POMEPS Middle East Political Science Podcast
Oct 8, 2026 · 48 min · 8 segments
On this week's episode of the podcast, Inna Rudolf of Kings College London joins Marc Lynch to discuss her book, Iraq's Shi'a Warriors: From Battlefield to Parliament. By examining the PMU’s…
Marc LynchHost
Um, so we'll tr- again, what you just said then feeds naturally into the second, uh, thread that I think we should pick up before getting into the, the details, which is that you really are developing here this, uh, this theoretical approach to the state, and, uh, you know, as you said, you know, not accepting these sharp dichotomies between kind of state and paramilitary, or between state and society, or even between politics and, and violence.
So the book includes also a bit of a heavy theoretical, uh, introduction where I engage with, uh, a lot of this, uh, literature and, uh, I push against some of the conceptual straightjackets.
Uh, I was very much in sync with, um, the arguments presented in making sense of the Arab state, in a way because, um, if we look, for example, at, uh, empirical articles on pro-government militias, we see that a lot of the literature, a lot of the peer review articles like submitted or are feeding into this body of literature conflate constantly between pro-government and pro-state.
One of the paradoxes that the book addresses is that, um, an armed faction within this Iraqi context can perceive itself as pro-state and can adopt a anti-government behavior, and this does not really fit the dichotomy.
I mean, this does not really even, uh, fit, you know, this, um, methodological clustering that has been adopted with, um, with the narrative of pro-government militias.
Because what we are, what we are witnessing here are actors that see governments as, uh, not necessarily a litmus test-
And one of the arguments that really struck me in, in a lot of the interview situations, because of course, as a critical scholar, you push against any piece of, uh, narrative or propagandist, uh, slogans, you know, uh, self portrayals that you're being confronted with.
So even in some cases, I would ask, how is it possible that this and this faction may decide to go against the prime minister, may decide to have a clash with the Iraqi Armed Forces, may decide to particularly contradict this or that directive of the elected government? And in that sense, a lot of them would argue that in a way they have to perceive, uh, to preserve an armed presence outside of the formal chain of command to defend the sovereignty of Iraq.
One of the arguments that I would constantly hear, and this is very important for the current demobilization or-
So they're very much insistent on not being merged within the structures of the MOI or MOD.
And what's the argument there? The argument is, again, like the black swan event of 2014 when the Iraqi army has collapsed.
Who saved Iraq? It was the volunteers because in a way, like, they were uncorrupted.
And to a lot of them, for a lot of the proponents of preserving the PMF as this, um, with its own paraministerial status, if you want to say so, was to preserve its unique doctrine of something that's close to the people, that's in a way very tribal, that reflects the DNA of Iraq, but also that is religiously underpinned.
So the criticism against or the skepticism voiced against those, uh, more regular members of the security forces was that there is a high probability of them acting as, um, a ... bureaucrats as in a way, uh, state officials, state servants, uh, that are motivated by salary package and by their job contract.
Um, so we'll tr- again, what you just said then feeds naturally into the second, uh, thread that I think we should pick up before getting into the, the details, which is that you really are developing here this, uh, this theoretical approach to the state, and, uh, you know, as you said, you know, not accepting these sharp dichotomies between kind of state and paramilitary, or between state and society, or even between politics and, and violence.
So the book includes also a bit of a heavy theoretical, uh, introduction where I engage with, uh, a lot of this, uh, literature and, uh, I push against some of the conceptual straightjackets.
Uh, I was very much in sync with, um, the arguments presented in making sense of the Arab state, in a way because, um, if we look, for example, at, uh, empirical articles on pro-government militias, we see that a lot of the literature, a lot of the peer review articles like submitted or are feeding into this body of literature conflate constantly between pro-government and pro-state.
One of the paradoxes that the book addresses is that, um, an armed faction within this Iraqi context can perceive itself as pro-state and can adopt a anti-government behavior, and this does not really fit the dichotomy.
I mean, this does not really even, uh, fit, you know, this, um, methodological clustering that has been adopted with, um, with the narrative of pro-government militias.
Because what we are, what we are witnessing here are actors that see governments as, uh, not necessarily a litmus test-
And one of the arguments that really struck me in, in a lot of the interview situations, because of course, as a critical scholar, you push against any piece of, uh, narrative or propagandist, uh, slogans, you know, uh, self portrayals that you're being confronted with.
So even in some cases, I would ask, how is it possible that this and this faction may decide to go against the prime minister, may decide to have a clash with the Iraqi Armed Forces, may decide to particularly contradict this or that directive of the elected government? And in that sense, a lot of them would argue that in a way they have to perceive, uh, to preserve an armed presence outside of the formal chain of command to defend the sovereignty of Iraq.
One of the arguments that I would constantly hear, and this is very important for the current demobilization or-
So they're very much insistent on not being merged within the structures of the MOI or MOD.
And what's the argument there? The argument is, again, like the black swan event of 2014 when the Iraqi army has collapsed.
Who saved Iraq? It was the volunteers because in a way, like, they were uncorrupted.
And to a lot of them, for a lot of the proponents of preserving the PMF as this, um, with its own paraministerial status, if you want to say so, was to preserve its unique doctrine of something that's close to the people, that's in a way very tribal, that reflects the DNA of Iraq, but also that is religiously underpinned.
So the criticism against or the skepticism voiced against those, uh, more regular members of the security forces was that there is a high probability of them acting as, um, a ... bureaucrats as in a way, uh, state officials, state servants, uh, that are motivated by salary package and by their job contract.
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