Aug 5, 2026 · 38 min · 10 segments
What does it really mean to learn Torah lishma, for its own sake? Is Torah learning primarily about acquiring knowledge, refining character, understanding God's will, sustaining the world, or…
Yitzchok AdlersteinHostSimi LernerHostBut it's a good point, and it's an interesting question, especially when we focus around the classical way that the Gemara in, I think it's Psachim or Sanhedrin, where it discusses the idea of tarma, the Shema, and the idea that you engage not the Shema to arrive at the Shema, and somehow the Shema is the pinnacle of what we're sort of striving for as individuals, of trying to achieve while we're engaging in tarma Torah.
And one of our listeners messaged me and said, well, what relationship does that have on your character? Is it supposed to be something that manifests itself in the world in a certain way? Or is that not actually necessary? And the problem of...
definitions of what is the value of Talmud Torah because from a philosophical standpoint if you're asking what does it mean to do something for its own sake it's a bizarre thing to ask in a way because if you try and do something for its own sake the trying to do it for its own sake what do you end up doing? What are you supposed to focus on? Because if the minute you focus on something, that becomes the new aim.
So doing something for its own sake is a strange desire or a strange claim or a strange intention to have when you go across a subject.
Nobody says do this for its own sake because they normally say do it for the sake of, and then you have some sort of instrumental gain that comes from it.
And whenever you go through the Rishaynim, the Achaynim, it's also a good indicator of where they stand on what they think the purpose of human life is.
Because the point of Lishma is sort of like a... ending of value of like the ultimate value like you're doing it for its own sake the minute you define that you're saying almost it's the highest value so when you have a individual articulate what he thinks lishma is across the spectrum of the jewish tradition That's going to be a mirror to what they think the goal of life is, what they think the goal of humanity is in relationship to God.
So it's on one side a really difficult, tricky, thorny topic, because how do you aim at its own sake without that becoming the new aim? And also, the varies of opinions that are going to manifest themselves are going to be really out there, depending on which lens you choose.
But when we give an answer to what we think Lishmoy is, and I'm sure we both have our visions, it's got to make sense to, on the one side, the person working his way through the concise, The other person, who, when I'm sitting in the Beit Midrash near my house, when I hear people going through the work of the Eitzchai and the work of Rav Chaim Vital, student of the Arizal, and they're structuring out the parts of him together, and they're talking about the most authentic way of achieving tikkun, that might leave me spiritually cold.
We're not going to do a full review of Rabbi Lamb's book of Torah Lashma, and Nefesh HaChaim is either praised to the rafters or criticized.
for coming up with a definition of Torah Lashma that seems to have been somewhat of a tradition, somewhat new.
But it's a good point, and it's an interesting question, especially when we focus around the classical way that the Gemara in, I think it's Psachim or Sanhedrin, where it discusses the idea of tarma, the Shema, and the idea that you engage not the Shema to arrive at the Shema, and somehow the Shema is the pinnacle of what we're sort of striving for as individuals, of trying to achieve while we're engaging in tarma Torah.
And one of our listeners messaged me and said, well, what relationship does that have on your character? Is it supposed to be something that manifests itself in the world in a certain way? Or is that not actually necessary? And the problem of...
definitions of what is the value of Talmud Torah because from a philosophical standpoint if you're asking what does it mean to do something for its own sake it's a bizarre thing to ask in a way because if you try and do something for its own sake the trying to do it for its own sake what do you end up doing? What are you supposed to focus on? Because if the minute you focus on something, that becomes the new aim.
So doing something for its own sake is a strange desire or a strange claim or a strange intention to have when you go across a subject.
Nobody says do this for its own sake because they normally say do it for the sake of, and then you have some sort of instrumental gain that comes from it.
And whenever you go through the Rishaynim, the Achaynim, it's also a good indicator of where they stand on what they think the purpose of human life is.
Because the point of Lishma is sort of like a... ending of value of like the ultimate value like you're doing it for its own sake the minute you define that you're saying almost it's the highest value so when you have a individual articulate what he thinks lishma is across the spectrum of the jewish tradition That's going to be a mirror to what they think the goal of life is, what they think the goal of humanity is in relationship to God.
So it's on one side a really difficult, tricky, thorny topic, because how do you aim at its own sake without that becoming the new aim? And also, the varies of opinions that are going to manifest themselves are going to be really out there, depending on which lens you choose.
But when we give an answer to what we think Lishmoy is, and I'm sure we both have our visions, it's got to make sense to, on the one side, the person working his way through the concise, The other person, who, when I'm sitting in the Beit Midrash near my house, when I hear people going through the work of the Eitzchai and the work of Rav Chaim Vital, student of the Arizal, and they're structuring out the parts of him together, and they're talking about the most authentic way of achieving tikkun, that might leave me spiritually cold.
We're not going to do a full review of Rabbi Lamb's book of Torah Lashma, and Nefesh HaChaim is either praised to the rafters or criticized.
for coming up with a definition of Torah Lashma that seems to have been somewhat of a tradition, somewhat new.
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