St. Bernard, uh, when did he live?

So St. Bernard lived from, uh, uh, ten ninety to eleven fifty-three.

It was a very exciting time in the history of the church.

This was the era of Crusades, which he preached.

It was also the period of the great reform of the Abbey of Citeaux, which he was part of.

But, uh, probably, uh, one of the most powerful things that he's known for is being the Abbot of Clairvaux, which, uh, Clairvaux i- was kind of a daughter abbey of Citeaux.

He had actually gone into the city of Paris to the university section, the Latin Quarter of Paris, and preached a homily on conversion to Christ.

What is truth?

That's what it looks like, I mean, for him.

The idea that he's called to start a religious institute, a form of religious life that has never existed in the church before, This is not even remotely in the back of Francis.

So how does Jesus bring him from the idea of being an earthly knight, forming an earthly band of knights to serve the King Jesus? How does he bring him from that into little brothers of the poor who, in their poverty without any weapons, reveal the merciful love of God? How does he get him from one to the other? When he woke in the morning, he judged the strange vision to be an indication he would have great prosperity.

And he had no experience in interpreting divine mysteries.

He did not know how to pass through visible images to grasp invisible truth.

So, Wisdom is about being able to see visible things and in the visible things, seeing the truth behind them so that you don't live by appearances, but you live by the truths that are holding up the world.

And Francis is going to become a man who is able to live by those truths.

But for Francis, he's experiencing that maybe something that a lot of people experience at first, but because they don't have someone or they feel they don't have someone to help them, it kind of maybe diminishes over time.

I mean, for him

The idea that he's called to start a religious institute, a religious, a form of religious life that has never existed in the church before.

This is not even remotely in the back of Francis.

So how does Jesus bring him from the idea of being an earthly knight, forming an earthly band of knights to serve the King Jesus? How does he bring him from that into little brothers of the poor who in their poverty without any weapons reveal the merciful love of God? How does he get him from one to the other? When he woke in the morning, he judged the strange vision to be an indication he would have great prosperity.

And he had no interpretation.

He had no experience in interpreting divine mysteries.

He did not know how to pass through visible images to grasp invisible truth.

Maybe something that a lot of people experience at first, but because they don't have someone or they feel they don't have someone to help them, it kind of maybe diminishes over time.

into either a lightweight or a saint just in the waiting he's a very he's very real he's got mixed emotions he's got a very human heart and yet this is a great example of what a pre-conversion can we say that

Yes.

Chapter 1 is all about his pre-conversion years, and you actually described it pretty aptly.

It's a little bit mixed.

Before his conversion to the faith and total dedication to the Lord, it wasn't that he was... a man of evil debauchery who was the worst sinner of sinners.

Compared to St. Augustine, he was relatively innocent and even generous.

But at the same time, we also have the picture in chapter 1 that he was somebody who enjoyed good things and he enjoyed fun and he enjoyed good food.

And Francis comes along, and every day this man would take off his cloak and spread it before Francis.

into either a lightweight or a saint just in the waiting he's a very he's very real he's got mixed emotions he's got a very human heart and yet this is a great example of what a pre-conversion can we say that

Yes.

Chapter 1 is all about his pre-conversion years, and you actually described it pretty aptly.

It's a little bit mixed.

Before his conversion to the faith and total dedication to the Lord, it wasn't that he was... a man of evil debauchery who was the worst sinner of sinners.

Compared to St. Augustine, he was relatively innocent and even generous.

But at the same time, we also have the picture in chapter 1 that he was somebody who enjoyed good things and he enjoyed fun and he enjoyed good food.

And Francis comes along, and every day this man would take off his cloak and spread it before Francis.

That's where we were, where I cut you off before the break.

This truth that we're rediscovering right now in formation, and actually in our broader culture, is something St. Thomas talked about.

Of, of, uh, sexual sins, uh, habitual sexual sins rob us of inner strength, and it's the strength that we need for our own agency, for our freedom.

And, and we thrive as human beings when we are able to use our freedom to love.

This is, uh, a growing, uh...

When we turn away from this, uh, generosity of self towards others, when we turn away from, uh, uh, intimacy and meaningful relationships with one another, it's at for us psychologically.

We're not wired for that.

And those very things that held you captive prior now become the, uh, power source almost, if you will, the rocket fuel for holiness.

We are still in the moment.

Yeah.

And in fact, this whole thing, you know, the themes of angel and John the Baptist, Elijah and John, they're all tied together, right? In this section.

And the angel of true peace, he kind of begins and ends with angel at this final part.

And Angel is messenger.

Angel is prophet.

There's fire in this prophecy.

I'm hoping, Anthony, you might be able to tell our next time that those who are beginning this journey with Saint Francis, do you have any thoughts for them, what they could do in this time, more than just a mere study of his life?

We are still in the moment.

Yeah.

And in fact, this whole thing, you know, the themes of angel and John the Baptist, Elijah and John, they're all tied together, right? In this section.

And the angel of true peace, he kind of begins and ends with angel at this final part.

And Angel is messenger.

Angel is prophet.

There's fire in this prophecy.

I'm hoping, Anthony, you might be able to tell our next time that those who are beginning this journey with Saint Francis, do you have any thoughts for them, what they could do in this time, more than just a mere study of his life?

But before we get started, could you tell us a little bit more about this doctor of the church, St. Bonaventure?

St. Bonaventure was a contemporary of St. Thomas Aquinas.

And so that in the 13th century, both St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure taught together in Paris at the University of Paris.

The Franciscans within Bonaventure's lifetime actually opened up a major house near the university and began hosting one of the chairs of theology there.

And Bonaventure goes there to learn theology and then eventually receives that chair.

And he's contemporary with St. Thomas.

The two of them had conversations about all kinds of different theological matters.

And I think that's true with the lives of every saint, but particularly about Francis.

But before we get started, could you tell us a little bit more about this doctor of the church, St. Bonaventure?

St. Bonaventure was a contemporary of St. Thomas Aquinas.

And so that in the 13th century, both St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure taught together in Paris at the University of Paris.

The Franciscans within Bonaventure's lifetime actually opened up a major house near the university and began hosting one of the chairs of theology there.

And Bonaventure goes there to learn theology and then eventually receives that chair.

And he's contemporary with St. Thomas.

The two of them had conversations about all kinds of different theological matters.

And I think that's true with the lives of every saint, but particularly about Francis.

And the Lord chooses all sorts of instruments, but over time it's helped them to understand, to walk out of that place of shame and to bring that, which is what you've talked about there with confession, right? So that's a big thing.

Yeah, Dan, I don't know if you heard this, but Father Jesse added three dimensions to the initial proposal.

You know, not only a prayer in the Mass, not only frequent confession, not only making sure you're around the right friends, but he also added to that chastity.

Mm-hmm.

And that, you know, you're going to be living a life of celibate chastity.

Well, you don't have to wait for religious life to do that.

It begins now.

But Dr. Lewis, what is your what's your perspective on prayer? What kind of prayer does someone who's discerning need to pray?