Aug 16, 2026 · 59 min · 13 segments
Andrew Horsfield, author of '*Better: Escape Average, Beat Burnout, Own your Life',* explores how leaders and professionals can navigate setbacks, uncertainty and self-doubt. After more than 20 years…
Andrew HorsfieldGuest
Gary BertwistleHost
You, you wrote in the book, whether you are building a career or rebuilding a relationship or rebuilding yourself.
Now, the liminal space was first brought to the Mojo Sessions in season six by Anne-Laura Lecoff, who is a former Googler and now neuroscientist.
And she wrote about the liminal space, which is a physical or psychological in-between state or transitional area.
I mean, Viktor Frankl was a person who first referred it to us all, wasn't he, in 1954? He wrote his book, Man's Search for Meaning, and he talked about it then, that there is this gap between the stuff that happens to us and our response to it, essentially.
And, you know, I think the reason I mentioned it in the book is because, you know, 1954 is a long time ago and we're still struggling to step into this space.
I mean, whether it's – it's not always negative either, Gary, I reckon, for people listening.
It can be a positive messy middle around we're stretching ourselves for a new role or we're having to walk across the room to – ask someone if they want to have a drink or our future spouse is on the other side of the room and we've got to cross that space.
So the messy middle isn't always negative, but it's always challenging because of two reasons.
There's self-doubt, there's worry, there's fear, all of those things that make stepping really difficult.
And I think the other reason that it's challenging is it puts us on the hook for who we want to be and how we want to be in the world.
And that is quite easy to identify with an intention or an aspiration, but the action part of that is very, very difficult for a lot of people.
You, you wrote in the book, whether you are building a career or rebuilding a relationship or rebuilding yourself.
Now, the liminal space was first brought to the Mojo Sessions in season six by Anne-Laura Lecoff, who is a former Googler and now neuroscientist.
And she wrote about the liminal space, which is a physical or psychological in-between state or transitional area.
I mean, Viktor Frankl was a person who first referred it to us all, wasn't he, in 1954? He wrote his book, Man's Search for Meaning, and he talked about it then, that there is this gap between the stuff that happens to us and our response to it, essentially.
And, you know, I think the reason I mentioned it in the book is because, you know, 1954 is a long time ago and we're still struggling to step into this space.
I mean, whether it's – it's not always negative either, Gary, I reckon, for people listening.
It can be a positive messy middle around we're stretching ourselves for a new role or we're having to walk across the room to – ask someone if they want to have a drink or our future spouse is on the other side of the room and we've got to cross that space.
So the messy middle isn't always negative, but it's always challenging because of two reasons.
There's self-doubt, there's worry, there's fear, all of those things that make stepping really difficult.
And I think the other reason that it's challenging is it puts us on the hook for who we want to be and how we want to be in the world.
And that is quite easy to identify with an intention or an aspiration, but the action part of that is very, very difficult for a lot of people.
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