‘Spider-Noir’ Is Unsure of Itself. Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E6-7, ‘Euphoria’ S3E7, and ‘Top Chef’ S23E12.

May 28, 2026 · 1 hr 35 min · 17 segments

Chris and Andy talk about the controversy surrounding ‘MobLand’ (8:12) and their anticipation for the upcoming second seasons of ‘The Agency’ (15:43) and ‘Sugar’ (20:09). Then they discuss ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episodes 6-7 and the growing excitement around the show (25:26). Later, they react to the series premiere of ‘Spider-Noir,’ a superhero period drama starring Nicolas Cage (46:27). Finally, they touch on the penultimate episode of ‘Euphoria’ Season 3 (01:07:27) before breaking down ‘Top Chef’ S23E12 (01:16:49). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Order and it will come. Like today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speakers: Andy GreenwaldHostChris RyanHost

Top entities: Spider-Man Noir×21 Tom Hardy×24 The Agency×13 Andy Greenwald×12 Colin Farrell×11

Tremfya Crohn’s & Colitis Medication0:00 – 0:59

AdvertiserAd0:00

For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

AdvertiserAd0:07

Tremfya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

AdvertiserAd0:12

Tremfya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

AdvertiserAd0:21

If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremfya, proper training is required.

AdvertiserAd0:25

Tremfya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis.

AdvertiserAd0:34

Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.

AdvertiserAd0:40

Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

AdvertiserAd0:44

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine.

AdvertiserAd0:48

Explore what's possible.

AdvertiserAd0:50

Ask your doctor about Tremfya today.

AdvertiserAd0:52

Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit tremfyaradio.com.

Amazon Prime Same-Day Delivery1:00 – 1:36

Chris RyanHost1:00

[percussive music] This episode of The Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime.

Chris RyanHost1:09

Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for.

Chris RyanHost1:18

That's when Prime same-day delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines.

Chris RyanHost1:27

Same-day delivery, it's on Prime.

Chris RyanHost1:28

Visit amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas.

Chris RyanHost1:35

Terms apply.

Show Open & Hosts’ Welcome1:36 – 2:11

Andy GreenwaldHost1:36

[rock music] I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:39

Stand up and walk, now.

Chris RyanHost1:42

[upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost1:44

My name is Chris Ryan.

Chris RyanHost1:45

I am an editor at theringer.com, and joining me in the studio, wondering if Hamish Linklater can play stretch four for the Sixers, it's Andy Greenwald.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:56

Look at the way you wove it together.

Chris RyanHost1:58

Yeah, all of our interests.

Chris RyanHost2:00

Widows Bay, the Philadelphia 76ers.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:02

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:02

Free agency.

Chris RyanHost2:02

Andy, free agency.

Chris RyanHost2:03

It's great to see you.

Chris RyanHost2:05

Uh, today on the menu...

Chris RyanHost2:07

Let me tell you a little bit how we do things at this restaurant.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:09

Yeah, great.

Chris RyanHost2:10

It's small plates.

Travel, Email Bag & Ironman Daydreams2:11 – 8:20

Andy GreenwaldHost2:11

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost2:11

They're meant to be shared.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:12

Great.

Chris RyanHost2:12

It's farm to table.

Chris RyanHost2:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:13

How many do we need per diner?

Chris RyanHost2:15

Um, we're gonna do, uh, the most recent two episodes of Widows Bay, which both came out this week.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:20

I'm gonna stop you before you even start.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:22

We're gonna do the last four episodes of Widows Bay, because we're not on the record together about any of them since episode three.

Chris RyanHost2:28

Oh, so you obviously didn't listen to any of my monologuing.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:31

No.

Chris RyanHost2:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:31

I heard that you did it.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:32

I said we're not on the record.

Chris RyanHost2:34

Um, and we also are gonna talk about Spider-Noir.

Chris RyanHost2:37

We're gonna talk about the-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:39

Chris RyanHost2:39

...

Chris RyanHost2:39

most recent episode of Euphoria and the most recent episode of Top Chef.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:43

Mm, man.

Chris RyanHost2:43

I also have some news at the top, but it's been a minute.

Chris RyanHost2:46

It's been a minute since I've seen your, your beautiful visage in person.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:49

You've been traveling a lot.

Chris RyanHost2:51

Not that much.

Chris RyanHost2:52

Really? I, I mean, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:53

Yes

Chris RyanHost2:53

... did, took two trips within the United States.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:55

Two trips within the United States within the last two weeks.

Chris RyanHost2:58

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:58

That's traveling a lot.

Chris RyanHost2:59

That is traveling a lot.

Chris RyanHost3:00

I did it.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:01

But-

Chris RyanHost3:01

Pacific Northwest and, um, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:02

What are you trying to hide?

Chris RyanHost3:03

[laughs] What am I doing? I'm just raising a lot of money, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost3:07

That's, you're bundling.

Chris RyanHost3:08

Yeah, [laughs] exactly.

Chris RyanHost3:09

Um, it's great to see you.

Chris RyanHost3:11

You can reach us at thewatch@spotify.com.

Chris RyanHost3:13

I notice we just got a flood of, of new emails.

Chris RyanHost3:15

Every once in a while, I gotta tell you, w- we're getting to the point where we might be able to do an Andy only, Effinger's only mailbag.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:21

Stop it.

Chris RyanHost3:22

But it's all just-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:23

Stop teasing me

Chris RyanHost3:23

... people being like, "I'm gonna read Effinger's too."

Andy GreenwaldHost3:25

Yeah, well, there's a lo- I see a lot of, uh, gonna.

Chris RyanHost3:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:28

I don't see a lot of actual, like, page turning, you know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost3:30

Um, you can follow us on Instagram at thewatchpod_.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:34

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost3:34

You can watch us on YouTube at the ringer-tv channel, where we're there with the prestige TV pod, and you can watch us on Spotify, where I hope you listen to us, but we're also available elsewhere where you wa- listen to podcasts.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:45

Is our email address...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:46

Has anyone signed it up for any, like, ActBlue emails or recurring donations?

Chris RyanHost3:50

No, doesn't seem like it.

Chris RyanHost3:51

I mean, I do get a lot of, like, I feel like I've seen an uptick in, like, random PR emails where I'm like, "You don't know your audience." Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:59

Chris RyanHost3:59

... would you guys be interested in covering the Ironman race?

Andy GreenwaldHost4:02

Hold on.

Chris RyanHost4:02

Not, not Tony Stark, but, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:04

Chris RyanHost4:04

... guys who have to-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:05

I th-

Chris RyanHost4:05

... run, swim, and bike.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:07

I thought it was gonna be Tony Stark versus, like, Iron Heart.

Chris RyanHost4:10

[laughs] No.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:10

You know what I mean? Versus War Machine.

Chris RyanHost4:13

I always, uh, kinda had a sneaking suspicion that I might be able to do an Ironman.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:18

N- okay, hold on.

Chris RyanHost4:19

But just in the-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:20

I'll put, this is the earliest time I've ever closed my laptop

Chris RyanHost4:21

...

Chris RyanHost4:21

but just in the I can do all three things.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:25

I ha- you know what?

Chris RyanHost4:26

But I can't, I don't know if I could d- how long I could do them.

Chris RyanHost4:28

Is there, like, a, like, an Ironman for softies? You know, like, soft batch.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:33

Iron Boys?

Chris RyanHost4:34

[laughs] Iron Boys.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:35

An Iron Boy competition where you get on a little tricycle.

Chris RyanHost4:37

Does anybody know about an Iron Boy competition? [laughs] I could watch it.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:41

Wait, wait, when was the first time-

Chris RyanHost4:43

Maybe it's on an island somewhere.

Chris RyanHost4:44

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:44

When was the first time...

Andy GreenwaldHost4:46

Careful.

Chris RyanHost4:47

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:47

The, the first time you ever learned about the Ironman competition as a triathlete?

Chris RyanHost4:50

80s ESPN.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:51

Right, so-

Chris RyanHost4:51

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost4:51

... basically, I wanna, I'm gonna ventriloquize this for you.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:55

I feel like we probably had a similar experience, like, maybe you're home from school one day and you turn on the Ocho-

Chris RyanHost4:59

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost4:59

... or ESPN Dos-

Chris RyanHost5:00

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost5:00

... at, like, 2:35 PM on a Tuesday.

Chris RyanHost5:02

D- dude, it was on flagship.

Chris RyanHost5:04

B- they didn't ha-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:04

They didn't have college sports

Chris RyanHost5:05

... always have football, bro, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:06

So you turn it on-

Chris RyanHost5:07

...

Chris RyanHost5:07

they used to show some crazy shit [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:07

... and you would just see someone, like, weeping-

Chris RyanHost5:10

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:11

... running in a Speedo.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:13

You know, which is usually would be Cinemax at 11:30 PM on a Friday.

Chris RyanHost5:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:16

But in this case, it was the middle of the day.

Chris RyanHost5:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:19

And I also was entranced by this for exactly the reason you said.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:23

I can physically do those three actions.

Chris RyanHost5:26

Yeah, I was kinda like, it actually seems like it would be refreshing to take a dip after a long bike ride.

Chris RyanHost5:30

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:30

That's what I thought.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:31

And you know what else I thought was really good about it? I thought the order was reasonable.

Chris RyanHost5:35

So what is it? It goes swim, bike, run?

Andy GreenwaldHost5:38

Yeah, I think that's what it was.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:40

Someone can Google that for us-

Chris RyanHost5:40

Yeah, what, I mean, like, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:41

...

Andy GreenwaldHost5:41

while we go here.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:42

But, like-

Chris RyanHost5:42

Honestly, the only thing that bothers me about it-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:43

Chris RyanHost5:43

... is, like, wouldn't I get a little chilly on the bike after-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:46

Yeah, I was like, oh-

Chris RyanHost5:46

... getting out of the ocean? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:47

Yeah, because my only reference for this wasn't that sports were hard and I wasn't qualified to do them.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:51

It was my favorite feeling isn't getting out of the ocean.

Chris RyanHost5:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:54

I'd love to, like, dry for a little bit so I don't chafe.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:58

But 100% you have locked in on something that I haven't thought about in decades, which at no point did I think I'll never be able to do that.

Chris RyanHost6:05

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:05

I was like, "Oh, that's something to put on my list."

Chris RyanHost6:07

Well, also, I think as only children-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:09

Yeah

Chris RyanHost6:09

... we had no tutelage.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:11

[laughs] Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:11

Our fathers, [laughs] they turned their backs on us at an early age.

Chris RyanHost6:15

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:15

Certainly athletically.

Chris RyanHost6:16

But-I didn't have an older brother to be like, "This is how you bowl."

Andy GreenwaldHost6:20

Right.

Chris RyanHost6:20

So a lot of what I do-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:22

Mm-mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:22

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost6:22

... much like Natasha Henstridge in Species, is mimicry.

Chris RyanHost6:26

You know? And so you see someone-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:28

[laughs] I was gonna say it's very sexual and violent at the end.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:31

But okay, your version works, too.

Chris RyanHost6:34

Um, I would watch a guy bowl-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:36

Yeah

Chris RyanHost6:36

... on ESPN, and if there was a bowling birthday party-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:39

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost6:39

...

Chris RyanHost6:40

I would do, like, um, an elaborate, like, [laughs] kind of fucking-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:43

You would go for spin?

Chris RyanHost6:44

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:44

I would be DeJesus.

Chris RyanHost6:46

And I would, like, w- throw a ball six lanes l- left because-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:50

Yeah

Chris RyanHost6:50

...

Chris RyanHost6:50

I'm not, like, a professional bowler, and I'm not an Ironman.

Chris RyanHost6:54

But I probably would start really strong.

Chris RyanHost6:57

The other thing-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:57

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost6:57

... and I'm sorry to delay on, on th- the wide world of sports that we're gonna talk about today.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:02

This is more interesting than the last two episodes of Euphoria.

Chris RyanHost7:05

It makes it seem...

Chris RyanHost7:06

I, I'm w- I'm kind of under the impression that we've made, like, great leaps in protein intake in the last seven years.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:12

What, like you and Craig? Or, like, who?

Chris RyanHost7:13

No, just, like, gels-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:15

Chris RyanHost7:15

... bars, all those things.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:16

Like, you could put it into more-

Chris RyanHost7:17

But did, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:18

... vessels

Chris RyanHost7:18

... guys back then, if they needed protein during, like, a race, like, just eat turkey? Or what would they do? [laughs] Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:24

The pace car for the Ironman Triathlon was the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile, and it would drive alongside the athletes.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:31

And the athletes would take ham-

Chris RyanHost7:33

Uh-huh

Andy GreenwaldHost7:33

... and salami, and they would eat it, and then they would light a cigarette-

Chris RyanHost7:36

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost7:37

... as they ran.

Chris RyanHost7:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:38

It was a pure time.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:40

Here's the secret.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:41

Everybody was fine.

Chris RyanHost7:42

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost7:43

No, I know.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:43

Everybody was fine.

Chris RyanHost7:44

Those guys all lived forever.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:46

Did, did they?

Chris RyanHost7:47

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:47

Their hearts exploded-

Chris RyanHost7:48

They're probably fine

Andy GreenwaldHost7:49

... and now we-

Chris RyanHost7:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost7:49

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:50

When they were like, "You're too old for this," and they're like, "I'm 25."

Chris RyanHost7:53

Well, there was that Dennis Leary bit for a while where it's always-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:56

Chris RyanHost7:56

... like, joggers, joggers who die of heart attacks.

Chris RyanHost7:58

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:59

Hm.

Chris RyanHost7:59

Or no, that was about joggers getting hit by buses.

Chris RyanHost8:01

Never mind.

Chris RyanHost8:02

Um, th-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:03

You could, you could iterate.

Chris RyanHost8:05

I could.

Chris RyanHost8:05

D- I have a lot in...

Chris RyanHost8:06

I have a, I feel, I feel like I have a Dennis Leary-esque quality to me sometimes.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:09

You've both been in Boston.

Chris RyanHost8:11

Smoked.

Chris RyanHost8:11

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:12

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:12

I've been to Boston.

Chris RyanHost8:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost8:13

You're wearing denim.

Chris RyanHost8:14

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost8:15

You secretly wanna be a, a, a dramatic actor.

Chris RyanHost8:18

I do.

Chris RyanHost8:19

I do.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:19

You, you love firemen.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:20

Should I stop?

Pivot to Industry News Segment8:20 – 8:39

Chris RyanHost8:20

What do you wanna start with news-wise? So we have-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:23

That was exhilarating.

Chris RyanHost8:24

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:24

I don't care what we do now.

Chris RyanHost8:25

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:25

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:25

So I have one thing t- for, for you, which is a new segment I'm introducing to the Watch podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:30

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:31

A- and just, you know, for first-time listeners, of which there, I'm sure there are zero, as with every other segment-

Chris RyanHost8:36

This will be a consistent staple for two weeks of this show

Tom Hardy vs. ‘MobLand’ Showrunner Feud8:39 – 16:27

Andy GreenwaldHost8:39

... and I've never been prepped on.

Chris RyanHost8:40

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:40

Well, often-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:42

Chris RyanHost8:43

... here's, here's a behind the curtain, behind the curtain.

Chris RyanHost8:46

I will be like, "It's time for us to do this segment."

Andy GreenwaldHost8:48

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:49

And you're like, "I don't have..." Like, remember I'm like, "Oh, what are we reading this week?" Like, or, "Watch of the week, what did we watch this weekend?"

Andy GreenwaldHost8:55

Hm.

Chris RyanHost8:55

And you'd be like, "Nothing."

Andy GreenwaldHost8:57

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:57

"N- I didn't do anything."

Andy GreenwaldHost8:58

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:58

And then you Instagram and you're like, "Look at this cool book I read," you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost9:03

Uh, yeah, because-

Chris RyanHost9:03

I think you save a little bit of your stuff for IG.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:05

That's for my personal brand.

Chris RyanHost9:06

That's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:07

Which is floundering.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:08

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost9:09

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:09

So if you could give me a cosign over each week.

Chris RyanHost9:11

So here's our, our new segment.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:12

Yeah?

Chris RyanHost9:13

It's called Your Silence is Deafening.

Chris RyanHost9:15

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:15

[laughs] This is great.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:16

This is great.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:17

I'm already in on this.

Chris RyanHost9:18

It's been-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:18

We-

Chris RyanHost9:19

... 48 whole hours-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:20

We say this to each other all the time on text

Chris RyanHost9:22

... and you have not publicly commented on Tom Hardy's exile from MobLand.

Chris RyanHost9:26

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:27

Not publicly, but I've been huddling with my team-

Chris RyanHost9:30

Andy GreenwaldHost9:31

... trying to craft the correct response because-

Chris RyanHost9:34

So while you spin your wheels-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:35

Yeah

Chris RyanHost9:35

... trying to decide how you're gonna phrase this.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:37

W- because to be clear-

Chris RyanHost9:38

I'll just-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:38

...

Andy GreenwaldHost9:38

I did prep a statement.

Chris RyanHost9:40

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:40

But it was, it was flacked.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:43

It w- it, it, it was really came in too hard.

Chris RyanHost9:45

Um, for folks who don't know, MobLand is a show on Paramount+.

Chris RyanHost9:50

Uh, it was created by Ronan Bennett who did Top Boy, and then taken over, showrun and executive produced, written by Jez Butterworth, who also does a show we're gonna discuss in a second called The Agency.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:00

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost10:00

And Jez Butterworth is an accomplished screenwriter and playwright in England.

Chris RyanHost10:03

Uh, he apparently, according to reports, had a falling out with Tom Hardy, which is not the first time this has happened with Tom Hardy.

Chris RyanHost10:10

The second season of MobLand is completed, and it was announced, strangely I thought-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:14

Right

Chris RyanHost10:14

...

Chris RyanHost10:14

since I don't think the third season has been renewed or greenlit, that Tom Hardy would no longer be on the show, that there was some sort of ultimatum, uh, Butterworth or Hardy.

Chris RyanHost10:25

And it seems like Jez Butterworth had won that fight.

Chris RyanHost10:28

Then hilariously-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:29

Chris RyanHost10:29

...

Chris RyanHost10:29

I think a lot of, like, leaked kind of accounts of Tom Hardy behavior.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:35

Yes.

Chris RyanHost10:36

Some ...

Chris RyanHost10:36

I saw some counter narratives flying around-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:38

Did you?

Chris RyanHost10:38

... certain circles, yeah.

Chris RyanHost10:40

And then, uh, as of today, the last thing I saw was that, and this is not from a, like, super reputable source-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:47

Chris RyanHost10:47

... was that there is some efforts to bring Hardy back into the fold.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:51

Oh, who's leading that charge?

Chris RyanHost10:53

Uh, who's leading that charge in the media, or who's leading that charge, like, to do that? I think David Glasser, who is, like, the kind of-

Andy GreenwaldHost10:59

Right

Chris RyanHost11:00

... 101 Studios impresario who also oversees a lot of Taylor Sheridan stuff.

Chris RyanHost11:03

I'm ...

Chris RyanHost11:03

Where, everybody's waiting.

Chris RyanHost11:05

Where do you land, Mirren or Hardy? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:07

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:07

Oh, I'm on the clock now?

Chris RyanHost11:09

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:09

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:09

Wait, so you're, you as one of the media's biggest Tom Hardy boosters-

Chris RyanHost11:14

Dude, if anybody's ever listened to me, they're gonna know.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:17

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost11:18

Look, it is what it is.

Chris RyanHost11:20

If you sign Tom Hardy up, man, [laughs] you sign up for the whole ride.

Chris RyanHost11:24

You can't get off-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:25

Our-

Chris RyanHost11:25

... midway.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:26

I would say-

Chris RyanHost11:26

You can't get off after season two.

Chris RyanHost11:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:27

There are certain things.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:29

This is ...

Andy GreenwaldHost11:29

I, I've been referencing this a lot because I love it, and he's been saying this for years.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:32

But our, our friend and colleague Brian Curtis' Now They Tell Us-

Chris RyanHost11:35

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost11:35

... notebook dump, which is the piece that appears after a coach is fired or someone is deposed.

Chris RyanHost11:38

At the end of a season, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:39

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:40

And suddenly, like, all the reporting that they didn't feel they could, they could source or verify or, or even report on freely, they can now say because that person is out of the building.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:48

The oppo dump for the big anti-Tom Hardy lobby was locked and loaded.

Chris RyanHost11:54

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:55

This is not a secret that he is challenging in the workspace.

Chris RyanHost11:59

Just read Kyle Buchanan's Fury Road book.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:01

Yes.

Chris RyanHost12:01

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:01

And so I, while I appreciate your Bane boosterism-

Chris RyanHost12:03

Watch Taboo.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:04

[laughs] Or, or join the rest of us in not watching Taboo.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:09

I think that, uh ...

Andy GreenwaldHost12:11

I, I'm just curious.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:11

I'm gonna float a hypothetical for you.

Chris RyanHost12:13

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:14

Let's say that you were scheduled to do a podcast with me, and at the appointed hour you arrived, sat down-And I was nowhere to be seen.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:24

Now, so far this is not a hypothetical.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:25

This is every week other than today.

Chris RyanHost12:27

Yeah, but then you come b- bustling in three minutes late and you're just like, "Apologies, apologies." [laughs] What? Is that what I sound like?

Andy GreenwaldHost12:35

[laughs] Jesus.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:37

So sorry, everyone.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:38

There was a horrid mess on the tube this morning.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:41

Uh, Tom Hardy according to the, the, the accounts in Kyle Buchanan's book, left, um, left Charlize Theron sitting in the, I believe the term is war rig-

Chris RyanHost12:53

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost12:53

... for three hours before sauntering onto set.

Chris RyanHost12:56

Well, I think he was trying to locate his voice, you know? Uh, he was trying to get-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:59

What do you mean locate it? It's always at the bottom of an old well.

Chris RyanHost13:02

[laughs] He was trying-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:03

It's always the same voice.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:04

What are you talking about?

Chris RyanHost13:05

I just like, I think Holly- I, I don't want anybody to get their, uh, feelings hurt-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:10

Yeah

Chris RyanHost13:10

... or be, be in any kind of physical danger.

Chris RyanHost13:12

I do find stories of on-set holi- like, you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:17

Sure

Chris RyanHost13:17

... you know, c- cultural or personality clashes to be pretty interesting to read about.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:23

Mm.

Chris RyanHost13:23

If, if Hollywood never had any of those, it would be a little bit less interesting to read about.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:28

Okay, that's fair.

Chris RyanHost13:28

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost13:29

It's just, I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:31

D- Are, are you that concerned about the third season of Mob Land?

Chris RyanHost13:34

No, and I, I didn't really like the first season of Mob Land that much.

Chris RyanHost13:38

I mean, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:38

Chris RyanHost13:38

...

Chris RyanHost13:38

I, I watched, I think I finished it.

Chris RyanHost13:41

I can't remember.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:42

Okay.

Chris RyanHost13:42

But it was just one of those things that I, I knocked out like two episodes-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:44

Yeah

Chris RyanHost13:44

... on a plane ride kinda thing after the first couple of episodes.

Chris RyanHost13:47

And I love that cast and I think-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:49

Yeah

Chris RyanHost13:49

... you know, it's been a strange show.

Chris RyanHost13:51

It was supposed to, it was initially, I- and the idea was it was gonna be a Don- the Ray Donovan spinoff

Andy GreenwaldHost13:55

Ray, Ray Donovan spinoff

Chris RyanHost13:57

Then I think it kind of-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:58

Dude

Chris RyanHost13:58

... mutated into half Gangs of London, half Yellowstone set, you know, in London with this crime family.

Chris RyanHost14:05

And some of the reporting suggests Hardy's been a little bit aggrieved by the fact that it went from being a Tom Hardy show to a Tom Hardy, Pierce Brosnan, Helen Mirren show.

Chris RyanHost14:16

And it sounds like he and Mirren specifically are butting heads.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:19

I-

Chris RyanHost14:19

Allegedly.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:20

I mean, what is the-

Chris RyanHost14:21

I wouldn't want big Mirren getting in, getting her-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:22

Careful

Chris RyanHost14:23

... litigation bag against me.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:24

What if, um, yeah, Helen Mirren doesn't care about what we say, but her husband Taylor Hackford is incredibly litigious-

Chris RyanHost14:30

I'm, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:30

... and a longtime listener of The Watch

Chris RyanHost14:31

...

Chris RyanHost14:31

I'm not entirely sure that's the case.

Chris RyanHost14:33

Helen Mirren may very well ca- care what I say.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:35

You're, wow.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:37

You've changed since your trip.

Chris RyanHost14:38

No, I'm just saying-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:39

She might

Chris RyanHost14:39

...

Chris RyanHost14:39

I still th- maintain-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:40

Right

Chris RyanHost14:40

...

Chris RyanHost14:40

I know for a fact Taylor Hackford has listened to Proof of Life.

Chris RyanHost14:44

I think there is a 50-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:44

We listen to the-

Chris RyanHost14:45

The Proof of Life rewatchables.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:47

Ah.

Chris RyanHost14:47

There is a 50% chance that he was like, "You're gonna get a kick out of this" and played it for Helen Mirren, and then there is a 25%-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:53

Yeah

Chris RyanHost14:54

... chance within that, that she was like, "This is my favorite podcast.

Chris RyanHost14:57

I love these guys." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost15:00

[laughs] Keep playing out this, then there's a 10% chance-

Chris RyanHost15:05

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost15:05

... that what?

Chris RyanHost15:07

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:07

That she's like, "Let me deep dive this guy's podcast career.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:10

Music Exists was really, really thought-provoking."

Chris RyanHost15:14

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:14

And then sh- then she makes the full connection after reading all of Chuck's books-

Chris RyanHost15:18

It's also-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:18

... that you're the one playing pool

Chris RyanHost15:19

... let me just add, there's a, there is-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:21

Yeah

Chris RyanHost15:21

... a non, a non-zero chance that Tom Hardy's also doing this to get off the show, which sometimes happens.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:27

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:27

I, I, I think the most interesting segue for me from this is that Mob Land has the kind of incredibly contemporary representative torturous-

Chris RyanHost15:37

Did you watch an episode of this?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:38

Yeah, the first two.

Chris RyanHost15:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:39

A torturous development cycle of many, many shows, uh, of the moment.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:45

Particularly we're gonna get to Spider Noir in a minute.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:47

What is, I feel like there's a, um, it's not a meme, but I feel like it is a saying that like, like if you put the, the dev, the dev boys on something you're gonna end up with like a fish with feet or like-

Chris RyanHost15:56

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:56

What, I, I, I'm getting the m- the, uh, the analogy wrong, but there's some idea that if you keep developing something you will end up with something that is so far from the initial purpose that you're not even sure why it exists.

Chris RyanHost16:05

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:06

And I kind of feel that way about Mob Land.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:09

It's fine, and all of the people in it are good, but I, I, I, I don't know, I'm chasing after an observation that I can't quite land about.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:17

Like, that's what Tom Hardy's doing? Okay.

Chris RyanHost16:20

I got the impression-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:20

I'm fine with it either way

Chris RyanHost16:21

...

Chris RyanHost16:21

when this first started, when Mob L- I, I- if I remember correctly, I can't believe how m- long we're spending on this, I believe he said-

Preview: ‘The Agency’ S2 vs. ‘Sugar’ S216:27 – 26:09

Andy GreenwaldHost16:27

You can.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:27

You love it

Chris RyanHost16:28

... "I wanna be in London close to my family."

Andy GreenwaldHost16:31

Right.

Chris RyanHost16:31

"This is a steady gig that I like." You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost16:33

That is so close to what I said about Harry Potter.

Chris RyanHost16:35

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:36

There was just one, what was the word he said that he wanted to be close to?

Chris RyanHost16:39

His family.

Chris RyanHost16:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:41

Right.

Chris RyanHost16:42

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:42

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:42

He's figured it out, man.

Chris RyanHost16:43

So another show that is on Paramount+ uh, along with Mob Land is The Agency, and The Agency is coming back I think June 21st.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:52

Soon.

Chris RyanHost16:53

And I, I'm pairing The Agency's return with the return of a, uh, a b- a bit maligned show on Apple TV, but one that is close to your heart.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:04

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost17:04

Um, a passion project of yours, which is Sugar, the Colin Farrell detective show, uh, also returning for its second season.

Chris RyanHost17:11

Honestly, surprisingly, it's been two years it seems like.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:14

Okay.

Chris RyanHost17:14

Has it?

Andy GreenwaldHost17:15

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:15

Sure, yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:16

When was Sugar on your top 10 insanely enough?

Andy GreenwaldHost17:19

It was not on my top 10.

Chris RyanHost17:20

Oh, yes it was.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:21

No, it was not.

Chris RyanHost17:22

Didn't you put Sugar in your top 10?

Andy GreenwaldHost17:24

No, I love to zag.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:27

I love to surprise and delight you, but no, sir.

Chris RyanHost17:31

I'm just gonna look up Sugar Season 1, excuse me.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:33

I promise, no.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:34

I think that I said that the pilot was m- one of my favorite pilots of the last few years.

Chris RyanHost17:39

It's two, 2024 is when it, it debuted.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:41

Wow.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:42

It was a different time.

Chris RyanHost17:42

And it's 2026 now.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:43

It was Joe Biden's favorite show.

Chris RyanHost17:44

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:46

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost17:46

We've changed.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:48

Um, maybe that's who you're mistaking me with.

Chris RyanHost17:50

Ah.

Chris RyanHost17:51

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost17:51

Also, isn't it funny that this is the new normal where we are talking about these shows, it's like, "Oh, The Agency's coming back.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:56

Sugar's coming back with its normal two-year gestation process." Yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:59

Agency was last year, wasn't it?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:01

No.

Chris RyanHost18:01

Damn, really? That was also Joe Biden's favorite show?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:05

Uh.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:05

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost18:07

Joe Biden loves The Agency, you know what I mean?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:09

Do you think?

Chris RyanHost18:09

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:11

Uh-

Chris RyanHost18:11

I almost Googled Joe Biden The Agency [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:12

Joe Biden The Agency? What are you gonna get from-

Chris RyanHost18:14

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:14

...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:14

if you do that? Uh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:17

Anyway.

Chris RyanHost18:17

2024.

Chris RyanHost18:18

You're right.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:18

Yeah, no way of knowing-

Chris RyanHost18:19

What the fuck?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:19

...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:19

but I'm glad you Googled it.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:20

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:20

Which one do you wanna talk about first? Let's talk about the-

Chris RyanHost18:21

I wanna talk about like c- well, first of all, y- like you alluded to, coming back after such a long interval, but also where you're at with these-But like, the opportunity for, since we're doing a lot more recurring television now in, than-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:34

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost18:34

...

Chris RyanHost18:34

in recent years, a show that maybe wrong- was wrong-footed at certain points in its first season-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:39

Right

Chris RyanHost18:40

... tonally was still trying to find its voice, et cetera.

Chris RyanHost18:42

Which one of these do you think has the biggest opportunity or the most likely opportunity, most like, highest likelihood of improving in its second season?

Andy GreenwaldHost18:50

Well, I will say, start by saying both have delivered excellent trailers-

Chris RyanHost18:54

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost18:54

... for their second seasons.

Chris RyanHost18:55

They sure have.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:56

No question about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:57

Um, and both in, if you were just going by the trailers, present a pretty exciting vision of 2020s television, where very attractive movie stars fully embrace the genre trappings-

Chris RyanHost19:12

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost19:12

... of, that are, that are really possible to explore within serialized television.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:16

So, that's cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:18

Um, I think the...

Andy GreenwaldHost19:20

That said, there is no question, I, I'll just say this now, like The Agency Season 2 is going to be much better than Sugar Season 2.

Chris RyanHost19:26

Well, 'cause we know what it's about because it's about, it's based on Le Bureau-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:29

Yeah, so it's-

Chris RyanHost19:30

... and so we know where Season 2 goes.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:31

So, let's separate the conversation for a second to say that The Agency, one of our favorite shows of two years ago, both because it was stylish and incredibly well pr- acted, and was low-key a pretty good London hang show, um, despite all of the stress-

Chris RyanHost19:47

All the barbering

Andy GreenwaldHost19:48

... that Misha was going under-

Chris RyanHost19:49

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost19:49

... going through.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:50

Um, it is, as you said, it is a fairly devout adaptation of one of the greatest shows probably ever on television-

Chris RyanHost19:59

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost19:59

...

Andy GreenwaldHost19:59

the French series Le Bureau.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:01

And as the season progressed, I think it started to develop its own kind of chilly swagger that suggested that it was going to deviate in ways, maybe not always plot, but in terms of the, the delivery of the plot in ways that felt kind of exciting.

Chris RyanHost20:13

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:14

And second season of Le Bureau is better than the first season, with a lot of very cool, um, set pieces and moments of tension, and this trailer looks so sick.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:24

It made me so excited to watch it, and it actually made me appreciate even more how nice it was to have such a quality, consistent entertainment for those 10 weeks two years ago.

Chris RyanHost20:32

One of the crazy things about The Agency is that, uh, you know, it's got a s- pretty star-studded cast.

Chris RyanHost20:38

Jeffrey Wright, Richard Gere, Catherine Waterston.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:40

Richard Gere's Homer's dad-

Chris RyanHost20:42

Andy GreenwaldHost20:42

... from Euphoria?

Chris RyanHost20:43

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:43

Okay.

Chris RyanHost20:44

Carrie Lowell and Richard Gere's son-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:45

Hmm

Chris RyanHost20:46

... is Homer.

Chris RyanHost20:47

Well, Dylan on Euphoria.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost20:49

That's the character.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:49

I just wanted to make it relevant to our young TikTok fans.

Chris RyanHost20:52

I- they will have more to do this season based on-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:54

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost20:54

So, if you were watching season one-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:55

Yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost20:55

... and you were like, "Richard Gere's in, like, six scenes, and Catherine Waterston's not on this show really."

Andy GreenwaldHost20:59

Barely.

Chris RyanHost21:00

Um, and John Magaro, like, what's he doing, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost21:03

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost21:03

Um, they'll have stuff to do this, this season.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:05

It looks awesome.

Chris RyanHost21:05

It does.

Chris RyanHost21:06

Sugar.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:07

[laughs] Okay.

Chris RyanHost21:08

So, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:09

I can't even-

Chris RyanHost21:10

I, I can't even...

Chris RyanHost21:10

We can't have this conversation without spoiling an element of Sugar.

Chris RyanHost21:13

Many people listening are probably like, "What are these guys talking about? I haven't even heard of Sugar." Sugar came out two years ago.

Chris RyanHost21:19

Detective sh- show's set in California, like I...

Chris RyanHost21:21

LA, like I mentioned.

Chris RyanHost21:22

Stars Colin Farrell.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:23

Yep.

Chris RyanHost21:24

I, uh, people sometimes ask, do I have to watch the first season to start the second season? We have started to push the limits on what-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:30

We have

Chris RyanHost21:31

... we are capable of with that.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost21:33

I would like to take-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:34

Like, like triathletes

Chris RyanHost21:34

... five seconds of just staring at you and-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:37

Yeah

Chris RyanHost21:38

... maybe vamping.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:39

Sure.

Chris RyanHost21:39

And in one second we are going to spoil-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:42

Yeah, we are

Chris RyanHost21:42

... a big part of what makes Sugar Sugar.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:45

And, and you know why we're gonna do it? Because fucking Tim Apple doesn't want you to know.

Chris RyanHost21:49

He doesn't want us to know.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:51

This trailer hides the ball, and by the ball, I mean one of the great television bag fumbles in recent history.

Chris RyanHost21:57

Do you know what I said when I watched this trailer? "Are you having a fucking laugh?"

Andy GreenwaldHost22:00

Yeah, because this is a trailer for the show Sugar should have been-

Chris RyanHost22:04

But it's-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:04

... and let me tell you, it's not.

Chris RyanHost22:06

But also it's like, is this the first season of Sugar?

Andy GreenwaldHost22:11

Also, [laughs] you can't just trailer your way into the movie you wish it was.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:16

We've seen this fail in m- movies again and again.

Chris RyanHost22:19

Three, two, one.

Chris RyanHost22:21

Colin Farrell's character on Sugar-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:23

Is a fucking alien.

Chris RyanHost22:24

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:25

He's a blue spaceman.

Chris RyanHost22:27

When does that come out?

Andy GreenwaldHost22:27

Like, episode five.

Chris RyanHost22:29

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:30

It's excruciating, okay?

Chris RyanHost22:31

Did you know that w- like, when you were watching it?

Andy GreenwaldHost22:34

No.

Chris RyanHost22:34

And then y- he- he's an alien.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:36

Yeah, and then I stood up, went out for a pack of cigarettes.

Chris RyanHost22:40

[laughs] Never came home.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:41

Never smoked 'em.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:42

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost22:42

Uh, w- did you-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:44

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost22:44

I think I stopped watching Sugar.

Chris RyanHost22:46

Does, does his alien-hood-

Andy GreenwaldHost22:48

Yeah

Chris RyanHost22:49

... play a major role in the second half of the season?

Andy GreenwaldHost22:51

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost22:52

Oh, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:52

Yeah, dude.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:54

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost22:55

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost22:55

Wouldn't it in yours?

Chris RyanHost22:57

I don't know, this second season trailer makes it look like he loves boxing.

Chris RyanHost23:01

Like, I don't know, like... [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost23:02

Look, we don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:03

I keep waiting for DJT to tell us what aliens love.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:06

I keep hearing there's a press conference coming.

Chris RyanHost23:08

Yeah, I know, I know.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:08

And maybe it's like they love noir movies and aliens.

Chris RyanHost23:10

A lot of people on the streets are like aliens right now.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:13

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost23:13

They're coming up to me with tears in their eyes.

Chris RyanHost23:16

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost23:16

No, that's just the Alien Earth FYC campaign, which is all over town.

Chris RyanHost23:19

Um, yeah, this is a huge twist in the show that they are not giving away-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:24

Because-

Chris RyanHost23:24

...

Chris RyanHost23:24

in the trailer-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:25

Because it is a fucking-

Chris RyanHost23:26

... for the second season

Andy GreenwaldHost23:27

... anchor around the neck of what could have been good.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:32

It is...

Andy GreenwaldHost23:32

I, I, we, I wish I had done the prep to prepare for a, the, the, they're the same thing, the fucking f- f- fish with feet.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:41

This is what we have here.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:42

Like, it's okay to do a small thing well.

Chris RyanHost23:47

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:47

Like, Ina Garten made a whole career out of it, and she should work at Apple TV, frankly, because you have Colin Farrell, one of the most stylish and compelling and charismatic actors of our time, looking incredible in beautiful suits, driving a sports car in a neon-

Chris RyanHost24:03

It's Colin Farrell Rockford Files

Andy GreenwaldHost24:04

... tinged...

Andy GreenwaldHost24:05

Yes, but like, also really embracing the idea of, like, what LA light looks like and what a noir would look like in bright color, not in whatever fucking rinky-dink Technicolor they did to Spider-Noir to, uh, try to appeal to multiple audiences at once.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:19

We'll get there.

Chris RyanHost24:19

[laughs] Coming attractions for Andy's-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:21

I'm just-

Chris RyanHost24:21

...

Chris RyanHost24:21

Spider-Noir take

Andy GreenwaldHost24:22

...

Andy GreenwaldHost24:22

I'm just saying.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:25

And that would have...

Andy GreenwaldHost24:26

The, in the, in the great words of the fucking Seder dinner, Dayenu.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:31

Like, that would've been enough.

Chris RyanHost24:32

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:33

But instead they were like, "No, no, there's also a, a secret society because this guy likes noir movies because he's an alien."We don't needed that.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:41

We don't need that

Chris RyanHost24:41

Do you think that Colin Farrell signed up for this to play a detective or an alien?

Andy GreenwaldHost24:45

I think Colin Farrell signed up for this for a chance to wear suits that weren't fucking fat suits-

Chris RyanHost24:49

And shoot in LA

Andy GreenwaldHost24:49

...

Andy GreenwaldHost24:49

in the back lot of Warner Brothers-

Chris RyanHost24:50

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost24:50

... doing Penguin.

Chris RyanHost24:51

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:52

Uh, and yet [laughs] he does have to wear an alien suit at some points in the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:56

In a perfect world, this show gets renewed because they're like, "Just do the parts that work.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:00

We don't care that he's an alien." That's fine, and maybe they did lean into it because they beefed up the cast, like you, you were pointing out.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:07

Like-

Chris RyanHost25:07

Yeah, Shea Whigham, uh, Sasha Calle, Tony Dalton, like a really great ensemble this season.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:12

The plot already looks more interesting than the kind of-

Chris RyanHost25:15

It looks like a detective investigating, like, a missing boxer and, and then Tony Dalton, Lalo from-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:22

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost25:22

... from, uh, Better Call Saul plays a sheriff's deputy, I think, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost25:26

It's just-

Chris RyanHost25:27

...

Chris RyanHost25:27

Shea Whigham seems to be a fixer.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:28

It's just so, so, so weird to me, and it, it...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:34

I, I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:34

Like, at, at a time when Widow's Bay is on the docket for us-

Chris RyanHost25:37

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost25:38

... to talk about, like, I, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm definitely giving...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:41

I, I don't really wanna rail on Apple's development process for why this happened the way it happened, and even within the context of it's an alien show and a detective show, the big reveal being, just being slow-walked to episode five was also such a weird fumble in season one.

Chris RyanHost25:56

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:56

Anyway, it's just a bummer because I watched that trailer and I was like, "This is a show I want." And I think they were probably smart to do that and say, like, "Look, all the stars are on Apple and they're all kinda doing genre stuff, and you'll have a good time with this." Listener, I don't know if that's true.

‘Widows Bay’ Two-Episode Event Breakdown26:10 – 47:25

Chris RyanHost26:10

Well, I can, I can assure you that we'll, we'll, we'll at least give the second season a college try.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:15

Will we?

Chris RyanHost26:15

I'll jump back in.

Chris RyanHost26:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:17

Yeah, you don't care anymore.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:18

You don't care.

Chris RyanHost26:18

You showed me the way.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:19

About-

Chris RyanHost26:19

You led me down the path of we don't have to watch TV to talk about TV.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:24

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost26:24

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:24

I was a trailblazer in that field

Chris RyanHost26:25

... let's be positive.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:26

Okay.

Chris RyanHost26:27

And let's talk about Widow's Bay.

Chris RyanHost26:28

Widow's Bay released two episodes this week for a very clear purpose.

Chris RyanHost26:32

Um, these two episodes are linked in ways that I found, just like this series itself, surprising and delightful.

Chris RyanHost26:39

Uh, episode six is called Our History and it's directed by Ti West.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:43

Who's a big deal.

Chris RyanHost26:44

Great horror director, directed Pearl and Maxine, uh, and X, and he directed House of the Devil.

Chris RyanHost26:51

Like, he's a great horror director.

Chris RyanHost26:53

Also directed a really cool, uh, like Brian Jonestown kind of, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:58

Chris RyanHost26:58

...

Chris RyanHost26:58

Jonestown-esque, um, movie called The Sacrament that I really liked.

Chris RyanHost27:02

Anyway, he directed this episode, Our History, which is set in 1702.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:07

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost27:08

It stars Betty Gilpin, uh, as Sarah Westcott, who comes to the Widow's Bay island, uh, betrothed to, uh, Richard Warren, who is the town y- you could say leader, savior, captor.

Chris RyanHost27:22

Um, a- and Richard Warren's played by Hamish Linklater, kind of in a sly nod, I think, to his Midnight Mass character, who was also a priest who-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:31

Whoa

Chris RyanHost27:31

... worked on a, in a, a rural island.

Chris RyanHost27:34

Um, and, and when we find these two uniting in 1702, a plague of violent insanity is kind of gripping the island.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:43

Reminiscent of what we saw in the fog in the premiere episode.

Chris RyanHost27:45

That's right.

Chris RyanHost27:46

Uh, and, uh, Sarah finds herself in the center of these proceedings and attempts to save herself and Warren's children-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:52

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost27:52

... as he and some of this townsfolk aim to stop her.

Chris RyanHost27:55

Should we j- talk about these episodes separately or together?

Andy GreenwaldHost27:58

I would like to actually take one, if I may, brief step back just to contextualize our conversation about these episodes.

Chris RyanHost28:05

Just to talk about John Sugar and his journey.

Chris RyanHost28:06

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost28:07

When they revealed that he was an alien...

Chris RyanHost28:08

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost28:10

Widow's Bay is the best television show of the year to such a staggering degree-

Chris RyanHost28:15

Look who's trying to get on a poster.

Chris RyanHost28:16

Look who's trying to get an FYC campaign.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:18

Let me try again.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:19

Which camera?

Chris RyanHost28:19

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost28:19

Widow's Bay is the best television show of the year, M dash Andy Greenwald comma primary host of The Watch podcast.

Chris RyanHost28:26

Whoa.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:27

That's for the poster.

Chris RyanHost28:29

Primary.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:31

You were traveling.

Chris RyanHost28:31

[laughs] Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:33

Of course, I was gone for a week too, but anyway, my point is this show is so good in a way that staggers, humbles, and delights me.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:45

Like, I, my experience watching it is such that I am, I am enjoying it, I'm laughing, I'm riveted, and I can't stop thinking at every moment of all of the brilliant creative decisions that went into almost every frame of it.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:00

Before we even talk about these episodes, I'm gonna talk about, like, the directorial and cinematograph- and camera choices that are, that are involved in a show this specific, this tonally and aesthetically specific, that shifts.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:15

It's a period piece this week.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:17

Previous week it was a crazy drug trip.

Chris RyanHost29:19

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:20

There have been, I believe, four directors so far, Hiro Murai, Sam Donovan, Ti West-

Chris RyanHost29:26

Andrew DeYoung

Andy GreenwaldHost29:26

... and Andrew DeYoung, who works with Tim Robinson a lot and is fant- fantastic.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:31

There is no w- there is no aberration from episode to episode.

Chris RyanHost29:35

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:35

That's the kinda thing that you see in a long-running show, where there's enough of a book on it and a style guide that when people come on, they feel comfortable knowing what it is they're stepping into.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:45

To do that from a cold stop is just remarkable.

Chris RyanHost29:47

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:48

Um, the tonal balance of this show to be legitimately scary, to be legitimately funny, and to be legitimately emotionally gripping is something I've never seen done before, and it's doing it in such a...

Andy GreenwaldHost30:02

It, it's subtle in the sense that this is not a giant, expensive, starry adaptation of something.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:09

It is not based on preexisting material.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:12

It is not pr- it was not presented to us as the next big show.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:16

The way that it was put together with just this, like, quiet confidence, uh, competence, and, y- you know, occasional brilliance is wild to me.

Chris RyanHost30:28

I-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:28

It's wild to me

Chris RyanHost30:29

... cosign everything you just said.

Chris RyanHost30:30

The-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:31

And every...

Andy GreenwaldHost30:31

And, and by the way, I know this isn't really a valuable comment, but everyone's talking about that.

Chris RyanHost30:35

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:35

Like, everyone, when I have conversations with people, someone'll be like, "Oh my God, the editing.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:39

The editing is so exceptional."

Chris RyanHost30:41

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:41

Someone will say, "Oh, notice Allison Jones, the legendary casting director," you know, Freaks and Geeks, uh, Barbie, The Office, Veep.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:47

"She worked on this," and you can tell.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:50

Like, down to the guest stars week to week, I'm blown away and-

Chris RyanHost30:53

Well, and to your pointUh, several shows that I have been from not engaged to highly engaged with over the last couple weeks have come out on Netflix and Amazon.

Chris RyanHost31:06

Uh, Spider Noir, for instance, dropped its whole season.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:08

Yep.

Chris RyanHost31:08

Legends we talked about, like The Burrows on Netflix I talked about with Joe last week.

Chris RyanHost31:14

Um, feels like in the sort of larger conversation their, their moment's already come and gone in some ways.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:21

Mm.

Chris RyanHost31:21

Because you just, your, your engagement with a binge is individual and personal.

Chris RyanHost31:26

Nobody's on the same page.

Chris RyanHost31:28

You can feel Widows Bay uptick in group chats-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:33

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost31:33

... and in conversations at, I'm sure school pickup or whatever, where it's like, "What are you watching?" Or like dinner parties or conversations at restaurants, and it's like people are picking up on Widows Bay, they are catching up on Widows Bay, they are excited about Widows Bay.

Chris RyanHost31:49

I feel like there was like a, almost like an awareness that this was a special two-part event this week.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:53

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost31:54

Completely agree with you.

Chris RyanHost31:55

There's also something like, you know how I, I always...

Chris RyanHost31:59

N- I hear Sam Esmail in my head, where it's like you cannot get mad at a piece of art for what it didn't do.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:05

He was talking to me.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:06

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost32:06

But like, to, you can't ma- be mad about the choices-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:08

Yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost32:09

... that it makes.

Chris RyanHost32:10

It's like you have to evaluate the choice it did make-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:12

Yeah

Chris RyanHost32:12

... not what it could have done.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:13

I think that's right.

Chris RyanHost32:14

I wanna just say that in less sure hands-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:18

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost32:18

... or in a, um, a less certain-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost32:21

... showrunner's hands, like other than Katie Dippold, like this would have been, this Art History episode would have been Drunk History.

Chris RyanHost32:27

It would have been Betty Gilpin doing kind of Krasinski, uh, Jim, Jim office faces while all this stuff is happening, because she basically is doing a note perfect 18th century-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:42

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost32:42

... like Puritan woman, but also doing, uh, Amy Poehler in Parks and Rec.

Chris RyanHost32:49

[laughs] Like she has comic timing, and she is giving it a modern sensibility I think.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:53

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:53

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost32:53

That is like, uh, as soon as I got here I was like, "What the fuck is going on?" You know what I mean? Like i- she has like that kind of like y- "I know you're watching me, and this is a break from this show's reality-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:04

Yeah

Chris RyanHost33:04

...

Chris RyanHost33:05

but I'm going to be consistent with the way Matthew Rhys reacts to things on the island as well-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:10

That-

Chris RyanHost33:10

...

Chris RyanHost33:10

even though it's 300 years apart."

Andy GreenwaldHost33:12

How did they do that?

Chris RyanHost33:13

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:13

How did they, how did they do a 300-year flashback episode with the confidence of a show that has been running for multiple seasons?

Chris RyanHost33:23

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:24

Um, it, there's these subtle choices that I'm dazzled by.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:28

Like we, we watched the first episode, and we raved about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:30

And then we watched the second, the second one, and I think we took time to praise the fact that the show seemingly pitched itself in the first episode as, "Here comes the big trouble." Like this is going to be an event series, for lack of a better word.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:44

But then almost immediately it walked it back.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:46

The tourists did come, and there was suddenly more space for episodic situational comedy, or hijinks of this type of horror film, this type of horror story.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:56

And I was ready to settle into a perceived take of, "That's pretty smart for a show that might run multiple seasons made by someone who worked on Parks and Rec," for example.

Chris RyanHost34:04

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:05

Then I realized it was doing both at the same time.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:08

To make the commitment to do the flashback to the island's founder, and then deal-

Chris RyanHost34:12

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost34:12

... with that character and blow it up-

Chris RyanHost34:14

This is exactly where I wanted to go

Andy GreenwaldHost34:15

... with multiple episodes to go, is a level of confidence in the larger story project that is remarkable.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:21

And it caused me to go back, though, and notice all the little smart decisions, like the fact that episode, uh, three, Sea Hag, and episode four, um, Beach Reads, which is a contender for episode of the year, are happening concurrently.

Chris RyanHost34:38

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:38

So playing with time in a way to pre-address the idea-

Chris RyanHost34:43

Beach Reads is the Patricia episode?

Andy GreenwaldHost34:44

Yes.

Chris RyanHost34:44

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:44

To, to, to almost, uh, pre, uh, counter the, the criticism that it can't, that, that befouls a lot of television, which is it can't be the most important thing that's ever happened if we have time for a bottle episode or a side quest.

Chris RyanHost34:59

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:00

All of these things are not, um, amateur decisions.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:04

You know, they are not rash decisions.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:05

They are thoughtful, considered decisions that are paying off the story.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:08

And so all of that is preamble to say these two episodes were ballsy as hell.

Chris RyanHost35:13

The, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:14

And I'm glad they dropped them together, which was another smart decision.

Chris RyanHost35:16

When they were digging him up at the end of, uh...

Chris RyanHost35:19

Is it, I think at the end of Art History they start digging him up?

Andy GreenwaldHost35:22

Yep.

Chris RyanHost35:23

I was like, "That was cool." And I'm sure they're digging him up to get the necklace, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost35:26

Yep.

Chris RyanHost35:26

Or something.

Chris RyanHost35:27

You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost35:27

Oh my God.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:28

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:28

That's not what they did.

Chris RyanHost35:31

And then this is comic screenwriting that is being applied to a sort of chamber horror drama, where it's like what if he was still alive in that box? And then what if Hamish Linklater was just on this show for an episode?

Andy GreenwaldHost35:52

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost35:53

And what if instead of being unfrozen caveman lawyer who's freaking out about, like, there being electricity and stuff, he's actually like, "I've decided I, I, I need to die because I've been tortured for hundreds of years."

Andy GreenwaldHost36:05

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost36:05

And then he's like, "Actually, I kinda wanna live." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost36:08

Can I throw one more what if at you?

Chris RyanHost36:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:10

What if our, our meaning the audience's, introduction to his, uh, resurrection, or he never died, the fact that he's still alive, is played entirely through the perspective of Tom waking up from one of the most hellacious-

Chris RyanHost36:23

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost36:23

... 24-hour mushroom trips in recorded history, so that he shows up and, [laughs] and Richard is already upstairs?

Chris RyanHost36:30

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:31

There is no jump scare in the coffin.

Chris RyanHost36:33

And Patricia is rattled, and Wick has already cut his hand trying to op- Like, there has already been-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:39

Yes

Chris RyanHost36:39

... all this stuff happening while Tom is like, "I've been asleep for a day."

Andy GreenwaldHost36:43

That is another sign of, of filmmaker confidence, storyteller confidence, that we don't need to hit every potential-

Chris RyanHost36:50

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost36:50

... spike.

Chris RyanHost36:50

It's funnier to have them be like, "Don't open that.

Chris RyanHost36:52

We, we tried that already." Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:53

We already did it.

Chris RyanHost36:54

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:54

We're behind...

Andy GreenwaldHost36:55

Our main character is behind the story.

Chris RyanHost36:56

Yeah, so in Seasickness, uh, which is directed by Sam Donovan, as Andy mentioned, who'd, you know, worked on Skins and Severance and The Crown, and written by Dave Harris, um-I've seen this, many people say this has got a lot of Jaws juice on it, and it just-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:11

Jaws juice?

Chris RyanHost37:11

Yeah, well just like the, the three of them-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:13

Is that like Sea Chum?

Chris RyanHost37:14

... on the boat-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:14

What is that? Okay

Chris RyanHost37:14

... singing and kind of looking for something out there.

Chris RyanHost37:18

Uh, I thought this was a really cool episode, and I really liked how even though it's basically all shot within the cockpit of Wick's boat-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:31

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost37:32

...

Chris RyanHost37:32

the time it takes to be like here's the practical amount of space and time that needs to be covered.

Chris RyanHost37:40

He has to get to this buoy, but Wick can't go past-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:42

Chris RyanHost37:42

...

Chris RyanHost37:42

the buoy.

Chris RyanHost37:44

Tom can.

Chris RyanHost37:45

Richard needs to to be evaporated into bones.

Chris RyanHost37:49

But, you know, like you never leave anything, and it isn't an exposition dump, but you do get a sense of like, ooh, when's Wick gonna get off the boat, and how is, or how is Tom gonna be able to sail the dingy, and what's Wick-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:59

What are the rules?

Chris RyanHost38:00

Yeah, what are the rules? And it's still only 40 minutes or whatever it is, and it still flies by-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:06

Chris RyanHost38:06

... and has time for a B plot of Evan discovering that his mother at least didn't die during childbirth.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:13

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost38:13

If not, is, I would imagine, I'm starting to wonder if she's still alive somewhere, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost38:18

Well, I think...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:20

Are we now onto supposition corner? I mean, I, I, I think, I don't know if this is, like-

Chris RyanHost38:24

Supposition corner could be another recurring segment for us.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:27

I don't know if it's gonna go well for us.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:28

I don't know.

Chris RyanHost38:28

Not as good as your silence is deafening.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:30

That's a much-

Chris RyanHost38:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost38:31

That was awesome.

Chris RyanHost38:32

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:32

I'm a little spooked because this is the week because the Knicks swept their way to the finals-

Chris RyanHost38:37

I don't know what you're talking about

Andy GreenwaldHost38:38

... that all of the...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:38

It's a basketball team.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:39

That all of the video footage of NBA experts being like, "The Knicks overpaid for Jalen Brunson, and this is the not the kind of signing that will get you to the finals."

Chris RyanHost38:47

Of Becky Hammon being like, "You'll never win with a small guard."

Andy GreenwaldHost38:50

I'm just saying, I don't wanna, I wanna be very careful now that I know that these takes live forever.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:54

I didn't know that-

Chris RyanHost38:54

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost38:55

... until this week.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:55

I thought, I didn't know that all of these podcasts remained on Spotify.

Chris RyanHost38:58

Well, if you talked about-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:59

But-

Chris RyanHost38:59

... anything of consequence, I think that might matter.

Chris RyanHost39:01

But since we're mostly talking about-

Andy GreenwaldHost39:02

That's true

Chris RyanHost39:02

... did you ever watch Iron Man? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost39:04

That dude was an alien.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:05

Okay, that's fair.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:06

Um, no, so, like, well, okay, I could say this as a supposition corner, or I could say it about, like, the, the watching a show that is made by people who know what they're doing is just such a pleasure.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:16

But in the second episode when Tom locks himself into the hotel overnight-

Chris RyanHost39:21

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost39:21

... we do see weird paintings and scary paintings.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:24

And we see that also in the first episode when he's touring Basheer Soleddin through the, um-

Chris RyanHost39:28

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost39:28

...

Andy GreenwaldHost39:28

the museum or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:30

And I think when we saw that, we were like, well, Katie Dippold really learned from Parks and Rec about how funny historical shit can be.

Chris RyanHost39:36

Yes, yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:37

Uh, one of the paintings in the hotel is of what appears to be a toddler loose at sea.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:44

[laughs] And I, I, I, I feel like I'm not the only person, I've not read any coverage of the show yet, but, like, that is clearly the, uh, Richard's daughter who received the brooch-

Chris RyanHost39:55

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost39:55

... coming off of the boat, making it back to the mainland, and then beginning a bloodline that ends with, um, Tom's son.

Chris RyanHost40:01

Look at the big brain on Brad.

Chris RyanHost40:04

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost40:04

I, this is probably the most covered idea-

Chris RyanHost40:08

Damn, dog, that's my job is to go digging in the crates for that kind of stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:11

That just appeared-

Chris RyanHost40:12

That's good shit

Andy GreenwaldHost40:12

...

Andy GreenwaldHost40:12

in this crate.

Chris RyanHost40:13

You know, it's a-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:13

That was straight from my brain crate

Chris RyanHost40:14

... it's a testament to the there's many ways to watch this show.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:16

Mm.

Chris RyanHost40:16

And you can watch it with a scalpel, or-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:19

Chris RyanHost40:19

... you can watch it and you can sit there and, and, and just marvel at the, the comic tone and-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:25

Yeah

Chris RyanHost40:25

... and the, the spooks and the creaks in the night.

Chris RyanHost40:27

You know? It's great.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:28

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:28

I, I actually, I think, I mean this as praise.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:32

I, I don't care-

Chris RyanHost40:33

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost40:33

... that, that this kid is related to the founder of the island.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:36

Like, my enjoyment of the show is not dependent on lore.

Chris RyanHost40:38

I've seen some people be like, "They should have thrown the bones overboard," 'cause I think they bring Richard's bones back.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:42

Oh, there, there's, there's ways they should have behaved?

Chris RyanHost40:45

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost40:45

That's a cool way to watch television.

Chris RyanHost40:47

No, I mean, I, like, that will probably come back to literally haunt them-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:51

If-

Chris RyanHost40:51

... that they did not get rid of Richard's bones.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:54

And his Vienna sausages.

Chris RyanHost40:55

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:56

Uh, is-

Chris RyanHost40:58

If you were Richard-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:00

Uh-huh

Chris RyanHost41:00

... and you're, you're 330-some years old-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:03

Yeah

Chris RyanHost41:04

... isn't a gift shop blowing your mind? Aren't you just like, "Holy shit"?

Andy GreenwaldHost41:08

I'm on a T-shirt?

Chris RyanHost41:09

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost41:10

There's lights.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:11

I, I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:13

I was basically, you know, living alone in-

Chris RyanHost41:16

You're like, "The Knicks have gotten how far with a small guard?" [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost41:19

Dude, I, I'm just, like, I was living alone in London, one of the greatest cities in the world, for seven weeks, and I almost lost my mind.

Chris RyanHost41:25

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:26

He was in a box for 300 years, and he came out pretty chill.

Chris RyanHost41:29

I know.

Chris RyanHost41:29

Take that, Nate.

Chris RyanHost41:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost41:32

[laughs] I'm saying-

Chris RyanHost41:34

Maybe keep it together a little.

Chris RyanHost41:35

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost41:35

Yeah, chill out.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:37

Yeah, so I, uh, I was okay with that.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:41

He's a little bit, he's a little bit touched, you know? He's a little bit different kinda guy.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:44

Buried Alive, having a moment?

Chris RyanHost41:46

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:47

Hm.

Chris RyanHost41:48

Top five burials alive.

Chris RyanHost41:50

Alive burials.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:51

Don't list the other three.

Chris RyanHost41:52

The Bride.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:53

Oh, you wanna do the other three? 'Cause this could burn us if there's another one we're forgetting.

Chris RyanHost41:56

The Bride, the Ryan Reynolds movie, uh, Buried when he's-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:59

Which was a remake of a, like a Danish movie, right?

Chris RyanHost42:01

Of course you know that, yeah.

Chris RyanHost42:02

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:03

This is what it means to be...

Andy GreenwaldHost42:03

This is the international sign for being buried.

Chris RyanHost42:05

How would you know that?

Andy GreenwaldHost42:06

Because the movie's in Danish and I didn't understand any of it except when the guy was like this.

Chris RyanHost42:10

Who's another really good buried alive person?

Andy GreenwaldHost42:12

Uh, Nicky Santoro in Casino.

Chris RyanHost42:14

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:14

Spoiler, sorry.

Chris RyanHost42:17

Nicky's barely alive when he goes in.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:19

I don't think that's a distinction that's worth noting.

Chris RyanHost42:21

Yeah, doesn't, don't they hit him with a bat, like, 150 times?

Andy GreenwaldHost42:24

Yeah, but not, but he's alive.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:27

I'm not saying he's alive for long, but-

Chris RyanHost42:31

Burial alive, burials alive, hit us up, thewatch@spotify.com.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:35

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost42:35

Let us know your favorite.

Chris RyanHost42:36

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:37

[laughs] That'd be good

Chris RyanHost42:39

...

Chris RyanHost42:39

Evan, now you, you've talked a little bit about the, the links you're seeing.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:44

Mm.

Chris RyanHost42:45

The theories you're, you're theorizing about.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:46

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost42:50

Um, he is an example of another thing that this show does really well, which is it can have storylines that last 25 minutes-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:57

Yeah

Chris RyanHost42:57

... and are deeply satisfying.

Chris RyanHost42:59

It can have storylines that last multiple episodes, like, say, the mushroom trip, which obviously has aftereffects.

Chris RyanHost43:05

If you were Tom and you had just tripped your balls off-For multiple days.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:10

Mm.

Chris RyanHost43:10

You'd probably be like, "Am I still high?" When you meet a 300-year-old man.

Chris RyanHost43:15

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost43:16

Yeah, I-

Chris RyanHost43:17

But it turns out he shares something in common with him, 'cause of the mushrooms spoke to both of them.

Chris RyanHost43:21

The Evan plot is obviously, like, I guess, would you call this a season-long runner? Is this guy's rebellion-

Andy GreenwaldHost43:27

Yeah

Chris RyanHost43:27

... and search for self?

Andy GreenwaldHost43:28

Yeah, and by the way, Kingston Rumi-Saw, who plays the kid, is, is the presumed innocent cast having a moment.

Chris RyanHost43:34

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:34

Him and Chase Infinity both having good careers.

Chris RyanHost43:36

They are having a moment, yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:38

He's great.

Chris RyanHost43:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:38

Um, yeah, I think that it, it's, again, it's just the smart construction where it is often rebellious teenage characters are created purely to exist as stress and plot creators for the main character, but this kid is given the dignity of his own plot line.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:56

Like, there's a tiny moment in the episode where he is, you know, called out or caught by Bashir, the sheriff, and-

Chris RyanHost44:05

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost44:05

...

Andy GreenwaldHost44:05

he says to him, "Would it be cool if when I turned around to go back to my friends, I yelled, 'Fuck you, pig?'"

Chris RyanHost44:09

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:10

And Bashir says, "Absolutely not." But then he, but then the camera cuts back to him to smile about it, and it's like that's a human moment-

Chris RyanHost44:16

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost44:16

...

Andy GreenwaldHost44:16

in a show that would otherwise m- you know, might not need to have room for that.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:20

I do wanna digress again, which I know is off-brand for this podcast, especially today.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:24

But as our resident pharmaceuticals expert, you were asking-

Chris RyanHost44:30

Shh

Andy GreenwaldHost44:30

...

Andy GreenwaldHost44:30

Tom's experience in the previous ep- uh, two episodes ago, was that similar or dissimilar to when we met for the second time ever on the streets of South Philadelphia-

Chris RyanHost44:39

I don't think my mushroom experience-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:41

...

Andy GreenwaldHost44:41

in 1996

Chris RyanHost44:41

... was nearly as intense as those guys.

Chris RyanHost44:43

I think that they were dealing with some serious shit.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:45

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost44:45

Mine was, like, four hours long-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:47

Yeah

Chris RyanHost44:48

... that night.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost44:49

And largely enjoyable other than-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:53

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost44:53

... seeing the Death Star in the sky.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:56

Oh.

Chris RyanHost44:57

And maybe feeling like I was in Apocalypse Now.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:00

Somehow the Death Star has returned.

Chris RyanHost45:01

And then my buddy tried to climb into, um, like a two-by-two shelf in his closet.

Chris RyanHost45:07

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:08

How'd that go?

Chris RyanHost45:08

Didn't work.

Chris RyanHost45:09

I mean, but he was like, "I'm going in there." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:11

But what's weird is, and people who want the full story of this can listen to the, uh, Trainspotting episode of Rewatchables.

Chris RyanHost45:16

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:16

I think we get into this in great, great granular detail.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:18

But-

Chris RyanHost45:19

We should create a lore playlist for... [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:21

For my, my, my memory of what was weird about my experience was that w- me and my girlfriend at the time were walking downtown towards Tower Records to buy the A Tribe Called Quest record that came out that night.

Chris RyanHost45:33

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:33

But we were stopped-

Chris RyanHost45:33

Did you do the work? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:35

I do the work.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:36

#ally before that was a thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:38

Um, we were walk- and we were stopped by-

Chris RyanHost45:42

Is that the love movement? Or Beats Rhymes and Life?

Andy GreenwaldHost45:44

No, Beats Rhymes and Life.

Chris RyanHost45:44

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:44

We were stopped by police officers from walking down a street saying, "No big deal.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:48

Can you go around? There is a suspect on the loose on this street."

Chris RyanHost45:54

Did you ever find that guy? You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost45:55

And then a block later, I see your ass and you were just like, "Hey, what's up?"

Chris RyanHost45:59

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost46:00

Now, did you interact at all with the police activity that night?

Chris RyanHost46:03

Uh, if I did-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:04

'Cause I think that would've freaked you out

Chris RyanHost46:05

...

Chris RyanHost46:05

I, I don't think I did.

Chris RyanHost46:07

I did- I was aware of that activity.

Chris RyanHost46:10

But you know what?

Andy GreenwaldHost46:10

You were focused on the big picture in the sky.

Chris RyanHost46:12

I also think Philly PD, they try to keep the crowds moving.

Chris RyanHost46:14

You know what I mean? Like, it's-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:16

They always say it.

Chris RyanHost46:16

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost46:17

[laughs] Man, what a show.

Chris RyanHost46:18

I'm so excited for these last few episodes, so eight, nine, and 10 still to come, uh, over the next three weeks.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:23

As a segue, 'cause we're gonna talk about Spider-Noir in a second, and, and Spider-Noir does not deserve all of these strays, but it's just, it's what we got this week.

Chris RyanHost46:30

It is what it is.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:31

I wanna uplift Widow's Bay even further just to say that this show exists because Katie Dippold was passionate about a story, and a vibe, and a tone, and a type of show that she wanted to make, and she found incredible partners who were, um, open-minded and excited to join in and bring their talents, in Hiro Murai and everyone else that she assembled to make the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:52

It only comes from that relatively pure creative act.

Chris RyanHost46:56

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:58

Her...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:58

Which is rare in movies and in TV these days, where a lot of what we see is an example of people doing their absolute best work to clear a relatively arbitrary bar that has been set for them by rights holders or development executives or network executives or whatever.

Chris RyanHost47:15

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:15

That's part of the job.

Chris RyanHost47:17

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:17

Um, and it can be done well.

Chris RyanHost47:19

You guys are all free to write novels.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:20

Yeah, [laughs] exactly.

Chris RyanHost47:22

You know? It's like...

Chris RyanHost47:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost47:22

For free.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:23

To be subsumed by generative-

Apple Card – 2% Daily Cash Back47:25 – 47:58

Chris RyanHost47:25

This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

Chris RyanHost47:28

[chime] Hey, you could be earning 2% daily cash back on that purchase [chime] and that one [chime] and even that one.

Chris RyanHost47:35

That's because Apple Card users earn 2% daily cash back on every purchase, including everyday items they buy online or in store when using their Apple Card with Apple Pay.

Chris RyanHost47:46

Not an Apple Card customer? You can apply in the Wallet app on iPhone.

Chris RyanHost47:50

Subject to credit approval.

Chris RyanHost47:51

Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch.

Chris RyanHost47:55

Terms and more at apple.co/benefits.

Brooks Running – Let’s Run There47:58 – 48:21

Chris RyanHost47:58

This episode is brought to you by Brooks.

Chris RyanHost48:01

Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

Chris RyanHost48:06

The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line.

Chris RyanHost48:14

Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going.

Chris RyanHost48:19

Let's run there.

Chris RyanHost48:20

Learn more at brooksrunning.com

Segue into Spider-Noir Talk48:22 – 48:33

Andy GreenwaldHost48:22

Of AI.

Chris RyanHost48:25

I think this is actually segues nicely into Spider-Noir, as you alluded to.

Chris RyanHost48:28

So Spider-Noir is a new show, uh, executive produced by Lord Miller on Amazon Prime.

Amazon’s ‘Spider-Noir’ & Streaming Strategy48:33 – 1:08:04

Chris RyanHost48:33

Whole season's already up.

Chris RyanHost48:34

It is a, uh, extension, I guess, or a riff on a character that Nicolas Cage played in Across the Spider-Verse, I believe.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:45

Yeah, in the Spider-Verse movies-

Chris RyanHost48:46

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost48:46

...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:46

he voices a version of this character.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:48

I, I do think it's a sad sign of how cooked we are that all of the press for the show makes it clear that this is not the same character.

Chris RyanHost48:54

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:54

Because it could be.

Chris RyanHost48:56

I, y- I-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:56

This is another iteration or expression of the idea of that character.

Chris RyanHost48:59

It's, it's really weird that, like, they, that they are making that m- Like, it's almost like they wanna keep the sanctity of these animated blockbusters-And do like a spinoff of it, but not explicitly because, like, what if it doesn't work? We don't wanna damage the brand.

Chris RyanHost49:16

I don't, I don't know

Andy GreenwaldHost49:17

Well, also that it's more...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:19

It's, but it's even more than that.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:20

It's that there is an established canon to th- these fanciful and honestly brilliant Spider-Verse movies that contain the idea that there are thousands of s- spider people.

Chris RyanHost49:31

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost49:31

And sometimes spider horses and cars, and that each one has a very distinct identity.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:35

And so to protect the gentle, uh, souls of these devoted fans, they have to be, make it clear that this Spider-Noir is not the same Spider-Noir.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:43

There's just more than one.

Chris RyanHost49:45

Okay.

Chris RyanHost49:45

Gotcha.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:46

Are you feeling better about that?

Chris RyanHost49:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost49:47

This is a show set after World War I.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:49

One

Chris RyanHost49:50

Uh, and it stars Nicolas Cage as Ben Reilly, who is this, uh, sort of retired Spider-Man-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:57

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost49:58

... now private detective-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:00

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost50:01

... investigating a, a- an honestly, like, beyond synopsis s- set of missing persons cases and, and trying to track people down and trying to get blackmail and-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:12

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost50:13

... interacts with, um, several, I would assume, canonical Spider-Man-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:17

Iterations of them

Chris RyanHost50:18

... iterations-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:19

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost50:19

... of Spider-Man villains.

Chris RyanHost50:21

It is an incredible cast of-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:24

Truly

Chris RyanHost50:24

...

Chris RyanHost50:24

Cage, Lamorne Morris, uh, Brendan Gleeson, Lukas Haas.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:28

Lijun.

Chris RyanHost50:29

Lijun.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:30

Li Jun Li.

Chris RyanHost50:30

Li Jun Li, um, Cameron Britton, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:34

Your guy, your guy Jack Huston.

Chris RyanHost50:35

What, the list goes on.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:36

We'll get to him in a minute.

Chris RyanHost50:38

You ever watch Bor- Boardwalk?

Andy GreenwaldHost50:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:41

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost50:41

The whole thing?

Andy GreenwaldHost50:42

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:42

Do you remember Grantland?

Chris RyanHost50:43

We used to do the damn thing back then.

Chris RyanHost50:45

We put seven shows up-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:47

Yep

Chris RyanHost50:47

... and we talked about them.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:48

Who put the shows up, the podcast?

Chris RyanHost50:50

The TV networks.

Chris RyanHost50:51

They were like, "Here's seven TV shows this year.

Chris RyanHost50:53

Enjoy."

Andy GreenwaldHost50:53

Oh, yes.

Chris RyanHost50:54

[laughs] And we were like, "Yes."

Andy GreenwaldHost50:56

I wasn't.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:56

I was like, "Actually, this is problematic," and people hated me for it.

Chris RyanHost50:59

Boardwalk Empire?

Andy GreenwaldHost51:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost51:00

Was that the first time you snowflaked out?

Andy GreenwaldHost51:03

I didn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost51:03

First of all-

Chris RyanHost51:04

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost51:04

...

Andy GreenwaldHost51:04

I've been snowflaking out since I first watched the triathlon in 1986.

Chris RyanHost51:08

Look, what do, who will think about the sea life that these people are disturbing?

Andy GreenwaldHost51:12

Oh, their legs are damp.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:13

Um, who wants to sit in a wet bike seat? Um-

Chris RyanHost51:17

That is actually like a pet peeve of mine.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:20

See?

Chris RyanHost51:20

Uh, wet, wet swimsuit, shorts on a bike seat, chafing.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:24

Thank you-

Chris RyanHost51:25

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost51:25

... for speaking your truth.

Chris RyanHost51:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:26

Usually you hang me out to dry with this stuff.

Chris RyanHost51:27

But the way I say it sounds kinda cool and-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:29

It does sound cool

Chris RyanHost51:29

... and, like, normal.

Chris RyanHost51:30

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost51:30

You know what it also s- I know.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:31

It also suggests that your childhood was, like, fucking, um, Goonies all the time.

Chris RyanHost51:35

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost51:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost51:36

And I was just alone in my backyard going like this, except didn't have a backyard.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:40

Anyway, um, no, Boardwalk Empire, I was like, it was kind of like, uh, uh, prestige karaoke even then.

Chris RyanHost51:47

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:47

It had some moments.

Chris RyanHost51:48

The reason why Widows Bay is able to pull off the two episodes that they did this week is because of choices, confidence in those choices, and commitment to those choices.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:58

Okay.

Chris RyanHost52:00

I think that nothing sums up how I feel about Spider-Noir, the two episodes that I watched, and, and sort of some light scrubbing through some of their episodes.

Chris RyanHost52:11

Nothing sums up how I feel about it more than the fact that when you click play on the Amazon Prime Video app or, or site, you are offered a choice between true hue color-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:22

Yeah

Chris RyanHost52:22

... or authentic black and white.

Chris RyanHost52:24

Now, there's a probably a reaction some people have where they're like, "Cool, I love choice." I want, I want them to choose.

Chris RyanHost52:35

I don't actually like this.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:36

Present the show you want me to see.

Chris RyanHost52:38

And I think it's-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:40

Have some...

Andy GreenwaldHost52:40

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost52:40

...

Chris RyanHost52:40

I think it's indicative of how I ultimately feel about this show, that neither looks very good.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:45

I agree.

Chris RyanHost52:45

Uh, the black and white is not high contrast enough for my taste.

Chris RyanHost52:48

It doesn't have the atmosphere of old noir movies that I think it's looking for.

Chris RyanHost52:54

It kinda has a monochrome to it.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:56

Yes.

Chris RyanHost52:56

And the true hue looks like running Sin City through a color, uh, like colorizations program to, like, pop colors.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:07

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost53:07

And I kinda found it really distracting.

Chris RyanHost53:10

Um, and I, I have to say-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:12

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost53:13

...

Chris RyanHost53:13

I, I don't know if I've really ever talked about this.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:15

Oh.

Chris RyanHost53:17

I'm not a huge Nicolas Cage guy.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:19

Wow.

Chris RyanHost53:20

I like him.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:20

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost53:21

I like him at his peaks.

Chris RyanHost53:23

I like him at his-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:24

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost53:24

... his lynch weirdness.

Chris RyanHost53:26

I love Raising Arizona.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:27

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost53:27

I love Wild at Heart.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:29

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost53:29

I love, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:30

Moonstruck

Chris RyanHost53:31

...

Chris RyanHost53:31

I love The Rock and Con Air.

Chris RyanHost53:35

But I am not, like, everything this guy does is so fascinating and, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:39

I agree with that

Chris RyanHost53:39

... and awesome.

Chris RyanHost53:41

And do you feel like he's, like, kinda playing with one hand behind his back in this game, like, or something? Like, or, or I don't know.

Chris RyanHost53:50

Why am I, like, I'm, like, way more into Brendan Gleeson and Lukas Haas in this show than I am Nicolas Cage?

Andy GreenwaldHost53:55

I, I feel like I'm gonna meet you halfway on this.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:58

I think that Nicolas Cage being the star of the show and making the choices that he makes is probably the most interesting thing about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:05

Um, that said, I agree that it ultimately is not that interesting.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:10

I think it's fun seeing an actor who I think is, this is not a controversial opinion, hasn't, hasn't had laser focus for swaths of the last two decades in terms of his career choices and-

Chris RyanHost54:23

He's got, got some notes to pay off, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:24

It's true.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:25

Um, so to see him kind of, like, relatively locked into something, um, that he could do quite easily is amusing.

Chris RyanHost54:33

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:34

And there are moments, like there's a moment in the second episode when he, when Ben Reilly pretends to be a plumber, and so it's Nicolas Cage pretending to be someone pretending to be someone, and you feel the liveliness of it that pops even in the, I agree, the kind of cloudy black and white.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:48

Sidebar, like, if you wanna see an argument for black and white in the 2020s, watch Ripley.

Chris RyanHost54:53

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:54

Which is every frame is so beautifully considered and composed that there's no other way that you could imagine seeing it.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:00

And I would say, I don't think this is-

Chris RyanHost55:01

Brother Elswick goat season right there

Andy GreenwaldHost55:02

...

Andy GreenwaldHost55:02

but it's also, it's not anecdotal to say this.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:04

This was, like, Garrett Bash, who's the producer of that and producer of many, many other FX shows, um, works with Taika Waititi a lot.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:11

Um-Basically said that they just shot it one way, and then they told Showtime, who they were making it for, "That's what we did." Because Showtime was like, "Can you give us options?"

Chris RyanHost55:20

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:21

And I think giving options is a hallmark of a successful contemporary creative career, but it is not necessarily the quickest or straightest path to great creative solutions.

Chris RyanHost55:33

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:33

So in the case of the show, um, Oren Uziel is the showrunner, and I think that he has done a really, really solid job doing something that I'm not sure is possible to do in a way that would satisfy us.

Chris RyanHost55:47

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:48

And w- and what I mean is he is clearly a talented writer and clearly a talented storyteller and clearly confident in the ways that are necessary to get something like this over the finish line and get it made.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:59

Um, but some of the things that are most on display here is a very contemporary writerly skill, which is tightrope walking, which is finding or trying to find a healthy balance between the two great flavors that don't always necessarily taste great together.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:14

You can see the indecision in the, the options of how to screen it, but for me the most damning indecision of the show is, is this a noir show or is this a superhero show? And I know which side I find more interesting, and I found it as I watched a couple episodes of it, the constant re- safe return to the home base of, but actually that guy's The Sandman.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:32

Actually it's just gonna be a superhero fight.

Chris RyanHost56:33

If he gets pushed off the roof, he can always sling some webs to...

Chris RyanHost56:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:36

I, I found that...

Andy GreenwaldHost56:38

I, I don't even know what the word is.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:39

It's not disappointing.

Chris RyanHost56:40

No, I know, but it's just like the-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:41

I just found it non- non-elevating.

Chris RyanHost56:42

I think that because of the dominance of superhero and comic book stories over the last 20 years-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:49

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost56:49

... you and I have, have often said, like, "Use it as a Trojan horse to make the thing you really wanted to make." And I, I, I don't back off of that, but if a guy gets shoved off a building, it's supposed to be a dramatic moment where you're like, "Is this it for this character?"

Andy GreenwaldHost57:06

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost57:06

And, or, you know, even if he's just at the edge of the building, 'cause that's a place I'm sure there's dozens of noir moments where guy's got a gun on our hero and he's standing at the edge of a roof and it's just like, what's gonna happen? I think that if you can throw webs from your wrists to save your own life, it kinda just robs the dramatic moment, and that's something that comes up a couple of times in these two episodes that I've watched.

Chris RyanHost57:30

I also...

Chris RyanHost57:31

I mean, as noir storytelling goes, I have found it a little bit too in between-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:37

Yes

Chris RyanHost57:37

... one long story and episodic stories of like, "And now I have another case this week," you know? Um, it's a cool idea, and I applaud them being able to do it.

Chris RyanHost57:49

There's also a little bit of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. stuff happening here-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:52

Chris RyanHost57:52

... where I'm like, you guys, is it Spider-Man or, or what? Like, you know, like l-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:57

Choose.

Chris RyanHost57:58

Just, just...

Chris RyanHost57:58

If, if this is...

Chris RyanHost57:59

Like, let these guys cook.

Chris RyanHost58:01

Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:01

Yeah

Chris RyanHost58:01

... like let them have the toolbox-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:04

I, I-

Chris RyanHost58:04

Or don't, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost58:04

To me, what would be interesting...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:06

I, I hear your point about like it just...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:08

It's kind of a, a cheat code to reduce stakes if everybody can survive anything.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:13

The thing that, that I was disappointed to see but not surprised to see was that the, eh- that everyone has superpowers.

Chris RyanHost58:19

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:20

What's interesting to me about the concept would be about a guy who's a private eye who is basically cursed with abilities that other people don't have, and then what do you do with it? Like, the idea that he could...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:32

I mean, 'cause, eh, it is a classic trope of detective fiction and noir that the detective takes more damage than anyone could possibly survive-

Chris RyanHost58:40

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost58:40

... and keeps coming.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:42

He would have maybe a more legitimate reason for being able to get back up again despite the bruises, but the first person he encounters in his detective mission can ignite himself-

Chris RyanHost58:51

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost58:52

... on fire, which is immediately makes me just...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:55

That, to me, that flattened the stakes.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:58

If, if there's gonna be two shows where there are the normals, and Lamorne, Lamorne Morris is doing a great job playing Robbie Robertson, another canonical journalist character from the Spider-Verse.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:06

He fits into this world like a glove and is having a lot of fun, and the scenes with him and Nicolas Cage pop for me.

Chris RyanHost59:11

Yep.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:12

But he's existing down here with the normals, and Ben Reilly's up here with the, the super-powered freak shows, and that is less...

Andy GreenwaldHost59:20

That, I find that less interesting.

Chris RyanHost59:21

Did you like the stuff with Gleeson and Haas, the Silvermane stuff?

Andy GreenwaldHost59:24

I like those actors.

Chris RyanHost59:25

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:26

I, I, I like those actors.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:27

I, I, I think my, my biggest disappointment is, um, as television shows' budgets have gone up and visual spectacle has gone up, the opportunity to really, to, to make the writing, for lack of a better word, more muscular and kind of the star has gone down.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:45

And certainly there are plenty of things that are overwritten, but, um, the idea of the writing being the star of a show is not really in vogue.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:54

Everybody wants to have room to have the, the banter that goes bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then the scene starts.

Chris RyanHost1:00:00

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:01

That bang bang is noir.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:03

That's noir dialogue.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:04

And so I wish there had been more opportunities to play that out because eh, eh, instead it kinda fell flat to me.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:11

You have the trappings of what it's supposed to be with Li Jun Li as a, you know, as an ingenue.

Chris RyanHost1:00:17

Femme fatale, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:18

Femme fatale.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:18

And you have Ben Reilly as the put-upon, um-

Chris RyanHost1:00:21

Gumshoe

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:22

... gumshoe who wanders into her place of business where he doesn't belong, and he's, he's declassing the joint.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:27

And then you have dialogue where he's like, "Well, a singer has to know all the numbers.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:31

Maybe a detective has to know all the answers." That's not that snappy.

Chris RyanHost1:00:35

Mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:35

That is the, a simulacrum of snappiness, you know? So I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:38

But again, there are a lot of mouths to feed when you have a show like this.

Chris RyanHost1:00:42

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:42

And you know, I, I, I wanna be transparent 'cause we touched on this when we brought up the trailer.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:46

Like, this was, this was something that, that I pitched on and I was involved in, and I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because I did not get this job.

Chris RyanHost1:00:53

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:53

I did not deserve to get this job, and Oren Uziel did a much better job than I ever would've.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:58

Um, but it was interesting to be inside of the process of how stuff like this gets made, and truly the way stuff like this gets made is off of the success of the Spider-Verse movies or-

Chris RyanHost1:01:10

I think that anybody who works...

Chris RyanHost1:01:12

I, uh, most people who work in 2026 probably know the experience of, wow, there's a lot of people on this Zoom now.

Chris RyanHost1:01:18

How did this happen? You know what I mean?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:19

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:01:19

And it's like, it's not, that's not a bad thing.

Chris RyanHost1:01:22

Nobody involved probably has ill intentions, and you know, the way that those things kinda bloat is naturalBut there, you could probably do, like, a, a hard, a clear-eyed assessment of, like, what's this person, what's the...

Chris RyanHost1:01:39

Like, what is the reason why this person is now giving me notes about this stuff or whatever? And it's, you're right, part of the job of the 21st century screenwriter/showrunner is to p- please all the different-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:51

Well-

Chris RyanHost1:01:51

... stakeholders.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:52

A- and because the genesis of this is Spider-Verse was a big hit, and so Sony and Lord and Miller, um, sold a package of Spider-Verse shows, creatives unattached, to Amazon.

Chris RyanHost1:02:04

Yep.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:05

And the first one, which was Silk, went through two or three showrunners over a period of years, and eventually frittered out, never got made.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:13

The process that I was a part of, uh, for this one frittered out years ago and was stopped, um, and then restarted a year later, and, and then this was the development process of it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:24

And, but even in my limited experience, like, Lord and Miller are, t- I mean, I think they're geniuses with what they do.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:31

Uh, no one does what they do, and it's incredible to watch the final product of.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:35

Um, they are also creators.

Chris RyanHost1:02:38

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:38

So to walk into a process that's like, "We, we have these toys.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:42

What do you wanna do with them?" Because Amazon's gonna make the show if we hit the target that we haven't been able to fully articulate yet, and then you also have the stakeholders who wanted a superhero show, and the sup- the, the stakeholders who wanted to be involved, but maybe not as involved-

Chris RyanHost1:02:56

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:56

... and then there's the Marvel presence, and then there's Amy Pascal, and, like, that's really, really hard.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:01

So I bring that up not to spill personal stuff, just to say, like, to get this show on the air looking really good is fucking amazing.

Chris RyanHost1:03:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:10

It's just ultimately n- not something I think I, I think we wanna spend eight hours watching, and it's incredible that it's there.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:18

All of these good intentions, good performance, and good thinking that went into it.

Chris RyanHost1:03:22

What do you think is the logic behind making it a binge?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:26

Um, I have no idea.

Chris RyanHost1:03:28

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:28

I, I, I mean, the only thing that I would say is maybe am- like, if you watch The Boys, th- or, uh, y- if you remember how The Boys was released-

Chris RyanHost1:03:37

Yes, three, one, one, one or whatever, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:39

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:39

but the first season was a binge.

Chris RyanHost1:03:41

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:41

So I think that Amazon has some internal metrics that are like, for this type of genre show or this fan base, it's better to give it to them.

Chris RyanHost1:03:49

Well, it seems like, yeah, if I remember correctly, I think, I think Off Campus, which is a big hit for them, went up as a binge.

Chris RyanHost1:03:55

I imagine any successive-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:56

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:03:57

... seasons of Off Campus-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:58

They'll pull back

Chris RyanHost1:03:58

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:58

I could see that being pulled back.

Chris RyanHost1:03:59

I think the Summer I Turned Pretty happened.

Chris RyanHost1:04:01

I mean, it's, it's been interesting to watch that network, I wouldn't say stumble into, 'cause I'm sure it was very, very conscientious, like, kinda owning YA and owning-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:13

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:04:13

... like, young female romance stories.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:16

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:04:17

They have, like, a whole vertical there where it's like obsession is in session, and it's like not only is it a bunch of originals, but they've curated all these, like, movies-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:25

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:04:25

... that they think fit into this aesthetic.

Chris RyanHost1:04:28

I wonder whether or not they'll continue to do stuff like that.

Chris RyanHost1:04:32

And Peter Friedlander, uh, you know, who we remember from Netflix, is in charge over there now.

Chris RyanHost1:04:38

But, like, I, it'll be interesting to see if that streamer in particular becomes l- less about release dates and more about, like, centers of interest, verticals basically.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:50

I think that's a s- that's a, I don't know if it's smart.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:52

I think it is a, um, clever and defensible programming strategy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:57

But I would say that the executive mandates and executives themselves have moved around so much at a lot of these streamers and services that even what we s- we have done podcasts where we, where we were like, "Ah, Paramount Plus' central argument for existence is coming into focus."

Chris RyanHost1:05:14

Yes, right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:15

It's working for them.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:16

They found a couple things that work-

Chris RyanHost1:05:17

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:18

... and they're building from them, mostly Taylor Sheridan and, and s- just the shows that fit into that, um, aesthetic.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:25

Taylor Sheridan's gone, uh, under the new, uh, uh, leadership there.

Chris RyanHost1:05:29

Co- cover...

Chris RyanHost1:05:29

I mean, Dutton's doing very well and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:31

No, I, I mean, it continues-

Chris RyanHost1:05:32

... you know, I think he's going to finish out a couple of shows, but yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:34

For sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:35

Duttons-

Chris RyanHost1:05:35

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:35

... he- Dutton Ranch is a huge hit.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:36

I'm just saying that, like, he is now moving to Peacock, and so what will Peacock do? Similarly, um, you know, Amazon seemed like it was finding some, some, some fertile ground with the YA stuff, and then also the [laughs] MA stuff.

Chris RyanHost1:05:51

The Ter- The Terminal List, and Reacher, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:53

And-

Chris RyanHost1:05:53

... and Jack Ryan, and, like, dad stuff, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:55

And we don't fully know what their direction is gonna be under Peter Friedlander, but I thought it w- but I noted with interest, and we've talked about this briefly with, with Kaya, not the show itself, but the release strategy, that Terminal List I think has been on the shelf and is finally getting a release date for its second season, um, in October.

Chris RyanHost1:06:10

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:11

So if they wanted to keep pumping that well until it was dry, they haven't really done it, and that might signal that that's not what they're doing.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:17

So I, I don't know the, the, the-

Chris RyanHost1:06:19

They just wanna get Terminal List closer to midterms.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:22

Oh, yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:06:23

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:23

Or, or they're trying to read the electorate.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:25

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:06:25

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:27

Do you think that the plight of the white Afrikaner farmer is, like, gonna be a real driving issue in Maine?

Chris RyanHost1:06:32

I, I just wonder, this is probably a topic for a d- a d- a different show, but I wonder if in...

Chris RyanHost1:06:38

I, I know that when we've talked to Casey Bloys, like, when he- Casey came on the show-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:42

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:06:42

...

Chris RyanHost1:06:42

he talked about how he was like, "I'm on 20- spring of '28."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:06:46

I'm, I'm planning out-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:48

Right

Chris RyanHost1:06:48

...

Chris RyanHost1:06:48

HBO has that thing where there's this baton pass from one show to the other over the course of a year.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:53

They try to do that, yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:06:54

There's usually, like, a couple of weeks of, like, docs or event programming-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:57

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:06:57

... or whatever, but, you know, you usually have, like, a Sunday night, like, show that to hang your, your laundry on.

Chris RyanHost1:07:04

And I just wonder whether or not as people increasingly find themselves detached from the cable bundle-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:11

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:07:12

... and also watching things almost entirely on their own schedule and entirely up to their own tastes, in the same way that, like, I know Drake put three albums out last week, but in some ways I don't feel like that happened, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:26

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:07:26

Because in my algorithm, it's just not a huge deal.

Chris RyanHost1:07:30

Do you basically get away from the release schedule as a-Paradigm for television and make it more about, like, what we want is to have stuff there so that when people have found-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:40

Chris RyanHost1:07:40

... a vibe that they like, they can continue to watch things.

Chris RyanHost1:07:43

Netflix has explored this, for sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:45

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:07:46

But Amazon and their really strong links to, uh, the publishing industry, I think is exploiting their kind of ability to be like, "This book is hot, make it into a show.

Chris RyanHost1:07:56

This book is hot-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:57

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:07:57

... make it into a show." So it'd be, it'll be interesting to be talking about this deep into the Talarico administration, you know? [laughs]

From Streaming Talk to TV Recap Hour1:08:04 – 1:10:26

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:04

Yeah, I, I, I can't wait.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:05

I think that one of the less talked about in terms of the front-facing, like actually watching TV show storylines is, are these streamers better serve programming for untapped viewers who will sign up for the service?

Chris RyanHost1:08:19

Uh-huh

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:19

Or i-

Chris RyanHost1:08:20

Making deep obsessives of the people who already have it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:22

Yeah, and I think that was the Star Trek strategy that Paramount was doing for a while, of like, "Our floor is the however many people watch everything that says Star Trek on it, and we know that they'll pay for our service-

Chris RyanHost1:08:32

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:32

... 'cause that's what we have." Um, there was some really interesting reporting in the last month, and also a good episode of The Town Podcast about this, which is like Peacock saying, "We're getting closer to profitability," and then looking under the hood and what does that mean.

Chris RyanHost1:08:44

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:44

And the most interesting thing about that to me wasn't the, the, the rise in subscribers and what the NBA has done for them, it's the fact that like apparen- I, I, I'm paraphrasing here, but that the churn rate was still very, very high for that service.

Chris RyanHost1:08:56

Of people signing up and then like...

Chris RyanHost1:08:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:57

They sign up for the NBA season and then they sign off.

Chris RyanHost1:08:58

It'll be interesting to see how many people cancel after NBA.

Chris RyanHost1:09:01

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:01

And I, so the, so maybe the tier isn't the subscriber number, it's the stability number of like how many people you maintain from the people you get at hot times of the year.

Chris RyanHost1:09:10

It's one of the reasons why I've always been confused when there seems to be overlapping Taylor Sheridan shows, 'cause I'm like, "Couldn't you just spread these out so that there's 12 months of Taylor Sheridan shows and you don't have anybody ever trying to cancel?"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:20

That sounds like a, like a YB.

Chris RyanHost1:09:22

That's a me-

AdvertiserAd1:09:22

The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with FanDuel Predicts.

AdvertiserAd1:09:28

Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses.

AdvertiserAd1:09:34

Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner.

AdvertiserAd1:09:38

AdvertiserAd1:09:41

Offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant.

AdvertiserAd1:09:45

18 plus.

AdvertiserAd1:09:45

Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

AdvertiserAd1:09:49

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools.

AdvertiserAd1:09:54

Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's Gut Health Challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurts a day for two weeks and see if you feel a difference.

AdvertiserAd1:10:01

With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual.

AdvertiserAd1:10:09

Try Activia today.

AdvertiserAd1:10:10

Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort.

Chris RyanHost1:10:20

Problem.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:21

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:23

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:10:23

Let's talk a little bit about Top Chef and, and just do some After Dark, huh?

‘Euphoria’ Penultimate Episode Reactions1:10:26 – 1:19:46

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:26

Yeah, do you wanna ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:27

So we, should we just wrap up Euphoria?

Chris RyanHost1:10:30

Oh, yeah, let's-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:31

Next week?

Chris RyanHost1:10:31

You can keep Euphoria.

Chris RyanHost1:10:32

Well, I, I like After Dark Fre- Euphoria.

Chris RyanHost1:10:34

It mirrors Nate's last moments.

Chris RyanHost1:10:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:36

Well, should we...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:37

I mean, we can touch on it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:38

I feel like we should hit it harder next week because-

Chris RyanHost1:10:39

Yeah, but let's just, uh, I wanted to just say I, I am up to date on Euphoria, as are you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:44

I am up to date on Euphoria.

Chris RyanHost1:10:45

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:45

I'd like to text you to let you know I am

Chris RyanHost1:10:47

...

Chris RyanHost1:10:47

this is the penultimate episode of the season, and likely the series, I would imagine.

Chris RyanHost1:10:52

Um, and for the first time-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:54

Hmm

Chris RyanHost1:10:56

... perhaps in this show's history, I was bored.

Chris RyanHost1:10:59

I, I, I've been using-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:00

Whoa

Chris RyanHost1:11:00

... that as a bit of, like a little bit of a metric, but I just found despite the intensity of the episode-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:07

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:11:07

...

Chris RyanHost1:11:07

I felt like I had seen these scenes before, like there had been...

Chris RyanHost1:11:11

We were-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:11

Chris RyanHost1:11:11

... repeating a lot of beats.

Chris RyanHost1:11:13

And I thought cinematically there was some brilliant stuff in it.

Chris RyanHost1:11:17

I would watch Colman Domingo and Zendaya-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:19

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:11:20

... as I have in the special that they did, where the two of them talk about addiction and, and spirituality and salvation and redemption extensively.

Chris RyanHost1:11:28

Uh, I think that their relationship, Ali, Ali and, and Rue's relationship is fascinating and I thought Ali's, you know, sort of origin story and him going through the pandemic, losing people that he's the, um, sponsor of, was heartbreaking and fascinating.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:44

Not only heartbreaking.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:46

One of the things, I mean this as a complimen- compliment about this season of television, is that there have been a number of fully formed, pretty compelling television shows just tossed out on the table-

Chris RyanHost1:11:56

The, the cutting-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:56

... like stuff you find in a pocket

Chris RyanHost1:11:58

... and the shooti-...

Chris RyanHost1:11:58

Like, Natasha Lyonne makes a cameo as, as a prostitute living with Ali for a while.

Chris RyanHost1:12:04

Like, the cutting and, like, the banter and the energy and the electricity coursing through that-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:11

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:12:12

... is absent when Maddy is on, like, page, like, like the 70th iteration of I'm a pimp but I'm also a manager's assistant, but now I'm a pimp again.

Chris RyanHost1:12:25

And I, I think ultimately, like, Levinson probably had to, like, unite the threads-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:31

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:12:31

...

Chris RyanHost1:12:31

in some ways.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:32

I didn't know he was going to try, honestly.

Chris RyanHost1:12:34

The Lexi narcs out everybody [laughs] and then Maddy narcs out everybody thing, I, I just really hit my head against that.

Chris RyanHost1:12:41

I was like, I, I don't think these people would be that naive.

Chris RyanHost1:12:44

I don't think-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:44

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:12:44

...

Chris RyanHost1:12:44

Maddy would be so naive as to, like, idly tell Alamo that Rue is now working for the DEA.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:51

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:12:52

That's fucking crazy.

Chris RyanHost1:12:54

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:54

But didn't you feel it coming when she just brought it up herse- when Rue blurted it out?

Chris RyanHost1:12:59

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:12:59

And I felt it coming when that scene went on for a long time, being like, "Obviously this is going to get away from Lexi as she just passes this along."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:07

A- a- and not to carry water for it, I was starting to feel like in this episode there is a version of, or there is a defense of the show baked into the idea that the Holly, the, the Hollywood writer from the comfort of her very nice apartment with beautiful old film posters that she clearly bought at, on Posterati, great place to browse-

Chris RyanHost1:13:25

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:25

... no ads, but I like it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:27

Um, that all of this madness is springing from her imagination in a way.

Chris RyanHost1:13:33

Well, and that was a s- season two-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:35

Hmm

Chris RyanHost1:13:35

... e- element, was like, you know, Lexi writing a play about-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:39

Right

Chris RyanHost1:13:39

... season two, basically.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:40

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:40

So, okay.

Chris RyanHost1:13:41

Uh-But yeah, I, I think I had n- the last time we talked about Euphoria, I had sounded the alarm that, or maybe I, when I was kind of monologuing-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:49

Chris RyanHost1:13:49

... about it, which point I-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:50

On the podcast-

Chris RyanHost1:13:51

Perhaps there's-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:51

... or in your life?

Chris RyanHost1:13:52

On the podcast where I mistakenly said that Jesus Christ saw the burning bush and not Moses, which goes to show you what Quaker education does for your, [laughs] your biblical studies.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:00

Was that the light within?

Chris RyanHost1:14:01

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:02

Was it the burning bush?

Chris RyanHost1:14:02

I, uh, I just thought that the crime stuff was starting to reach its, it was getting a little high up in the atmosphere and losing oxygen and, and I, I think this has been proven true.

Chris RyanHost1:14:14

Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:14

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:14:15

... bringing together Alamo, Nas, Nate, Maddie-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:21

Mm-hmm, Cassie

Chris RyanHost1:14:22

...

Chris RyanHost1:14:23

Cassie, and by extension Rue and the Laurie stuff, I just think it's this like he has to do that to end the show, but it, it, it just didn't feel as graceful as some of the other moments that this series has for me.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:36

I think the biggest compliment you could give the show is that it is a wildly expensive, wildly audacious, improvisatory exercise by someone who had, not a blank check, but had a lot of open road and a lot of big stars and a very small window in which to get them all together and to see what happens.

Chris RyanHost1:14:54

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:55

It's diminishing returns in terms of just, um, compelling entertainment, I think is, is fair to say.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:02

I, I do wanna just circle back to the idea that Colman Domingo is so alive in everything that he does, and the show, I don't know if it's a full show, but about a, uh, recovering addict, uh, who has become a sponsor trying to keep people alive during COVID, I would watch that show.

Chris RyanHost1:15:19

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:20

And the, the, the short story version of it we got was incredibly compelling, and also has something...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:26

This is not really a fair audience thing to do, I think, consistently, but it, it's, but sometimes I feel like you can feel a creator lean in, you know-

Chris RyanHost1:15:38

Oh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:38

... to things that-

Chris RyanHost1:15:39

For sure

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:39

... that are touching the third rail.

Chris RyanHost1:15:40

I mean, the Alamo origin story too, I'm sure you...

Chris RyanHost1:15:43

I know that you were, like, probably rolling your eyes a little bit at that, but I thought that had energy and I, I thought it had POV, it had like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:51

It had juice.

Chris RyanHost1:15:52

Yeah, it had juice.

Chris RyanHost1:15:53

And so-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:54

And, and, and that is a marked, uh, distinction I would say from the scenes that increasingly to me feel like outtakes from, like, a Bugsy Malone movie where kids are playing dress-up.

Chris RyanHost1:16:03

Well, and then you get to the Nate part, which is just, like...

Chris RyanHost1:16:07

I, I, I, I suppose on one hand I could make a defense for it where it's like, you know what, like, there is no such thing as character armor on this show, and, uh, or plot armor or whatever the term is.

Chris RyanHost1:16:18

But, like, just because it's Jacob Elordi doesn't mean that he's gonna escape from a burial.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:23

Mm.

Chris RyanHost1:16:23

Uh, you know, that was a, one of those character arcs that makes you, uh, frankly wonder, like, what the relationship between the creator and the performer is.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:33

It's aggressive.

Chris RyanHost1:16:34

Um, because he doesn't really have a lot to do other than get mutilated this season and then he dies.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:40

And-

Chris RyanHost1:16:40

You know? Like, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:41

And, and, and I need your context for this because, uh, uh, we touched on this, not watching the first two seasons I am completely unaware of his-

Chris RyanHost1:16:49

That character's a bad fucking guy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:50

Right.

Chris RyanHost1:16:50

And, like, you could say-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:52

So was it, so was this justice?

Chris RyanHost1:16:53

The...

Chris RyanHost1:16:53

But that's the thing, is that as Rue and Ali talk about redemption and, you know, how do you feel about, like, the fentanyl you've brought over-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:00

Chris RyanHost1:17:00

... has killed people, and what, what is, what is salvation and redemption in the eyes of that, like, I, y- you know, obviously Nate, I think that might be what they're trying to say, is that, like, this is a guy who didn't deserve to get out of the hole.

Chris RyanHost1:17:16

I don't know.

Chris RyanHost1:17:16

I mean, like, that is also, like, I, I would be very curious to know what Sam Levinson said about that, you know? Maybe at the end of the season he'll talk a little bit more openly about some of this stuff.

Chris RyanHost1:17:25

Um, you know, you can also speak to Elordi's popularity as an actor and his, his busy schedule and wonder how much of this-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:33

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:17:33

... was like, "We have X amount of time with Nate."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:35

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:17:36

"It doesn't work.

Chris RyanHost1:17:36

He's not gonna be able to show up at Laurie's house with two guns to save Cassie or something like that.

Chris RyanHost1:17:43

Here's what we're gonna do with it." But that felt like a very small plot, like a, a subplot-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:49

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:17:49

... that just got extended for seven hours, and it's, it was an unsatisfying conclusion to an end of a character who's been on the show the entire time, I thought.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:58

I, I hate the Maddie and Cassie story more.

Chris RyanHost1:18:00

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:01

I find it just completely torturous to watch and un- and so, so deeply uninteresting, especially because it just kind of, this episode just undoes everything that happened the episode before.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:11

It's like the, "She's popular on OnlyFans, now she's gonna be in a TV show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:15

Now she's not on a TV show, now she's gonna go back on OnlyFan." And it's like I, I don't, I don't find that particularly compelling drama for characters that I'm not-

Chris RyanHost1:18:22

There's also just something missing there where it's like was Ca- I thought Cassie was sending Nate money.

Chris RyanHost1:18:26

Was he not using that money to even put-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:28

Or had she stopped because during this brief respite-

Chris RyanHost1:18:30

She was like, "This is awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:18:31

I'm getting so much money, but I'm still living in, like, a courtyard apartment." Like, I, I don't really-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:35

But, but maybe the money stopped concurrent with the brief pause on her OnlyFans account during the moment she thought-

Chris RyanHost1:18:40

Oh, like people canceled? But, like, she would've made-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:43

I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:43

I-

Chris RyanHost1:18:44

I, I just don't understand, like, what happened there.

Chris RyanHost1:18:46

Like, the-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:46

I, I, I don't either.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:48

And I will say again, you know who, you know who is giving one of my favorite performances on the show is Sharon Stone.

Chris RyanHost1:18:53

[laughs] Where she's like, "You're right, who gives a shit?" [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:57

The Brian Grazer cameo.

Chris RyanHost1:18:59

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:18:59

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:59

Um, there are a lot of, I mean, there are a lot of good ideas and good performances tossed, tossed out here.

Chris RyanHost1:19:06

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:06

But, but what is it building towards? And I guess it's building towards, like most entertainments, a massive shootout.

Chris RyanHost1:19:13

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:14

Um-

Chris RyanHost1:19:15

Or, you know, I thought, I mean, the, it, it ended with, like, a, a really good, like, fuck cliffhanger.

Chris RyanHost1:19:22

Like, Faye-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:22

Chris RyanHost1:19:23

... you know, a little out in front of her skis intellectually probably-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:27

You think?

Chris RyanHost1:19:27

... as a c- a character being like, "I don't really know who to trust.

Chris RyanHost1:19:30

I feel betrayed by Rue.

Chris RyanHost1:19:31

I'm gonna wake Wayne up.

Chris RyanHost1:19:32

Now there's gonna be, like, this drama." So excited for that, excited for the finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:36

When, when you, when you're faced with a choice between an old friend and a Nazi, what can we do?

Chris RyanHost1:19:41

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:41

It's kind of like voting in a Texas senatorial-

Chris RyanHost1:19:44

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:44

... race

Chris RyanHost1:19:44

... let's do Top Chef crash out season.

Top Chef: Seeger Meltdown & Season Woes1:19:46 – 1:33:34

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:46

Wow.

Chris RyanHost1:19:47

This is spoilers for the most recent episode of Top Chef.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:19:49

Yeah.I

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:51

And I would say this ep- episode was so upsetting, Kai is not even here today.

Chris RyanHost1:19:54

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:19:55

She, she is, she has taken a personal day-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:57

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:19:57

... to just think about Seeger and what he went through, and whether that moose killed anyone.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:02

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:20:02

The chicken liver pate.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:04

The moose, yeah, not the snake.

Chris RyanHost1:20:05

I enjoyed this a lot as television.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:07

Okay.

Chris RyanHost1:20:08

Did you enjoy it as Top Chef?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:11

His...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:11

Well, his behavior?

Chris RyanHost1:20:13

In the f- in the af- after the, uh, the elimination cook-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:17

Uh-

Chris RyanHost1:20:17

... which takes place-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:17

Yeah, I-

Chris RyanHost1:20:18

... over the course of several, uh, m- multiple days, but then ultimately they have to cook in the woods in the heat.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:23

I, yeah, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:25

It didn't both- that part didn't bother me at all.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:27

Like, I'm excited to talk about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:28

It was unexpected, especially for a show that has increasingly trended towards actually we can all, all get along, actually I am here to make friends.

Chris RyanHost1:20:36

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:36

So to see someone behave in such an unconsidered way was almost refreshing.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:44

Um, I do think that the emails we got, um, back f- like, asserting that Seeger is actually a pretty cool guy, um, all of them came from, I guess, Chef Seeger at-

Chris RyanHost1:20:53

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:53

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:53

Hotmail.com.

Chris RyanHost1:20:53

There were, there were people from, I think, Chicago who were like, "This, that was actually not representative of who he is," and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20:59

I would say that it is.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:00

I, he still could be a good guy, but I-

Chris RyanHost1:21:01

I think he just has a temper, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:03

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:03

but yeah, yeah, I would say so.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:05

And so to see him crash out was a, a burst of energy in a show that hasn't had a ton of adrenaline this season.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:14

But-

Chris RyanHost1:21:14

We haven't had a moment like that in years

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:16

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:16

in years.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:17

And the judges were shocked-

Chris RyanHost1:21:18

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:18

... by it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:19

And it was such an insane hill to die on because, as you alluded to, he served melting chicken livers on 100-degree day.

Chris RyanHost1:21:27

Yes, and I think that if he goes back and watches this show, whether he thinks it's edited against him or not-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:32

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:21:32

...

Chris RyanHost1:21:33

I think he would see, you know, pride comes before the fall, and there was several moments where, you know, whether it was the whole hog cook that sent him home-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:41

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:21:41

...

Chris RyanHost1:21:41

the first time or, uh, this particular one where he was so confident that the gelatin was gonna make his chicken liver-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:21:47

Yes, 'cause he's done it before

Chris RyanHost1:21:48

... 'cause he's done it before, but probably not in the woods with coolers of ice, which one w- was left open at a certain point.

Chris RyanHost1:21:55

And then I think, like, him trying to, like, "In fact, let's go to the tape on them"-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:00

That was wild

Chris RyanHost1:22:00

... uh, hasn't, never worked in the history-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:03

It, it, oh-

Chris RyanHost1:22:03

Nobody's ever done that.

Chris RyanHost1:22:04

Like, I don't think anybody's ever been like, "Let's look at the bylaws of Top Chef."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:07

[laughs] Also, uh, he is also-

Chris RyanHost1:22:11

He also tried to take Jonathan down with him

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:12

... he's also a good cook.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:14

He might be a good guy, as his friends attest.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:15

I don't, this is a TV show, and being a good cook and a good guy doesn't have anything to do with winning the very specific peculiarities of Top Chef, which involve cooking a dish to the rules, but also to the technical specifications and arbitrary likings of a well-established panel of judges.

Chris RyanHost1:22:32

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:32

Let alone vox populi of, like, a bunch of people showing up and being like, "I don't wanna eat that."

Chris RyanHost1:22:38

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:38

You lost on that alone, even if it was well executed, I think.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:41

So that, that was wild, and it was particularly wild because, as you just alluded to, he shouldn't have been there anyway.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:22:48

Like, the show messed up earlier by giving him a glide path back onto the show that almost no contestant has ever been granted the grace of having.

Chris RyanHost1:22:57

I don't even know if it was really that much of a glide path.

Chris RyanHost1:22:59

I just think it is the way that they edited the series this year to allow for Last Chance Kitchen to have suspense also me-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:08

But-

Chris RyanHost1:23:08

... meant that there was, like, a three-week liminal space of is Jen on this show, is Seeger on this show?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:14

Well, they were caught-

Chris RyanHost1:23:15

Who's on Last Chance Kitchen?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:16

They were caught very off-guard-

Chris RyanHost1:23:17

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:17

... by their own rules of a different sort, and I think Daniel Fienberg in The Hollywood Reporter has a pretty good blow-by-blow of the screw-up.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:24

But basically, like, continuing to tell Jen that she could hang out for as long as she wanted to even though she couldn't p- perform on the show, and also wasn't really lighting the place on fire anyway, created a circumstance where Seeger is outright eliminated, skips Last Chance Kitchen, where he probably would've been defeated by Rhoda, and then acts in this episode like he is entitled to a spot in the finale.

Chris RyanHost1:23:44

Well, Justin could have taken Seeger's spot, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:23:46

Justin could've just been like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:47

Right

Chris RyanHost1:23:47

... "Yes, I will go instead of Jen."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:49

"I will, I will continue on."

Chris RyanHost1:23:50

"I will, I will..."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:23:50

So a- all of that, but the bigger, uh, issue is the show's clearly just ravaged budget is really, really showing up on the screen now.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:02

And I know that we spent time two weeks ago being like, "They never go outside anymore," and then they were literally outside sweating, watching their, um, parfaits melt this week.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:11

But there's different versions of outside and being outside, and a week in which they go to Asheville, which in some ways is the show at its best, being like, "As chefs, we have a unique role in-"

Chris RyanHost1:24:22

The Asheville part was, was fantastic.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:24

The Asheville part was okay, and here's why.

Chris RyanHost1:24:27

Well, the Asheville part made me wanna go to Asheville.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:29

100% successful.

Chris RyanHost1:24:30

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:31

So if that is the goal, to both highlight a place that looked awesome and also highlight its recent struggles-

Chris RyanHost1:24:37

Its recovery, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:38

... and suggest what we can do and why we shouldn't forget about it, so mission accomplished.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:42

In terms of the flow of Top Chef, I would say an episode in which they're like, "We're not gonna do a quick fire.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:24:48

You guys are going to get into unbranded vans because we lost the BMW sponsorship and drive two and a half hours to a town in which you will drive by three to four interesting-sounding restaurants and eat snacks at one with no judges or the host present," felt pretty rinky-dink to me.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:25:06

Like, have the courage of your convictions and fucking film there, or tell Kristen to get in one of these cars and go there too.

Chris RyanHost1:25:12

Well, it's strange too because-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:25:13

And don't be like, "Drive by r-" I mean, this is what I do when people visit LA where I'm like, "That's a pretty cool small plates restaurant," and my guests are like, "Should we go there?" And I'm like, "No, we couldn't get in." Like-

Chris RyanHost1:25:22

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:25:23

... what, what purpose h- does that serve for anyone other than my own ego? [laughs] Do you know what I mean? Like-

Chris RyanHost1:25:29

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:25:29

... that was insane, and then later-

Chris RyanHost1:25:31

You can eat there if you wanna eat at 4:45 or 10:00 PM, yes.

Chris RyanHost1:25:34

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:25:34

Yeah, ex- you're, you're welcome to it, but I'll be in bed at both those times, weirdly.

Chris RyanHost1:25:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:25:38

Um, but, like, then when Rhoda's like, "I made Filipino food because I was inspired by this restaurant," and the chef's like-

Chris RyanHost1:25:43

And the guy's like, "That's my restaurant"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:25:44

... "That's my restaurant," like, okay, could we see it? Oh, you couldn't afford to show it to us? Come on.

Chris RyanHost1:25:48

It's a strange thing because a lot has happened this season where I feel like they have been battling the elements.

Chris RyanHost1:25:54

As my wife pointed out the other day when we were chatting about this, she was like, you know, it goes back-You remember the finale of, of Denver where, like, people's bread didn't rise 'cause they were cooking on the top of a mountain.

Chris RyanHost1:26:04

You know, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:05

I think about it constantly

Chris RyanHost1:26:06

...

Chris RyanHost1:26:06

this, this, uh, this is not the first time that Top Chef has made elements in a, a, an element-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:11

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:26:11

... of the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:12

The rain in the Portland season.

Chris RyanHost1:26:13

And there's also, you know, I think I am being a little bit n- um, more easily annoyed by, uh, you know, and now everybody switch foods with the person to your left or-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:25

That was despicable

Chris RyanHost1:26:26

... you know, th- and now mystery diners are voting and we're not, or now, like, th- there's a lot, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:32

Remember when they were like, "And now let us bring out our guest judge for quick fire, a guy no one's ever heard of"? Congratulations.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:39

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:26:39

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:39

You really, you, you really, you really did it.

Chris RyanHost1:26:40

But the strange thing to me is that Canada, which I know was a passion project for Gail to have-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:45

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:26:45

...

Chris RyanHost1:26:45

the show go there, was in my memory largely shot on a soundstage.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:50

Yes, it was.

Chris RyanHost1:26:51

And North Carolina and South Carolina, which seems hot as fuck-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:26:55

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:26:55

... has been 10 shots, like 10 shoots out, like, at a NASCAR track or in the middle of a public park or in Asheville in the forest, or not Asheville in the forest 'cause they went back to-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27:06

They went back and they cooked out-

Chris RyanHost1:27:07

... to Charlotte for the forest

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27:08

... on the Appalachian Trail with a snake.

Chris RyanHost1:27:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:27:10

That just seems like why, why'd you guys do that? I mean, I guess maybe they listened to us and we were like, "Get the fuck outside," and they were like, "You asked for it.

Chris RyanHost1:27:18

Now it's hot as shit and nobody's mousse [laughs] congeals." Like, I guess we should take some accountability there, not that we can dictate what Top Chef does.

Chris RyanHost1:27:27

But I just feel like there's been ...

Chris RyanHost1:27:30

And, and Feinberg and, and The Hollywood Report does a really good piece, writes about these two institutions that he, like, I, I agree with Dan.

Chris RyanHost1:27:38

I wish every Monday had a Top Chef and every Wednesday had a Survivor.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27:42

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:27:42

I would be a happier person-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27:43

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:27:43

...

Chris RyanHost1:27:43

if it was, like, a 12-month-a-year thing.

Chris RyanHost1:27:46

But-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27:46

And which night are the Sheridan Shows running in this 12-month scenario?

Chris RyanHost1:27:50

Uh, [laughs] they just run on my Vision Pro.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27:52

[laughs] There you go.

Chris RyanHost1:27:53

I think that in some ways, like, they've iterated too much to keep up-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27:57

I-

Chris RyanHost1:27:57

... with maybe perceived Joneses, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:00

I don't think it's the iteration.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:01

I think, I just think there's a, there's a budget thing going on that we're not qualified to talk about or even ask about, and I think that the, the, the answer to the question if you ask it too loudly is, do you still want the show? And, you know, it is the only reality show left, uh, competition show left.

Chris RyanHost1:28:15

That you watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:15

No, it's the only competition show on Bravo.

Chris RyanHost1:28:18

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:18

It didn't used to be.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:19

I mean, Project Runway and ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:20

Remember, [laughs] I was still a fan of Work of Art, the art world one with Jerry Saltz from The Journal.

Chris RyanHost1:28:24

I mean, could you imagine them sell it to Food Channel? Like, Food Network? Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:28

Uh, I, I, I have no idea.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:30

It clearly still works on some level for the, the Bravo Comcast brand.

Chris RyanHost1:28:35

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:35

It's just they want it to work in this way, and I think you can see the ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:39

Like, this is a small thing because we watch it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:42

We'll either watch screeners or we watch it on Peacock, but it, currently the show is, this season the show's premiering on Bravo linear on Mondays at a time TBD each week, so much so that I, I saw Kristen on social media being like, "Don't forget, we're on at 9:30 tonight for some reason." Like, they're not-

Chris RyanHost1:28:59

She said that?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28:59

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:00

They're not loving that aspect of it.

Chris RyanHost1:29:01

Uh, 'cause it's getting swallowed up by, like, Summer House stuff, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:04

I, I would assume.

Chris RyanHost1:29:05

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:05

Um, but I do think it needs a rethink because this, these, this host and these judges can make worthwhile television.

Chris RyanHost1:29:14

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:14

And the finale still could be good.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:16

It's not their fault that they tried to iterate by having brothers and a couple and it amounted to nothing.

Chris RyanHost1:29:21

Yeah, I find that the, the judges have been marginalized this season too.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:24

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:29:24

There's way too much noise going on around them.

Chris RyanHost1:29:26

I don't feel like I'm hearing ...

Chris RyanHost1:29:28

The thing that I love about this show-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:30

Chris RyanHost1:29:30

... and probably my greatest engagement with it was this sort of run where I think they encourage chefs earlier in the season to cook, quote, "their food".

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:40

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:29:40

And to, y- you can think it's cheesy to be like, "I'm telling a story," or, "This is about, like, my background," but it actually produced compelling televisual storytelling to have somebody be like, "I've grown up through this-"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:54

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:29:54

... "you know, French culinary tradition, but now I'm really gonna start cooking the stuff-"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:58

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:29:58

... "that my mother used to make me-"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29:59

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:29:59

... "but put a, put my spin on it," or, "I'm bringing technique to something that traditionally is very rustic," or whatever it is.

Chris RyanHost1:30:06

I feel like Tom and Gail and Kristen, and then at various points, you know, like, before Padma, were really like, "You're on Top Chef.

Chris RyanHost1:30:14

Fucking impress us."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:16

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:30:16

Like, "Do it." And now I feel like there's just been way too many goofy things that have stopped someone like, for instance, Sherry or, or Jonathan, who ...

Chris RyanHost1:30:28

I just think Sherry's only now starting to be like, "I'm making this fritter because this is-"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:33

That was cool

Chris RyanHost1:30:33

... "this thing that, and nobody's ever had this before," or whatever.

Chris RyanHost1:30:37

And, you know, even Lawrence, who I don't think is very, like, demonstrative about what's going on but has been cooking this amazing food all year, I don't even feel like they're celebrating it.

Chris RyanHost1:30:46

I don't feel like they're-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:47

Well, because I think that the ceiling this season has just been wildly lower.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:51

Now, again, you cannot ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:52

This is the vagaries of a competition show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:55

You cannot guarantee-

Chris RyanHost1:30:56

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:30:56

... a Buddha, a Gregory, a Tristan.

Chris RyanHost1:30:57

Yeah, and Survivor 50 just had this where it was like all the really great players kind of got voted off, and I think Aubrey's good.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:03

It-

Chris RyanHost1:31:03

But, like, you just have, like, at the end a sort of weird mishmash of people.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:07

Yeah, and I think that there was a moment earlier in the season where we're like, oh my God, Rhoda is another, um, like a Melissa or someone-

Chris RyanHost1:31:13

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:13

... who's just, like, uh, Melissa King, like, who's just, like, day one, oh my God.

Chris RyanHost1:31:17

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:17

You are rising to every occasion and you're surprising yourself, and we're on a generational run here.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:22

Or, you know, you hope for someone like a Tristan who catches fire later and you're like, oh my God, the prince who was promised was here all along.

Chris RyanHost1:31:28

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:29

You can't guarantee that year after year.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:31

But what we're creeping towards now is Lawrence is gonna win, um, which is deserving.

Chris RyanHost1:31:37

I don't know about that anymore.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:38

But, but, but I, but, but what he has execute, what he has done is a very, very technically precise and satisfying execution of what you were talking about, which is like I grew up eating this kind of food in a Cantonese household, and I am going to be able to execute a version of it that is elevated.

Chris RyanHost1:31:54

Yeah, like a fried catfish on a bao is, like, really cool.

Chris RyanHost1:31:56

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:56

And he baked the bread.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:57

That was awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:31:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31:58

That was an incredibly-... compelling performance, uh, performance on Top Chef in which you, the viewer who can't taste the food, sees the degree of difficulty and can just see that they nailed the execution.

Chris RyanHost1:32:07

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:07

And that's satisfying as a viewer.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:09

The rest of them are just kinda stumbling their way to the finish line, and maybe someone will step up.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:12

But I h- I find it very hard to imagine that there's going to be a level of excitement, exhilaration, or inspiration in a finale for the way this season has played out.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:22

And I don't ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:23

I think it would be a mistake, though-

Chris RyanHost1:32:24

I think Rhoda, Lawrence, and Sherry is a good final three.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:27

It, it, it would be a decent final three.

Chris RyanHost1:32:29

Jonathan's still there, obviously, you know.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:30

Um, the loss of Anthony hurts.

Chris RyanHost1:32:32

Yeah, man.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:32

That was a bummer.

Chris RyanHost1:32:32

That, that sucked.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:33

But I think that it would be a mistake to walk away from this season and be like, "Yeah, you know what? Sometimes, like, uh ..." Was the guy that won Denver, like, perfectly-

Chris RyanHost1:32:42

Joe

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:42

... like Joe.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:43

Seems like a really good guy, good chef, good on TV.

Chris RyanHost1:32:45

But he has a restaurant.

Chris RyanHost1:32:45

It's good.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:45

But, like, not necessarily the heights of ambition or technical, you know-

Chris RyanHost1:32:50

Or maybe not the drama of-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:51

Sure

Chris RyanHost1:32:52

... of Brooke and Kristen or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:53

Right.

Chris RyanHost1:32:53

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:53

So, okay.

Chris RyanHost1:32:53

Right, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:53

So you can't guarantee that every year.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:55

There have been down seasons in terms of the excellence on display or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:32:58

But I think it would be a mistake to focus on that at the expense of the fact that the clear, clear, clear diminishment of ambition and budget is hurting the final product of the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:09

And I don't know what to do about that, 'cause we're lucky to still have it.

Chris RyanHost1:33:11

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:11

But I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:13

I, it's, I feel like that's the elephant in the room.

Chris RyanHost1:33:14

I would like to also, like, at some point ...

Chris RyanHost1:33:16

We have gotten so many emails about the Padma show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:20

Oh, she-

Chris RyanHost1:33:20

Uh, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:21

Did they have budget? Maybe they did.

Chris RyanHost1:33:23

I think it might be worth checking out a little bit more thoroughly to see.

Chris RyanHost1:33:26

Uh, it's, it's odd that it was c- running concurrently, like, you know.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:31

I mean, not odd.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:31

Aggressive.

Chris RyanHost1:33:32

Aggressively.

Chris RyanHost1:33:33

Uh, let's wrap it up there.

Looking Ahead & Sign-Off1:33:34 – 1:34:40

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:34

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:33:35

Monday, this is the Euphoria finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:38

Yeah, and so there's a couple other shows I wanna check out.

Chris RyanHost1:33:40

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:40

I don't know if it'll be for Monday, but we have, uh, Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed on Apple.

Chris RyanHost1:33:44

We do.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:44

Uh, we have the Amadeus show that is on Starz-

Chris RyanHost1:33:47

With Joe Barton

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:47

... that was on in the UK last year.

Chris RyanHost1:33:48

Watch those, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:49

Um, I feel like there was ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:51

There's probably others.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:52

I s- I, I feel like-

Chris RyanHost1:33:53

We need to also address the fact that, like, we're getting a lot of new shows.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:56

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:33:57

And-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:33:58

It's tiring

Chris RyanHost1:33:58

... tire- it's hard to finish them.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:00

Did you watch The Burrows?

Chris RyanHost1:34:01

I did.

Chris RyanHost1:34:02

And I didn't watch all of it, but I watched, like, three episodes of it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:05

Is it weird to see actors that we think of as relatively young people-

Chris RyanHost1:34:08

Talked about this with Joe

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:09

... be like in Cocoon?

Chris RyanHost1:34:09

This is just like ...

Chris RyanHost1:34:11

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:13

Like [laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:34:13

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:13

Is it ...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:13

Like, I, so-

Chris RyanHost1:34:13

It's, it's very well done, though

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:14

... a f- a friend was telling me about the show and was like, "Well, you know, there's a great scene in Bill Pullman's retirement home," and I'm like, "I'm gonna need you to stop there."

Chris RyanHost1:34:20

It's true.

Chris RyanHost1:34:21

It's true.

Chris RyanHost1:34:22

Uh, Kai, Sarah, thank you.

Chris RyanHost1:34:24

Kaya, thank you.

Chris RyanHost1:34:25

Uh, Andy, thank you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:26

Kai is coming back for the Top Chef finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:28

That's why she's not here today.

Chris RyanHost1:34:28

Thank God.

Chris RyanHost1:34:29

Uh, we'll see you guys on Monday.

Chris RyanHost1:34:31

Everybody have a great weekend.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:32

You have a great weekend.

Chris RyanHost1:34:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:34

I include you in that.

Chris RyanHost1:34:35

Thank you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:35

All the Branskys.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:34:36

[upbeat music]

Blinds.com Memorial Day Mega Sale1:34:44 – 1:35:13

AdvertiserAd1:34:44

Did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees? Turn the temperature down with Blinds.com and get up to 50% off custom window treatments like solar roller shades and more during the Memorial Day mega sale.

AdvertiserAd1:34:57

Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got you.

AdvertiserAd1:35:01

Free samples, real design experts, and zero pressure.

AdvertiserAd1:35:04

Just help when you need it.

AdvertiserAd1:35:05

This is your last chance to shop up to 50% off site-wide during the Memorial Day mega sale at Blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply.

‘Spider-Noir’ Is Unsure of Itself. Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E6-7, ‘Euphoria’ S3E7, and ‘Top Chef’ S23E12.

We value your privacy

‘Spider-Noir’ Is Unsure of Itself. Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E6-7, ‘Euphoria’ S3E7, and ‘Top Chef’ S23E12.