‘Cape Fear’ Series Premiere Recap: A New Terror

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Joanna RobinsonHost1:19

Hello.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:19

Welcome back to the Prestige TV Podcast Feed.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:21

I'm Roberta Robinson.

I am Rob Mahoney.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:22

We're here to talk about Cape Fear.

Spooky.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:25

Ooh.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:26

[laughs] Uh, the first two episodes of Cape Fear did a double premiere drop, so if you missed that and only watched the first episode, we're gonna be talking about both episodes, so you might wanna go watch them and then come back and listen to us talk about it.

I would advise it.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:39

Rob Mahoney, big picture, did you like these episodes of television?

[laughs] You know, I did.

I am intrigued.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:45

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:45

Tell me.

I think...

Look, on a, on a line-by-line level, sometimes it can be a little blunt, sometimes the dialogue can be a little on the nose.

I think it gets the most important Cape Fear thing right, which is, like, the bone-chilling unsettledness of this kind of story.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:00

Uh-huh.

I'm unsettled.

I'm sufficiently unsettled.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:03

[laughs] Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:03

So the source material that we're working with here is there's a 1957 novel by John MacDonald called The Executioners-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost2:09

... which I have procured but not cracked yet.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:12

I did rewatch the 1962 film with Gregory Peck and Robert Mitchum.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:16

And I did rewatch the 1999, uh, 1991 film from Martin Scorsese with Robert De Niro, have you heard of him, Nick Nolte, Jessica Lange, Juliette Lewis.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:25

Both Juliette Lewis and Robert De Niro got Oscar nominations-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost2:28

... for that film.

Both phenomenal in it.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:30

Extraordinary.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:31

And then, uh, of course, the 1993 episode of The Simpsons, "Cape Feare." [laughs]

Well, we should, we should...

The first three are all credited as being the basis for this show.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:42

Right.

I've...

I don't think I've ever seen that before, the ba- like, based on this novel and these two movies.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:47

But if Nick, Nick Antosca, who's the showrunner of, of this, uh, version, I think if he's being honest with himself-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost2:54

...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:54

he should credit The Simpsons as well, 'cause that is a phenomenal episode of The Simpsons.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:58

[laughs]

[laughs] Let's add it to the list.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:00

I think it was my first exposure to the story-

To Cape Fear?

Joanna RobinsonHost3:03

... of Cape Fear was that episode of The Simpsons with Sideshow Bob-

Amazing

Joanna RobinsonHost3:06

... stalking.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:06

Have you seen it?

I have seen it.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:07

Yeah.

It's been a, a minute, I'm gonna be honest with you.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:10

I th- I think it's maybe my favorite episode of The Simpsons.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:12

He sings Gilbert and Sullivan, he steps on a bunch of rakes.

Wow, it really is hitting all of your touchstones.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost3:17

[laughs] Um, all right.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:19

So this is what...

Joanna RobinsonHost3:20

So the question is why? Why do we need a 10-episode, uh, show, um, based on a book and two movies and perhaps an episode of The Simpsons that were already quite well-regarded-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost3:33

... and phenomenal? Do we need to tell this story again? And I think it is interesting to track this 1950s novel, this 1960s movie, this 1990s movie, and the way in which the story has slightly mutated over those many adaptations to reflect, and this is what Ni- Nick Antosca has said in several interviews, sort of to reflect the anxieties of the era.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:53

Every era gets its own Cape Fear.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:56

Um, and what does it say about the, the decade that, uh, it is, um, sort of exploring? And, you know, Martin Scorsese talked about that as well, where he was just sort of like, "I am remaking a movie that I regard very highly.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:11

It's sort of a, kind of a B movie."

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:14

And his version, his Cape Fear is not really like any other Martin Scorsese-

No

Joanna RobinsonHost4:21

... movie.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:22

Um, it's what...

Joanna RobinsonHost4:23

Years ago, my, my pal David Ehrlich in, in regard to the film Gone Girl, uh, I don't know if he coined this phrase, but the phrase he used was trasherpiece.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:33

Like, something that is, like-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost4:36

... great, but also schlocky at the same time.

Definitely.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:39

And, like, Martin Scorsese's Cape Fear is a-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost4:42

... absolute stone-cold trasherpiece.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:45

And, uh, all three movies are...

Joanna RobinsonHost4:48

The two movies and the TV show are using the exact same score, so that the, like... [singing]

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:53

Like, that is the Cape Fear score.

Let me tell you, still hits.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:55

It slaps.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost4:57

And then this show, right away when we get the sort of photo negative imagery that opens episode one of this show, you know, or the, the pool is colored red-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost5:07

...

Joanna RobinsonHost5:07

instead of blue, um, that's a direct visual connection to the Scorsese film.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:13

Um-

Also, we get the, the shot in episode two of Max's eyes through the slats of the closet-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:19

Right

... that's, like, basically ripped from the poster.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:21

Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:21

So do you wanna talk about sort of what our plan is to talk about this really well-known story-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost5:29

...

Joanna RobinsonHost5:29

Cape Fear, in a way that people who are watching the show maybe haven't seen any of these movies or, or read the book-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost5:35

... or watched that Simpsons episode? Like, um, you know, what's, what is a spoiler inside of this context?

I genuinely don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:42

Yeah.

And that wasn't a conversation I was expecting to have about Cape Fear-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:45

Mm-hmm

... based on the idea of it.

Uh, if you're not familiar with the movies, I would not describe them as particularly twisty.

Like, it's, it's a-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:51

No

... somewhat straightforward story.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:52

Right.

Uh, but within this adaptation, I think we're introducing all sorts of uncertainty-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:57

Yeah

... as far as what actually happened with the inciting incident, which I believe in both movies and the novel, it's a rape that Max Cady has committed.

Um, and specifically I think in some adaptations of an underage girl.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:09

Mm-hmm.

That's been now changed to his wife, his pregnant wife has been murdered.... presumably by him, but then also exonerated and released from prison.

Uh, so there's some uncertainty around what happened.

There's some, some uncertainty around the actual trial that led him and the plea bargain that apparently sent him to prison in the first place.

And I gotta say, uh, maybe he has a point as far as being a little bit mad that the prosecutor and his defense attorney ended up married.

I'm, I'm not saying he's a great guy, but I, I too would be a little fussed.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:40

Rob Mahoney, Max Cady-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost6:41

... had some good points.

Not saying that.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:43

Max Cady is one of the most iconic, like, on-screen psychopaths.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:47

Uh, you know, played incredibly by both Robert Mitchum and Robert De Niro.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:52

And to get Javier Bardem, who has already played one of our most iconic on-screen psychopaths-

Several, I would say

Joanna RobinsonHost7:00

... uh, what, what's your list?

I mean, I think, I think Skyfall might be included, too.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:04

You're...

Joanna RobinsonHost7:04

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:05

Along with-

Not, not quite as iconic as [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost7:07

As Anton Chigurh

... okay, no.

But like-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:09

Okay

...

I do think this version in, in its deviations from the De-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:13

Oh

...

Niro one especially, which is like a functionally illiterate man who is, like, malicious and evil, and this version is more verbal in the way that Javier Bardem characters tend to be.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:24

Um, that's interesting because, like, Anton Chigurh is pretty non-verbal, right?

That's true.

I guess, I guess he goes both ways.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:30

Um, so here's, here's what's interesting.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:34

We're not gonna talk about sort of like the ending of Cape Fear, I guess is, is what we're-

No

Joanna RobinsonHost7:38

... we're gonna stay away from.

And for the record, we don't know the ending of this series.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:42

Right, and we talked about this a lot with Presumed Innocent, where Rob didn't know the story of Presumed Innocent.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:47

I did.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:48

We were so careful about that, and then that version of that story was completely different at the end.

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:53

So how far off the map are they gonna go with this version? There's already so many differences.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:58

But I do wanna talk about this core difference across all the adaptations, which is as we go forward in time and as our world gets more complex perhaps, this blurring of the lines, morality lines-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost8:12

... uh, you know, i- is... increases.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:15

So in the, in the 1962 film, we have cast Gregory Peck as Sam Bowden-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost8:23

...

Joanna RobinsonHost8:23

the, the attorney, Atticus Finch himself, like just the most upstanding-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost8:28

... citizen possible, and it is Sam Bowden, family man, and his lovely family, and what happens when this elemental evil, as represented by Robert Mitchum-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost8:37

... comes to town and, and destroys your family.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:40

I just recorded an episode of The Rewatchables that's part of this From Hell month that Bill is doing-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost8:46

... and this is the sort of the con- his overreaching concept of From Hell, which is like this element has entered-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost8:53

... your home and is here to destroy it.

And is distinctly uncomplicated in some ways.

Like, it's just like a Night of the Hunter style-

Joanna RobinsonHost9:00

Yes

... like this is evil incarnate.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:02

This is why you get Robert Mitchum to do this-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost9:04

... right? Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:05

So in '91, Scorsese's like, "Let's complicate it a little bit."

Mm.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:09

Okay? So in his version, Nick Nolte's character of Sam Bowden has buried some evidence-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost9:16

...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:16

in the case.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:17

He believes Max Cady did the crime.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:19

We believe Max Cady did the crime.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:20

We believe that ultimately justice was served in sending Max Cady to prison.

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:25

But is De Niro's version of that character right when he's like, "Hey, did you bury some evidence in my case, attorney?"

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:33

Um, so-

Look who's saying Max Cady has some points now.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:36

Oh, I'm saying-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost9:36

...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:36

Scorsese was like, "Wouldn't it be interesting if Max Cady studied the law?"

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:41

And he is actually the one who's like, "Here's the letter of the law."

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:44

And Nick Nolte's attorney character is like, "I'm bending the law slightly to serve this greater idea of justice." Also, Nick Nolte's character in that version of the film, uh, is a philanderer.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:56

You know what I mean? Like, has these various flaws.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:59

He is not a Gregory Peck type.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:01

He is like a...

Joanna RobinsonHost10:02

You know, he's a, a husband and a dad, but they had to leave town because he fucked too many women and, like, you know, he's got a, a relationship of a sort with Illeana Douglas and all this sort of stuff going on.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:13

So that's the slightly different thing.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:15

Now we get to this version of Cape Fear where, as you pointed out, Max Cady is not released because he served his sentence.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:22

He's released because he is exonerated.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:25

Um, there is some question...

Joanna RobinsonHost10:28

I don't have any questions about this, but the TV show is asking some questions about whether or not Max Cady actually did the crime.

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:35

Um, I think he did.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:37

I think there's evidence inside of these episodes that he did, but you know.

I suspect he did.

But I, I think the thing that plays, whether you're talking about the '50s or the '60s or the '90s or today-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:45

Yeah

...

even, you know, you're updating, you're modernizing, you're changing the framing-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:48

Yeah

...

but that, like, core idea of the plausible deniability of-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:52

Sure

... of like I'm just, I'm just around.

I just happen-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:54

Oh, yes

... to be in the neighborhood.

I'm just like, "I'm an innocent bystander.

I have this airtight alibi." And it turns the core attorney characters into this, like, position of what if I can see the thing that no one else can see-

Joanna RobinsonHost11:05

Right

... and no one believes me?

Joanna RobinsonHost11:06

And the law...

Joanna RobinsonHost11:08

There's a limit to what the law can do for me.

Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:10

And so what, what do I do when the, when the structures that I believe in fail me? And, and that's what's so fun about De Niro's Max Cady especially is because he has studied the law, he's like, "Oh, I'm not on your property."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:21

"Oh, I'm..." You know, like, he's using the law to get away with-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost11:25

... all the shit that he gets away with, right? Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:27

So in this version, we have, uh, no Sam Bowden.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:31

It's Anna and Tom Bowden.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:33

Uh, two attorneys, and as you alluded to, she was his defense attorney.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:38

He was the prosecutor.

It's messed up.

It's bad.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:41

It is fucked up.

The optics are bad.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:43

Very bad.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:44

So we've got, um...

Joanna RobinsonHost11:45

You know, I, I was talking to you a bit about this last week where I was wondering if... 'Cause I could tell that they had made Amy Adams into sort of like she was the defense attorney-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost11:54

... which is the role that these other Sam Bowdens have played.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:58

But I was like, "So is Patrick Wilson just gonna be the, the, like, the Jessica Lange-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost12:01

... interior designer husband or whatever it is that she..." She's an artist.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:04

I don't know, whatever it is she does.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:06

Um, uh, no, they're both attorneys.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:08

So they sort of split the role across these two characters.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:11

Patrick Wilson and Amy Adams are here, but they have this, like-You know, they, they look around.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:17

Do you ever think we don't deserve this? They have this, like, picture perfect home.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:20

They've got a fucked up kid or two.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:23

They've got a lot of s- they've got so many secrets

It's so...

I mean, it's almost like the glitching picture frame is a metaphor-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:29

What?

... for the mirage of their suburban existence.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:32

What is a metaphor...

Joanna RobinsonHost12:33

What is the storm a metaphor for? [laughs]

Clunky writing, unfortunately.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost12:37

[laughs]

That, that one was tough.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:40

Um, okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:41

So we've got, uh, lawyers who have, you know, f- at least had, like fucked each other during the case, probably got married afterwards.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:50

What was the deal? They, they say this very ominous thing in, in episode two that their daughter overhears, which is like, "We had to do the thing that we did."

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:57

"What was it? We don't know yet because there are so many mysterious questions." And we're gonna run down all of the open questions because they have stretched...

Joanna RobinsonHost13:05

You know, Nick Antosca has decided to stretch this story from a two-hour-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost13:11

... cinema masterpiece, trashterpiece, into a 10-episode television series, and this is the thing I'm most worried about.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:18

And honestly, Javier Bardem sounded a little bit worried about it because in a, an interview with Entertainment Weekly they're like, "What's the th- the thing you were sort of, like most-"

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost13:27

... anxious about?" He was like, "People getting bored." [laughs]

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:30

This is 10 episodes with Max Cady.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:33

It's not a two-hour jaunt around, you know, the South with Max Cady.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:38

You are spending 10 hours with him, so how can I add shading and nuance and whatever to him? Is he still this sort of elemental evil character that Robert Mitchum and Robert De Niro have played?

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:50

Yes, but, like, does he have...

Joanna RobinsonHost13:53

You know, the De Niro version has a, a charm to him.

Certainly.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:00

But this version is even smoother.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:03

And ev- in terms of, like, who he is seducing and who he is fooling, it's a much wider swath.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:10

I really loved the scene in episode two when he's touring the house and he's talking to the real estate, uh, the realtor, whoever, uh, he's talking to.

Well, he knows how to wear a linen suit, that's for sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:21

Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:22

But he's like...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:22

And that's the thing is, like unlike...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:24

Well, I would say Mitchum's Max Cady blends, but unlike De Niro, he blends.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:28

Right? De Niro's wearing, like loud, uh, shirts, and has, like a bikini girl lighter and is as, like crass as crass can be, and this is not the, the smoothie Max Cady that we're getting here.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:41

But the way that he, like, goes off on his rant about whatever and he's like, "Oh, but that's not the world you live in, my dear."

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost14:47

Like, "I will get you the information you want."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:48

And it's just sort of like he's unsettling, but like-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost14:52

... you understand why these various characters, perhaps most frustratingly CCH Pounder's character-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost14:58

... are taken in and sort of enamored by him.

I think this is the smartest of the adaptive choices we've seen so far.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:04

Yeah.

Some of it we're gonna have to see how it pays off, like where it goes, what the secrets are within-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:08

Mm-hmm

... you know, the two lawyers and their marriage and all that.

The choice to kind of cloak-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:13

Yeah

...

Max Cady in the fight for social justice I think is a really-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:16

Yeah

... smart decision.

And just the idea of, like what does it mean when someone is released from prison in 2026 because they were seemingly wrongfully imprisoned? And like how-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:25

Right

... how do people treat him? What does he get pulled into? And I think structurally if you're trying to make a TV show, you need ways that he and Anna can be in the same spaces.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:35

Yes.

Logically.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:36

Right.

Without her wanting to call the police at all times.

And so him becoming, like whether by accident or by crook, like almost the face of her organization I think is just, like a really smart way to integrate this really menacing element into her world.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:49

And I think to start with in episode one at the gala when she is talking about the, uh, flaws inside the justice system.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:56

So she's already starting from a place of the just- like, my whole life's work is to talk about how flawed the justice system is.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:03

And so but where does the rubber meet the road-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost16:05

...

Joanna RobinsonHost16:05

in terms of those values when it comes to someone like Max Cady? And she's like, "No, but I know that he is, uh, you know, evil.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:12

I know this to be true." And that's different from your Gregory Peck's who's like, "I believe in the law.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:18

I believe in law and order."

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:19

And when, like various people are like, "We could do this shady thing," he's like, "No, we have to go by the letter of the law." In, in episode one, um, we meet this sort of investigator character who works for, um, Anna's organization, who's played by The Wire's Jamie Hector.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:36

Ray Rollins, and she introduces him.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:38

She's like, "Here's Ray Rollins.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:39

He does what the cops can't or won't do." You know, we are- we already work outside the law.

They gotta go around the boundaries, for sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:45

That's what we do.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:46

You know? I, I think all of that is interesting.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:47

I do.

And even, like when the two interns meet, at that point they're introducing, I believe his name's Byron.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:52

Yes, yes.

The other guy who they have recently helped get released from prison-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:54

Yeah

... who ends up mysteriously killed or dead.

Um, and the-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:57

Mysteriously?

Well, I mean, there were gunshots, there was fighting.

I think we have an inkling as to what goes on.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:02

[laughs]

But again, plausible deniability all around.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:05

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:05

He has an airtight alibi.

But the two interns who come to meet him are like, like, "Oh, I..." talking about his lived experience and, like-

Joanna RobinsonHost17:11

Yeah

...

the broken system.

It's like all of this language that we use today to try to understand those broken systems-

Joanna RobinsonHost17:17

Yeah

... is, like being weaponized against presumably Anna and Tom as they try to protect their family and understand what kind of risk they're really in.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:24

I think another needle here is when Ted Levine as, as Anna's, uh, father shows up, and, um, Brandon Devereux.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:34

Oh, by the way, we're in Savannah.

Gotta be Devereux's involved.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:38

And Toussaint.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:39

Uh, that's CCH Pounder's l- uh, is Noah Toussaint.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:42

So you've got Toussaints and Devereuxs.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:43

Like we're living, we're thriving.

Where was Blanche Devereaux from? Was she, was she from Savannah?

Joanna RobinsonHost17:48

She's from J- uh, Georgia, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:50

For sure.

It's gotta be.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:50

Yeah.

We, we have to do some deeper Golden Girls research.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:52

Big Daddy.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:52

[laughs]

Try to tie the, the narrative.

Oh, my God, is one of these characters Big Daddy?

Joanna RobinsonHost17:57

Great question.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:58

Um, but I think that, um, I think having her father show up and call Tom and Anna country club liberals-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost18:05

... is another sort of, like, uh, brick in the building we're, we're creating here.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:10

Um, also in terms of the anxieties that Nick Antosca's like, "Okay, here, what are the specific anxieties of the 1960s, of the 1990s-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost18:19

... and, and the nows?" And, and what, what he's clearly latched onto-For better or for worse is this tech anxiety right now

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost18:26

So, um, you know, are there predators in your schools is a 1990s question that Martin Scorsese's asking, right?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:34

Um, is someone catfishing your teenage...

Joanna RobinsonHost18:38

I- you know, [laughs] is a man you sent to prison catfishing your teenage son? Is your security system, has it already been hacked?

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:47

You know, all of these tech ways that...

Joanna RobinsonHost18:50

You know, the idea that, like, De- De Niro's Max Cady went to, uh, prison and studied the law, and it feels like Javier Bardem's Max Cady went to prison to study tech.

I mean, I have many questions.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:01

[laughs]

If, if he is in, in fact responsible for everything we've seen so far.

I, I kind of wonder if the answer might be he is in some things, and other ones-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:08

Mm

... are coincidental, circumstantial.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:09

Some.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:09

I would say some.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:10

Most.

The one that I, like, is almost the biggest logical jump for me is, like, how did this man who's been in prison for 17 years become a very good, like, World of Warcraft player, to the point where he would bond with a teenager? Or do you even have to be-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:22

Don't you get to-

...

if you're smooth talking

Joanna RobinsonHost19:23

... don't you get to play video games in prison?

Th- they have WoW in there? They have subscription-based MMORPGs? I don't know, man.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:30

[laughs]

I...

Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Maybe prison has really changed.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:34

I don't, I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:35

I actually don't know the answer to that, but I feel like you have internet access in-

Sure

Joanna RobinsonHost19:39

...

Joanna RobinsonHost19:39

in, in prison, so who's to say?

Maybe that's all it takes.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:42

Great questions.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:43

Um, do you wanna do a mini nepo- nepo baby check-in for this show?

I think we simply have to for every show now.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:49

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:50

Joe Anders, who plays Zach Bowden-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost19:52

... their son, that is the son of Kate Winslet and, um-

Wow

Joanna RobinsonHost19:57

... yeah, so and Sam Mendes.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:59

Right.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:59

Yeah, so that's, uh, that's one.

That's one.

Who else we got?

Joanna RobinsonHost20:02

And then, uh, Anna Baryshnikov, uh, who plays the reporter-

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost20:06

... who, who is integral in the first two episodes-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost20:09

...

Joanna RobinsonHost20:09

Tabitha, is Mikael Baryshnikov's daughter.

Let's talk about this reporter for a second.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:13

Okay.

If I were reporting a story-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:15

Sure

... as I often have-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:16

Yeah

... and the person I was interviewing wound up with a family of dead skunks in their pool-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:20

Yeah

... that's the lead.

Like-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:22

I'm sure it was

... that is making the story.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:24

Yeah.

There's no like-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:25

That's-

...

this was off the record

Joanna RobinsonHost20:25

... that's the header photo.

Come on, the dead skunks?

Joanna RobinsonHost20:28

Yeah.

You got a cameraman there? [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost20:29

Yeah, yeah.

This is a dream assignment-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:31

Yeah

... all of a sudden.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:31

Absolutely.

Especially now that all this evidence is coming out, like this man's release from prison.

You're just sitting on the dead skunk lead.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:37

I do really appreciate that Anna Bowden, uh, is so media trained that she's, like, so careful about what's on the record-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost20:43

... what's off the record.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:44

She's like, "You didn't say it, so let's be clear, this is off the record."

Pretty, pretty well done by her.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:48

This was not in the brief.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:50

We said we were not talking about this-

Fair play

Joanna RobinsonHost20:51

...

Joanna RobinsonHost20:51

so we're not.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:52

And she was like poli- she's like, "I'm sure you didn't see it."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:54

I'm sure you did, bitch, but-

Again, plausible deniability all around

Joanna RobinsonHost20:57

... we're not talking about this.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:58

Um, so yeah, the... how does that tech anxiety play for you?

Uh, it's a little of both.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:03

Yeah.

I will say of all the characters we've had so far, Zach feels the shakiest as far as, like, his place within the story.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:10

Mm.

I think the part of it that is the online gaming catfishing, that part I'm all along the ride for.

Um, the idea that he has leaked these, like, presumably nudes of this girl to his group chat-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:21

Yeah

... that feels like something a show like this could explore and get into.

Its treatment, we can dissect.

It's, it's the, like, TikTok AI slop version of Max Cady's unborn son that he is now, I believe-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:34

Hallucinating

... hallucinating-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:35

Yeah

... walking about.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:36

Yeah.

When it was just the AI slop video, I was like, okay, this is, like, ghoulish, but honestly believable.

Uh, now that he's become a sentient walking hallucination-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:45

Well-

...

I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:47

M- so that leads into something else I wanna talk about, for sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:49

But I, I will say I watched episode one, then I watched episode two, like, much later.

Mm.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:54

And I had forgotten about the AI slop part.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:56

So when he hallucinated Max Cady's son, I was like, "Are we doing real ghosts here?"

[laughs] Maybe we are.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:00

"Is that what's happening?" And then I re-watched episode one and I was like, "Oh, no, he saw the AI slop version of him." But, um, Adam Cady, what Adam Cady would look like had he lived.

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:09

Um, I wanna talk about...

Joanna RobinsonHost22:12

So we've got this, this tech paranoia, right?

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:14

What if you're, you know...

Joanna RobinsonHost22:16

A- and Max Cady, the tattoos are interesting to me because De Niro very consciously made, wanted, you know, and he's talked about this, wanted to make sure all of the tattoos on his body were, you know, specific Biblical references.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:29

So the iconography and, you know, he's got, like, passages, long passages on his arms and stuff like that.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:35

With, uh, with this version of Max Cady, he's got the, the Grim Reaper, which is, uh, same-same as-

Quite well done

Joanna RobinsonHost22:42

... as De Niro's, uh-

Who- whoever did the ink-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:44

Yeah, but the eyes everywhere.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:46

And so in terms of this, like, tech surveil- like...

Joanna RobinsonHost22:49

Or is there another spiritual-

Sure

Joanna RobinsonHost22:51

... uh, meaning to that? And that brings me into what I wanna say, which is, like, alongside this, this, uh, Max Cady tech genius aspect is, like, Max Cady, like, voodoo practitioner.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:05

Okay, because in both, um, the mistress who shoots herself in the head twice while listening to The Cranberries, uh, in the opener-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost23:15

... and in the possum-infested den where Zach ingested his own toe at one point or was forced to bite his own toe.

I mean, maybe the possum was doing the witchcraft.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:26

There's, like, bowls and seeds and-

Candles and-

Joanna RobinsonHost23:30

... and nuts and stuff like that, and it's just like it's meant to invoke some sort of, like-

It could just be an acai bowl.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:36

Absolutely not.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:37

[laughs]

[laughs] You don't think so?

Joanna RobinsonHost23:39

It's meant to invoke, like, witchcraft sometimes.

Add some yogurt and you got something going.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:42

So, like, is Max Cady, in addition to, like, hacking your-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost23:46

... security system, also casting spells? Is that what's happening?

I don't know.

Um, I would say we get two very distinct impressions of him over the course of these episodes.

One, particularly with the cold open of episode two, the physical threat of who he is-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:01

Yes

... is made very clear, right? This is not a man who you're just gonna see looming in the shadows.

Like, he fucks up these Nazis-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:07

Yeah

... who try to jump him.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:08

And we love it.

W- look, we, we do love to see that part.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:11

[laughs]

And honestly, I do think escalating both what we see Max being capable of in terms of his physical strength and, like, ability to hurt someone-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:19

Yeah

...

but also what the show is willing to show us.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:21

Right.

Like, a Nazi gets his head impaled on a bench press bar.

Another one gets a kettlebell to the knee.

And, and then we see Zach, like, with the d- I mean, it's just-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:29

Vomiting his toe

... we, we just put Euphoria to bed, and here we are again with dis- like, severed toes and Nazis.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:35

But-

Can we not escape?

Joanna RobinsonHost24:37

However, Rob-Nick Antosca, did you look at his credits?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:41

So he did the Act and Candy.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:43

Like, the two big things that he's done is the Act and Candy b- both true crime adaptations for Hulu, I believe.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:48

Um, well received, whatever.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:50

He was a writer on Hannibal.

He was.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:52

So people-

Most notably for season three, I believe

Joanna RobinsonHost24:54

... people are eating toes? Is this not back in your Hannibal, uh, pocket?

It's not a prime cut.

[laughs] You know? It's, it's not your, it's not your first choice, I wouldn't think.

If you have a discerning palate-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:04

Dr. Lecter would never

... no. That's what you...

You know, that's for, like, the sausaging, you know? [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost25:08

Think of it as a baby carrot.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:09

[laughs]

On...

Okay, I'm, I'm glad you brought up the baby carrot.

We're trying to figure out how we wanna cover this show, if it's gonna be something we do week to week.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We don't really know.

Email us, comment wherever you're watching this.

Let us know if this is something you wanna keep up with week to week.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:21

Yeah.

PrestigeTV@spotify.com. Regardless-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:24

Regardless

...

I would like for us to create an email for this show as we return to it.

ThinkOfABabyCarrot@gmail.com is right there for us.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:32

What are your other options, Rob?

BabyBirdTheSpliff@gmail.com.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:37

Okay.

PossumWitch@gmail.com.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:40

[laughs]

Or PossumBasedWitchcraft@gmail.com. BackyardCougar, FishingForSkunks, TheSystemOfFuckYou, or DippedInHandsome.

How do you feel about any of those?

Joanna RobinsonHost25:49

DippedInHandsome was such a good phrase.

Incredibly descriptive-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:52

I-

... of Patrick Wilson in particular

Joanna RobinsonHost25:54

... very, very, uh, key.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:56

I wrote that down both times I watched the episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:58

Um, I think it's gotta be ThinkOfABabyCarrot.

Let's, let's do a quick double check.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:02

Okay.

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Joanna RobinsonHost28:13

Okay, so through the magic of editing-

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost28:15

... and perhaps Cameron, who's editing this podcast, can put it down here at the bottom, ThinkOfABabyCarrot@gmail.com is how you can reach us.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:23

Let us know.

I'm very happy about it, and also was very upset at that line of dialogue.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:26

[laughs] I love a baby carrot.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:28

Um-

Do you still?

Joanna RobinsonHost28:31

It's the jar for me.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:34

Zach I'm not a fan of.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:35

There sh- I should say, uh, this is...

Joanna RobinsonHost28:38

There is a son character in the book.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:41

There has been no son character in the two movies.

There has not.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:43

So we're, we're adding back end people.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:45

Let's, let's, let's go through character by character-

Okay

Joanna RobinsonHost28:49

... and talk about all the mysteries and questions we have around these characters.

There are so many.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:54

Let's start with Max Cady himself, Javier Bardem.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:59

Blue contacts, why?

They're very unsettling.

I honestly think this is part of it.

Like, th- this character needs to have kind of an uncanny thing to him.

Joanna RobinsonHost29:08

Mm.

And if he's gonna be a little smoother in terms of his working with people, our familiarity with Javier Bardem being, like, turned against us by, like, there's just something off looking at him I honestly think is part of the package.

Joanna RobinsonHost29:20

I also wonder if this is meant to match Amy Adams' eyes.

Could be.

Joanna RobinsonHost29:23

Uh, which are...

Joanna RobinsonHost29:24

The way the, the color grading is working on this show, they're, like, ultramarine.