien.

Chris RyanHost1:09:25

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:26

An alien who understands the world through old films, so it does the dream on-

Chris RyanHost1:09:30

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:31

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:31

in which every so often it cuts to the movie that the scene is aping, which is cool when Fernando Morales is doing it in the pilot, and then just fucking exhausting in season two-

Chris RyanHost1:09:40

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:40

... episode one, reshooting pool, and it's showing scenes of like, uh, The Hustler.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:46

What's truly amazing, and I do feel like people who are studying how TV gets made these days about this season, is that the opening befo- the first eight minutes of season two is the most impressive yada yada I've maybe ever seen, in which Sam Catlin, who used to work on the Vince Gilligan universe and worked on Severance briefly, is now fully running the show after coming on later, I think, in season one.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:10

And so the first eight minutes are like, "Remember all that shit about all the other aliens and his hunt for his alien sister and the alien brother who ran off with the knowledge of her existence? Give me eight minutes."

Chris RyanHost1:10:20

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:21

"Give me fucking eight minutes in a hotel room in Bangkok-

Chris RyanHost1:10:25

Yeah, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:25

... and we'll just be a detective show, I promise."

Chris RyanHost1:10:27

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:28

And it almost gets there, so that once he's finally back and investigating, like, brothers, boxer brothers in Koreatown, I'm like, "Okay." And it leans into other things.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:38

I'm like, it, I don't care where this alien gets his money and he buys, like, Hemingway's house in the Hollywood Hills.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:44

I'm like, "Let's, let's do that."

Chris RyanHost1:10:45

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:46

But because it is a contemporary TV show and it just feels this fealty to like, because there must be some people who are watching it being like, "Look, I don't know about detectives, but I fucking love aliens."

Chris RyanHost1:10:55

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:56

There is this, it just feels the need to, like, try to touch this third or at this point fourth rail-

Chris RyanHost1:11:01

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:01

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:01

in which case he's like, at the end of this beginning of, he's beginning a new investigation, and at the end of the episode, he's like, "Maybe more of my brothers are still out there," and he sends out, like, an alien distress signal.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:11

And I'm like, "Just nobody cares you're an alien."

Chris RyanHost1:11:14

Do you know what, h- here's what Sugar reminds me of.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:16

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:11:16

It's not reminds me of 'cause this has never happened, but it would almost be like you go to a, a California c- you know, eatery-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:23

Yeah, sure

Chris RyanHost1:11:23

... and somebody's just like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:24

Oh, here we go

Chris RyanHost1:11:24

... "Uh, we've, we've, we've, sir, you, you ordered and we brought you the branzino." And you're like, "I love branzino."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:30

Mm.

Chris RyanHost1:11:30

And they're like, "And it's, um, the branzino, would you, would you like some Parmesan with it?" And you're like, "Absolutely not."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:36

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:11:36

"Those two things shouldn't go together."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:38

Correct.

Chris RyanHost1:11:38

And they're like, "We've also roasted some Parmesan inside the branzino."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:42

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:11:42

You know? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:42

Would you like to tell us about how, would, would you like us to tell you about how we do things here?

Chris RyanHost1:11:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:11:46

And it's, we put cheese inside of a roasted fish.

Chris RyanHost1:11:49

You can't get it out.

Chris RyanHost1:11:50

You know what I mean? Like you-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:51

You can't get it out

Chris RyanHost1:11:51

... now you're, now you're stuck with these two flavors-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:54

That's right

Chris RyanHost1:11:54

... that have been separated for a reason and are now brought together, and there are probably, there is probably a pretty cool hour and 45 minute detective movie-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:03

It-

Chris RyanHost1:12:03

... from 1997 about an alien.

Chris RyanHost1:12:06

And I, and I, I think it could've worked, and I admire Colin Farrell for just trying stuff, but this-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:12

It's-

Chris RyanHost1:12:12

... was always like, it's in fact like you cannot separate it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:16

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:16

It's too late.

Chris RyanHost1:12:16

And if you're fully in it, and so I, I just, I, and, and for that reason, I'm out.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:21

Serialization.

Chris RyanHost1:12:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:22

Serialization, intense canonical serialization is the, like, de facto storytelling model of our time, and it is also kind of the anchor and the curse.

Chris RyanHost1:12:31

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:31

Because y- just start it over would be better.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:36

Just start it in the right place is so crucial.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:39

But much like I am sure that there are a lot of-

Chris RyanHost1:12:41

It would've been better if he wakes up and is like, "God, it was a weird dream about me being an alien."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:44

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:45

Now let's go and-

Chris RyanHost1:12:45

"Now I get to be a detective." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:46

There, there's a, I imagine right now there's some big brains who are dispatched to Atlanta to the set of Men of Tomorrow being like, "So Supergirl rejected soundly.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:56

How do we now rework this movie to pick up the threads that people liked, but not the ones they didn't like, and how do we edit Lobo out of this or reduce Milly Alcock-"

Chris RyanHost1:13:05

Yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:05

"... whatever." We're always, they're always trying to backfill and front fill at the same time instead of telling the story.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:10

And the other sin is, and I mean no disrespect to all the lovely and talented people who must have worked on the show, if you're gonna be a noir, you've gotta get some crackling dialogue.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:19

You can't just cosplay it, and there's a scene in this episode where Colin Farrell, who looks the part, he's incredible, beautiful suit, beautiful car, and he's raising a cocktail in a bar and he's having some, you know, like, smoky conversation with a woman, and this is the dialogue, okay? Unpack this for me.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:34

She says, "I'm Charlotte." And he says, "Like the web?" Then she says, "Like the spider's web."

Chris RyanHost1:13:43

What other web would there be?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:44

What other web is it?

Chris RyanHost1:13:45

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:45

The worldwide fucking web?

Chris RyanHost1:13:46

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:47

What other web? What was that?

Chris RyanHost1:13:51

I mean, I didn't think-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:52

Also-

Chris RyanHost1:13:52

... you were gonna do anything on Sugar.

Chris RyanHost1:13:53

You have, like, a whole presentation here.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:55

What-

Chris RyanHost1:13:55

This is amazing

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:56

... what's the difference? So when she says, "He's like a spider's web," which I guess is an effective tool to capture prey.

Chris RyanHost1:14:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:03

And she's like, "No, no, I'm like the web that writes messages so a pig will live."

Chris RyanHost1:14:08

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:09

And he's like, "Oh, I see how that's gonna be relevant because I'm a farmer."

Chris RyanHost1:14:12

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:12

Do you know, like-

Chris RyanHost1:14:13

Did he say that?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:14

No.

Chris RyanHost1:14:14

Oh, okay.

Chris RyanHost1:14:14

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:14

But I'm trying to make it make sense.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:16

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:14:16

I won't be watching.

Chris RyanHost1:14:17

Thank you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:18

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:14:18

You saved me some time.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:19

I, I just, I just want things to be g- good, man.

Chris RyanHost1:14:21

I know, and this is-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:22

I just-

Chris RyanHost1:14:22

... a passion project for you, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:23

It is.

Chris RyanHost1:14:23

I get it.

Chris RyanHost1:14:26

Did, did you have any observations about the World Cup you'd like to share?

World-Cup Recap & Tottenham Fandom Pledge1:14:29 – 1:24:49

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:29

Um, well, I did say-

Chris RyanHost1:14:31

Ooh, I love it

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:32

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:32

I did say in our text thread yesterday with our, our English mate, Joe, that, like, now I do-- I feel like now I can apply for citizenship.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:40

Like, I already have spent a lot of time there-

Chris RyanHost1:14:42

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:42

... and do enjoy a piece of steamed fish and then a night at the pub having [laughs] a small beer.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:47

[laughs] Fucking...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:48

Sorry, application rejected.

Chris RyanHost1:14:50

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:50

I'm just saying that, like, I did feel, like, this was my first full World Cup supporting the Three Lions, and, like-

Chris RyanHost1:14:56

What would you do-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:57

I get it

Chris RyanHost1:14:57

...

Chris RyanHost1:14:57

if confronted with Liam Gallagher's adage about-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:00

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:15:00

... uh, well, "We don't go out for one.

Chris RyanHost1:15:02

If I'm going out, we're having hundreds."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:04

I have had drinks with Conrad Kay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:05

Like, I-

Chris RyanHost1:15:06

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:07

And by drinks, I've watched him have drinks.

Chris RyanHost1:15:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:10

I've, you know, I, I, I confronted it every day [laughs] along with my mortality-

Chris RyanHost1:15:15

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:16

... and the heat death of my liver when I was there.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:19

I'm not good at that, uh-

Chris RyanHost1:15:20

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:20

... anymore.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:21

But, um-

Chris RyanHost1:15:23

So watching England get its heart torn out on international television prepares you for your inevitable-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:28

Migration

Chris RyanHost1:15:28

... uh, migration.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:29

No, it just made me feel like I'd earned it more because, you know, as a, as a lifelong fan of my beloved Tottenham Hotspur, like, you know, we had a-

Chris RyanHost1:15:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:36

... we had a rough spell recently, but we're poised to come back stronger than ever thanks to some crucial international signings.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:43

Um-

Chris RyanHost1:15:43

[laughs] You, you-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:44

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:15:45

... you are-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:45

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:15:46

...

Chris RyanHost1:15:46

the Sugar of being a Tottenham fan.

Chris RyanHost1:15:48

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:48

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:15:48

You're like, I arrived-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:49

Reboot

Chris RyanHost1:15:49

... on this planet.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:50

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:50

[laughs] Yeah, I totally am.

Chris RyanHost1:15:51

I, I read a lot of The Athletic articles, and now I'm ready to go.

Chris RyanHost1:15:55

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:55

Well, in, in my defense, I-

Chris RyanHost1:15:57

And then we cut to, like, famous Gareth Bale goals, like, in between.

Chris RyanHost1:16:01

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:01

[laughs] In my defense, I did-- I've spent a lot of time in London recently, and I've had-- I have lovely friends across the aisle, both sides of the aisle.

Chris RyanHost1:16:09

Oh, both sides of the North London aisle?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:10

I, I, I-- well, and just across the Premier League-

Chris RyanHost1:16:13

Uh-huh

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:13

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:13

in English football generally.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:14

And I must say that, that culturally and emotionally, I really, really connected with-

Chris RyanHost1:16:20

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:20

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:20

the absolute abject misery and self-loathing of Tottenham fans, especially over the last season.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:27

And I was-

Chris RyanHost1:16:28

I assure you all 20 clubs-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:29

True

Chris RyanHost1:16:30

... feel the exact same way about themselves

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:31

But it did feel right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:33

I just felt like I was vibing with these friends in particular and where they were in their relationship to sport.

Chris RyanHost1:16:38

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:39

And I also thought-- I thought two things, and I'll share them just, just us, just us dormice.

Chris RyanHost1:16:47

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:47

Um-

Chris RyanHost1:16:48

Just us alien detectives.

Chris RyanHost1:16:49

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:49

Just, just us, just us alien fucking podcasters.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:52

Um, one was-

Chris RyanHost1:16:53

This is where I take my skin off.

Chris RyanHost1:16:55

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:56

[laughs] Yeah, but your-- underneath it is just Liverpool red.

Chris RyanHost1:16:59

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:16:59

It's Bill.

Chris RyanHost1:17:00

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:01

[laughs] He's hosting this podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:04

Uh, he wouldn't put up with this shit.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:06

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:17:06

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:06

Um, that I did feel, like, some sort of perverse sports pride of, like, joining a team.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:12

I, I was committing as they were getting relegated.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:15

I was like, "This would be a good arc.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:17

I'm okay with this, that even if we have to fight our way back-

Chris RyanHost1:17:20

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:20

... to the Premier League, like, that's fine." So I did feel like that was a good choice that was not front-running.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:26

And yet secretly, my next step was realizing, um, you know, because we finally got rid of, you know, the, the, the, the money manager who was really dragging the squad down with his-

Chris RyanHost1:17:34

Daniel Levy?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:36

Well, I knew that.

Chris RyanHost1:17:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:36

I just didn't wanna embarrass you.

Chris RyanHost1:17:37

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:37

Yeah, with his, you know, his, his, his, uh, little bit of a skinflint, you know? Like, he wouldn't pay more than 100 pounds for a transfer.

Chris RyanHost1:17:44

He d- drove a hard bargain.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:45

[laughs] That's right.

Chris RyanHost1:17:47

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:49

So, so to, to join a, a team now that they're like, "I guess we better spend and buy everybody"-

Chris RyanHost1:17:53

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:54

... is a really good time to become a fan.

Chris RyanHost1:17:56

It is.

Chris RyanHost1:17:56

If it blows up, you will be insolvent.

Chris RyanHost1:17:58

But, uh- [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:59

Who among-- I mean, that's all of us.

Chris RyanHost1:18:01

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:18:01

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:01

I also did feel like it was important to throw myself across the landmine of this club's, I would say, complicated relationship to Judaism.

Chris RyanHost1:18:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:14

You know? Like, and, and, and their fan base-

Chris RyanHost1:18:16

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:16

... and some of the chants-

Chris RyanHost1:18:17

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:17

... and some of the-- I was like, "I think that, I think this is a dialogue that could benefit from my presence."

Chris RyanHost1:18:22

Are you, are you excited to engage with people about it?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:24

Thrilled, especially online.

Chris RyanHost1:18:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:26

I think it'll be good.

Chris RyanHost1:18:27

Well, I think that, y- you know, if you thought TV internet was annoying-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:30

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:18:31

... wait till you fucking get a load of this.

Chris RyanHost1:18:33

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:33

But do you think generally, like, I, I mean, you did share a lot of I thought quite smart thoughts about England's failed strategy yesterday.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:40

But as a longer and actually credentialed football fan, is there anything you would like to share about England's flame out and my burgeoning attempt? I mean, every four years, I'm like, "I'm gonna get really into club soccer," but-

Chris RyanHost1:18:50

I just, I wanna know how, how accountable you want me to keep you.

Chris RyanHost1:18:54

How-- Do you want me to hold you accountable for this, this new hot, new passion of yours? Like, do you want me-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:59

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:18:59

... to be like, "Hey, man, 11:00 AM, Tottenham's playing Everton-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:03

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:19:03

... on Peacock"?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:04

That would be good for both of us because you hate Everton.

Chris RyanHost1:19:06

And you'll-- I, I don't like Everton, but, like, it, it-- I just wanna know, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:10

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:19:10

... is this something where you're like, y- you want me to, you know, measure you as you, as you go along?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:15

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:19:15

Or is it just, like, let you have your experience?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:17

I mean, I think that-- No, I want, I want, I wanna be held accountable.

Chris RyanHost1:19:21

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:22

I, you know-

Chris RyanHost1:19:22

'Cause I don't have children, so it's okay for me to watch stuff [laughs] whenever.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:26

Well, to be fair, maybe it's just, like, accrued hours.

Chris RyanHost1:19:28

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:28

But, like, so far you haven't questioned my 76ers fandom bonafides even though I don't really watch the games.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:35

[laughs] So-

Chris RyanHost1:19:35

Well, I don't really think you super love watching sports.

Chris RyanHost1:19:38

I think they stress you out.

Chris RyanHost1:19:38

I think you love following sports.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:41

I have l-- But yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:41

Well, the World Cup, maybe because of the lack of, like, s- decades of deep emotional, um, parasocial-

Chris RyanHost1:19:48

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:48

... fuckery-

Chris RyanHost1:19:49

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:49

... has just been a pure joy.

Chris RyanHost1:19:50

And you've never come out one side or the other on the Falklands either

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:52

eitherWell, that's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:54

I, I'm like [laughs] let, let the voters of Maine decide that one too.

Chris RyanHost1:19:57

That's right.

Chris RyanHost1:19:57

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:57

Throw that one on the fire for them.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:59

Uh, I would like to be held accountable.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:00

I am excited.

Chris RyanHost1:20:01

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:01

Every four years I do say some version of, like, "Now is the time to just really become a dedicated Premier League fan," and then I run up against the realities of life and time zones.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:10

But I think it's-

Chris RyanHost1:20:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:11

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:11

I think I'm, I think I'm ready.

Chris RyanHost1:20:12

I'll say this about yesterday's match.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:14

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:20:15

Fuck.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:16

Yeah, it sucked.

Chris RyanHost1:20:17

Also, when Lautaro Mar- Martinez scored the winner-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:22

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:20:23

...

Chris RyanHost1:20:23

the reaction of the Argentinian players-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:26

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:20:27

... is, is, is the, the plunger going into the vein.

Chris RyanHost1:20:31

That is what it is all about.

Chris RyanHost1:20:33

Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost1:20:33

... it's a, it's a celebration, but it's like a connection with their fans and it's also, like, an act that is unique in sports, I think.

Chris RyanHost1:20:44

Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:44

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:20:44

... scoring a goal for your national team to win a match of that consequence-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:49

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:20:49

... um, it blows my mind every time it happens, and it happens every, you know, couple months, every couple years.

Chris RyanHost1:20:55

Like, whatever the, in a Premier League match, in a Champions League match-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:58

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:20:58

... you'll see something and you're just like, "Holy fucking shit, I can't believe," like, 80,000 people are having, like, a, a, an absolute, like, out-of-body experience.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:10

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:21:10

The guys on the field are the same people as the people in the stands.

Chris RyanHost1:21:13

Like, it just feels like that is, that is something that I chase all the time with this sport.

Chris RyanHost1:21:18

It's why I, I will never quit it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:20

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:21:20

And it's why for as much of, like, you know, a secondary market ticket hiking, you know, bullshit festival that you could see the World Cup as-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:30

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:21:30

... it's still, like, unlike anything else.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:32

It's the best, right.

Chris RyanHost1:21:32

And I was talking to Ian about this when I was just, like, you know, we were, we were talking about our buddies at Bad Brother and, and Nick at the bar w- who is in Philadelphia during the group stages was like, "Dude, just, like, some nights, like, 25 Ecuadorians would just come and hang out" [laughs] you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:21:46

It's like un- that never happens.

Chris RyanHost1:21:48

That's not, there's not, like, a normal experience where people travel like this and people go to support their countries and their, and their sides like this, and it's, it's really astonishing.

Chris RyanHost1:21:58

So on the one hand, like, while I, uh, don't love that Argentina team, like, watching them win in some way was, like, why I also love the sport.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:08

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:22:08

The other aspect-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:09

Beautifully said

Chris RyanHost1:22:09

... of fascination-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:10

I agree

Chris RyanHost1:22:10

... about yesterday is that they have had...

Chris RyanHost1:22:14

I've watched multiple generations at this point of the England national team-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:17

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:22:17

... and several managers, and there is something so deeply interesting about whether or not there is, like, an inherent characteristic in the English football players specifically that is like I can't really, I can't imagine a success too big.

Chris RyanHost1:22:33

You know? Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:33

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:22:34

... whether they, whether they actually do start freaking out if-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:39

If it looks like they're gonna win

Chris RyanHost1:22:40

...

Chris RyanHost1:22:40

if it looks like they're gonna win.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:41

Or succeed, yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:22:41

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:22:42

And in some ways they would've been better off going down one-nothing.

Chris RyanHost1:22:45

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:46

Yeah, be- that fits the narrative.

Chris RyanHost1:22:47

'Cause they could've just been like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:48

Classic international underdogs, the English

Chris RyanHost1:22:49

... we're, we're going out on our shields.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:51

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:22:51

And we're gonna play, play football, and we're gonna wreck these guys, and we're, we're gonna, we're gonna go for it, you know? And it, that, instead they kind of accidentally ceded that role to the Argentinians, and it was-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:02

Chris RyanHost1:23:03

...

Chris RyanHost1:23:03

it, it was a, it was a weird match.

Chris RyanHost1:23:04

Weird first half, people kicking the shit out of each other.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:07

Violent, yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:23:07

And then just, like, bang, bang, bang, and it's over.

Chris RyanHost1:23:09

And I was like, oh, that was a month.

Chris RyanHost1:23:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:11

I, I, I, and I think I have not, I certainly have not earned my place at the commentator's table, but I think even I shot a WhatsApp being like-

Chris RyanHost1:23:19

This seems like the wrong strategy.

Chris RyanHost1:23:21

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:21

I do think they should play offense.

Chris RyanHost1:23:23

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:23:23

You don't score one touchdown and go, "Okay, prevent defense." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:26

We're, I mean, there are teams that have done that.

Chris RyanHost1:23:27

Sure, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:28

But, uh, doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:31

Um, w- what would your, not to shine too bright a light on it, but what do you think your father would've thought about, uh, England going to defeat due to the strategical maneuverings of a German?

Chris RyanHost1:23:41

Uh, I d- I don't wanna comment on, on-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:44

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:23:45

... on how my father would've felt about that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:47

That specific nation.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:48

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:23:48

Yeah.