E203 - Dr. Justin Sledge: The Occult, Witch Trials & the Forbidden Teachings of Gnosticism

Uh, but where I want to really start, because I feel like we can set the stage really well for individuals, and also what I've just been exploring personally is, like, how to even approach these topics in a way that is actually fruitful.

How does reason and logic come into the picture exploring something inherently non-rational at times? When you call yourself a skeptic, you don't mean what most people mean when they say that word online.

So how would you define that term? How, how you, how it relates to you?

Yeah.

Skepticism in the classical sense of the word doesn't mean disbelieving in things, and it certainly doesn't mean going out there and trying to dis-what-- disprove what people believe.

It's a very, uh, petulant way of existing, honestly.

But skepticism in the classical tradition simply means withholding judgment.

It simply means take a look at the data, take a look at the history, take a look at the books, take a look at the arguments and say, "You know what? I just don't know, and it's okay for me not to know." And these arguments are compelling in some ways and strange in others, and so the-- my task as a scholar is not to come down on one side of, of the fence about whether this stuff is true or not.

My job is to bracket my own desires to know that kind of thing and simply say, "This is what we have, and if that's what we have, that's it." And so skepticism, for me, means just simply withholding judgment, and when I can practice that, and when I do it hopefully well, it means that the text can speak for themself, the traditions speak for themselves, and I get to be that voice, which is a great honor for me.

Mm.

Because these are, uh, the, the world of Western esotericism has been a world greatly diminished, hunted, repressed, suppressed.

Books have been banned and burned.

And at this juncture in history, I get to be one of the voices through which this material gets to live, and it's very important for me to lift up their voice and to put my voice back behind it, and that, that part of that process is that skeptical process, just withholding judgment.

And, and when I withhold it, their voice can come through.

I feel you hold that responsibility with, with reverence and importance, and you understand the weight that you, uh, have and you, and that you carry with being such a trusted voice in this space.

That way you define skepticism, is that referring to, like, epoche, how you, how you use that word?

Yeah.

Epoche is sort of the, you know, that, that moment where you bracket, right? It's a-

Yeah.

I mean, it's, uh, so in phenomenology, it's bracketing, but yeah, it's, it's bracketing my own personal beliefs and how those personal beliefs can impose themselves, become a bias, right? That sneak into how I'm evaluating the material, and that's the thing I just don't-- I don't want to happen because I feel like it, it makes me the main character, and I don't want to be the main character.

[laughs]

I want the material that I study to be the main character and the work I do at Esoterica or my academic work, I want, you know, I want to Cornelius Agrippa or the Kabbalah or the alchemists or whatever, I want them to be the star of the show, and that epoche gives me the chance to take a step back and, uh, I feel like that's-

Yeah.

We need less main character syndrome in the world.

[laughs]

Uh, but where I want to really start, because I feel like we can set the stage really well for individuals, and also what I've just been exploring personally is, like, how to even approach these topics in a way that is actually fruitful.

How does reason and logic come into the picture exploring something inherently non-rational at times? When you call yourself a skeptic, you don't mean what most people mean when they say that word online.

So how would you define that term? How, how you, how it relates to you?

Yeah.

Skepticism in the classical sense of the word doesn't mean disbelieving in things, and it certainly doesn't mean going out there and trying to dis-what-- disprove what people believe.

It's a very, uh, petulant way of existing, honestly.

But skepticism in the classical tradition simply means withholding judgment.

It simply means take a look at the data, take a look at the history, take a look at the books, take a look at the arguments and say, "You know what? I just don't know, and it's okay for me not to know." And these arguments are compelling in some ways and strange in others, and so the-- my task as a scholar is not to come down on one side of, of the fence about whether this stuff is true or not.

My job is to bracket my own desires to know that kind of thing and simply say, "This is what we have, and if that's what we have, that's it." And so skepticism, for me, means just simply withholding judgment, and when I can practice that, and when I do it hopefully well, it means that the text can speak for themself, the traditions speak for themselves, and I get to be that voice, which is a great honor for me.

Mm.

Because these are, uh, the, the world of Western esotericism has been a world greatly diminished, hunted, repressed, suppressed.

Books have been banned and burned.

And at this juncture in history, I get to be one of the voices through which this material gets to live, and it's very important for me to lift up their voice and to put my voice back behind it, and that, that part of that process is that skeptical process, just withholding judgment.

And, and when I withhold it, their voice can come through.

I feel you hold that responsibility with, with reverence and importance, and you understand the weight that you, uh, have and you, and that you carry with being such a trusted voice in this space.

That way you define skepticism, is that referring to, like, epoche, how you, how you use that word?

Yeah.

Epoche is sort of the, you know, that, that moment where you bracket, right? It's a-

Yeah.

I mean, it's, uh, so in phenomenology, it's bracketing, but yeah, it's, it's bracketing my own personal beliefs and how those personal beliefs can impose themselves, become a bias, right? That sneak into how I'm evaluating the material, and that's the thing I just don't-- I don't want to happen because I feel like it, it makes me the main character, and I don't want to be the main character.

[laughs]

I want the material that I study to be the main character and the work I do at Esoterica or my academic work, I want, you know, I want to Cornelius Agrippa or the Kabbalah or the alchemists or whatever, I want them to be the star of the show, and that epoche gives me the chance to take a step back and, uh, I feel like that's-

Yeah.

We need less main character syndrome in the world.

[laughs]