‘Cape Fear’ Episode 3: Who Stalks the Stalkers?

Joanna RobinsonHost0:00

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Joanna RobinsonHost0:10

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Joanna RobinsonHost0:16

Do you?

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Joanna RobinsonHost0:23

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[upbeat music]

Joanna RobinsonHost1:33

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV Podcast Feed.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:35

I'm Greta Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:36

And we're here with episode three of Cape Fear by, guys, guess what? Popular demand.

Yeah.

Truly.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:43

Genuinely popular demand.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:46

Um, we're-

How did they know that we'd...

Joanna RobinsonHost1:49

Well, they, they told us something that we came to on our own.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:53

Which is that we need to really kind of lean in to this particular brand of Apple TV show, which is, um, I'm calling it Trash Trapeze Theater.

Bravo.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:03

You can call it whatever you want.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:05

We got s- some suggestions sent to us, but, like, when we did Presumed Innocent, and we talked about this a little bit, like, maybe we would've, we would've enjoyed our coverage of Disclaimer even more if we had just leaned into this particular brand of Apple programming, which is just sort of absolutely insane, kind of pulpy, often campy, s- dare I say sometimes bad, uh, shows exist, and they've cast incredible actors, and sometimes it's great and sometimes it's terrible, and you just have to take it all together and wrap your arms around it.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:36

And it's summertime.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:38

Uh, I might be wearing a sweater, but it is warm and, warm and sweltering outside in Los Angeles, California, so, like, it, it reminds me of, like, True, watching True Blood on HBO during the summer and just sorta like-

That's a great call

Joanna RobinsonHost2:49

... you're just like, "Let's do it.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:50

Come on."

We know why we're here.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:51

Yeah.

I think that was some of the difference with Disclaimer, which, yes, we might have enjoyed it more all the way through if we knew that's what it was from the jump.

I don't know that Kevin Kline knew that.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:58

[laughs]

I don't know that Cate Blanchett knew that.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:00

It's true.

Presumed Innocent and Cape Fear, I feel like they have a good-

Joanna RobinsonHost3:03

They know

... feel for how sweaty and, like, low-key trashy the source material is.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:08

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:08

So we will be covering this for, uh, uh, for the foreseeable week to week.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:12

That is the plan.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:13

Rob, can you remind folks where they can email us if they have, uh, questions, comments, or concerns?

Always at prestigetv@spotify.com, but especially for Cape Fear.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:21

Mm-hmm.

Thinkofababycarrot@gmail.com.

I don't like saying it, I don't like thinking it, but you must type it into your browser to email us.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:30

Uh, you cannot type toeinajar@gmail.com.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:32

It will not get to us.

No.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:34

Thinkofababycarrot@gmail.com. That's the way.

You must think of a baby carrot first to even get the toe in the jar.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:39

Mm, correct.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:40

Correct.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:40

Um, all right, so this is episode three of the show, uh, Phantom Sensation, speaking of, I guess, missing toes, um, written by Alan Page Arriaga and directed by Amanda Marcellez, who among many other things has a long, storied TV directing career, but, uh, did five episodes of The Pit kind of recently, so there's that.

Nice.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:02

Um, uh, w- we didn't mention Morton Tyldum, who's, like, who I know from an infamous, um, Oscar season.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:11

Uh, but anyway, director of The Imitation Game, uh, directed the, the premiere, and Headhunters, which is an incredible, uh, movie.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:18

And then S.H., S.J. Clarkson, who's a great TV director, directed episode two.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:22

Reed Morano, who is an incredible TV director, is directing episode four.

Mm.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:25

So they got great directors to shoot these dead skunks and backyard panthers and, um, you know, counter-hopping cats and all the other things that are in this show.

I mean, I think there's a lot of fun you can have with it-

Joanna RobinsonHost4:38

Yeah

... as a director.

The, the, like, playing they're doing with color, with mood, with tone, with, you know, even just getting the moments of levity from, like, Javier Bardem getting to cut up a little bit.

How can you not have fun directing an episode like this?

Joanna RobinsonHost4:50

We've got a couple emails.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:50

We'll get to those.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:51

But before we do any of that-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost4:53

... we wanna start with the thing that happens in episode three that made both of us go, "Oh, holy shit."

[laughs] That's the show we're watching.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:00

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:01

Um, I texted you, I didn't tell you what it was, and then I was worried that I had overplayed it when I texted it to you, but then you watched it, and you texted me and you said, "Holy shit."

I did.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:10

What happened, Rob?

Well, l- let's, let's back up even further than that.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:14

What happened? [laughs]

First of all, you and I try to rarely or sparsely talk about these episodes-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:19

Yes

... before we podcast.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:20

We don't do that.

We're trying to save the material for this conversation.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:23

Yeah.

Your outsized reaction to this episode, out of character, unusual, and I, I can understand the, the temptation of like, "Oh, did I overplay that?" So then I start watching the episode.

I'm locked in.

I'm like-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:34

Yeah

... all right, I know Joe loves Ethan Embry.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:36

[laughs]

But this could not have been about Ethan Embry, right?

Joanna RobinsonHost5:38

I did have a, "Oh my God, it's Ethan Embry," but I never-

As did I

Joanna RobinsonHost5:40

...

Joanna RobinsonHost5:41

I never would've texted you about that.

Pleasantly surprised to see him.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:43

Yeah.

But I was like, it can't be that.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:44

No.

Um, Francesca Scor- Scorsese.

Could it be her?

Joanna RobinsonHost5:48

Sure.

I was like, it, it simply could not be.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:49

Right.

Sure enough by the end of the episode, uh, Juliette Fucking Lewis is here.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:54

Yes.

I have many questions.

I'm sure we can get into some of the theories.

I have no idea what to do with any of this.

It is great, and it's silly, and I love it.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:02

It's very exciting.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:02

Juliette Lewis, who we mentioned, is like, I mean, De Niro, but, like, Juliette Lewis is like- Ca- the orig- the '90s Cape Fear movie

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost6:09

She's incredible in it.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:10

She was Oscar nominated for it.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:12

So here she is.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:13

And we should say, this is a Cape Fear tradition because-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost6:15

...

Joanna RobinsonHost6:15

Gregory Peck and Robert Mitchum, who were in the 1960s movie, show up in the 1990s movie.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:19

So they got the two leads of the 1960s movie to show up.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:22

So I was going back through, I told you this, I was going back through, like, uh, junket interviews-

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost6:27

... that the cast gave.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:28

And this is the, the thing that Amy Adams said that both Patrick Wi- Wilson and Javier Bardem were like, "Ooh, well said."

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost6:35

She said, "There are cameos from the genre-"

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost6:39

"... throughout the show, so be on the lookout."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:44

So by, from the genre, does she mean from the Cape Fear universe? Like is-

From the Capes Fear

Joanna RobinsonHost6:51

... is, is, is Jessica Lange showing up?

Wow.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:54

Did we get, did Scorsese get De Niro? He got his daughter in here on the, on a, on a cellphone.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:59

It's like, is De Niro going to show up-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost7:02

... later this season? The fact that they kept Juliette Lewis under wraps is astonishing to me.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:07

And you were saying, like, you didn't watch Yellowjackets, so this is like, you haven't seen Juliette Lewis in a while.

In a new thing in a long time.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:13

It's not, like, new, you know, because for people who watch Yellowjackets or if people watched the Tonys on Sunday, she was up there on stage 'cause she's in the Rocky Horror Picture Show on Broadway right now.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:21

But, um, you know, Juliette Lewis has been around.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:23

But, like-

Oh, yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost7:24

... to have her show up here is just so fun.

It's really juicy.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:28

And she gives, like, a great deranged Juliette Lewis performance.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:32

I had a really fun time because I thought I was 10 steps ahead of the show, but the show was 10 steps ahead of me 'cause I was like, "Oh, they have to hide her face because those characters know her." No, they hid her face because we know her.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost7:43

It's Juliette Lewis.

My mind was genuinely blown by this.

I think it's, it was so exciting-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:49

Yeah

... because yeah, it blows open the possibility of what kind of story this is, who could appear in it.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:54

Yeah.

I mean, I'm not taking off the table the idea that this is a weird postmodern Cape Fear in which is this is literally the same little Bowden girl who has now grown up into a recursive cyclone-

Joanna RobinsonHost8:06

Mm

... of terror and fear that she's now participating in in a psychologically damaging and hypnotic capacity.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:11

I love that.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:13

Um, to go back really quickly to the Amy Adams from the genre story, uh, l- line.

Mm.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:19

I was wondering if she meant, like, 'cause Ted Levine, who obviously was in, uh, Silence of the Lambs, has already shown up here.

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:25

So maybe she means of these sort of like '90s horror thriller genre.

I could see that.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:31

So maybe that's, I...

Joanna RobinsonHost8:32

Ethan Embry hasn't been in anything like that, but, um-

No

Joanna RobinsonHost8:35

... that I can recall, unless you think of High School Parties as a horror movie.

I was gonna say, Kick-Start My Heart is a little-

Joanna RobinsonHost8:39

[laughs]

It's stalker-y mildly at, at minimum

Joanna RobinsonHost8:42

That's true.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:43

Um, uh, justice for Preston Meyers.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:46

Um-

Eh.

[laughs] I don't, I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:49

I'll fight you.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost8:50

I'll fight you.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:51

Email us, pressucv@spotify.com or thinkofababycarriage@gmail.com if there are other actors either from Cape Fear, so like-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost8:59

... is Nick Nolte on the table? Is Jessica Lange on the table? Is De Niro on the table?

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:03

Are there other people here who could show up? Um, we know that Ron Perlman's in the cast.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:08

We don't know who he's playing.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:10

Um, you know, Buffalo Bill is fricking here, so, like, who else from a '90s sort of horror thriller could show up? I'm curious if people have thoughts or...

There are so many options.

And what if it's the, the broader Fear-verse and we get, like, a Richard Gere and Ed Norton in here somewhere?

Joanna RobinsonHost9:24

Oh.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:24

[laughs]

You know? And like, let's, let's just really tie all these things together.

Let's create an actual cinematic universe of-

Joanna RobinsonHost9:29

Mark Wahlberg

... weird summer slop

Joanna RobinsonHost9:31

Mark Wahlberg and Reese Witherspoon from the film Fear.

I can't wait.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:34

And also Primal Fear and also Cape Fear.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:36

I think you've really cracked it here.

I, I think this is it.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:38

And what about Fear Street?

Uh.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:39

Does that count?

That might be too far.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:41

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:41

All right.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:41

Anyway, point being, Juliette Lewis is here.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:43

I, so the thing I like about having her here because the way they used Gregory Peck and Robert Mitchum was really fun in the '90s movie because, um, Mitchum was sort of, like, on the side of law enforcement and Gregory Peck plays this sort of, like, slimy lawyer-

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost10:00

... who was defending Max Cady.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:01

So they kind of flipped their, their moral codes-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost10:04

... inside of that.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:05

So to have Juliette Lewis, who played the teenage girl who was, like, stalked and tormented by Max Cady, to stalk and torment Max Cady is quite fun.

It is quite fun.

And it's also kind of raising the idea, this is a season of television.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:22

Yeah.

We got a lot to, lot of plot to spin through.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:24

Yeah.

We gotta go down some dead ends and figure out what's what.

But raises the idea that Max Cady is himself a kind of victim.

And may- I think especially with his response to the song, I know we wanna get into the dangling of the dog collar-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:35

Mm

... all this stuff, the past trauma.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:36

You love The Butthole Surfers.

What am I if not a Butthole Surfer?

Joanna RobinsonHost10:40

[laughs] Um, I think that, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:45

Well, that's been here from the jump.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:47

Like, we already had his sort of like, uh, was he guilty when he went into prison?

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:51

I think yes, but we can debate that.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:54

Um-

But the show is kind of like daring you to buy into that.

It's like, are you sure you wanna believe that this guy is innocent of something, or is he just evil enough that even if he's innocent he's still a bad dude?

Joanna RobinsonHost11:04

Or like, you know, that controversial phrase of like, "Hurt people hurt people." Like, did he do this horrible thing, but also was he, you know, ab- he was abused as a child because-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost11:14

... we have seen flashbacks both in episode two and now here of him in a cage.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:18

Like, his father was a dog trainer.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:20

His father seems to have, like, dog trained him, put a collar on him, and put him in a cage to get him to behave.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:25

There's also some, like, weird religious trauma that was associated with that-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost11:29

... down at Cape Fear River.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:31

The reaction that he has to Juliette Lewis singing The Butthole Surfers feels almost like Pavlovian.

Yeah.

Winter Soldier-y.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:39

Yeah

... activation.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:40

Manchurian Candidate-esque.

Definitely.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:42

And so, you know, he, like, he has to, like, when he hears The Butthole Surfers.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:48

So it's, to me it seems like she has to be someone from his childhood, someone who knew-

Who at least knows that

Joanna RobinsonHost11:55

... knows that he has a trigger, a Butthole Surfer trigger or, or any-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost11:59

Or is it any...

Joanna RobinsonHost12:01

I didn't, I didn't-

Thebutholesurfertrigger@gmail.com

Joanna RobinsonHost12:04

I didn't write this show.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost12:05

Somebody else wrote this show.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:07

[laughs] But like- Or is it, i- is it, like, any, uh, any song with the phrase dog collar-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost12:14

... and it will work, or something like that.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:15

I don't know.

This seems more specific.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:17

Yeah.

'Cause, like, as soon as she starts singing it, you can see his reaction.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:20

Yeah.

That he kinda knows what's coming and knows the effect it's about to have on him-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:23

Right

... as he starts screaming into the void and smashing this TV with a fire poker, and every bit of it.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:29

Yeah.

Also love, like, a staticky broken-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:31

Oh, yeah

...

VCR.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:32

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:32

You have to go analog with this.

Spazzing out.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:34

Yeah.

Julia Louis's face-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:35

Yeah

... as she, like, cackle sings and also talks at the same time.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:39

Mm-hmm.

So good.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:39

It was fantastic.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:41

Yeah, I, I mean, theories abound.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:43

Very exciting-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost12:44

... uh, that she's here.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:45

I'm not, I'm still not ruling out that's his d- quote-unquote dead wife with plastic surgery.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:51

Uh, plastic surgery exists.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:53

So I'm just, like, keeping it on the board.

So you think, spoiler alert, in a Speed Racer-esque capacity-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:58

[laughs] Yes

... she has undergone extensive plastic surgery.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:01

What if s- what is Scott Porter is not Matthew Fox?

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost13:04

Persisting.

It's very true.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:06

[laughs] Um, this is the kind of show it feels like we're watching.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:10

You know? That she could show up with plastic surgery.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:12

Because when she's like, "Heard you got out," and, and we are primed from the woman who, uh, encounters Max Katie eating ice cream in a very disturbing fashion.

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:23

Like, Ray Liotta would never, uh, eat his ice cream that way.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:27

Um, that okay, there's women all over-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost13:31

... th- th- the shop that are so excited that Max Katie's out of prison, so perhaps they can fuck him.

Wendy Wilson.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:37

So, like-

The woman in question.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:38

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:38

So, like, um, allegedly that's the name she gives.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:43

But he's like, "I don't know, Wendy.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:44

Do we know each other?"

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost13:45

I'm not gonna do the accent.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:46

I'm sorry.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost13:46

I started.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:47

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:47

So, um, we're primed to think that Julia Louis, when she knocks on the door, uh, of Ana's room, is just another one of these, like-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost13:54

... sex craved, uh, you know, uh, women.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:58

But I don't think at all-

No

Joanna RobinsonHost14:00

... that's what's going on here.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:01

And so my question was is she, "I heard you got out," is it not so that we can have sex? It's like, sorry, follow me down this rabbit hole.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:09

If she f- if this is his ex, his wife-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost14:12

... who faked her death to hide her son from him-

Okay

Joanna RobinsonHost14:16

... 'cause she was afraid he was going to abuse her son or something like that.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:18

She finds out she's pregnant.

Yep.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:20

She doesn't want her son raised by him or whatever.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:22

She fakes her death, blah, blah, blah.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:23

She's like, "I heard you got out." If he's out, he's, like, a danger to the son.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:28

Like, that's why she would be upset that he got out.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:31

Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:32

Are you following me? [laughs]

I'm, I'm trying to follow it.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:34

Sorry.

I'm gonna just say right now-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:36

No, but no, but here's what, here's...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:38

Let me just say one other thing.

Please.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:39

Is the reason AI slop dead son exists so that when real son shows up, we will know what he looks like?

What if the whole AI slop son thing is a misdirect, though-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:51

Mm

... and there wa- it's just an assumption that it was a son to begin with, and, like, Neveah is his actual biological daughter or something.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:57

Or sex change.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:58

Listen.

Anything is on the table.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:00

Everything's on the table.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:01

[laughs]

This is what I'm saying.

I just wanna apologize blanket in advance.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:04

[laughs]

We are going to be very deranged with this show.

And you're, that, that-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:08

There's, there's no other way to watch it.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:09

I simply feel-

It's gonna become very clear over the course of this podcast the extent of our derangement.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:13

We do have a fun treat for the end of the podcast.

We do.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:16

For, for the video folks.

So stick around.

Come, come with us on video on this journey.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:20

Yeah.

I just don't know how else to engage with it if not to follow every one of these rabbit holes.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:24

I think it can only be fun that way.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:25

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:26

So listen, a couple emails we got.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:28

The witch stuff is really, uh, intriguing people-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost15:31

... obviously.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:32

Um, we got a, several emails about, um...

Joanna RobinsonHost15:35

I hesitated to call it voodoo because I don't know enough about that whole culture to just be like, "There's a bowl of pomegranate seeds."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:43

"It must be voodoo." So, like-

It's a specific word-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:46

Yeah

... to use in this context.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:47

Um, however, we did get an email from some, from Rio, who said that some of, um, Max's tattoos-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost15:55

... not the eyes, but some of the patterns that are on his pecs are, uh, a voodoo veve symbol, sacred cosmograms drawn in the ground in Haitian voodoo and related traditions to represent and s- invoke specific spirits or deities.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:09

So that could be a specific, more specific tie to, um, perhaps.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:15

We don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:16

The, the problem is is, like, Javier Bardem is playing a Spanish, you know, a, a half Spanish, half American.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:24

So, like, voodoo is not associated with the country of Spain.

No.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:30

So that's why I'm just sort of confused why voodoo would be here.

But he's a man who is of the world.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:35

Sure.

He's a man who has spent time in prison.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:36

Absolutely.

Like, he could have met any number of voodoo CD characters all over the place.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:41

We got an email from Marina about this drug [laughs] called devil's breath, also a South American sort of, uh, concept, but, um, there are accounts, reports of users being coerced into carrying out criminal acts after being spiked with a drug.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:57

Inadvertently under the, quote, "mind control effects" of the drug, these victims have been assaulted, conv- uh, convinced to commit violent crimes, empty their bank accounts, and even had their organs stolen.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:07

So, like, it has this hallucinogenic property that makes people highly impressionable.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:12

This drug, I guess, exists.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:15

Um-

So this might be actual witch drugs.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:17

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:18

I mean, this is a question I have.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:20

I don't know enough about this.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:21

I was asking Chris Ryan.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:22

I don't, I don't know why I thought Chris Ryan would know, like, what he thinks Patrick-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost17:25

...

Joanna RobinsonHost17:25

Wilson is microdosing.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:26

Uh, you know, we got, we got some emails about this.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:28

Our listener Sharon wrote in and said, uh, she thought he was microdosing, uh, Tom, that m- that Tom was microdosing LSD, 'cause microdosing acid is sometimes a treatment for depression, but jury's out on whether or not it works.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:40

He was using it a bit more recreationally to, like, for he and, uh, Lexi-

Just to have a good time

Joanna RobinsonHost17:47

... to unwind.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:48

Um, I still don't know exactly what's in there.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:52

Do you have any further thoughts on that?

I don't, and you asking me just makes...

It makes you feel like a narc.

Like, I feel like you're testing me.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:59

Me?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:59

Yeah.Dev called me a narc yesterday.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:01

You-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost18:02

People need to stop calling me a narc.

You just-

Joanna RobinsonHost18:03

I feel like I've done more drugs than you have

... you just keep going around, being like, "Hey, do you guys know about these drugs?"

Joanna RobinsonHost18:08

I would just like to know what he's-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost18:10

... putting on his tongue.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:11

[laughs]

As would I. I think we need, we need this question answered.

Email, I would say me.

Don't email Joe.

Email me at thinkofababycarrot@gmail.com.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:19

I'm from the Bay Area, man.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:20

You're from Texas.

I know.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:22

I don't know what to say.

I don't know.

I, I grew up in a, in a suburb that at one point I believe was called the heroin capital of the world.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:28

Oh.

Look that up.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:29

Interesting.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:30

[laughs] Okay, um, we were talking about, uh, on the flashback that Patrick Wilson's character Tom has in, in episode two.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:39

We were look- trying to examine the posters on the wall to see sort of like when this might be, and a bunch of our listeners wrote in to let us know that the...

Joanna RobinsonHost18:45

You thought you had seen a He-Man poster on sort of the interior-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost18:48

... of the room.

Inside the room.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:49

But the poster on the outside of the door, our listeners identified as a Talking Heads poster-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost18:53

... um, from the album Remain in the Light, or Remain in Light, uh, which came out in 1980.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:59

He-Man plus Talking Heads, 1980s.

Starting to add up.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:03

Yeah.

The problem is, the Talking Heads are eternal.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:05

They are.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:06

[laughs]

So it could be-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:06

I-

Could be any time

Joanna RobinsonHost19:07

... fucking love the Talking Heads.

How can you not?

Joanna RobinsonHost19:09

Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:10

Um, do you have a favorite Talking Heads song?

[sighs] I mean, I am basic, so it's, it is gonna be something off Stop Making Sense.

It's probably just Burning Down the House.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:20

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:21

Well, you ...

Joanna RobinsonHost19:22

Truly basic would be Psycho Killer, so I'll give you Burning Down the House.

I mean, Psycho Killer like slaps for a reason, you know?

Joanna RobinsonHost19:26

Yeah.

It, it has, it has gone on into history-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:29

Yeah

... well-founded.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:31

Sax and Violence is my favorite.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:33

Um, okay, so last but not least on the email front, um, I just loved this email from our listener Brandon, who said he's all in for the ride, and said, "Will it be too long? Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:44

Will it be messy? Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:47

Will the buttons on Patrick Wilson's shirts finally give out and we see his perfectly sculpted body? Only time will tell." Good news, Brandon.

It told.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:54

Here we are.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost19:56

He's lifting weights, he's sweating, and he's shirtless.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:58

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:59

On the sort of what, what of our current anxieties does this Cape Fear address, we talked about tech issues and surveillance, and that's even more so here when, when like the drone-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost20:11

... uh, takes footage of Natalie in her own backyard.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:14

And, and going back through those sort of junket interviews that the cast were giving, they were asked about this and they said, uh, you know, a lot of it has to do with like anxieties of not feeling safe in your own home, of being surveilled inside of your own home.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:25

Uh, Javier Bardem talked a lot about AI slop and f- and fake news, and you can't believe what you see.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:30

And the way in which Max Katie might take advantage of you not knowing exactly what is true and what is fake because things are so easily manipulated.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:39

Um, and then, you know, we, we've already been, I don't mean to sound like a, a narc once again, but we've been talking about drugs a plenty.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:46

I was wondering like, you know, between both Zach and Natalie like being targeted by the same young-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost20:54

... uh, alluring drug dealer, um, is this a Euphoria generation anxiety? Are we like really worried about all the various drugs, not just like weed or whatever the case may be, but like the entire bag that Nevaeh has at, at the diner full of drugs that could-

All purpose

Joanna RobinsonHost21:13

... could, uh, could come for your children?

Yes.

And I think in this case, clearly wants an in with this family, right? Like Nevaeh, it feels...

I guess you could read what she does with Natalie as retribution for Anna confronting her.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:27

That's, that's a question I had, if it was that.

And to be fair, Anna's like, "Here's a couple hundred bucks.

Let me tell you about some shelters." Fuck you, lady.

Like-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:34

What do you mean, "Fuck you, lady"?

That feels more than a little presumptuous.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:39

Uh, okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:40

Well, on the one hand, maybe.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:41

On the other hand, I don't...

Joanna RobinsonHost21:44

Nevaeh does not look like she has a regular place to sleep, to me.

I, I wouldn't presume to know.

And certainly-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:49

As you know

...

if I'm, if I'm Amy Adams in this case, I wouldn't presume to say

Joanna RobinsonHost21:51

As you and I both know, you gotta keep those bangs clean or else they get-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost21:55

...

Joanna RobinsonHost21:55

they get greasy and clumpy.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:56

You know what I mean?

It's an occupational hazard.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:58

So, uh, you know, I thought she was...

Joanna RobinsonHost22:01

Maybe she was being nice in a, like a-

I, I don't think she-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:03

... a rich white lady way

... she was not being nice.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:05

She was be- she thought, I think she thought she was being nice.

I agree.

That's the problem.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:09

Okay, fair.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:09

All right, fine.

I think you could read what Nevaeh does as s-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:12

Yeah

... like lashing out at Anna, or you could read it as she has some reason to want to be in the Bowden household.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:18

Yeah.

And this one road has dried up, and now she's gonna go this other way instead.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:22

We got some emails.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:22

Uh, skip ahead if you don't wanna know anything from the trailer.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:24

It's nothing major.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:25

But we got some emails from people a- asking if she was perhaps Max Katie's daughter, because there is...

Joanna RobinsonHost22:31

So in this episode-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost22:32

...

Joanna RobinsonHost22:32

when she feeds the drug to Natalie-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost22:34

... that's the classic Max Katie, Juliette Lewis creepy MTV kiss moment.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:41

In the trailer, she's seen laughing loudly inside of a movie theater, which is another classic Max Katie move from the '90s, the De Niro, uh, film.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:49

So like she's in many ways playing out some of Max Katie's greatest hits.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:54

So is she doing so because she's associated with him? Is this coincidental? What's going on?

Is this yet another head fake?

Joanna RobinsonHost23:02

We don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:03

Is she m- is she also Max Katie's daughter? I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:06

I have, I have...

Joanna RobinsonHost23:07

I feel like we would know.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:08

I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:08

I lied.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:09

We do have one more email, and it feeds into this sort of matching of Javier Bardem and Amy Adams that we talked about a little bit, uh, last week, 'cause we were, we were mentioning the blue e- eyes on Javier Bardem.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:21

One of our listeners was like, "Are they both blue, or is it just the one on the left side, the same side he was hit?" And Javier Bardem did say in an interview that the eyes are meant to sort of reflect the brain damage, so one is lighter because of that.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:34

But they do match Amy Adams' eyes.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:36

They also have put some red in his hair and his beard-

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost23:39

... that is not usually there.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:40

Not, he's not like ginger ginger-

No

Joanna RobinsonHost23:42

... like Amy Adams is, but there's a little auburn sort of in his hair and his beard.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:46

And then-

What do you, what do you take from that from a color theory perspective?

Joanna RobinsonHost23:49

That's-

Gin- ginger evil?

Joanna RobinsonHost23:50

It's not [laughs] no.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:51

I love and support gingers.

Just wondering.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:53

It's a we're not so different, you and I.

Got you.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:56

And that's further underlined by my favorite detail in this episode, which is that Amy Adams and Javier Bardem are wearing the exact same- ... blue linen button down shirt in different parts of the episode.

This was an insane pull by you.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:10

[laughs] I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:11

I really-

No, insane good.

Like I, I, 'cause I think the, the ways in which you see them, and it's Anna early in the episode when she's at her house-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:17

Yeah

... going through Zach's cloned phone and all that.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:20

Right.

And then later in the episode on the road trip we see Max have, I mean, what literally could be the same shirt.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:26

It's, I think it's the exact same shirt.

You think he grabbed-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:29

No

...

so, so theory-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:30

Sorry, no. [laughs] I just think it's the same-

Okay

Joanna RobinsonHost24:33

... same cut, same fabric, same store.

I'm gonna put three theories on the table.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:37

Okay.

One, they both shop at L.L.Bean.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:39

Sure.

Two, he literally grabbed this shirt when he was at their house.

Three, when they were hypothetically, allegedly shacking up, they bought his and hers matching shirts.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:49

[laughs] Uh, and he, like, kept it-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost24:51

...

Joanna RobinsonHost24:51

when he was in prison.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:52

He was just sort of like, "I gotta come back."

And so him, him showing up for the road trip wearing the shirt's like-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:55

Oh

... "This is me meeting you halfway."

Joanna RobinsonHost24:56

This is like two halves of the best friend necklace.

I think so.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:59

And he's like B fry-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost25:00

... and she's like S end.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:01

Great.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:02

Um, when she walked in and saw him in the kitchen-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost25:06

... and she's like, "What are you doing in my kitchen?" I expected her to say, "And wearing my shirt." He, th- they look very different on them because they have different, like, bodies-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost25:13

...

Joanna RobinsonHost25:13

but it's the same shirt.

Same shirt.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:15

And so I do think that, like, the blue in the eye, the red in the hair, and the same shirt, and then just sort of, like, their appreciation of each other inside-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost25:22

... of this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:23

You know? Like, when she is doing her stuff in the boardroom, uh, and he's like, "You're a pit bull." And we know how he feels about dogs.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:31

He's like, "This is the highest compliment I could pay someone.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:33

You remind me of a dog." Um, he's admiring her.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:37

They're, you know, they're having this, like, laughing over Tabitha, you know, uh, her sex noises with Dusty the cameraman, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, even earlier in the episode at the gas station-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:47

Oh, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:47

Right

... where he's kind of tormenting Tabitha-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:49

Messing with Tabitha

... a little bit.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:50

Yeah.

And Anna shows up and, like, the-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:52

Yeah

... head shake-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:53

Yeah

... and smile.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:54

Oh, you, Max.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:55

Yeah.

Super familiar.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:56

Yeah.

But also, like, Anna, you're a little fucked up.

Like-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:58

Well, well, that's what I'm saying.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:00

She's, they're not so different.

They're really not.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:02

And, um, I will say I th- I believe very firmly at the end of the episode when Tom and Anna are having sex, he's thinking about Lexi from work.

Mm.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:13

And I think she's thinking about Max Katie.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:15

I think she came home horny-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost26:17

... and he was already horned up because he and Lexi were microdosing together and cuddling on the couch, you know?

He was, but he was also like, "Let me, let me tell you about work." Like, you, you've been on a road trip with potentially the devil, and let me, let's talk about, like, prenups.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:29

No, but I think he was hor- I think he was horned up but, but he was like, "Really?" His, like, sort of, like, really or some whatever he said-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost26:34

... seemed to me that, like, they don't have sex that often.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:38

So when she's, like, initiating with him-

Now is the time

Joanna RobinsonHost26:41

... he's like, he's like, "Oh, oh, oh, we're doing this? I thought we didn't really do this much anymore.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:46

It's not a Thursday."

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost26:47

Like, what are we doing? You know what I mean? [laughs] So, like-