Yep.

And I wrote this book called Better and, and part of that came because of all the work I was doing, most of the work came into the human side of performance and how do we navigate this difficult space of struggle.

You know, challenge, change, setback, stretching ourselves for stuff we haven't done before, or working outside of our experience, or going when we're uncertain and making decisions and having to pursue a direction.

And so I, I, that was a lot of what I was doing in the work and that was the catalyst for writing a book of say, okay, well, how do we specifically navigate this space between, you know, the life we have and the life we want, or where we are, where we wanna be? And the process itself was just different for me.

Uh, most of my work as a facilitator is about working with people in the room, asking questions, finding out what the real issues are, and, and tapping into how do you move those and how do you move people into, in, into better ways of living, working, and leading.

And this process was very much a write something and declare it to the world, and so it's not that byplay.

Yeah.

Um, but I was working in a large corporate, going through the Emerging Leader Program.

What exactly is it?

Well, I think it's that difficult space that we find ourselves in, and I think we all do, between where we are and where we want to be in life or who we are and who we want to be.

Or maybe it's even the life we have and the one we want.

It's that discrepancy between the way things are and how we'd prefer them to be.

And, you know, my premise of the messy middle is it's often difficult demanding work because it's most of the things that are valuable in life take a bit of that.

They're not easy.

They're not a straight line.

Like we are running 90% to 95% on automatics and so that's really – crucial for us to bring it into our conscious mind to change things otherwise that's that script in the background that you're not even aware of or your phone playing that program in the background that you're not even aware of

yeah

you know standing out or being ostracized or someone saying a comment in the playground that is is a lot more subconscious, but is still there.

That's a bit harder to find.

But we all have that story.

And I think that, you know, in the messiness, it's it's good, I think, for people like you and I to surface those, even in this conversation, to get people to think that It's actually, it's okay because the behavior at its essence is, is a good behavior that at one time served you in your life.

It's just now that that is no longer part of your, your experience.

It's, it's about being able to say to that story in a, in a metaphorical way.

Yeah.

Over to horse.

Thanks, Scott.

Suitably mediocre.

That's great.

Yes, my name's Horst.

I lead our ministries to all the kids and youth that aren't old enough to vote yet.

And my ranger powers are slowly fading.

Maybe some sort of ways that that's played out for you both.

Yeah, I think one of the roles here that husbands and fathers can really take up the mantle of here is being the one that drives that as this is what we do as a family.

As a family, we are members of God's kingdom.

We're also members of a local gathering of that kingdom and get to love our brothers and sisters that he's put around us in a church family.

And so taking the lead in, yeah, it should be the most excited morning or day of our week.

Not sport on Saturday.

That can be exciting.

So does this encouragement happen? You know, how could dads encouraging dads be part of your experience?

When you think back to stories, what was probably the most powerful story that you were telling yourself that was holding you back while making you feel stuck?

Oh, I think it would definitely relate to that approval story without question.

Um, for me, that was, that was definitely the.

the story of, you know, fit in, be liked, um, help the group along, you know, it was very much a, um, don't necessarily stand out.

Don't be, don't be too good at something.

And that certainly goes back to that environment.

If you think about school where, um, all of those social networks and friendships are established.

Explain the scene, why you wrote about it in the book, And in your mind, what should be our default narrative in our thinking when we face problems?

Do we really want to know what's there?

Yeah.

And do I really want to say that I'm contributing to the thing that I'm sort of worried about or annoyed about or struggling with? This is actually maybe part of what my contribution is and a story I share in the book.

But I had this real life practice in my mid 20s when I was working in a large corporate here in Melbourne.

I was looking after the learning and organizational development team for Asia Pacific.

And I went to one of the internal leadership programs.

And it was in one of these programs where we were doing one of those classic activities.

But generally, what's your approach to building reflection into your own life?

Andrew, what would you add? Yeah.

Yeah, I think certainly looking at biblical principles as we see them and read them in the Old Testament and New Testament.

And then because we're in a different cultural state of, you know, like Harriet probably pointed out, the Industrial Revolution brought about just some changes in the way that where work happens.

And so some of those principles that I think are helpful in this space is to look at the commands and desires that God has for his family.

And it starts even right back in Deuteronomy 6, where God is declaring to his family Israel at that point, I'm the Lord, the Lord is one.

love your Lord your God with your heart and soul and mind.

And Jesus, and then flows on with what that looks like, you know, impress these things on your children as you walk along the road and you sit down.

So I'd love to hear your perspective on what it means for a dad to lead the family and what it doesn't mean.

Where's the starting point here?

Well, I reckon the starting point's Clarity.

And I think that we, where we mistake clarity around what's the, what's the point of our life or the purpose of our life is we look for these big legacies sort of thing.

We look, you know, how's the hospital wing going to be named after me or what's the legacy of my life or people talk about Ikigai, which, you know, is a, is a good strategy to find out.

some sense of clarity about you know what's your purpose and what what makes your days matter rather than just accumulate day after day the i think one of the things i try and encourage people to do because something like an ikigai can take a lot of work and if you're not quite clear it can sometimes make things more cloudy not clearer Because we're sort of saying, well, what is my purpose and what am I good at? So one of the things I encourage people to do to help find that clarity is I talk about transitioning with intention.

So if you think about a day when you wake up and you go from your bed to go get breakfast, you're having a transition point there from sleep to activation, your day starting.

Or if you go from commuting at home for people who may still commute into work, Even if you don't, you're going into your workspace, you're moving from a personal space to a professional space or from home to work.

What patterns have you noticed over the last 25 years when it comes to performance? Is there anything that sticks out?

Do you think that's one of the most common challenges you see when you're working with small business owners, that they're, they're always striving for this metaphorical finish line, as you mentioned? And, and are there other common denominators that you see when you're working with, um, entrepreneurs and soloists?

Yeah, it's a really great question.

Yes, it is.

So the finish line is definitely one of the biggest ones.

I think the other thing-You know, for entrepreneurs is we're, we're obviously not part, and small business owners, we're not part of a big machine.

So we, we are marketing, we are the secretary, we are the cleaner, we are the CEO, we- we're the CFO.

I mean, we are all roles, and that is all-consuming as well because, you know, we might outsource some things, but there's a large chunk of work we're doing on our own.

And a- as you say, by optimizing and creating some systems, well, then a lot of that stress would fall away, wouldn't it?