Sep 22, 2026 · 2 hr 49 min · 14 segments
Today I join Victor from Quackaholics Anonymous for a wide-ranging conversation about Alcoholics Anonymous, indoctrination, and what happens…
Kirsten JohnsonHost
It's so funny because when they frequently, AA members who troll, which I would argue is probably the majority of them don't troll, right? Just to be clear.
But of the ones that do, and they come in when they start saying that I'm in denial, I'm like, actually, I think you have to be in denial to be an AA to have all of the cognitive dissonance and to not see that what you're saying is, spiritual not religious or whatever but it's all religious steps there's a level of denial that you need to be in and or delusion really for the entire thing to work
well yeah that's you know oftentimes i mean it really irritates them in comments when i say so if you want to believe that some mysterious entity that exists beyond space and time in the universe reaches into your brain and removes your desire to drink because you did a four-step with some old-timer asshole I mean, you're going to have to provide me with some evidence that that's actually what's going on.
Because, you know, recently, before I kind of dive into the questions, it was when people say AA works.
I mean, I don't even know what they're talking about.
I mean, are you saying I had some place to go every evening in the early days and I just didn't want to go to a liquor store? And it was, you know, it was a place for me to hang out and socialize.
I mean, I can accept that.
I mean, I can accept, you know, well, it was miserable when I was trying to get off alcohol.
And AA was a place where I felt like a few people understood me or something like that.
Or are you saying that you did a four step with some, you know, shitty old timer, bully and asshole and some mystical entity reached into your brain and actually removed your obsession and When you did the six step, whatever, you know, whatever the fuck.
I mean, what do you mean when you say AA works? Because works is such a broad, you know, generalization that I don't, you know, you have to kind of define what you mean when you come at me with, well, AA works.
I mean, and usually the progression is it's worked for millions.
Well, then when you point out it has not worked for millions, then it's, well, it's helped a few people.
And then when, you know, you point out the, vast majority harm outweighs any net you know net positive to it then it's will it save my life so it's like we're gonna backpedal and we're just gonna keep backing up from our standard point here versus our opening claim but uh
yeah we have some comments over here we have g bone g bone 1812 says it works when you don't work it and nadine says Ugh, step four or five were traumatic for me, for many actually.
What's up, Monica? And then Nadine says, how do you measure a spiritual awakening? What does work
mean?
work? Is there a, could you even demonstrate someone had one? Like if I told you right now, I've had a spiritual awakening and I'm a completely different person and I'm in tune with the universe, you know, and I, And you, you know, how would, I mean, how can I demonstrate that any of that's real and not just some Charlie Madsen type rhetoric that you hear on the street from some guy, you know, at the New York city bus station or something, you know, I'm in tune, the thoughts, you know, the atoms, they're all communicating.
They got names, they got, you know.
That's another, that's the thing that, that was a sticking point to me without about the whole spiritual and all that other kind of thing.
I mean, if you can't Tell me what it is.
It's so funny because when they frequently, AA members who troll, which I would argue is probably the majority of them don't troll, right? Just to be clear.
But of the ones that do, and they come in when they start saying that I'm in denial, I'm like, actually, I think you have to be in denial to be an AA to have all of the cognitive dissonance and to not see that what you're saying is, spiritual not religious or whatever but it's all religious steps there's a level of denial that you need to be in and or delusion really for the entire thing to work
well yeah that's you know oftentimes i mean it really irritates them in comments when i say so if you want to believe that some mysterious entity that exists beyond space and time in the universe reaches into your brain and removes your desire to drink because you did a four-step with some old-timer asshole I mean, you're going to have to provide me with some evidence that that's actually what's going on.
Because, you know, recently, before I kind of dive into the questions, it was when people say AA works.
I mean, I don't even know what they're talking about.
I mean, are you saying I had some place to go every evening in the early days and I just didn't want to go to a liquor store? And it was, you know, it was a place for me to hang out and socialize.
I mean, I can accept that.
I mean, I can accept, you know, well, it was miserable when I was trying to get off alcohol.
And AA was a place where I felt like a few people understood me or something like that.
Or are you saying that you did a four step with some, you know, shitty old timer, bully and asshole and some mystical entity reached into your brain and actually removed your obsession and When you did the six step, whatever, you know, whatever the fuck.
I mean, what do you mean when you say AA works? Because works is such a broad, you know, generalization that I don't, you know, you have to kind of define what you mean when you come at me with, well, AA works.
I mean, and usually the progression is it's worked for millions.
Well, then when you point out it has not worked for millions, then it's, well, it's helped a few people.
And then when, you know, you point out the, vast majority harm outweighs any net you know net positive to it then it's will it save my life so it's like we're gonna backpedal and we're just gonna keep backing up from our standard point here versus our opening claim but uh
yeah we have some comments over here we have g bone g bone 1812 says it works when you don't work it and nadine says Ugh, step four or five were traumatic for me, for many actually.
What's up, Monica? And then Nadine says, how do you measure a spiritual awakening? What does work
mean?
work? Is there a, could you even demonstrate someone had one? Like if I told you right now, I've had a spiritual awakening and I'm a completely different person and I'm in tune with the universe, you know, and I, And you, you know, how would, I mean, how can I demonstrate that any of that's real and not just some Charlie Madsen type rhetoric that you hear on the street from some guy, you know, at the New York city bus station or something, you know, I'm in tune, the thoughts, you know, the atoms, they're all communicating.
They got names, they got, you know.
That's another, that's the thing that, that was a sticking point to me without about the whole spiritual and all that other kind of thing.
I mean, if you can't Tell me what it is.
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3 of 12
When Amends Become Harm
Some recovery practices turn accountability into abuse.
He Left Expecting Death
Victor left believing failure meant he would die.
Leaving Was Harder Than Sobriety
Leaving AA proved harder than getting sober.
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