Dr. Anthony Lilles - Discerning Hearts Catholic Podcasts
Jul 29, 2026 · 26 min · 13 segments
!https://www.discerninghearts.com/catholic-podcasts/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Anthony-300x300.jpg ## Episode 2: A Living Witness to Christ – St. Francis of Assisi: His Life and Spirituality with…
Anthony LillesGuestKris McGregorHostI'm going to say something that may sound strange, Anthony, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Even back in the time of St. Bonaventure, and of course in the life of St. Francis, there has always been, in the life of the Church, there's always been the battle of words.
the battle of heresies of people that are always putting thought against thought when it comes to matters of the faith.
But the thing about Francis—and maybe this is why he appealed so well, and maybe it's about the reason why St. Teresa of Calcutta was so luminary in her way during our times— is that their luminous holiness really did reflect Christ's people, and they were attracted to that beyond the words, proclaiming the gospel through living that life that is so reflective of him.

Why do we kind of come up against errors and why do we need to confront errors? We need to confront errors because they always simplify the mystery.

An error of the faith is ultimately something that has reduced the mystery to something that... is rationalistic and we can understand.

And so it takes us above reason, the natural power of reason into a truth that our natural power of reason simply cannot see.

All the doctrine and dogma and moral teachings are there for us to keep that mystery alive so that we continue to look towards him who alone can save us, who cannot be exhausted by human thought.

but allows himself to be thought about all the same, only to open us up to even greater mysteries, because he, Jesus, is the source of our peace.

Look at Francis Bonaventure's saying, and you'll find the source of peace, this light, that takes us beyond the contentions of the moment, that helps us let go of judgments, bad judgments that aren't going to get us anywhere, and helps us find purer and more beautiful judgments that can actually help us find Jesus more deeply.

And this is where sometimes academic theology and sometimes ecclesiastical conversations go off track a little bit.

If you want to have accuracy in the way you speak about the faith, this is according to Garigou Lagrange, you need to look at the saints and you need to study the wisdom of the saints.

Bonaventure is saying the same thing here with the way he's presented Francis.
I'm going to say something that may sound strange, Anthony, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Even back in the time of St. Bonaventure, and of course in the life of St. Francis, there has always been, in the life of the Church, there's always been the battle of words.
the battle of heresies of people that are always putting thought against thought when it comes to matters of the faith.
But the thing about Francis—and maybe this is why he appealed so well, and maybe it's about the reason why St. Teresa of Calcutta was so luminary in her way during our times— is that their luminous holiness really did reflect Christ's people, and they were attracted to that beyond the words, proclaiming the gospel through living that life that is so reflective of him.

Why do we kind of come up against errors and why do we need to confront errors? We need to confront errors because they always simplify the mystery.

An error of the faith is ultimately something that has reduced the mystery to something that... is rationalistic and we can understand.

And so it takes us above reason, the natural power of reason into a truth that our natural power of reason simply cannot see.

All the doctrine and dogma and moral teachings are there for us to keep that mystery alive so that we continue to look towards him who alone can save us, who cannot be exhausted by human thought.

but allows himself to be thought about all the same, only to open us up to even greater mysteries, because he, Jesus, is the source of our peace.

Look at Francis Bonaventure's saying, and you'll find the source of peace, this light, that takes us beyond the contentions of the moment, that helps us let go of judgments, bad judgments that aren't going to get us anywhere, and helps us find purer and more beautiful judgments that can actually help us find Jesus more deeply.

And this is where sometimes academic theology and sometimes ecclesiastical conversations go off track a little bit.

If you want to have accuracy in the way you speak about the faith, this is according to Garigou Lagrange, you need to look at the saints and you need to study the wisdom of the saints.

Bonaventure is saying the same thing here with the way he's presented Francis.
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