‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 8: Stalking Season

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Joanna RobinsonHost0:34

Hello.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:34

Welcome back to the Prestige TV Podcast Feed.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:36

I'm Joyida Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:38

It is episode eight of Widow's Bay.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:41

Your baggage.

Mine?

Joanna RobinsonHost0:43

Ours.

Definitely.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:45

I did think it was interesting that last week's episode was titled Our History, and this week's episode is titled Your Baggage.

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:51

Um, who's unpacking baggage in this episode? Patricia, certainly.

Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:55

The boogeyman history.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:57

Uh-

Tom, Evan

Joanna RobinsonHost0:58

...

Joanna RobinsonHost0:58

Tom and Evan, for sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:00

What's in the basement, we have yet to find out.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:03

And, uh, and Wick- last week was more of Wick's unpacking of baggage, but you know, we got a little dip into the Jerry baggage, uh, pool.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:13

Uh, so it's a-

He wanted to unpack some baggage and then, you know, just had to eject from that whole situation.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:17

I really loved that, like-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost1:19

... resolution to it, being like, "Yes." And then Wick and Jerry are finally...

Joanna RobinsonHost1:23

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:24

Oh, no.

She has a fella.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:25

She has a fella.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:25

He seems very nice.

He seems very nice.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:27

And he's like, "Wick, you old dog." [laughs]

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost1:29

That's really good.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:30

Okay.

Also the second dustpan gag of the season.

We're thriving.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:34

Oh, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:34

Do you think, like, the comedy of threes, we're gonna get a third before everything's done?

We simply have to.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:38

Okay.

The sea hag will emerge from the water, clean something up very quickly, dust it off.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:42

Uh, they didn't dustpan up the rema- the cremains of, uh, the boogeyman.

There is still time.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:48

But perhaps they should.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:49

Cremains, a word I learned-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost1:50

... from podcasting with you.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:51

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:52

This episode is directed by Andrew de Young, written by Emma Ketcham, uh, a writer who we could not find other writing credits for.

No.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:01

We have some questions.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:03

If you or anyone you know know Emma Ketcham and, and have some things to say about her-

If you are Emma Ketcham

Joanna RobinsonHost2:08

...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:08

Prestige TV is follow...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:09

Emma, prestigetv@spotify.com. We loved your ep- I loved your episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:13

Rob, did you love this episode?

I really loved it.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:14

Yeah.

I mean, look, I love Patricia.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:16

Hmm.

I love Halloween.

Therefore, I love this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:19

Halloween the holiday or Halloween the film franchise?

I'm so glad you asked.

The film franchise.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:24

[laughs]

Distinctly not the holiday.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:26

Yeah, you're not really...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:27

No.

Not my vibe.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:27

No? Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:29

Are you a, like, stay at home, watch horror movies Halloween guy?

Yeah, that part's great.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:32

Yeah, yeah.

This year I'm actually...

I would love to go to the big Nightmare Before Christmas bash at the Hollywood Bowl.

That's my Halloween plan for this year-

Joanna RobinsonHost2:40

How sad are we-

... now as an LA resident

Joanna RobinsonHost2:42

... that we didn't get to see Catherine O'Hara-

Ah

Joanna RobinsonHost2:45

...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:45

while she was amongst us? Um-

Genuinely brutal.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:47

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:47

So the guy, and this is Rob.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:49

The, the guy I know, you Rob Mahoney-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost2:51

... dresses up as Leonardo DiCaprio-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost2:54

... for various Leonardo DiCaprio marathons, is anti the big Hall- the, like, the big dress-up holiday.

I just don't wanna be told what to do.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:01

Hmm.

You know? If it's a, if it's a fake holiday I've invented and I get to exercise on my own terms, great.

If it's like, oh, no, the institution of big Halloween wants you g- to go to the Spirit store-

Joanna RobinsonHost3:10

Oh, yeah, big Halloween.

I mean-

Joanna RobinsonHost3:12

Out to get you

... is, is it not? Is it not an industrial complex?

Joanna RobinsonHost3:15

It's a pagan holiday that has been-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost3:17

... appropriated by [laughs] capitalism.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:20

Put some respect on Samhain.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:22

All right.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:22

So mailbag.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:25

Several, so many, more than ever before people have emailed us, prestigetv@spotify.com, to say, and I quote, "The secret Warren is Evan, you dum-dums." That's not what anyone wrote, but essentially-

But more or less

Joanna RobinsonHost3:38

... essentially.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:39

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:39

So the secret Warren, uh, theory that we sort of entertained in last week's episode-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost3:44

... every single person on the internet is like, "We're way ahead of you dummies."

It's clearly Evan.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:48

It's obviously Evan.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:49

The...

Joanna RobinsonHost3:49

We got some other possibilities.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:51

A couple people were like, "What if it's Wick?" Uh, we got a compelling Ruth theory that I quite liked, which, uh, I could talk about in a second.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:58

But overwhelmingly, people think it's Evan, and I really have to agree because narratively-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost4:04

...

Joanna RobinsonHost4:04

this is by far the most interesting choice.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:06

If Evan...

Joanna RobinsonHost4:06

If Tom's son, Evan Loftus, is the person that needs to die in order for the curse to be broken, and Tom, who if, you know...

Joanna RobinsonHost4:18

A- as you mentioned last week, if you go back and re-watch episodes previously, uh, in the season, little lines take on different meaning.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:27

So the fact that Tom in almost every single episode has said, "Where's Evan? Is Evan okay? How's Evan do..."

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:35

Like, constantly tracking his teenage son, which the parents of Stranger Things could take some notes, 'cause often they forget they have children for episodes at a time, right? So Tom never dropped the ball on this.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:45

I mean, he might not always have his eye on Evan, but he is always wondering, "Where is Evan? Is he okay?" So is Evan okay being the, like, big question of the season possibly is narratively incredibly interesting and juicy.

It makes a lot of sense.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:02

Mm-hmm.

And I personally love a, as somebody who, like, I will go to bed every day for the rest of my life for the video game Life is Strange, a, like, person you love or the town-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:11

Mm-hmm

... critical choice, right in my wheelhouse, right in my zone.

So I am, I am excited if it goes that way.

I will say a couple things.

One, I think it could also be very narratively juicy if it was someone that Tom cares about who is not Evan.

And in ca- like-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:25

Who does Tom care about who's not Evan?

I think Patricia's the most sensible candidate-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:29

Okay

... as the most established character who feels closest to Tom, who we have spent the most time with, and then it's a choice of, like, not do you give up your son's life, which, like, who's gonna sacrifice their son for the sake of this town? I think that's a pretty-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:41

Um

... tough sell.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:42

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:42

Certainly not Abraham, I guess.

Certainly [laughs] perhaps not.

Uh, but if it's like, oh, if it's sacrificing somebody else for the sake of your son's freedom, that's a different kind of intellectual exercise that I could also see the show engaging in.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:57

Especially, I mean, the, the, the absoluteYou know, trauma of this episode where it, which opens with, "We did it.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:07

Everything's fine.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:08

The sun is shining."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:09

Tourists are enjoying their time.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:11

Tom is gonna take Evan not only to a Red Sox games, but also to, like, look at colleges.

I know.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:17

You, you...

Joanna RobinsonHost6:17

And Evan's, like, excited to get off island and go look at colleges.

[sighs]

Joanna RobinsonHost6:21

I really like Evan so much.

I do too.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:23

We've, we've gotten, we've, we've s- kind of said that all season, but we've gotten some emails from people being like, "Evan's a little shit.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:29

I don't really like him." I really disagree.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:31

Like, I thought especially in this episode, the reveal, dramatic reveal in the mirror, like, "Hello, Tom," or whatever.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost6:36

It was, like, really funny.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:38

But, like, Evan's anger-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost6:40

... at having the truth hidden from him, but his, you know, bewilderment and sorrow over these incredibly confusing and upsetting letters written by his mother, um, and all that information.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:54

And it ending not with, like, "I hate you, fuck you," like anything like that, but just, you know, when Tom says, "Because it would make me sadder than I already am."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:03

Like, I just thought that was, like, incredibly lovely and, like, I think the two of them have...

Joanna RobinsonHost7:08

Yes, it's a teenage boy and his dad, but they have, like, kind of a really lovely relationship also.

Truly.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:14

Yeah.

I mean, their relationship is gonna be critical to the endgame in one way or another regard- whoever the secret Warren or Warrens end up being.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:21

Hmm.

And frankly, that's my larger point-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:23

Ooh

... with all this stuff is-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:24

Are we crawling with Warrens?

Well, we are...

This is a very small island, and anyone born on the island cannot leave, we're told and we assume at this point, without dying.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:33

Right.

Are there not lots of secret Warrens?

Joanna RobinsonHost7:36

Great question.

Very small gene pool here on Widow's Bay.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:39

I think it's more narratively interesting if there is but one-

Sure

Joanna RobinsonHost7:42

... secret Warren.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:43

Um, but-

Because the Boogeyman has been going around killing all the other-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:47

Other Warrens?

... secret Warrens.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:48

Ooh.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:49

Okay.

I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:50

On the secret Warren, it's Evan, you dummies-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost7:54

... uh, front, we've got the whole brooch angle.

Oh, we're on brooch watch.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:58

Uh, brooch watch 2026.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:00

Also brooch spelling watch 2026.

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:03

Reddit, the Widow's Bay subreddit is aflame because a lot of people think you spell brooch as in brooch the subject.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:10

But it's a double O, brooch.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:13

Um, this has caused a lot of arguments.

So you're here to brooch the etymology of brooch.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:17

Merriam-Webster says you can do it either way, honestly.

Really?

Joanna RobinsonHost8:20

So that's interesting to know.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:21

Anyway, the brooch that we see-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost8:24

...

Joanna RobinsonHost8:24

Sarah Warren, as played by the great, the legend Betty Gilpin-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost8:28

... give to Frances Warren, the youngest girl who seems to be the per- the child in the painting.

The only child she acknowledged.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:36

Uh, gives her the brooch to put on her doll.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:39

The brooch is not amongst the children's belongings in the museum.

Indeed.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:44

The brooch does show up in episode five in a painting that Tom is looking at when he is tripping on the mushrooms.

Oh, wow.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:51

He's sitting in City Hall, uh, and he is looking at this painting of this, like, old man gripping the neck of a, a woman next to him.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:02

The woman has a missing finger, which young Frances Warren had a wagon wheel, had a missing finger due to a wagon wheel incident, and is wearing the brooch.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:09

So that is probably a grown-up Frances Warren with her terribly old husband.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:13

Um, seems like a lovely marriage-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost9:15

...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:15

the way he's gripping the back of her neck.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:17

[laughs]

You know what? Don't judge them.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:19

Anyway, where did that brooch go?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:21

Eagle-eyed viewers have noted that when Evan op- I had to, like...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:26

I was like, "What the hell are you guys talking about?"

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:28

I had to, like, really scour through the footage.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:30

When Evan and that racy off-island girl, Kelly, [laughs] opened the black metal box that was in, uh...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:37

It's boxes, in boxes, in boxes.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:39

The black metal box is in the trunk in Tom's room.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:42

Inside of that, there's a little...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:44

You could...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:44

It's a, it's a, it's, like, a cardboard jewelry box.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:48

It's not like a velvet one, but, like, if you got earrings from this, like a store and they came in a cardboard-

From Claire's.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:53

Mm, a little nicer than Claire's-

Okay

Joanna RobinsonHost9:55

...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:55

I will say.

Above costume jewelry.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:58

Uh, could it contain a brooch? Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:00

It could contain any j- it does look quite, like, jewelry box-ish to me.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:04

But it could contain any number of-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost10:07

... jewelry items, but it is in there with the letters and the photos.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:09

It's on the bottom right if you wanna go back and look at it.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:12

So is that brooch, uh, something that, uh, you know, Lauren Loftus, Tom's wife, uh, had and left, i- is left behind with these-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost10:24

... other collectible items?

It sure feels like it.

It just feels like that's where we're headed, and there's even the seeds in terms of the letters that Evan is reading, the one about, like, everyone has two mothers.

Your mother-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:34

Secret mother

... and your secret mother.

There's just, just enough allusion and dancing around the idea that Lauren, and therefore Evan, would be of the Warren bloodline, and therefore, for, for the purposes of this curse, in, in real, deep danger.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:48

Uh, our listener Kat, I believe it was, wrote in, uh, in terms of it being Frances Warren being the child that survives-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost10:56

... she, uh, Kat was like, "It's important that it's a, you know, female descendant because then no one is gonna be named Warren, right?"

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:02

Whoever Frances Warren, that old man who's gripping her neck, whoever she married, the, the Warren name is, is gone-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost11:09

... out of the equation.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:10

Um, and then-

So what I'm hearing is for the purposes of mystery, patriarchy good?

Joanna RobinsonHost11:16

We love the patriarchy here.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost11:18

Uh, but also a- as far as Patricia goes, believe women-

Hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost11:22

...

Joanna RobinsonHost11:22

when they say the Boogeyman is back.

But what about when they say the Boogeyman called them?

Joanna RobinsonHost11:26

What about if they say, "I need your little baby hands to reach up my nose to take the scorpion out"? It's complicated.

I mean, you can believe that.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:32

[laughs]

I just wouldn't do it.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:34

Kat, uh, our listener Kat says, this is...

Joanna RobinsonHost11:37

Kat's like, "My bet is that it's Ruth.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:39

I think it explains why she's so tired and needs to frequently leave the office all the time.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:42

Communing with the d- communing with the devil takes a lot of PTO."

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost11:45

Great.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:46

Great stuff from Kat.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:47

Um, okay, on the Boogeyman front-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost11:50

... um, you know, in terms of, like, who has been sacrificing people to the island to keep the island appeased all this while-Our listener Robert says, "What if the Boogeyman's victims were actually classic virgin sacrifices to the, to quiet the island? Just instead of throwing them into a volcano, he baked them in a dryer.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:07

This would turn that monster into not a hero exactly, but at least someone trying to combat the island's curse, and that would be a fun trope inversion that seems like this show would have fun with."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:16

Thoughts about that, about the Boogeyman being a, an island protector of some kind?

I loved that email.

I did think it was maybe slightly challenged if not debunked by this episode in which the Boogeyman is, like, just straight Michael Myers as far as we know, but I'm, I also don't know Patricia's full sexual history.

Um, is it possible that she has gotten to this age and is...

Are we, do we need to interrogate-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:38

This is-

...

the virginity of characters? [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost12:38

This is Lexi all over, Lexi on Euphoria all over again.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:41

I don't wanna talk about it.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:42

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:42

Um, our listener Jeff, uh, wrote in to say in the previous episode when they mention the hospital you can drive by but not slow down-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost12:52

...

Joanna RobinsonHost12:52

Jeff said that place might contain Tom's wife in my opinion.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:57

Uh, since we were already hit with the, quote, "haunted large building" note with the hotel, I don't think they'll just repeat that.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:03

I think it's an active sanitarium with a clearly rough re- reputation.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:06

Wife/mom is in there.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:08

Um, I...

Joanna RobinsonHost13:09

The way that Tom was talking about it, it does not seem like it is currently active.

No.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:12

But I would not be surprised if that is where, uh, his wife was, uh, you know, before she passed away.

Completely tracks.

I also thought that moment in Tom and Evan's conversation where Tom, like, reflexively pushes back on the idea that it was an institution-

Joanna RobinsonHost13:28

Right

... that it was an asylum, and then has to, like-

Joanna RobinsonHost13:30

Say that it was

... accept and say it out loud.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:33

Yeah.

I...

Just so many great acting moments from Matthew Rhys within this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:36

I really agree.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:37

Some listeners and commenters were pushing back on my assessment that when Sarah says in the previous episode, "I am but four and 10-"

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost13:46

... that it, that that means 40 instead of 14.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:49

Y- you're wrong.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:50

[laughs]

[laughs] Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:51

It's four and 20 blackbirds baked in a pie.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:54

Like, that's 24.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:55

Like, it, that's the construction.

That's the whole thing.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:56

That's the construction.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:57

So I do not...

Joanna RobinsonHost13:58

I think that's the whole joke.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:00

A lot of people were like, "She doesn't look 14," and I'm like, that's-

That's the bit

Joanna RobinsonHost14:02

... that's the bit.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:03

That's the joke.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:04

Uh, it, speaking of wrong, I was wrong.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:06

[laughs]

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost14:07

I just needed to get that small win in there before I said-

24 crows for you to eat on this one-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:11

Yeah, yeah, here we go

... unfortunately.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:12

Uh, my PJ Glanville theory, uh, is bullshit because that is not the same actor.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:17

I have, uh, blonde teenage blindness, and I apologize.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:22

I did not do my due diligence.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:23

I really do think that previously I've been treating Widow's Bay as, like, a fun show that we really liked-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost14:30

... that I was just sort of like we're, we're going in on Euphoria, and then we're also doing Widow's Bay as a treat.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:35

My priorities have kind of flipped in the last, like, week-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost14:38

... or so, and I would say Widow's Bay is my, is my focus now.

What was the inflection point, do you think? Like, what fully switched that balance?

Joanna RobinsonHost14:45

Um, the quality of the show [laughs] was on the one hand-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost14:48

...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:48

but also just sort of, like, getting that PJ Glanville thing wrong just underlined to me that I was not taking this seriously, as seriously as I should as a theory show-

Sure

Joanna RobinsonHost14:58

... which it is, and I need to not be, like, flip with my theories, and let's just get into the closing credits and scour for names and get really clear on what we're talking about.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:07

So here I am coming correct on Widow's Bay.

Look, we, we have a commitment to accuracy and excellence on The Prestige TV Podcast.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:13

Sometimes.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:14

[laughs]

Most of the time.

I will say sometimes, some of that's, like, you have to learn from the show too as far as, like, okay, are the theories such a central part of the show? Is this a goofy horror show?

Joanna RobinsonHost15:24

It's a theory show.

But I think the seeds had been there that it was a theory show from the beginning, but it was certainly a matter of, like, okay, how, how seriously do we need to take every clue? How much do we need-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:32

Right

... to be looking for breadcrumbs around every corner, or is it just gonna be like, this episode is a fun romp in a haunted hotel, you know?

Joanna RobinsonHost15:38

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:38

But I think the, like, the ways in which we've been able to go back and, [clears throat] like, reexamine certain lines and this secret Warren business is-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost15:46

... like, which seems like it will be so integral to the end game here.

Completely.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:49

It's not over, right?

This is a meticulously constructed show, impressively so.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:54

Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:54

Our listener Patrick wrote in with a theory that, um, the, the, the hallucinatory experiences in the hotel episode-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost16:03

... uh, with not just Tom but with also Kurt the innkeeper locked in sort of the ca- the, the captain's room, the losing time, all that sort of stuff like that.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:12

When they go in and later say there's black mold on the walls, to me I thought that meant time had passed differently and, like, mold had grown on the walls.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:21

But, uh, Patrick is like, "Is that connected to the black mushroom?" Like, is the black mushroom-

Wow

Joanna RobinsonHost16:27

... and the black mold in the hotel sort of of a similar strain and, like, wherever there be-

Spooky black fungus

Joanna RobinsonHost16:34

... s- yeah, something to be concerned about.

I mean, once the black algae comes up, like, we're gonna be really in business.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:39

There's a whole subgenre of horror, uh, fiction writing that is, like, fungus based.

Is it because of our just, like, deep lack of understanding? Like, there's, there's a, there's a line at which we understand what the fungi are up to, and then there's a point at which scientists are like, "I'm gonna be honest, we don't know what they're doing or thinking."

Joanna RobinsonHost16:58

Somebody sent me...

Joanna RobinsonHost16:59

I have not...

Joanna RobinsonHost16:59

Okay, let me just be really clear.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:02

I've not done my journalistic-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost17:03

... due diligence and, like, sourced this article, but somebody sent me an article.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:07

I haven't read it yet, so I haven't read it yet.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:09

I'm not co-signing this.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:12

Uh, but people send me spooky mushrooms articles all the time because of The Last of Us.

Naturally.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:16

And so they sent me one that was about how, like, a mushroom, like, learned how to crawl via a robot body.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:22

Like, they put a mushroom in a robot and it learned to crawl, and I'm like, why are...

Joanna RobinsonHost17:26

If that's true-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost17:27

... again, that might be bullshit, why are we doing that?

Why are we training them?

Joanna RobinsonHost17:32

Why are we doing that?

They've evolved into weird parasitic excellence all on their own.

I don't wanna facilitate it.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:39

Scientists, why are we doing that? That's, like, sort of my-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost17:42

... my rallying cry of 2026.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:43

Okay, just a couple more things before we can get more seriously into this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:47

You were asking where the old Warren house was.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:49

We had a lot of people write in saying the historical society-

Naturally

Joanna RobinsonHost17:52

... is the old Warren house.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:54

But our listener Nicole noted that this, the historical society is, like, right across the street-From the restaurant

The Salty Whale.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:02

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:02

So, it's all, I mean, it's a small town.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:04

It's a small town, it's a small island.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:06

Here's my only bone to pick with this episode.

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:10

Patricia doesn't know that Michelle is very pregnant.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:13

Chelle is m- very pregnant.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:15

She doesn't know, where has Bashir's wife...

Joanna RobinsonHost18:18

Has she been in confinement, like, ye olde times? Nobody knows his wife is pregnant?

And if then, would you not ask a question after she's disappeared from public view-

Joanna RobinsonHost18:27

She's-

... for however many months

Joanna RobinsonHost18:29

...

Joanna RobinsonHost18:29

so pregnant, and n- there's one gas station.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:31

We don't all know that she's pregnant?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:33

That was my only question.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:35

Um, but Bashir being in the gas station being like, "I have to eat this here.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:38

My wife doesn't wanna smell it," I'm like, yeah, that's a pregnant lady, plus we saw.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:41

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:42

Um, a coup- a, a fun theory that's going around is that Abigail, who is the woman that Sarah knocked into the ocean with the oar-

Who was infected by the plague

Joanna RobinsonHost18:52

... is, is the sea hag herself.

I do love this.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:55

Fun.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:55

Uh, the actress is Vianne Cox, who, uh, as I mentioned, um, she's in You've Got Mail, Maisel.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:01

Like, she's been around for-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost19:02

... a, a gazillion years and, and it would be really fun-

I, I do believe the sea hag is played by a different actor.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:09

Ah, 1,000,000%-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost19:10

...

Joanna RobinsonHost19:10

I'm not PJ Glenn-villain this.

Just-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:12

I'm not saying that's the same actress

... look, we're just getting ahead of it.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:15

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:15

[laughs]

These are different actors.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:16

These are different actors.

That said, a lot of time has passed.

You know? Maybe you do a little recasting.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:20

Sometimes when you gotta hag it up, it gets a little different.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:23

Um, la- last not least, this is not an email, I'm just...

Joanna RobinsonHost19:26

I just wanna put this on the record.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:28

You have convinced me-

What have I done?

Joanna RobinsonHost19:31

... via friendship-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost19:32

... to go see the film Speed Racer.

I have, yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:34

By the time this episode drops, I will already have seen Speed Racer-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost19:38

... at The Egyptian here in Los Angeles.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:40

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:40

In exchange-

First of all, you're welcome

Joanna RobinsonHost19:42

...

Joanna RobinsonHost19:42

in exchange, you said you would watch Midnight Mass.

I did.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:46

So I'm just putting that on the microphone.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:48

You haven't watched it yet.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:48

I haven't watched Speed Racer yet.

This is a trade.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:50

But I will see Speed Racer-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost19:52

...

Joanna RobinsonHost19:52

when all the basketballing is done, and perhaps you have some more of your life back.

I think perhaps sooner.

We can at least start sooner.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:57

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:58

You will enjoy some Midnight Mass, and then you will understand why people are talking about Midnight Mass so much in relation to this show.

I can't wait.

Uh-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:06

You're gonna love it

... my only question for you is, is there, like, a runtime equivalency here? Like, do you need to watch Speed Racer five times?

Joanna RobinsonHost20:12

But the thing is, I don't think I'll like Speed Racer, and you know you'll love Midnight Mass.

I know for a fact you are gonna love Speed Racer.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:19

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:20

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Joanna RobinsonHost21:46

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:47

Quick timeline for Widow's Bay.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:49

Just some, just some major-

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost21:50

... events that have happened that I just wanna run through.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:54

So in the, in 1702, and I, and I shout out the Widow's Bay subreddit, which is just thriving.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:59

I got this off the subreddit, okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:00

In the year 1702, a plague reaches the island.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:03

In the same year, founding father Richard Warren marries Sarah Westcott.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:07

He also carries a cindle- cylinder containing the heart of the plague affecting Widow's Bay.

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:12

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:12

1786, a deadly storm strikes Widow's Bay, forcing the residents to take shelter inside the church.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:17

Four days later, they turn to cannibalism.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:19

So 1702, and then 1786.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:22

1810, the SS Mary sets sail from Widow's Bay, but while returning to the island, the mayor orders the lighthouse to be shut down, coveting the captain's bride.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:30

The ship crashes, killing everyone on board.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:32

That's 1810.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:34

1846, the fog that stole the souls occurs.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:38

A supernatural fog engulfs the island, presumably carrying ghosts of the SS Mary sailors.

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:43

1873, SS Mary still featuring.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:45

A ghostly ship appears off the coast of Widow's Bay, the SS Mary, which had sunk 62 years earlier.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:50

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:51

Fast-forward, 1951.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:53

A serial killer clown terrorizes the Widow's Bay Inn.

Yep.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:57

Uh, 1962, a devastating New Year's Eve disaster strikes Widow's Bay.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:03

2000, a serial killer targets teenage girls in Widow's Bay, earning the nickname The Boogeyman.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:10

The year 2026, the fog returns.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:14

A sea hag emerges.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:16

General haggery-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost23:17

... ensues.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:19

Uh, again, this is quoting the subreddit, but I co-sign.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:22

Our queen Patricia gets tricked by a cursed book, throws a party, and nearly gets everyone drowned in the bay.

Accurate.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:27

The Boogeyman returns, and a storm's a-brewin'.

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:30

So, like, in terms of ca- calamitous things that have be- befallen Widow's Bay-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost23:37

...

Joanna RobinsonHost23:37

this is just, uh, like a, you know, a rapid acceleration-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost23:41

... of all the things are coming back, uh, here in the year 2026.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:45

A couple more incidents, uh, that, that we don't have years for.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:48

The witch burnings, we don't have quite a year for that.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:51

Uh, the captain from the inn who lost his mind.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:53

And then the ungrateful Hortense Fitzgerald [laughs] our, our most favorite incident.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:58

So that's, I mean, I, I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:59

It's just fun to think about.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:00

Not fun, ha-ha, but, like, it is fun to think about, you know, how many dates they've thrown at us.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:06

But we don't have a sort of like every 10 years or every five years or something like that.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:11

The island and its capricious, uh, thirst for blood and, and souls to devour-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost24:18

... doesn't seem to have a set schedule that we understand yet.

Well, it's when it gets hungry, the bell ringsAnd then you bring whichever body you would like to sacrifice down into the little chair dungeon, open up the panel, or maybe you don't even need to open the door.

Maybe it's gonna open the door.

You just leave whoever you want in the chair, be on your way, and you buy yourself eight to nine years of, of peaceful tranquility.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:38

In people scouring the items that are in the museum-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost24:42

...

Joanna RobinsonHost24:42

there is, like, a barbed wire thing that almost looks like a crown of thorns.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:47

Like, it's very Jesus-y in its, uh, construction.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:49

But right next to it is, like, a leather cuff that looks like perhaps it is a cuff that was once attached to said chair.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:56

So again, this is, like, an, like, a secret hiding in plain sight of, of this town.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:05

Who knows? Again, this is, this is the question we were asking ourselves last week.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:08

Who knows?

Genuinely terrifying.

But again, as you are laying out all these dates, all I'm hearing is there have been hundreds of years of war and propagation.

And there are, there have to be so many-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:17

War and

... more Warrens out there.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:18

I thought you said war and propagation.

[laughs] Well-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:20

But war and propagation, sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:22

Um, all right.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:22

So you-

It's a much longer novel

Joanna RobinsonHost25:23

...

Joanna RobinsonHost25:23

so you think we're just crawling with, with Warrens.

I think if this were true to the family tree, it would ha- this island would be riddled with Warrens.

Narratively, we're gonna have one to two Warrens.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:33

Let's circle back.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:34

I don't think it's physically possible for a novel to be longer than War and Peace.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:37

[laughs]

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost25:37

You tried to skate that by me and I don't think-

It's hard

Joanna RobinsonHost25:40

...

Joanna RobinsonHost25:40

I don't think it's true.

But war and propagation could be.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:42

I don't think so.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:43

[laughs] Is that just the Bible?

Honestly, yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:46

All right, uh, this episode, episode eight, we're finally getting to it.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:50

Rob, uh, given your enthusiasm for Orinoco Flow-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost25:56

... uh, which appeared earlier, uh, in our prestige experience this season...

Joanna RobinsonHost26:01

Industry, right?

It was Industry.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:02

Is when Enya came up.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:03

How did you feel about Caribbean Blue, Enya being here in this episode?

Ecstatic.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:07

Do you think Patricia is an Enya listener? Does that track for you?

Yes.

She owns Pure Moods.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:13

I love it.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:13

Um, do you think...

Joanna RobinsonHost26:15

How much did you...

Joanna RobinsonHost26:16

I mean, I'm so sorry that her order got fucked up-

Mm

Joanna RobinsonHost26:19

... and she doesn't wanna get anyone in trouble.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:20

She just wants them to, like, maybe learn from the experience.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:24

Patricia, satisfied with her work, she helped save the island she thinks.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:30

Enya on, moderate to heavy pour of the red wine, her preferred wine.

Why are you being judgmental?

Joanna RobinsonHost26:36

I'm not judgmental.

Okay.

It, it sounded-

Joanna RobinsonHost26:37

I'm celebrating

... a little judgmental.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:38

She doesn't have to be around those, like, mean women who are like, "We're all drinking white.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:42

If you wanna drink red-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost26:43

... that's fine, Patricia." She's just can drink red in peace, but not in peace 'cause the Boogeyman's there.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:47

But, you know, barely.

Well, and not in peace because she tried to get chicken Parm and coconut cream pie-

Joanna RobinsonHost26:50

[laughs]

... and she ended up with whatever, like, high protein diet nightmare-

Joanna RobinsonHost26:53

[laughs]

...

this alternative order was.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:55

Unkillable monster trope in film, T- TV, and mythology.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:58

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost26:59

So as you, as you noted, we are definitely doing Michael Myers here.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:02

I mean, other than Jaws, I would say the clearest comp we've done, uh, to another, uh-

Without a doubt

Joanna RobinsonHost27:07

... you know, and The Shining, I guess.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:08

But, like, this is even clearer I would say.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:10

And here's, here's where I'm gonna, uh, hopefully delight you with some stunt, uh, stunt actor information.

I can't wait.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:16

Okay.