225: His Book Made Me $25,000. Then I Got Him on the Phone with Chris Voss

Chris Voss's book made Ted Phaeton $25,000 on a single contract — so he got the FBI's former lead international kidnapping negotiator on The Modern Man Podcast to find out why the same tactics that work on bank robbers work on bosses, clients, and wives. Never Split the Difference author Chris Voss breaks down tactical empathy, the neuroscience of feeling understood, and why "win-win" is a lie that costs you. Voss spent 24 years with the FBI, led international kidnapping negotiations, and now runs The Black Swan Group. In this conversation he walks through the oxytocin mechanism behind connection (feel understood → more honest → less demanding), the two mental switches to flip before a hard conversation (curiosity and gratitude), the late-night FM DJ voice and the Chase Manhattan Bank standoff where it got a gunman to say "I trust you" in ninety seconds, why compromise guarantees both sides are unhappy, the Christmas-tree story that shows what to do instead, why empathy is a man's tool and Rick Rubin is its living definition, the hijack moments that kill listening ("I understand" and "Feel, Felt, Found"), "that's right" vs. "you're right," why "no" makes people feel safe, and why a collaborative negotiation pays off for years after the deal closes. Plus: Ted's full $25K negotiation story, the general manager who came out to shake his hand, and Chris on girl-dad shotgun etiquette. **Chapters:** 00:00 The $25,000 receipt  01:11 Welcome — Chris Voss  01:14 Ted's contract story  02:20 Why hostage tactics work in the boardroom — the oxytocin mechanism  04:40 "The need to feel understood is as important as the need to be loved"  06:32 Tactical empathy when you're tired, hurt, and annoyed  08:42 Damasio — emotion first, logic second ("that's the cornerstone")  09:54 Two switches before a hard conversation: curiosity and gratitude  10:46 Sean Stevenson — "This is happening for me, not to me"  11:30 THE LATE-NIGHT FM DJ VOICE  12:58 Chase Manhattan Bank — "I trust you" in 90 seconds  16:29 "I'm coachable" — the second set of ears  19:11 WHY WIN-WIN IS A LIE  21:12 "Why don't we compromise? That way we'll both be unhappy."  22:18 The Christmas-tree story — dig into motivation  26:13 Empathy is not sympathy — the quicksand rule  27:40 Rick Rubin — the living definition of empathy  29:40 Empathy is a man's tool — the Rock of Gibraltar  30:04 Girl-dad shotgun etiquette  30:52 The Savvy Whisperer  32:48 LISTENING IS COMPREHENSION — the hijack moments  34:15 "Feel, Felt, Found" is a hijack  37:04 "THAT'S RIGHT" vs. "YOU'RE RIGHT"  40:03 "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?"  40:47 WHY "NO" MAKES PEOPLE FEEL SAFE  42:20 Tim Ross — switching from yes-momentum to no  45:56 Ted said no three times 48:04 Collaboration, not manipulation — intention has a smell  51:16 The Art and Science of Tactical Empathy 2026 — Nov 3 + certifications 54:39 The heaviest question 55:55 Ted's recap   **🤝 Connect with Chris Voss:** **Book:** Never Split the Difference Course: The Art and Science of Tactical Empathy 2026 — live online, starts November 3 (first-ever certification track) **Website:** blackswanltd.com **Instagram:** @blackswangroupltd @thefbinegotiator **Tools of Time Course:** Master your daily structure: Tools of Time **Free eBook Here: Mastering Self-Development: Strategies of the New Masculine:** https://rebrand.ly/m2ebook **⚔️JOIN THE NOBLE KNIGHTS MASTERMIND⚔️** https://themodernmanpodcast.com/thenobleknights  **🫱🏿‍🫲🏾CONNECT WITH THE MODERN MAN🫱🏿‍🫲🏾** Visit our website: themodernmanshow.com Follow us on Twitter: TheModernMan8  Follow us on Instagram: @TheModernManShow  Subscribe to our YouTube channel: The Modern Man