Jan MacKell Collins (Wild Women of the Wild West)

Radio Mano, Papa Chango.

Have you ever wondered about the experience of women in the Wild West? What it was really like? Because, as is so often the case, what we hear about are the stories of men, right? The sheriffs and the rich guys and the miners and the gunslingers.

But what was it like for women? Especially women who weren't doing the sort of normal be married and grin and bear it kind of life that, you know, it's pretty much all that was available.

Like, if you were an independent, intelligent, ambitious woman, what were you going to do? Who were you going to...

How were you going to, like, have an adventure? How were you going to have a life of...

fulfillment or at least freedom.

Well, a lot of those women, that type of women, became prostitutes because it was maybe the only way of having some sort of direct access to money that didn't have to go through a man, you know, a husband who would Take it and, you know, go give it to the prostitutes, I guess.

Anyway, today's guest is an expert on this.

Her name is Jan McKell Collins.

She's a historian.

And she's written a whole slew of books.

You can find them at JanMcKellCollins.com. I'll just read a few titles to give you a sense.

They're not all about prostitution, but a lot of them are.

Brothels, Bordellos, and Bad Girls.

Prostitution in Colorado from 1860 to 1930.

The Colorado Labor Wars, 1903-1904, Cripple Creek District.

Extraordinary Women of the Rocky Mountain West.

Red Light Women of the Rocky Mountains.

Wild Women of Prescott, Arizona.

Good Time Girls of Arizona and New Mexico, A Red Light History of the American Southwest.

And I'm just reading a few.

I mean, she must have, my God, over a dozen books here.

Behind Brothel Door is the Business of Prostitution in Kansas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma.

Wicked Cripple Creek District.

Cripple Creek is that old mining town up here in Colorado.

Anyway, Jan is a very obviously knowledgeable historian of the Old West, particularly the Southwest and the Rocky Mountains, although I believe she also wrote about the Northwest, Washington, Idaho, and that area.

But I really love her focus on these extraordinary women and You know, of course, a lot of the women, as always in the sex trade, are driven into it by just lack of opportunity and necessity.

And, you know, in desperate times, that's all you've got to sell.

And so it's not a particularly heroic or glamorous narrative.

But some of the women... that she writes about are not that.

Maybe initially they were driven into it or not.

She tells stories of some that chose to own Bordello, some who never even worked as prostitutes, as far as we know.

They just saw it as a good business opportunity, and they, by and large, treated the women who worked there much better than the men who owned such businesses.

And as you'll hear, there's an overlap between the sort of sex work and compassion.

And I think it's really interesting that in our world, our society, which is so sex negative and so afraid of sex, the realities of sexuality, of even open discussion about the realities of sexuality, that one of the things that gets overlooked is that there's a lot of compassion that is inherent in human sexuality, and I would say particularly in women's sexuality.

And so a lot of women who end up working in the sex trade, although now it's interesting.

I wonder if this is changing because it's all remote with OnlyFans and all that.

But, you know, you'll hear stories of women who worked as prostitutes about how many of the men are driven not so much by a need for sex as a need for just human contact or some kind of intimacy, someone they can speak honestly to, right? Because so many of us get into relationships that are based on false premises, false identities, false expectations, unrealistic expectations.

And so... we find ourselves in a situation where we can't talk to our partner about who we really are and what we really feel and what we really wish we had or miss or fantasize about or whatever.

And so a lot of men end up talking with prostitutes about the realities of their lives.

I remember I had a friend years ago who worked as a prostitute in San Francisco, and she told me a story I'll never forget.

She said that she had a client, an older guy, you know, in his 60s or 70s, and he hired a my friend once a year always the same day because she looked like his wife who had died and she would go to his house and he gave her his wife's clothes to put on a particular outfit and she would do her hair and her makeup and wear these clothes, and they would have dinner together.

And the man basically was just paying to have the experience of looking across the table and seeing in his mind's eye his wife.

And he never had sex with her.

It wasn't about the sex.

I thought, holy shit.

How heartbreaking.

You know, and there were tears in her eyes when she told me the story.

And she was like, it was such an honor.

I felt so honored to be able to bring him whatever he was finding in that moment.

I feel like that's an aspect of sex work that in our very consumerist, materialist society, nobody talks about.

That so much of it is driven by the pain generated by a society that is so short-sighted and so shallow and so adolescent around sexuality that people are driven to pay money just to be touched and just to be able to speak honestly about who they are and what they feel.

So I think it's fantastic that Jan has dedicated her life to bringing these women and their experiences to light.

And, um, Yeah, so I was really excited to pick her brain to talk about this stuff and to hear some of the stories that she's dug up over the years.

So, yeah, I hope you enjoy this conversation with her as much as I did.

And, man, if you enjoy it half as much as I did, you'll have a good time.