‘The Odyssey’ Is the Film Event of the Year. Plus, ‘Resident Evil’ and ‘Clayface’ Trailers.

Jul 23, 2026 · 1 hr 23 min · 11 segments

Chris and Andy talk about the full trailers for ‘Clayface’ (6:15) and ‘Resident Evil’ (13:51), before addressing the online discourse around ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ (18:20). Then they talk about how the prolific British screenwriter Jez Butterworth may be poised to become the next Taylor Sheridan for Paramount (33:12). Later, they share their thoughts on ‘The Odyssey’ and how the movie has become the summer blockbuster (44:18). Subscribe to the [Ringer TV YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@Ringer-TV) here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit [podcastchoices.com/adchoices](https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices)

Speakers: Andy GreenwaldHostChris RyanHost

Top entities: The Odyssey×12 Resident Evil×12 Chris Ryan×12 Guselkumab×8 Penelope×6

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Show Open & Host Greeting1:00 – 1:30

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00

[percussive music] I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08

Stand up and walk, now.

Chris RyanHost1:11

Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost1:13

My name is Chris Ryan.

Chris RyanHost1:15

I am an editor at theringer.com, and joining me in the studio, now every time his daughters ask for more food, he says, "Somebody get these beggars out of here." It's Andy Greenwald.

Chris RyanHost1:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:28

Sometimes when I come in, I can see that you're sitting on one.

Travel, Heat Domes & Unhealthy Food Memories1:31 – 7:15

Chris RyanHost1:31

Let me tell you something.

Chris RyanHost1:31

It's been a c- a t- weird 10, 12, two weeks.

Chris RyanHost1:35

Maybe t- 12 days, two weeks.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:36

Okay.

Chris RyanHost1:37

Because, um, been traveling.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:40

You have.

Chris RyanHost1:40

Haven't been able to exercise as much as I would like to because a heat dome, uh, in the air, on the road-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:47

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:47

... watching World Cup.

Chris RyanHost1:48

And then they took, they took my sweet, sweet vegetables away from me.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:52

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:52

You know? Like [laughs] so I've basically been eating, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:56

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:57

... uh, CR's 13-year-old diet.

Chris RyanHost2:00

I'm surprised I'm not just taking out, like, full quarts of Ocean Spray cranberry juice out of the fridge.

Chris RyanHost2:06

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:06

Are, are you back to, like, the peak days of mac and cheese with crumbled Pringles on top?

Chris RyanHost2:10

That was...

Chris RyanHost2:11

Uh, w- by the way, we're gonna talk about regular television-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:14

I, I'm-

Chris RyanHost2:14

... before I get into my culinary corner.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:16

I'm leaning in.

Chris RyanHost2:17

Today we are gonna talk a little bit about The Odyssey joining the other 714 episodes-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost2:21

... of Analysis that you can get from The Ringer Podcast network.

Chris RyanHost2:24

Uh, we also have some news at the top that we wanted to go through.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:26

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost2:26

Some trailers, some TV news.

Chris RyanHost2:28

Um, and also we'll do some housekeeping about when we're doing what shows, because I think people are getting annoyed that we haven't finished The Agency yet.

Chris RyanHost2:36

Although I know you're plugging away.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:37

Yeah, I'm having-

Chris RyanHost2:37

I know you're plugging away

Andy GreenwaldHost2:38

...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:38

I'm having a great time.

Chris RyanHost2:39

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:39

So thank you.

Chris RyanHost2:40

Um, when I was younger-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:42

Yeah

Chris RyanHost2:43

... my two staples were either a heavily mayonnaise-based pasta salad that I would make-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:49

Mayonnaise-based.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:51

[laughs] Uh-huh.

Chris RyanHost2:52

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:52

But it's, it's mayonnaise-based, like a hyphen.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:54

Not mayonnaise, comma, based.

Chris RyanHost2:56

No, not like Lil B.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:57

Yeah, yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:57

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost2:58

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:58

That's what I was thinking.

Chris RyanHost2:58

It was-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:59

Okay

Chris RyanHost2:59

...

Chris RyanHost2:59

although it was pretty based.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:00

And, and you made this.

Chris RyanHost3:01

Yes.

Chris RyanHost3:02

And it w- I'll, I'll...

Chris RyanHost3:03

If you were curious about what it tasted like-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:05

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost3:06

...

Chris RyanHost3:06

I started to develop this recipe when I was studying-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:09

Develop.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:09

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost3:09

... studying abroad in Cork.

Chris RyanHost3:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:12

Yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:12

I-

Chris RyanHost3:12

In Ireland.

Chris RyanHost3:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:13

I started this when I was studying under Ferran Adria in Spain.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:16

No.

Chris RyanHost3:17

No, [laughs] no.

Chris RyanHost3:17

It wasn't El Bulli.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:19

You, you were in-

Chris RyanHost3:19

It was El going to the whatever the ASDA was in Cork, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:23

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost3:23

...

Chris RyanHost3:24

Ireland.

Chris RyanHost3:24

And it was basically pasta and mayonnaise and, like, canned corn.

Chris RyanHost3:28

And it was, uh...

Chris RyanHost3:30

Even the Irish people that I knew were like-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:32

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost3:34

... "Yo, [laughs] this needs an acid," you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost3:37

Wow.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:38

Okay, so that was-

Chris RyanHost3:39

But it almost, like, went so far beyond-

Andy GreenwaldHost3:41

Yeah

Chris RyanHost3:41

... fat to umami, you know what I mean? Like...

Chris RyanHost3:43

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:43

It was just sort of the mouth feel, like it coated your whole insides-

Chris RyanHost3:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost3:47

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost3:47

...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:47

in a protective layer.

Chris RyanHost3:48

Um, and, uh, yes.

Chris RyanHost3:49

And then Andy, as, as you mentioned, like, for a long time I was just like, "I'm hungry.

Chris RyanHost3:53

I guess I'll just have Kraft Mac and Cheese and crushed Pringles on it."

Andy GreenwaldHost3:55

But there's stuff like, who do we...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:57

You know, not to be therapy corner here, but, like, who do you blame for this? Now because, and the reason I say this-

Chris RyanHost4:02

No, my, my mother actually, uh, you know, um, was pretty good about f- but we had, like, I had, like, a lovely upbringing of culinary delights.

Chris RyanHost4:10

And-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:10

Sure

Chris RyanHost4:10

... and both parents cooked, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:13

Really?

Chris RyanHost4:13

...

Chris RyanHost4:13

they didn't bore me.

Chris RyanHost4:14

Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:14

Did your dad cook too?

Chris RyanHost4:15

Yeah, he grilled.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:16

He did it.

Chris RyanHost4:16

He grilled.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:17

Hell yeah.

Chris RyanHost4:17

And, uh, took me to McDonald's [laughs] so that he could drink beers.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:21

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:21

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost4:22

Which I didn't know was not a thing.

Chris RyanHost4:24

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:24

But he couldn't drink beers while grilling.

Chris RyanHost4:26

Uh, he could.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:27

He respected the-

Chris RyanHost4:28

He could

Andy GreenwaldHost4:28

... okay.

Chris RyanHost4:29

Uh, but yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:30

He-

Chris RyanHost4:30

I mean, like, I grew up, like, in a, you know, food groups positive household.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:34

Yeah, I mean, my, I th-

Chris RyanHost4:35

But I, I think I just left the house.

Chris RyanHost4:38

You know, only child, man.

Chris RyanHost4:39

Like, I-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:39

It's the, it's the only child thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:41

Because I also...

Andy GreenwaldHost4:42

Like, we both had working moms who m- cooked dinner.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:45

I mean, it's amazing.

Chris RyanHost4:45

Working mothers.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:46

I know.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:46

We support them-

Chris RyanHost4:47

Salute them

Andy GreenwaldHost4:47

... on this podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:48

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost4:48

Yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:48

Unlike some podcasts.

Chris RyanHost4:49

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost4:50

And, um, although I was gonna s- I was gonna make a Chris Nolan joke, but I guess Penelope is, you know-

Chris RyanHost4:55

She's, she's practically the, the, the queen regent

Andy GreenwaldHost4:58

... yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:58

She can't cover of the Atlantic Magazine.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:00

No, cover of the, the Mediterranean Magazine.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:02

[laughs] You can have it all.

Chris RyanHost5:03

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:04

Um, the problem is that you leave home, and you show up at college or wherever your-

Chris RyanHost5:10

Uh-huh

Andy GreenwaldHost5:10

... next station is in life, just believing that certain things that are deeply idiosyncratic to your household, or specifically, like, your parents, are universal.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:18

So that when I arrived in, in, in college, and it'd be like...

Andy GreenwaldHost5:22

Or, or like later in college when we had our own kitchen, and it would be like, ah, time for a night for me.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:28

And my mom's staple, like, I'll just do me nights for dinner were, um, buttered noodles cooked in, uh, canned chicken broth-

Chris RyanHost5:37

Hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost5:38

... which is quite salty-

Chris RyanHost5:39

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost5:39

... and a microwave Stouffer's spinach souffle.

Chris RyanHost5:43

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:43

A classic combo for the Mid-Atlantic palate.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:47

Or something that she called potato chip dip-

Chris RyanHost5:50

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost5:50

... which was, for dinner, a bag of ridged potato chips, Herr's brand of course, and a dip that I believe was just Philadelphia cream cheese-

Chris RyanHost5:59

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:00

Yes.

Chris RyanHost6:00

That was-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:01

... ketchup, and one onion.

Chris RyanHost6:02

You have to also understand, Andy and I grew up-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:04

Yeah

Chris RyanHost6:04

...

Chris RyanHost6:04

in the, in the- The seat of power of cream cheese.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:08

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost6:08

The cradle- the cream cheese-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:09

We had to w- it was like spam in Hawaii.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:11

You have to work it into every dish.

Chris RyanHost6:12

Yeah, and it just wound up being a very prevalent thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:14

But-

Chris RyanHost6:14

Like, I thought dipping, uh, Snyder's hard, hard pretzels into cream cheese-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:20

Oh, yeah

Chris RyanHost6:21

... was, was the, honestly the highest ecstasy you could experience-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:25

Chris

Chris RyanHost6:25

...

Chris RyanHost6:25

in food.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:26

Where are Snyder's pretzels from?

Chris RyanHost6:28

Uh, where, uh, well, where are they?

Andy GreenwaldHost6:30

John Fetterman's Pennsylvania.

Chris RyanHost6:31

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:31

Right.

Chris RyanHost6:32

Oh, yes, of course.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:33

Hanover.

Chris RyanHost6:33

Yeah, I thought you were trying to trick me into saying, like, Mitch McConnell's Kentucky or something.

Chris RyanHost6:37

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:37

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:37

Although, thoughts and prayers.

Chris RyanHost6:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:39

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:39

Um, but the problem is now the pendulum has swung-

Chris RyanHost6:43

Mitch McConnell's like, "I'm alive." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:44

He's like, he's just eating pretzels.

Chris RyanHost6:44

When are you guys gonna finish the agency? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost6:48

Yes, it takes.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:50

Um, I just feel like the pendulum has swung too far the other way, where, like, now I have children who are like, "Dad, have you ever eaten at Burger King?" And I was like, "My dears, like, you are, like, probably 15%-

Chris RyanHost7:03

Burger King

Andy GreenwaldHost7:03

...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:03

Burger King chicken sandwich-

Chris RyanHost7:04

Yeah, exactly

Andy GreenwaldHost7:05

... like, just from you.

Chris RyanHost7:06

Just the, you are [laughs] we can trace your line back to the king himself.

Chris RyanHost7:09

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:09

The king, you're royalty.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:11

You are the children of royalty.

Chris RyanHost7:12

It's like a Targaryen thing.

Chris RyanHost7:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:13

That's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:14

Your hair color may have changed.

Shifting Gears to Media Topics7:15 – 7:17

Chris RyanHost7:15

I wanted to talk to you about a couple of things.

Horror Trailer Round-Up: Clayface & Resident Evil7:17 – 19:21

Chris RyanHost7:17

You know, a few weeks ago, when we were wrapping up, uh, Widow's Bay-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:21

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:21

Good show

Chris RyanHost7:21

... you had also dipped into Weapons, the Zach Cregger movie-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:25

Yeah

Chris RyanHost7:25

... from a couple years ago.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:27

La- last year.

Chris RyanHost7:28

Which was, uh, which was awesome and one of my favorite films of-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:30

Yeah

Chris RyanHost7:30

... of last year.

Chris RyanHost7:32

And you declared, chest out, "I'm ready to get scared.

Chris RyanHost7:37

I'm ready to be scared again," or, or just, "For the first time in my life, I'm ready to experience-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:41

Yeah, first time

Chris RyanHost7:41

... true unbridled cinematic fear."

Andy GreenwaldHost7:44

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost7:44

You didn't put it that way.

Chris RyanHost7:45

You actually were like, "As long as there's some irony and, and, and some-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:48

Chris RyanHost7:48

... [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost7:49

Just some well-observed emotional beats-

Chris RyanHost7:51

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost7:51

...

Andy GreenwaldHost7:51

in the characters before they have their intestines removed through their mouths.

Chris RyanHost7:54

Yes.

Chris RyanHost7:55

Uh, you, you just, you declared that you were sort of preparing yourself for-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:59

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost7:59

... more adventurous film and TV going in the world of horror.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:01

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:01

Now, we have a couple-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:02

Year 14 of a podcast, time to get adventurous

Chris RyanHost8:04

... things g- coming.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:06

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:06

Uh, we had talked about these two titles earlier when their teasers came out.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:11

And now two new films, um, September's Resident Evil, which, uh, I'm prepared to dedicate my entire life to-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:18

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost8:19

... is coming, and we got a full trailer for that.

Chris RyanHost8:21

And then we also got the full trailer for Clayface-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:24

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost8:24

... which is the...

Chris RyanHost8:25

Uh, is it the first non-super Gunnverse DC movie?

Andy GreenwaldHost8:30

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:30

Well, this is the th- this would be the third movie.

Chris RyanHost8:34

It's the third movie-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:35

I mean-

Chris RyanHost8:35

...

Chris RyanHost8:35

since he took over.

Chris RyanHost8:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:36

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost8:36

He and Peter Safran took over.

Chris RyanHost8:37

So, uh, did you get scared? Are you ready?

Andy GreenwaldHost8:41

Mm.

Chris RyanHost8:41

Are you ready to, to see-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:44

Chris RyanHost8:44

... what makes noise in the dark?

Andy GreenwaldHost8:45

I, well, I think there's two ways to look at this.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:48

Like, the trailer for Clayface looks like, looks well done.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:52

It, uh, looks like they have correctly chosen a lane.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:55

Like, I don't think there will be, like, ironic, slow core, you know, Lumineers-esque Jimmy Eat World covers in this one.

Chris RyanHost9:02

[snorts]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:03

I don't think it's Jim Gunn house style, which I think is good for the brand, uh, of DC, not necessarily for his own brand.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:09

And it 100% looks like a movie I don't wanna see, but I don't mean that as, like, a-

Chris RyanHost9:15

'Cause it's scary.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:16

Well, it just looks like they're leaning full into...

Andy GreenwaldHost9:20

Uh, I, if I say it's Cronenbergian, that sounds like the Russo brothers saying that they're doing Polanski here.

Chris RyanHost9:24

I think you would be joining a chorus of people who have pointed that out, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:26

I, I don't think that's necessarily true.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:29

Um, it struck me also having some, like, Sam Raimi Darkman vibes.

Chris RyanHost9:33

If it does, I think it would be to its benefit.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:36

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:36

Uh, they have certainly downplayed the h- humor in that film.

Chris RyanHost9:42

If, if, if there is humor in Clayface-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:44

Clayface

Chris RyanHost9:44

...

Chris RyanHost9:44

they have sort of downplayed it in the trailers, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:47

Mm.

Chris RyanHost9:47

I think the big thing here is that I believe it is an R-rated b- movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:50

Yes.

Chris RyanHost9:50

And, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:51

Sure

Chris RyanHost9:51

... that, you know...

Chris RyanHost9:54

It, it's, it's kinda weird in 2026 with, like, the access everybody has to so much that PG-13 is still a thing, you know? Like, I, I, I think that, I wonder if it is kinda antiquated.

Chris RyanHost10:08

Like, d- they don't check IDs at movie theaters.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:10

We were just, I mean, this is gonna come up a lot in today's podcast, but my 13-year-old daughter accompanied me to The Odyssey, and she was a little worried-

Chris RyanHost10:20

That she would get carded?

Andy GreenwaldHost10:20

... that she was gonna get carded.

Chris RyanHost10:21

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:22

Um-

Chris RyanHost10:22

But can't you go to an R movie if you're with an adult?

Andy GreenwaldHost10:25

Yes.

Chris RyanHost10:25

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:26

That, as, as my friend Brian's mother learned when she took us to see Basic Instinct-

Chris RyanHost10:30

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:31

... at the multiplex outside of Disney World.

Chris RyanHost10:33

I gotta, I assure you, no one was checking when we went to go see Menace II Society for the second time.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:37

Yeah, the second time.

Chris RyanHost10:37

They were like, "Come on in." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost10:39

You get to put the II in Menace II Society.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:41

Um, she was actually very articulately saying that there should be a, another rating in between for, like, mature teenagers.

Chris RyanHost10:48

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:49

You know? Um-

Chris RyanHost10:50

Shockingly, my, my, my, my friends in the audience [laughs] at Chest- on Chestnut Street did not want my takes on O-Dog [laughs] from Menace II Society.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:58

Were you offering them? [laughs]

Chris RyanHost10:59

Yeah, that was one of my worst, uh, faux pas ever committed in a movie theater-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:03

Chris RyanHost11:03

... where I'd seen it, and then-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:05

Right, this was your second

Chris RyanHost11:06

...

Chris RyanHost11:06

I did, like, what I do every once in a while, like, where, like, I see Training Day or whatever, and then I go to every man I know [laughs] and say, "We have to go see Training Day again."

Andy GreenwaldHost11:14

You did do that.

Chris RyanHost11:14

And, uh, so the, the original one was Menace II Society where, like, I, I think I'd seen it with my dad.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:20

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost11:21

And then I was like every friend I had in school.

Chris RyanHost11:24

I was like, "We gotta go see fucking Menace II Society." So we went-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:26

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost11:26

...

Chris RyanHost11:26

I think at, like, a 3:30 or something, maybe we went on a Saturday, to, on Chestnut Street in Philly.

Chris RyanHost11:33

And I was like-

Andy GreenwaldHost11:33

I believe that theater is now a CVS

Chris RyanHost11:35

... "And now, and then there's gonna be a part where fucking O-Dog goes into the fucking thing," and he's like, "Yo." And this guy turned around [laughs] and he goes, "Excuse me.

Chris RyanHost11:43

I haven't seen the movie yet." [laughs] And I didn't talk for two years.

Chris RyanHost11:49

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:49

Did you explain to him the idea-

Chris RyanHost11:50

I became Clayface.

Chris RyanHost11:52

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:52

Is this your origin story for rewatching films? Like, I feel like this is your traumatic Bruce Wayne parents getting down in the y- in the alley.

Chris RyanHost12:00

Yeah, I mean-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:00

You know, you wanted to own the fear-

Chris RyanHost12:01

I, I choose to think of it-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:02

... and now you do this for a living

Chris RyanHost12:03

... as, like, my, my enthusiasm for movies is contagious, you know? And not always welcome.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:07

It's infectious.

Chris RyanHost12:08

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:08

Really.

Chris RyanHost12:08

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:09

Incredible story.

Chris RyanHost12:10

So Clayface Yes, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:13

Well, I, I think there's a couple things about it that I think are worth noting.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:16

One is it is [laughs] a very, very interesting, um, IMDb page because this project began with a guy you are a fan of, Mike Flanagan, who is sort of the, the auteur of horror on television, and he was developing this maybe for TV, maybe for movies, wrote the screenplay.

Chris RyanHost12:32

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:32

Um, and then when James Watkins, who's directed Black Mirror and a lot of British television-

Chris RyanHost12:37

On did the, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:38

... came on to direct it.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:38

He's done horror movies as well, right?

Chris RyanHost12:41

See No Evil or, yeah, Speak No Evil, I think, uh, whatever the adaptation of the original.

Chris RyanHost12:44

Um, I can look it up, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:45

When, when he came on to do it, he brought-

Chris RyanHost12:48

Speak No Evil, sorry

Andy GreenwaldHost12:49

...

Andy GreenwaldHost12:49

he brought 60-year-old Hossein Amini on to, to rewrite the script and get a credit, and I think we remember him from such things as, uh, Wings of the Dove-

Chris RyanHost12:59

It was-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:59

... and Jude in the '90s

Chris RyanHost13:00

...

Chris RyanHost13:00

Drive, right?

Andy GreenwaldHost13:01

Uh, yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:02

Right.

Chris RyanHost13:02

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:02

So I think that's kind of fascinating.

Chris RyanHost13:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:04

And it is just s- also so deeply English.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:09

They filmed this in Liverpool.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:11

The two stars, well, the stars are Welshman and Naomi Ackie, and then, like, Eddie Marsan and, uh, my g- our guy David Dencik from, uh, Star City.

Chris RyanHost13:19

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:20

And I guess they were like, "Is Max Minghella gonna hang out in the UK a little bit longer?"

Chris RyanHost13:25

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost13:26

'Cause he's also in this.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:27

Uh, it, anyway, it...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:30

Big picture, I don't, this isn't the type of movie I want to see, but I think that I can see the strategy, and I think it makes a lot of sense.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:37

Particularly, it's particularly fortunate that this is the next movie after the financial wipeout of Supergirl-

Chris RyanHost13:45

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost13:45

... because you need to diversify the portfolio, my brothers.

Chris RyanHost13:48

Yeah, I will be curious to see whether Clayface has any connective tissue to that side of the, the-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:53

What, what city-

Chris RyanHost13:53

...

Chris RyanHost13:53

DC storytelling

Andy GreenwaldHost13:54

... what city is Clayface living in?

Chris RyanHost13:56

Philly?

Andy GreenwaldHost13:57

Good guess.

Chris RyanHost13:58

Liverpool?

Andy GreenwaldHost13:59

Great guess.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:00

I mean, I would say culturally similar.

Chris RyanHost14:02

Metropolis? What's that place called?

Andy GreenwaldHost14:05

Gotham City, dude.

Chris RyanHost14:06

Oh, fuck.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:08

Gotham-

Chris RyanHost14:08

Damn

Andy GreenwaldHost14:09

...

Andy GreenwaldHost14:09

City.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:10

You wanna talk about the football club there, like Gotham United? [laughs]

Chris RyanHost14:13

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost14:13

Do they have-

Chris RyanHost14:14

Um, the other one is-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:15

Yeah, so, so, so, so this is establishing Gotham City in the Gunnverse, and I thought it was interesting that Matt Reeves has an executive producer credit on this movie, and I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that he's like, he's [laughs] like the landlord.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:28

He keeps keys in his hand for Gotham-

Chris RyanHost14:31

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost14:31

... at the moment, right?

Chris RyanHost14:33

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:34

Is that what that reference is? [laughs] That's what-

Chris RyanHost14:35

Wait, what...

Chris RyanHost14:36

That's a rap line, isn't it?

Andy GreenwaldHost14:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:38

"Label me landlord, I keep keys in my hand."

Chris RyanHost14:40

That's Pusha?

Andy GreenwaldHost14:41

Mm.

Chris RyanHost14:42

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:42

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost14:42

Uh... [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost14:43

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:44

It's not really relevant.

Chris RyanHost14:45

You know what? I think the way you delivered it didn't quite have the nasal cadence that Pusha T-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:49

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:49

[clears throat]

Chris RyanHost14:50

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost14:50

He is a contemporary of ours.

Chris RyanHost14:51

Yes.

Chris RyanHost14:51

The other movie that I wanted to ask you about is Resident Evil.

Chris RyanHost14:54

We watched the teaser.

Chris RyanHost14:55

I wouldn't even say that this trailer is that much different than the teaser.

Chris RyanHost14:58

The thing I loved most about this trailer is I am fairly confident that what's in the trailer is, like, the first five minutes of the movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:05

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost15:05

And that is a brilliant thing to do if you're doing a horror trailer.

Chris RyanHost15:08

I hope they don't do another one.

Chris RyanHost15:10

I think it's Resident Evil.

Chris RyanHost15:12

It's the guy who made Barbarian Weapons.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:13

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost15:13

That should be enough to get you through the door.

Chris RyanHost15:15

But having zombie bodies falling from roofs and exploding into blood plumes, uh, uh, that's just what it's all about, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:26

And, and from the other side of the aisle-

Chris RyanHost15:28

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost15:29

... genuinely, this movie looks a lot more interesting to me, partly because of my very positive experience with Weapons.

Chris RyanHost15:34

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:35

But also, like, I mean, you love Austin Abrams, who's the star of this movie.

Chris RyanHost15:39

I do.

Chris RyanHost15:39

He's very talented.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:39

A lot of it, a lot of it is on him.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:41

But I, I really liked that what we see in the trailer leans into some humanity.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:48

Like, there's the beginning of it before he wanders into this, like, video game hellscape.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:52

Um, but also has a little bit of lightness and sense of humor about itself in that the trailer, like the, the, the, the hammer of the trailer is Raccoon City, which is the famous, infamous name of the town in the video game-

Chris RyanHost16:07

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost16:07

... which is just, like, such a classic, weird Japanese to English translation.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:10

Um, I think a more heavy-handed or serious-minded director might have changed that, and I like that he's like-

Chris RyanHost16:16

Changed Raccoon City?

Andy GreenwaldHost16:17

Yes.

Chris RyanHost16:18

No, you can't change Raccoon City.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:20

Oh, this is the one that you're gonna... [laughs] I can't wait-

Chris RyanHost16:21

No, that name rings out.

Chris RyanHost16:22

Come on.

Chris RyanHost16:22

It's Raccoon City.

Chris RyanHost16:23

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:23

I, I can't wait to hear it.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:24

But then we get to The Odyssey, he'll be like, "Actually, Sinon's a character from the Aeneid."

Chris RyanHost16:28

No. [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:29

Like, it'll be incredible what you got pedantic about.

Chris RyanHost16:31

I'm the Emily Wilson of Resident Evil.

Chris RyanHost16:33

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost16:34

Of, of Konami horror video games.

Chris RyanHost16:36

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost16:36

No, I, I just like that it is, it's a little bit, it, it's tongue in cheek a little bit.

Chris RyanHost16:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:40

Like, he knows what he's doing, and it just made me think again about something that I'm sure you and Sean have spoken about much more articulately than I can, which is that, like, there is a connection for people who know how to do horror with people who know how to do comedy, and I think it has to do with-

Chris RyanHost16:55

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost16:55

... timing and manipulating audience's expectation buildup and release.

Chris RyanHost16:59

And they have found the, the third part of that triangle-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:02

Yeah

Chris RyanHost17:02

... which is dudes who used to [laughs] smoke a pack of Camel Lights and play Resident Evil.

Chris RyanHost17:06

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost17:06

Hell yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:07

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost17:07

So no, I thought that looked really cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:09

I, I will, as I promised, I will be, uh, sprinkling the show with references to my journey to the IMAX theater this week with my daughter, and her main concern about seeing the movie wasn't seeing the movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:22

It was that by seeing an R movie, she's like, "I bet there'll be a lot of really inappropriate or horror trailers." And I was like, "Absolutely not." No one does red band trailers anymore.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:31

They aren't gonna show...

Andy GreenwaldHost17:32

So all of the trailers [laughs] were-

Chris RyanHost17:34

Now are just, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost17:35

...

Andy GreenwaldHost17:35

it was Resident Evil.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:36

It was the movie where Jessica Chastain burns pasta for her child-

Chris RyanHost17:40

Other Mommy, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost17:40

... and then becomes a demon.

Chris RyanHost17:41

I actually have to say, I didn't know...

Chris RyanHost17:44

There's some misinformation online about-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:46

N- stop there

Chris RyanHost17:47

... about Other Mommy.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:48

Okay.

Chris RyanHost17:48

On the IMDb logline for at least when I talked about it on Big Picture-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:52

Right

Chris RyanHost17:52

... like, a week or two ago, the IMDb logline for Other Mommy suggested that there was a demon living in this house that was flatulent.

Chris RyanHost17:59

A flatulent devin- demon-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:01

Chris RyanHost18:01

... lived in this house, and that the family has to, like, rid itself of this, I guess, farting demon.

Chris RyanHost18:06

That didn't sound right to me, but I repeated it.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:09

You, so you announced this.

Chris RyanHost18:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost18:11

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:11

So you contributed to this misinfo campaign.

Chris RyanHost18:13

I, I insisted, and I read it from the Internet Movie Database.

Chris RyanHost18:17

You know, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:17

Wow

Chris RyanHost18:17

... and so-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:18

Did your own research again

Chris RyanHost18:19

...

Chris RyanHost18:20

I, I think I was wrong about that.

Chris RyanHost18:22

And-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:22

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:22

[laughs] I would say so

Chris RyanHost18:23

... delightfully so because I have had the Other Mommy nightmare Like when I was a kid-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:30

Go on

Chris RyanHost18:30

... you have the nightmare that you have to choose between two moms-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:33

Right

Chris RyanHost18:33

... and you keep being like, "Which one of you is my mom?" And one is like, "You have to choose," and the other one is insisting.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:38

And the other one is making potato chip dip out of off-brand cream cheese, and you're like, "Well, that's the tell."

Chris RyanHost18:44

Baltimore cream cheese.

Chris RyanHost18:45

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:45

What? Come on.

Chris RyanHost18:47

Uh, and then you choose the wrong mom.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:49

Right.

Chris RyanHost18:49

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost18:49

And then your dad-

Andy GreenwaldHost18:50

And then your dad's out back grilling.

Chris RyanHost18:51

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:51

And he's like, "Don't worry about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:53

Your new mom's fine." Uh, that was disturbing.

Chris RyanHost18:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:58

And then perhaps most disturbing of all was there was a red band trailer for the film Digger.

Chris RyanHost19:04

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:04

Um, can't wait to see a rollicking political comedy made by a man who has evinced no sense of humor across his 20-year career.

Chris RyanHost19:12

In your review or Cruise?

Andy GreenwaldHost19:13

In your review.

Chris RyanHost19:13

Yeah, okay.

Chris RyanHost19:13

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:13

Cruise likes to laugh.

Chris RyanHost19:14

He, yeah, he chuckles.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:16

Yeah, he, he doesn't chuckle, he brayes.

Chris RyanHost19:17

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost19:17

He throws his head back and commits.

Chris RyanHost19:20

A couple other things.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:21

Okay.

Marvel State of the Union & The Doomsday Dilemma19:21 – 31:09

Chris RyanHost19:21

We smoked a little bit of the Feige pack last episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:24

There's gonna be some news.

Chris RyanHost19:25

About probably the X-Men cast.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:27

Maybe they might throw a few more actors into Doomsday.

Chris RyanHost19:30

But he did some interview, Feige did an interview-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:32

Yeah

Chris RyanHost19:32

... recently which got aggregated.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:33

They're doing Spider-Man press.

Chris RyanHost19:34

Yeah, and he talked to I think a Chinese website, a Chinese news outlet, and was like-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:39

Just about other mommy.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:40

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost19:40

[laughs] He's like, "That demon is not Flatiron."

Andy GreenwaldHost19:44

No.

Chris RyanHost19:44

It's about, uh, he was talking about how they have at least the broad strokes-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:49

Right

Chris RyanHost19:49

... of Marvel plans, Marvel Cinematic Universe plans stretching to 2042.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:54

Right.

Chris RyanHost19:54

So that would mean somewhere out there-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:57

Yeah

Chris RyanHost19:58

... a baby has just been born-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:00

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost20:00

... that might play Cyclops in the third phase [laughs] of-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:03

Of X-Men babies.

Chris RyanHost20:04

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost20:04

No, 2042, if you're born in 2026-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:07

Oh, you mean a baby today

Chris RyanHost20:08

... like an 18-year-old, right, wouldn't you-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:10

Sure

Chris RyanHost20:10

... be?

Andy GreenwaldHost20:11

Y- yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:12

You've done it again.

Chris RyanHost20:13

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost20:14

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost20:14

Incredible.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:15

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost20:15

So, uh, I thought that this was interesting because I think I've been a little hard on him.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:23

Is this the zag?

Chris RyanHost20:25

It's not a zag.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:25

Did you speak to your constituents?

Chris RyanHost20:26

But I was thinking about, I was listening to Midnight Boys, and they were arguing back and forth about the, the Doomsday trailer, and I will say this to his credit, Feige's credit.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:37

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost20:37

I don't like his visual sensibility, that he is obviously...

Chris RyanHost20:40

You cannot blame anyone else but him for why these movies look the way they look.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:44

Right.

Chris RyanHost20:44

And in some ways I understand because I think that a lot of the stuff in Marvel movies needs to be rendered with CGI.

Chris RyanHost20:51

Like, I don't think you can...

Chris RyanHost20:53

You can't really do practical effect-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:55

Well, as Chloe-

Chris RyanHost20:56

...

Chris RyanHost20:56

Galactus

Andy GreenwaldHost20:56

... as Chloe Zhao learned.

Chris RyanHost20:58

Yes.

Chris RyanHost20:59

That's true.

Chris RyanHost20:59

That is true.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:00

She tried.

Chris RyanHost21:00

But, um, you, you add up a lot of the curve balls that have been thrown their way between the insistence that they pump Disney+ full of streaming-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:09

Right

Chris RyanHost21:09

...

Chris RyanHost21:09

TV, then the pullback from that.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:12

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost21:13

COVID and the strikes, and the tragic passing of Cha- Chadwick Boseman-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:18

Huge

Chris RyanHost21:18

... as Black Panther.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:18

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost21:18

And the, uh, the s- left, the left turn they had to make after Jonathan Majors, uh, to their, you know, became unemployable to their mind and, and Hollywood at large, it seems.

Chris RyanHost21:31

They have had to adjust a lot of these things.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:34

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost21:34

You know, now I don't always, obviously I don't, but I, I, I guess like when I was listening to, to Van and Charles and Jomi and Steve, I was like, "You know what? This has been a tough like last couple of years."

Andy GreenwaldHost21:45

Right.

Chris RyanHost21:45

And so maybe that has something to do with why Doomsday is like we have to like kinda clear the decks, which is now sort of what he is leading with as the-

Andy GreenwaldHost21:54

Yes

Chris RyanHost21:54

...

Chris RyanHost21:54

the headline of, he's like, "These movies will set us up for the next generation of Marvel movies."

Andy GreenwaldHost22:01

Yeah, I mean, I think you touched on this a little bit last week.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:03

Like I, I, the negativity and concern that I feel for Doomsday coming off of that bleak looking trailer has nothing to say about my optimism for starting clean slate with a good cast of the X-Men, with a good director in, um-

Chris RyanHost22:22

Jake Schreier

Andy GreenwaldHost22:23

...

Andy GreenwaldHost22:23

Jake Schreier, and, uh, Sonny, uh, from Who's Done Beef, and Joa- and Joanna Cali-

Chris RyanHost22:29

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost22:29

... writing the script.

Chris RyanHost22:29

It's like the Thunderbolts crew, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:31

I think that's exciting, and I think it could be a good movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:34

I mean, I, you know, I, I saw you say [laughs] that you don't remember where you were during Fantastic Four.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:38

You were traveling.

Chris RyanHost22:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:39

And you were home.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:40

Um, I liked that movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:41

I don't think it necessarily works as a, I don't think it's a great work of art.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:45

I don't think it's necessarily like the most thrilling building block to what's coming out later this year.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:52

But I liked it, and I think they underst- He hasn't lost his ability to understand at their root what's interesting and compelling about a lot of these characters.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:59

That, that-

Chris RyanHost22:59

Do you think that part of the problem with some of the films-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:01

Yeah

Chris RyanHost23:01

... that have come o- out, and I, I'm talking specifically about FF, which, you know, you, you, I think you enjoyed-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:07

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost23:07

...

Chris RyanHost23:07

the specificity of like the idea of-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:11

The family, yeah

Chris RyanHost23:11

...

Chris RyanHost23:11

this kind of retrofuturistic stuff-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:13

Yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost23:13

... and the family.

Chris RyanHost23:14

But that's a movie where, I mean, honestly, like it does seem like Fantastic Four is a little bit of, it's got a little bit of a hex on it like over the years, you know, as they've-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:23

It's, it's a tough one.

Chris RyanHost23:24

Yeah, and it's, it, it's one of those things where we're like this has so much name recognition.

Chris RyanHost23:29

Why, why aren't people coming to this movie?

Andy GreenwaldHost23:32

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost23:33

Um, but I wonder whether it was a little stuck between stations, which a lot of these films recently have been, where you can't really confidently push an entire phase or cinematic universe forward 'cause you're not entirely sure w- how to get where you ultimately wanna go, which is X-Men.

Andy GreenwaldHost23:49

Y-

Chris RyanHost23:49

And-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:49

Yeah, and as they learned with Supergirl, like you can't just count on each step you take being sturdy.

Chris RyanHost23:54

Yes.

Chris RyanHost23:54

And then on the other hand, because you still have to make some gestures towards that, you can't just have like its own, it can't be Ant-Man, you know what I mean? Where it's like we're gonna have fun and do a caper movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:06

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost24:06

You know, you have to build up all this like me- meet these people and understand what they've accomplished, what's their, what's their new kind of object, object-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:15

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost24:15

... that they have to overcome, and then where does that leave not only them but a dozen other characters?

Andy GreenwaldHost24:20

Right.

Chris RyanHost24:21

So I have sympathy for, 'cause I, I just don't think anyone's ever really tried to do this before-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:26

Well-

Chris RyanHost24:26

...

Chris RyanHost24:26

in the history of movies.

Chris RyanHost24:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost24:27

Well, they've never done in either direction.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:29

What was, what was incredibly successful and ultimately- ... exhilarating was when they started making the Marvel movies a- as, as Marvel Studios that led to The Avengers, they wanted to get there, but they were not sure that they would, and they understood that each step they took would have to be taken with great care and make a case for itself on its own in case they had to rip up the playbook-

Chris RyanHost24:51

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost24:51

... and change their minds.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:52

And there were even early missteps, quote-unquote, but like you mentioned Ant-Man, like the origin of Ant-Man is interesting because that was Edgar Wright coming in for a meeting and being like, "I wanna do something crazy."

Chris RyanHost25:02

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:02

And them being like, "We love it.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:04

Go." And then realizing, actually, this thing that we're very delicately trying to build doesn't have the ability to do that.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:12

We have to bring it closer to the house style.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:14

We have to make it a little bit more in line with everything else.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:17

Um, it's not...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:18

Gunn is doing something different by putting Clayface into this so early-

Chris RyanHost25:21

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost25:21

...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:21

I think.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:23

What was incredible about the Marvel run is that then they did it, and then they were stuck in a completely new unique circumstance, which was, how do we do it again? And everything that came out after Endgame was building towards another Avengers event movie-

Chris RyanHost25:37

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost25:37

... no matter what, and you could feel it.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:39

You could feel it in the pressure placed on each one, on the, the greater, um, impact of the missteps, and then how do you...

Andy GreenwaldHost25:47

Ho- I mean, it just depends what side you're looking at it on.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:51

If you're looking at it from a, like, corporate and creative management, getting this movie into theaters this year with Robert Downey Jr., with the Russo brothers, with all this cast returning, is a remarkable feat since they were, had to go zero to 60 with it, right? I mean, they didn't-

Chris RyanHost26:06

It's insanely hard.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:07

It, it, it's wild in the weeks since that tr- trailer dropped, or few days now since that trailer dropped, seeing how many people are posting the Infinity War trailer and being like, "Goddamn, we used to be a society."

Chris RyanHost26:18

For sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:18

And it's true.

Chris RyanHost26:19

And some of that, what they're reacting to is how it, how those characters felt, m- and I think that it's, it's also with hindsight, like, that we go back and say, like, this...

Chris RyanHost26:28

I mean, yes, that was, those, those two films felt like such huge events, but I think that the Midnight Boys really touched on this where it's like the relationship we had to those-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:37

Yeah

Chris RyanHost26:37

... characters was far deeper and well-curated over the course of the, the f- your first few phases of Marvel movies, which also had their missteps.

Chris RyanHost26:45

You know, we forget that we had-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:47

Oh, yeah

Chris RyanHost26:47

...

Chris RyanHost26:47

Thor Dark World, and we had, you know, a Black Widow movie that went into the abyss and-

Andy GreenwaldHost26:51

But, but the charm of Endgame was that it made Dark World incredibly important.

Chris RyanHost26:55

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:56

And, and-

Chris RyanHost26:56

I guess Black Widow came after Avengers, right? Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:58

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:58

But, um, I think to me it, it's what you said.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:02

It's like do you have an organic relationship with actors and roles that build over time to you're excited to see them again, or do you have this forced artificiality nostalgia that all of the multiver- multiversal movies essentially have become, whether you're wink winking at how silly it is that Chris Evans is playing Johnny Storm, or you are somehow building a major plank of your billion dollar hopeful movie rocket ship on the imagined fucking Mandela effect emotion of Channing Tatum playing Gambit.

Chris RyanHost27:37

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:37

Which I insist on reminding our audience never fucking happened.

Chris RyanHost27:41

Never actually happened.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:41

That movie never happened, and him doing that in Deadpool was a kind of another one of these wink wink jokes of how fun it is to play with how much we know about these movies even beyond the movies themselves.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:54

But now it was supposed to be some sort of emotional z- crescendo moment in the trailer that he's fighting Shang-Chi, and I'm like, "We don't know this person-

Chris RyanHost28:03

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost28:03

... and we don't care." Do you know this term? I love this, in the, uh, the, the, the idea of a Glup Shitto.

Chris RyanHost28:10

I don't know this term at all.

Chris RyanHost28:11

Is this a-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:11

This is a term that has been coined, uh, to make fun of people who are, like, really obsessing over the minutia of Star Wars characters.

Chris RyanHost28:19

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost28:19

You know, like, "What is this character's name?" If you're a real fan they're like, "Ah, they brought back Glup Shitto."

Chris RyanHost28:23

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:24

And I think that Channing Tatum's Gambit is the ultimate Glup Shitto-

Chris RyanHost28:28

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost28:28

... of like there are, you know, dozens of people doing the fucking Leo DiCaprio meme-

Chris RyanHost28:34

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost28:34

...

Andy GreenwaldHost28:34

when he's doing it.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:35

But also Gambit himself is such, like, a '90s kid coded...

Andy GreenwaldHost28:41

Like that was the coolest thing ever when there was a Cajun guy wearing-

Chris RyanHost28:44

Who threw-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:44

... body armor who threw flames

Chris RyanHost28:45

... threw flaming cards at people.

Chris RyanHost28:46

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:46

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:46

And then I would just, like, turn the page of the comic and take another spoonful of your [laughs] fucking pasta salad, mayonnaise-smeared pages.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:54

And, like, that's cool.

Chris RyanHost28:57

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost28:57

But, like, we're adults now, you know?

Chris RyanHost29:00

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:00

So, like, I, I think all of this is to say that the idea of rushing to the multiplex to see something that is designed to clear the decks does not feel good.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:14

Like I, I think that there is some rebellion against that in addition to the one that, that you articulated very well and, and Sean did as well and Amanda did as well, which is like we just saw what ambition can look like when married to some version of reality.

Chris RyanHost29:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost29:30

And James Hibbard wrote a really cool piece in The Hollywood Reporter that identified that I...

Chris RyanHost29:36

People want to feel like maybe the thing they're seeing on screen feels real, and that there's like a pivot away from-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:44

Yes

Chris RyanHost29:45

...

Chris RyanHost29:45

I don't mind if everything in this was pre-vis rendered, you know, uh, it has nothing to do with Avatar and, like, what...

Chris RyanHost29:52

Like that's a different kind of level I think of-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:55

Yeah

Chris RyanHost29:55

... marrying technology with filmmaking regardless of how I feel about it.

Chris RyanHost29:59

Like it, it's obviously a huge achievement, but I think that he...

Chris RyanHost30:05

You know, when you hear about Nolan using mirrors so that actors can still feel like they're having an intimate scene-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:12

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost30:12

...

Chris RyanHost30:12

when there's massive IMAX cameras blocking their eye lines, and the actors being like, "It was such a gen-" And s- using fucking mirrors.

Chris RyanHost30:20

It's like [laughs] Like it's so-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:23

Y-

Chris RyanHost30:23

It's so old Hollywood to do something like that, that when you see...

Chris RyanHost30:27

And you know, this might be Alan Cumming being cheeky saying like, "I don't know who I was speaking to-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:32

I love that he's being cheeky

Chris RyanHost30:32

... or what I was talking about or who else is in the room with me when I'm speaking." And you see these scenes in the trailer, which again, to the credit I give Resident Evil, like the stuff that's in the trailer for Doomsday might happen in the first 15 minutes of Doomsday, and all those people die.

Chris RyanHost30:46

You know what I mean?

Andy GreenwaldHost30:46

Or might not be in it.

Chris RyanHost30:47

Or they get incurred-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:48

And-

Chris RyanHost30:48

... out of, you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:50

Yeah, and I, and I think there's like understood things that will prob- most likely be in this movie.

Chris RyanHost30:54

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:55

Like, like Deadpool, like multiple Spider-Men.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:57

Like-

Chris RyanHost30:57

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost30:57

... they're not giving all that away.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:59

Er, but, but it's weird how much we're being held prisoner by this.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:03

Like the, the most mocked still from the trailer is just this awful blocking negative space room of C-list heroes.

Early Reflections on The Odyssey Film31:09 – 32:37

Chris RyanHost31:09

Oh, yeah, all of them standing around, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:11

And people have frozen that frame and pointed out the giant Doom-shaped hole in the middle because they don't wanna give the plot away that he's most likely, if it's anything like some of the Hickman comics, when he's introduced, he's like, "I am going to save reality."

Chris RyanHost31:23

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:24

"And I need your help."

Chris RyanHost31:25

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:25

As opposed to then I'm also evil or whatever.

Chris RyanHost31:27

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:28

Um, but, and, and, and, you know, I, I wanna...

Andy GreenwaldHost31:32

We will talk more about The Odyssey in a moment, I'm sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:34

But like i- absolutely two of my favorite, favorite scenes in the movie were examples of, um, old-fashioned artistry and restraint-

Chris RyanHost31:45

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost31:45

... which are just out of fashion, and certainly hard to argue for if you are not one of the few directors who can put butts in seats.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:52

But like the Sersi transformation scene is theatrical.

Chris RyanHost31:56

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:56

And it's, it's physical, and it's interesting, and the way that the camera moves contributes to what we see and what we don't see in ways that you understand that it's, quote-unquote, artificial, but it feels organic because someone's making the decision to move the camera and show, oh, that's a human body, oh, now it's not.

Chris RyanHost32:12

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:12

And the other one that I love, and we'll talk more about this scene in a moment I bet, but the siren scene is one of the best moments in the film for any number of reasons.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:22

But one of the things that I've been thinking about ever since I saw it was you just get a glimpse.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:27

There's just some figures on the rocks.

Chris RyanHost32:28

Yeah, well, it's actually got a sense of perspective 'cause y- you're rooted in Odysseus's experience.

Chris RyanHost32:33

We can talk about it, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:34

And it, and, and, and it's more powerful because we don't have to see it.

Chris RyanHost32:36

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:36

It's fine.

‘The Agency’ & Butterworth TV Empire32:37 – 45:15

Chris RyanHost32:37

One last thing-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:38

Okay

Chris RyanHost32:38

... and this dovetails with us kind of finally figuring out, when do you wanna do season two of The Agency wrap-up? Would you like to do it Monday?

Andy GreenwaldHost32:46

Hmm.

Chris RyanHost32:47

Or would you like to do it next Thursday?

Andy GreenwaldHost32:49

Have you finished the season?

Chris RyanHost32:50

I have got three episodes left.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:52

This has been incredibly hard to talk about because the momentum of the season builds really, really well.

Chris RyanHost33:01

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:01

And I li- you know, when we did our top 10s of the year so far, I think we both had it low on our list because we hadn't finished it.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:08

Um, I think it is-

Chris RyanHost33:09

We also have like a consciousness of like how it will probably go-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:12

Yes, we know a lot of the things

Chris RyanHost33:13

... because we know The, The Bureau.

Chris RyanHost33:14

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:14

But, but as the season has gone on, it has gotten stronger in its, in its, I think in its pacing, in its cumulative storytelling, and then also just like the, the, the, the creators' understanding of what they've got.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:27

Like there were a lot of moments in season one where because of the necessity of like churning this plot that it hadn't really found its legs in terms of like interoffice dynamics, or like how are we gonna play these smaller scenes that can be invented, and they are feeling themselves in this season-

Chris RyanHost33:41

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost33:41

...

Andy GreenwaldHost33:41

in a way that is like really, really engaging.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:44

We could do either day.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:44

I'm, I'm, I'm-

Chris RyanHost33:45

I, I think we should do-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:46

I've, I've crossed the halfway point.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:47

I'm, I'm rolling.

Chris RyanHost33:47

I think we should do Monday if you can.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:49

Okay.

Chris RyanHost33:50

Just because I think that would be a good podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:54

I...

Andy GreenwaldHost33:54

My goal is to do a good podcast.

Chris RyanHost33:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:57

Has, have I led on otherwise?

Chris RyanHost33:59

No.

Chris RyanHost33:59

I think we should lead with joy.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:01

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost34:01

That's what we should do in 2026.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:03

And, and I do think we need to talk about it sooner rather than later because as you're about to mention, it...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:08

I, I don't feel bullish about the future of the show, and I wish I could.

Chris RyanHost34:10

Well, it's interesting that you should say that-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:12

Yeah

Chris RyanHost34:12

... because I would like to talk to you about the Taylor Sheridan, Sheridan-ing-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:16

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost34:17

... of Jez Butterworth.

Chris RyanHost34:18

Uh, Jez Butterworth, for people who do not know, is an accomplished British playwright-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:23

Yes

Chris RyanHost34:24

... and a screenwriter.

Chris RyanHost34:26

Uh, has worked on, is huge, is, is sort of h- big, big play that he did that is, you know, totally an awards magnet was Jerusalem with Mark Rylance.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:37

Oh, his play, of his theater.

Chris RyanHost34:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost34:39

Uh, screenwi- writing-wise, I, you know, I think he's done-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:43

He's done some big stuff

Chris RyanHost34:43

... a lot of stuff, but like did he do any Bonds?

Andy GreenwaldHost34:46

Yes.

Chris RyanHost34:47

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:47

Spectre.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:48

Uh, Edge of Tomorrow is, is him.

Chris RyanHost34:50

That's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:50

Um, Black Mass.

Chris RyanHost34:53

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:53

Uh, Ford...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:54

And then he s- and then he works with Mangold a lot.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:55

He did Ford, Ford v Ferrari, and he did the, that la...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:58

I mean, we don't talk about this, but the last Indiana Jones movie.

Chris RyanHost35:02

I mean-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:02

He wrote and, and-

Chris RyanHost35:02

... of the problems with that probably-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:04

Yeah

Chris RyanHost35:04

... were not all together script based, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost35:07

He is also the writer of the Beatles cinematic event.

Chris RyanHost35:10

Oh, the four Beatles movies.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:12

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost35:12

Okay, so obviously somebody who is prolific, which helps.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:14

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:15

Because he has signed up to do another show for Paramount Plus, also from 101 Studios, which is the studio behind Sheridan's stuff.

Chris RyanHost35:24

Also, most of it was on Paramount Plus, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:26

And did we s- did we establish also that with his brother he writes MobLand-

Chris RyanHost35:28

John Henry

Andy GreenwaldHost35:28

... and The Agency.

Chris RyanHost35:29

That's what I was getting to.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:30

So he, he's now, season two of MobLand is coming imminently.

Chris RyanHost35:35

They had a trailer come out.

Chris RyanHost35:36

That's obviously been in the news 'cause of is Tom Hardy on or off this show if they do a third season.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:41

Hmm.

Chris RyanHost35:41

The Agency we're gonna be talking about on Monday.

Chris RyanHost35:43

We love to make a commitment to make The Agency.

Chris RyanHost35:47

Seems like you should say we think this will be a grower, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost35:52

Yes

Chris RyanHost35:52

... people will by the fourth season be like, "This is my favorite show," which is kind of how The Bureau worked.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:58

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost35:59

But, uh, so far no word on whether or not The Agency has been renewed for season three, which honestly is a bummer and has dampened my like maybe relentless spirit to finish in a timely manner, you know? Although if it was a week-to-week show, I think I'd be still on time.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:15

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost36:16

Now he's gonna do another show-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:17

Why not?

Chris RyanHost36:18

... called Laird.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:19

Hmm.

Chris RyanHost36:19

L-A-I-R-D.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:20

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost36:21

Uh, starring Kenneth Branagh, and it sounds an awful, awful lot like Scottish Yellowstone.

Chris RyanHost36:26

It is, uh, the logline is a proud Scottish family man standing up to an American billionaire who wants to buy up Scottish land, which I think is very funny given Paramount's sort of precarious position with the Warner Brothers deal and the D- Department of Justice that they are-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:41

They're diversifying their portfolio

Chris RyanHost36:42

... are making a, a show that kinda sounds like when Trump came and bought a bunch of golf courses.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:47

Listen Two things.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:49

One, you gotta prepare for after the midterms

Chris RyanHost36:51

We don't know for sure that the, the, the billionaire isn't the good guy in this show [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost36:55

That's my next point.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:56

My next point is, like, what if Local Hero is actually about how it's better to turn things into golf courses?

Chris RyanHost37:02

Someone who stands in the way of progress and good golf.

Chris RyanHost37:04

Uh, but this was largely, like, the thrust of Yellowstone, where you take an incredible natural environment-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:11

Chris RyanHost37:12

... and in this case, the Scottish H- Highlands, I imagine.

Chris RyanHost37:15

Uh, and you put a major star, Branagh, Costner, and you build, like, a drama around his trying to save his family and his land.

Chris RyanHost37:28

Uh, i- it's a very-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:29

Right

Chris RyanHost37:29

... interesting kind of...

Chris RyanHost37:31

I, I can't decide where I wanna start with.

Chris RyanHost37:32

First of all, it's very interesting that they are, like, m- making new Sheridans, you know? That-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:37

Without, you mean without him.

Chris RyanHost37:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:39

Yes.

Chris RyanHost37:39

And that he...

Chris RyanHost37:39

I mean, I wouldn't even be surprised if he gets a piece of 101 Studios shows, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:44

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:44

Yeah

Chris RyanHost37:44

...

Chris RyanHost37:44

I thought it was interesting that as he is going to Peacock, as he is doing the Call of Duty movie and, you know, I think Lioness is coming back, uh, in a week or two, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:54

Don't act like you don't know

Chris RyanHost37:55

... uh, yeah [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost37:57

You're like, "Well, who, who among us?"

Chris RyanHost38:00

Well, now the enemy is within.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:01

You've got an iCal-

Chris RyanHost38:02

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost38:02

... alert.

Chris RyanHost38:02

Um, it's interesting that they are looking, and, and recruiting, and fostering, and scouting, like, other people, but what I wanna know is, like, how do you write this many episodes of television?

Andy GreenwaldHost38:16

I mean, I, I, I don't know.

Chris RyanHost38:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:18

There are people who are super prolific.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:20

It's, it's almost hard to interrogate this stuff without, A, like, running afoul of, like, Writers Guild illicit shenanigans, you know, or, like, accusing people of that.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:29

But, B-

Chris RyanHost38:29

Well, it's, it's worth noting that in England-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:31

B-

Chris RyanHost38:31

... it's not uncommon for the creator of a show to also write every episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:35

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:35

I, I would also say that, like, in a world in which David E. Kelley did what he did for all of the '90s and 2000s, like-

Chris RyanHost38:41

And Sorkin, although-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:43

Sorkin used external...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:44

I mean, who among-

Chris RyanHost38:45

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost38:45

... we, we can't blame people.

Chris RyanHost38:46

He was motivated.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:47

He was motivated.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:48

He found, he found things that helped.

Chris RyanHost38:50

As the TSA found, yeah [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost38:51

As the TSA found.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:52

They found a lot of things.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:53

Um, but yes, to your other point about, like, the British model, like, until recently the British model was the creator was also, didn't really have the term showrunner, w- had the term lead writer or head writer, and a writer's room such as they existed would be the lead writer calling his or her mates who they used to do theater together-

Chris RyanHost39:15

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost39:15

...

Andy GreenwaldHost39:15

in for, like, a week, and they would sit around, and they would-

Chris RyanHost39:19

Have a sesh

Andy GreenwaldHost39:19

... have a sesh.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:21

Um, you know, get a bag out.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:23

Bag is Tesco, of, you know, some breakfast sandwiches, and, um...

Andy GreenwaldHost39:29

I think it's get a bag in, actually.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:31

Sorry, I'm looking right at you [laughs]

Chris RyanHost39:32

[laughs] Are you talking about Tesco or cocaine?

Andy GreenwaldHost39:35

Well, I was trying to do-

Chris RyanHost39:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost39:36

... trying to bridge the gap-

Chris RyanHost39:36

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost39:37

... of some of British people's greatest passions, you know? Um, and then, and then they would contribute, you know, for a week, but that all the episodes would be credited to the person who then took those ideas and consolidated them and wrote the scripts.

Chris RyanHost39:47

I see.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:48

Um, the American model is becoming more prevalent there, especially as more American productions are based there.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:53

But, um, anyway, I'm not, I don't know why I'm trying to, like, explain the Butterworths.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:57

I mean, uh, they also, they're, they're the brotherworths-

Chris RyanHost40:00

Yeah, they, they, they-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:00

... and maybe they just work super well together

Chris RyanHost40:01

...

Chris RyanHost40:01

they might just be like, "We don't look at Twitter.

Chris RyanHost40:03

We just write," you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost40:04

That's so sick [laughs]

Chris RyanHost40:06

Twitter's been really good for, like, five weeks [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost40:07

There's been a lot of good jokes on there.

Chris RyanHost40:09

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost40:09

Um, anyway-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:11

But, but, but the other, I think the other piece of it that I find interesting is, um, well, one, I'm just, can Branagh do the accent? I mean, I'm not putting anything past him.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:18

He is Northern Irish by birth.

Chris RyanHost40:18

I mean, he's been playing Roman Abramovich for, like, 12 years it feels like-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:21

Totally

Chris RyanHost40:21

...

Chris RyanHost40:21

so I'll be curious to see how he adjusts to Scottish, but I think he's, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:24

I, I think he's probably up to it

Chris RyanHost40:25

... very good.

Chris RyanHost40:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:26

But the other thing, though, is I do think it's interesting to call it, you can call it Sheridan-ning or Taylor-ing, but Paramount, the powers that be at Paramount clearly believe that their m- that this model is expandable beyond Taylor's specific purview, but that delivering a 10-episode chunk of something kind of-

Chris RyanHost40:48

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost40:48

... beautiful and soap operatic works for their audience, that that is something that they can understand as a n- brand of, like, part of the service's brand as opposed to the brand of one-

Chris RyanHost40:59

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost41:00

... filmmaker.

Chris RyanHost41:01

Um, do you think adding a third show to his portfolio bodes well or poorly for The Agency's future? The argument for well would be they are making a massive commitment to Jez Butterworth.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:13

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost41:13

When Taylor Sheridan started, he did the first season of Yellowstone, I think it was '18.

Chris RyanHost41:17

Um, by '21 he was doing 1883 and Mayor of Kingstown.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:23

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost41:23

'22 was N- 1923, Tulsa King, which I think he was on and off of as, uh, he was with Lawman: Bass Reeves, and then he had another push of, like, Lioness and Landman.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:37

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost41:37

And then, then '26 he did the Madison and Dutton Ranch.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:40

Right.

Chris RyanHost41:40

And while all this is happening, he is heavily involved with or fully writing-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:45

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost41:46

... other seasons of the aforementioned shows.

Chris RyanHost41:48

Butterworth in the last couple of years, Agency premieres in the 20- in, uh, 2024 with 10 episodes of that.

Chris RyanHost41:57

The following year, MobLand goes up, 10 episodes of that.

Chris RyanHost41:59

I believe he wrote all of those with his brother.

Chris RyanHost42:02

And now this year, another 10 episodes of The Agency, I think.

Chris RyanHost42:05

M- MobLand, I think, is coming back this year.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:07

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost42:07

So that would be 20 episodes of TV that he has produced this, this year.

Chris RyanHost42:11

Do you think-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:12

Yeah

Chris RyanHost42:13

... there's a sign that this is like The Agency didn't work, but we believe in you, or do you think it's like-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:17

I-

Chris RyanHost42:17

... "Hey, we're, we're just in your business"?

Andy GreenwaldHost42:19

I think they're in his business, and I think there's nothing in his CV that suggests that he and his brother couldn't do a third season of The Agency if it got greenlit.

Chris RyanHost42:27

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:27

Um, particularly because it is a different job than these others.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:31

Um, it is a lot more than, like, scenography, but they do have-

Chris RyanHost42:34

It's adaptation

Andy GreenwaldHost42:34

...

Andy GreenwaldHost42:34

the broad outlines of plot, so they can sit down and being like, "Here's what we have to accomplish, and here's how we..." So the job becomes dialogue, specificity, and making it in the voices of their, you know, slightly evolving characters.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:46

Um, I'm, I'm very concerned [laughs] about the future of The Agency, but in ways that are incredibly opaque and frustrating and indicative of what TV is these days.

Chris RyanHost42:55

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost42:55

YeahIt's, I, I still cannot fathom how expensive this show is to make and produce.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:02

Um, the talent on screen, the location shooting on screen a- and across multiple countries, the producers involved, all the people getting paid for every episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:12

That's kind of an under-reported thing or m- not as well understood aspect of where the money goes-

Chris RyanHost43:16

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost43:16

...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:16

when you see, you think that, oh, this show must have had its budget slashed.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:20

Not necessarily.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:21

Um, if there are upwards of eight executive producers and one of them is named George Clooney, like everybody's getting a taste of-

Chris RyanHost43:26

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost43:26

... everything that g- get gets made.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:28

Um, and then it's a question of like, um, return on investment as well, and regime because this show survived somehow out of, you know...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:39

Th- this was gonna be a Showtime original, and now it's, you know, a binge drop on a random weekend on Paramount+.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:46

So it's rare for shows to thrive across, um, administrations, let's say.

Chris RyanHost43:51

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:52

And, and then I f- I think the fact that I...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:54

Clearly from our mentions, people are finding the show and loving it, but I do...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:59

I don't know if it has inspired what I would call a hot fandom.

Chris RyanHost44:01

I don't know.

Chris RyanHost44:02

I don't-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:02

It's a chilly-

Chris RyanHost44:03

I think Paramount+ is also the other streaming service, it, for a lot of people who listen to us.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:08

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost44:08

Is like, you know, the, there are some who are like, "I, you know, enjoy the Taylor Sheridan content," or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:13

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost44:13

There's a lot of people like, "I don't have Paramount and I, I, I don't because I'm not interested in Taylor."

Andy GreenwaldHost44:18

Or-

Chris RyanHost44:18

And that seems to be the main thrust

Andy GreenwaldHost44:20

... or UFC or whatever it is.

Chris RyanHost44:21

Or Elsbeth or whatever else they've got on it.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:23

Yeah, the CBS stuff.

Chris RyanHost44:24

So I don't know.

Chris RyanHost44:24

I, uh, I think he can make it.

Chris RyanHost44:29

It, you know, The Agency went up June 21st.

Chris RyanHost44:31

They released all 10 episodes.

Chris RyanHost44:34

You could make the argument that they are waiting 10 weeks to announce that.

Chris RyanHost44:38

There, there-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:38

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost44:38

... is some idea of like, you know, people watching it in a week-to-week format or once a week, and we're waiting to get the cumulative number back.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:47

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:47

My guess would be that there has been a lot of action behind the scenes trying to salvage a future for the show.

Chris RyanHost44:54

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:54

And whether that means making the case for doing a third season in a different way, or budgetarily different, or if it means, um, the studio's actively shopping it to seeing if it would fit better with a different network.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:06

I think all of that is possible and all of that is in play.

Chris RyanHost45:08

It doesn't seem like...

Chris RyanHost45:09

How often do we talk about that versus how often it happens?

Andy GreenwaldHost45:12

It happens very rarely.

Chris RyanHost45:13

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost45:13

It's very complicated.

Chris RyanHost45:14

We'll do Agency on Monday.

Pivot to Feature-Film Talk45:16 – 45:17

Andy GreenwaldHost45:16

Okay.

Chris RyanHost45:16

I'm happy to do it.

Christopher Nolan’s ‘The Odyssey’ – Full Review & Nolan Rankings45:18 – 1:21:05

Chris RyanHost45:18

Let's talk about The Odyssey.

Chris RyanHost45:19

Now, uh, Andy has already mentioned a couple of, of, of his favorite scenes.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:23

Key scenes.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:23

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost45:24

Uh, it goes without saying that this is spoilers for The Odyssey.

Chris RyanHost45:27

Seems like many of you have seen it already.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:29

Seems like it's doing fairly well.

Chris RyanHost45:30

Just straw poll.

Chris RyanHost45:31

Anybody...

Chris RyanHost45:31

How, who else in the room has seen it? Kai? Sarah? Not Kaya.

Chris RyanHost45:35

I'm trying to see it in IMAX, okay? It's a hot ticket.

Chris RyanHost45:38

It is a hot ticket.

Chris RyanHost45:38

I have tickets to go see it next Friday.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:41

I, I have to say, that was cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:43

Like, that I, I'm not really [laughs] you know, I'm not really a format snob, but I was like, I, if, if given the opportunity and living in a city that I believe has more IMAX projectors than, than most-

Chris RyanHost45:55

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost45:55

... let's say, if not all, um, I very, as you learned too casually, said, "I'm just gonna go see it tomorrow on the, a weekday morning."

Chris RyanHost46:03

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:03

And like these 7:00 AM screenings were sold out.

Chris RyanHost46:06

Yes.

Chris RyanHost46:06

It's, it's a tough ticket to get.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:08

That's cool.

Chris RyanHost46:08

Uh, I went, so I went once at City Walk, which is the IMAX 70, and I saw it once on just a r- quote, unquote, "regular IMAX." And, um, it's weird.

Chris RyanHost46:19

I think I preferred the second screening possibly because a lot of...

Chris RyanHost46:25

I knew where I wanted to lean in and hear a line-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:28

Yeah

Chris RyanHost46:28

... of dialogue that I may have missed.

Chris RyanHost46:29

Uh, you know, there's, there's a scene w- uh, early on when Penelope and Odysseus are in bed-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:36

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost46:36

... and talking about like he's gonna have to leave.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:38

Yes.

Chris RyanHost46:38

And she's just like, "What if we l- like ran away and what would happen?" And-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:42

Yeah

Chris RyanHost46:42

...

Chris RyanHost46:42

it is crucial to understanding a bunch of, you know, the state of their marriage, the state of-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:49

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost46:49

...

Chris RyanHost46:49

Ithaca, Agamemnon saying, "This is about Helen of Troy," but it's in fact-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:54

It's about trade routes

Chris RyanHost46:55

... it's about trade routes.

Chris RyanHost46:56

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost46:56

So there's a lot of stuff that I picked up dialogue-wise-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:00

Right

Chris RyanHost47:00

...

Chris RyanHost47:00

the second time around.

Chris RyanHost47:01

The screen was also, maybe it's a, it's a totally a personal preference thing.

Chris RyanHost47:06

I like to see like the whole screen kind of in my static line of view-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:12

Right

Chris RyanHost47:12

... rather than scanning up and down the way you do at City Walk 70.

Chris RyanHost47:17

Um, I even had that problem sometimes w- w- in the Cinerama Dome, which is blessedly reopening-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:22

Yeah

Chris RyanHost47:22

... um, here in Los Angeles, where you would be kinda pan and scanning yourself-

Andy GreenwaldHost47:26

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost47:26

... across, uh, the horizontal line.

Chris RyanHost47:29

I don't know why we're getting into aspect ratios.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:31

I'm excited.

Chris RyanHost47:32

Uh, I was very excited for you to see this movie.

Chris RyanHost47:35

Uh, how did, uh, what did you think?

Andy GreenwaldHost47:37

Can we talk aspect ratio? No, I mean, I did, I don't know enough to know the difference, and I also don't, didn't know enough that there are hotspots for sound or not sound, especially like if you're not in a theater personally curated by the Nolan family trust.

Chris RyanHost47:49

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:50

So w- w- we were kind of like upper left, 'cause those are the seats that were left.

Chris RyanHost47:54

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:54

And so we were seated directly underneath-

Chris RyanHost47:56

That'll blow your ears out

Andy GreenwaldHost47:57

...

Andy GreenwaldHost47:57

the speaker.

Chris RyanHost47:58

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:58

Which was very worrisome when you're watching trailers and also like, you know, um-

Chris RyanHost48:05

Ju-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:05

...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:05

Juicy Fruit commercials that are not exactly like-

Chris RyanHost48:07

Yeah [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost48:07

... delicately...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:08

And then when the movie starts, it was cool because I was like, wow, they really did a lot of ADR of dudes, you know, bathing in the background of this scene.

Chris RyanHost48:15

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost48:15

Or like, wow, the temple of Athena is a, is a busy place.

Chris RyanHost48:18

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:18

So there was a lot of that, but it was clearer than I had expected.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:22

But again, these theaters, you could have the right format, but there was still like the line of the seats in front of me was doing what people are saying the 35 millimeter print does, so I was losing the bottom of, of-

Chris RyanHost48:34

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost48:35

... of the frame.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:36

Um, anyway, it was...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:39

I, I, I think it's tough to articulate, uh, any strong opinion about Nolan because he is an industry unto himself, and anything that he does at this point, particularly a movie like this, is worthy of ... consideration.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:54

Like, it was such a great experience to go with my daughter, who went for three reasons.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:58

None of them were IMAX or spending the day with me.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:02

They were named Tom Holland, Zendaya, and Greek mythology-

Chris RyanHost49:05

Oh, I thought maybe-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:06

Of which she's passionate about all three

Chris RyanHost49:07

...

Chris RyanHost49:07

I thought maybe R Pat's got...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:08

She likes, she likes him, but she's not, like, a, a, a Twihard, you know?

Chris RyanHost49:13

Uh-huh.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:13

She doesn't really have the...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:14

She likes him in, in Good Time mostly.

Chris RyanHost49:16

[laughs] Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:16

That's, that's like her-

Chris RyanHost49:18

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost49:18

... way in.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:19

Um, so it was really great to have the experience and then have the, like, the long drive home-

Chris RyanHost49:26

To talk about it

Andy GreenwaldHost49:27

... 'cause we do not see it nearby [laughs]

Chris RyanHost49:28

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost49:28

... uh, to talk about it, and then to keep talking about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:31

Like, how great an experience is that?

Chris RyanHost49:33

This is-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:33

Not just for dads and daughters, but for those of us alive these days who can go share something with people.

Chris RyanHost49:38

I think is the gifts that he gives-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:40

Yeah

Chris RyanHost49:40

... is that his films, whether they are espionage puzzle boxes like Tenet-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:47

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost49:47

... or, uh, you know, photorealistic war movies like Dunkirk-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:51

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost49:51

... or space movies or whatever they are, you wind up just, like, chewing on them for weeks afterwards and wanting to re-see the, to see them again and revisit them immediately because you're like, "Did I miss something here?" And-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:05

Yeah

Chris RyanHost50:05

...

Chris RyanHost50:05

I wonder how the second act f- feels once I know where it's going.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:09

I-

Chris RyanHost50:09

And there's a lot of, like...

Chris RyanHost50:11

I think when, you know, sometimes with, with his movies, the first run-through-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:15

Yeah

Chris RyanHost50:16

... is just almost like a purely physical experience or a visceral experience where you're like-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:20

Can be

Chris RyanHost50:20

... "Oh, my God, like, my hearing is shot."

Andy GreenwaldHost50:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost50:22

Like, I feel like I've been on these mountains and been on these boats and, like, been thrown against the waves.

Chris RyanHost50:28

And now that I can see it, I'm watching, like, oh, this is the first time Odysseus acted like a prick here in this, like, little scene right here.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:35

Right.

Chris RyanHost50:35

You know what I mean? And, you know, he o- he obviously had this arrogance.

Chris RyanHost50:39

Or what makes Penelope say that at this moment?

Andy GreenwaldHost50:42

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost50:42

And like, you know, obviously then I think, you know, some of the greater themes and the more contemporary themes that Nolan's playing with start to emerge.

Chris RyanHost50:50

Did you, did you feel like you were able to, uh, like discern, like, how you liked the movie-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:57

Yeah, I-

Chris RyanHost50:57

... beyond, like, that was a hell of an experience?

Andy GreenwaldHost50:59

Well, I think I am not as big of a Nolan-head as all other men in their 40s who-

Chris RyanHost51:06

Uh, there's, there's a-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:07

... have microphones

Chris RyanHost51:07

...

Chris RyanHost51:07

I think there...

Chris RyanHost51:07

Uh, you'd be surprised.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:08

I-

Chris RyanHost51:08

And I also think that there's, like, there are Nolan guys who are like, "I'm a Dark Knight guy."

Andy GreenwaldHost51:12

Sure.

Chris RyanHost51:12

There are Nolan guys who are like, "I like Memento and Prestige." There are Nolan guys who are like, "The last three movies are his best." You know?

Andy GreenwaldHost51:18

I mean, I, I, I think he is a fascinating filmmaker.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:22

I find him so...

Andy GreenwaldHost51:23

I mean, he, he doesn't have a funny bone in his body, and I've...

Andy GreenwaldHost51:28

I- and him talking about how he really likes MacGruber reminds me of Steve Carell talking about women's breasts in 40-Year-Old Virgin.

Chris RyanHost51:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost51:34

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost51:34

Um, I find his movies, they leave me very cold generally.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:38

Um, so I did not...

Andy GreenwaldHost51:40

I enjoy the spectacle.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:41

I do not feel particularly transported by them, except in some occasions.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:46

Um-

Chris RyanHost51:46

So you, like, ne- never forget you're watching a movie is what you're say-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:49

Yeah

Chris RyanHost51:49

... like, you're not like-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:50

No, I found-

Chris RyanHost51:51

... "I've, I've lost my s- my sort of-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:52

Totally

Chris RyanHost51:52

... inner brain here."

Andy GreenwaldHost51:53

Um, I found Oppenheimer really, really compelling because of all of his movies about, uh, lost men who have to work all day and only feel slightly bad about it.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:04

The, it, it is about someone who loses himself in technicality and science, for lack of a better word, and struggles over that being his version of soul.

Chris RyanHost52:16

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:16

And that, I think, is a very autobiographical thing as opposed to, like, in a different way than Interstellar, which is just about how, like, you know, it is hard to, to, to work on location sometimes.

Chris RyanHost52:25

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost52:25

But that's...

Andy GreenwaldHost52:27

But, but I, but I, but I found that really interesting and compelling in Oppenheimer.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:31

And also, one of the ways that I w- am eager to continue the conversation is to lower the temperature from, and you don't do this, but, like, just because he made a movie doesn't mean it's the best movie ever made or the best movie he's ever made.

Chris RyanHost52:42

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:42

You know? So I, I think that when you get to think about all these movies in conversation with each other and where his muse is taking him and where his relationship with commerce and the town is taking him is very interesting.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:53

All that to say, like, I thought that at its heart, this movie was so wildly audacious because it's fucking nuts to be like, "I'm gonna do the epic of ancient Greek battle poetry-

Chris RyanHost53:05

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost53:05

... and make it about, um, modern life," in the way that he did.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:10

Um, and also it's a swords and sandals epic, which is incredibly out of fashion and has a long history on the screen and is often campy, right? Or, or, or leans in other directions than a p- than a, a typical Nolan-

Chris RyanHost53:23

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost53:24

... uh, movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:26

Th- that said, I also thought some of this was ludicrous-

Chris RyanHost53:28

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost53:28

...

Andy GreenwaldHost53:28

in good ways.

Chris RyanHost53:29

I kinda wanna know what you thought was ludicrous.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:31

Um, I mean, there were just moments when I was watching these actors, some of whom I thought were giving it their game best but were wildly miscast, speaking like they're in the fucking Ten Commandments.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:43

But then, you know, the music's like, "Brr," and it's about, like, how we should feel things.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:47

And I'm like, "That's a horse, dog.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:50

Like, that's a big wooden horse." Like, I know you could talk about how you were in there bleeding and shitting on each other-

Chris RyanHost53:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost53:54

...

Andy GreenwaldHost53:54

but, like, it's absurd on some level.

Chris RyanHost53:57

What do you mean? That they-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:58

Well, no, I mean, just, like, think about what we're talking about.

Chris RyanHost54:00

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:00

Or, like, how I, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost54:02

Like, the movie Pattinson was in was my favorite movie, I would say, because he...

Andy GreenwaldHost54:08

I mean, you saw this.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:08

Like, y- y- you saw it, and he's talked about it, but also you see it on screen that his, his, uh, north star for the part was James Woods in Casino.

Chris RyanHost54:18

Yes.

Chris RyanHost54:19

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost54:19

Which is such a great pull and exactly right, and fun, and funny, and more alive in some ways than some of the other characters.

Chris RyanHost54:27

He's also, and Pattinson could be very knowingly full of shit in interviews, but he-

Andy GreenwaldHost54:32

Oh, sure

Chris RyanHost54:32

... also made a very compelling case for why, uh, is it Antinous who, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost54:36

Yeah

Chris RyanHost54:36

... he's like, "She should've chosen me.

Chris RyanHost54:38

She choo- she'd have chose me." Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost54:39

Yeah

Chris RyanHost54:39

...

Chris RyanHost54:40

I, I, like, he was like-

Andy GreenwaldHost54:40

He had a lot to offer

Chris RyanHost54:41

... yeah, he was like, "I was making the case," and he was like, I don't think he had a hard time believing.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:45

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost54:45

He's a sniveling dickweed in the movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost54:47

But he's a fantastic villain.

Chris RyanHost54:50

And also, I love- There's so much maintenance going on for, like, people, like, who will be like, "I ca- I can't por- portray this kind of character."

Andy GreenwaldHost55:00

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost55:00

"I have to ma- make sure, like, the, the, the ride is always-"

Andy GreenwaldHost55:03

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost55:03

... going uphill or whatever.

Chris RyanHost55:05

And Pattinson and possibly Chalamet are my favorite dudes when it comes to just, like, "I'll, I'll play a piece of shit."

Andy GreenwaldHost55:11

Yes.

Chris RyanHost55:11

And Batman, you know what I mean?

Andy GreenwaldHost55:12

Yes.

Chris RyanHost55:12

Like, I don't, I don't need to-

Andy GreenwaldHost55:14

A- and the movie needed some of that, I think, in some of the other places as well.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:18

Um, I thought the, the, the intention-

Chris RyanHost55:23

You didn't like the idiom that it was spoken in or, like, maybe the accents, the, the fact that they-

Andy GreenwaldHost55:27

No, I-

Chris RyanHost55:27

... chose everybody to sort of, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost55:28

It's not that I didn't like it.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:29

I was like, well, because the b- the, the, the macro point I wanna make is you can't do this without making some pretty definitive fucking choices, and I like that he made those choices.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:39

I didn't l- personally respond to or vibe with some of the choices.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:42

Like, I, I, I think I'm con- I'm continuing to be kinda struck by how drab the movie is, like, in terms of the colors and the palette and what it looks like.

Chris RyanHost55:50

Yeah, it doesn't-

Andy GreenwaldHost55:50

But-

Chris RyanHost55:50

... actually feel super Mediterranean.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:52

But there was, there's a choice behind that and what he's doing, and I'm like, I find that interesting, so I wanna, like, dig deeper and talk about it.

Chris RyanHost55:58

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:59

But I didn't, like, I wasn't transported by that.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:02

Um, you know, the, the, the scenes, the scenes with the suitors just felt like one, like, micrometer away from being super campy and silly, and Pattinson was yanking it in one direction.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:14

But, you know, the, the, the, the heaviness of the movie and of the, of the, uh, the journey was pulling it in the other direction, so it seemed a little bit in conflict with itself.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:23

But, like, you know, I know Emily Wilson here.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:26

Like, the, The Odyssey itself, like all Greek myth, is, like, about an ancient world in which gods were deeply flawed human actors who were fucking things up all the time, and that's interesting, too, and he intentionally didn't do that.

Chris RyanHost56:40

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:40

Which is a absolutely ...

Andy GreenwaldHost56:42

I mean, he, he doesn't need me to say this, but I find that a really interesting and compelling choice.

Chris RyanHost56:46

Very bold choice.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:47

It ...

Andy GreenwaldHost56:47

A- and so the-

Chris RyanHost56:48

And I honestly wonder [laughs] whether or not it speaks to, whether you wanna call it spiritual bankruptcy-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:53

Yeah

Chris RyanHost56:53

... or, like, pragmatism on the part of contemporary audiences, that they would be, like, probably pushing up against it if Zeus is around there, like, flipping boats over.

Chris RyanHost57:02

You know what I mean? Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:02

Well, or, or Thor.

Chris RyanHost57:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:03

I mean, I know it's a different mythology.

Chris RyanHost57:04

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:04

But the i- we were used to seeing gods on screen now, so it was more interesting not to, and that to make his ultimate-

Chris RyanHost57:10

But they had to make Thor more like Tony Stark-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:13

Yes

Chris RyanHost57:13

... for him to be a hugely popular character.

Chris RyanHost57:15

When he was doing, like, dark worlds, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:18

Yes

Chris RyanHost57:18

...

Chris RyanHost57:18

Odin shit-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:19

But-

Chris RyanHost57:19

... people were like, "Eh."

Andy GreenwaldHost57:20

But Hermes is a James Gunn character, you know? Like, like these-

Chris RyanHost57:24

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost57:24

...

Andy GreenwaldHost57:24

these dudes ...

Andy GreenwaldHost57:25

But truly.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:27

Like, the first thing Hermes did when he was born was crawl out of a cave, fuck around with Apollo's cows, which is relevant to this conversation-

Chris RyanHost57:35

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost57:35

... kill one, take its sinews, and make the first lyre, and just started playing music.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:39

And Apollo was like, "What the fuck's up with this baby?"

Chris RyanHost57:41

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost57:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost57:41

"Why did this baby invent music and kill my cows?" Like-

Chris RyanHost57:44

Was there no music before that?

Andy GreenwaldHost57:46

Well, uh, b- not, not, like, rocking, you know-

Chris RyanHost57:49

[laughs] Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost57:49

... fucking Chris Pratt with his Walkman kinda music.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:51

I'm trying to, like, square the circle here.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:53

But, uh, the other thing that he is so uniquely good at, that we almost take it for granted, is making cleverness and making the three-act structure, even with, like, asynchronous time, like, making it reveal the reason for the story-

Chris RyanHost58:08

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost58:08

... late in the game.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:08

You know?

Chris RyanHost58:09

It's the, it's the-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:09

It's, it's, it's the-

Chris RyanHost58:09

... prestige idea.

Chris RyanHost58:10

Like, it's the basically-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:11

It's the trick

Chris RyanHost58:12

...

Chris RyanHost58:12

the late period, and this is the secret, and this is the reason.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:16

And it's that, and what did Einstein say to him in Oppenheimer?

Chris RyanHost58:18

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:18

Where it ...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:19

And, and in this movie, the idea that the people from the sea were them all along, that they broke the world, that he's made this movie because it's about the end of one era into another, and then the different ways in which he backed it up, like, with the completely anachronistic metal armor on the giants.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:34

Um, you know-

Chris RyanHost58:35

Wow

Andy GreenwaldHost58:35

... being like, well, like, he saw the future.

Chris RyanHost58:37

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:38

And in the future, the world is literally changing.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:39

The trees are going around them and stuff.

Chris RyanHost58:41

Right.

Chris RyanHost58:41

Bronze to-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:42

To, to, to, to iron metal.

Chris RyanHost58:43

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:43

And, like, I love that.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:45

I love the thinking behind that, but I think that ...

Andy GreenwaldHost58:48

I, I'm not trying to fight what the movie is.

Chris RyanHost58:50

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:50

But I think that my, my relationship with this movie in particular comes up against that, which is I love the thinking.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:57

And then there were moments, though, of absolute transcendence, like, um, hiring the great clown Bill Irwin to be the Cyclops, and so to, to, to physicalize him, and then to linger not just on his monstrosity but on his humanity and have him weeping in pain.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:16

Like, honestly, that dude's life was pretty good.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:19

He's just making cheese.

Chris RyanHost59:20

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost59:21

And apparently pretty good cheese.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:23

You know, in a different world, he just brings it to the market.

Chris RyanHost59:25

He can watch the agency at the pace he pleases.

Chris RyanHost59:27

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost59:27

Yeah, and every Saturday he, he goes to the green market in Montrose or whatever and, like, hawks his wares and-

Chris RyanHost59:32

Uh-huh

Andy GreenwaldHost59:32

... you know, next to the Dubai chocolate lady, and, like, then he comes home with his sheep.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:36

Rolls the rock back.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:38

It's fine.

Chris RyanHost59:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:39

Um-

Chris RyanHost59:39

Eats two guys, falls asleep.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:40

Well, he doesn't have-

Chris RyanHost59:42

I love, I love that the soldiers are Ambien to him.

Chris RyanHost59:44

[laughs] Like, as soon as he has two, he's like poof.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:46

Instant sleep.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:47

It's like me turning on a movie after 9:00 PM.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:50

Just a wrap.

Chris RyanHost59:50

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:51

Um, but, like, this is the thing about something that is, like, worthwhile art, honestly, is that, like, look how exci- I feel very excited talking about it even though I didn't love it.

Chris RyanHost1:00:01

Do you historically like movies of this scale? I remember seeing Lawrence of Arabia with you in 70 millimeter-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:06

Loved it

Chris RyanHost1:00:06

... a couple years ago, and it was y- you, you had, like, a religious experience.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:09

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:00:09

But that also has different qualities than I think some ...

Chris RyanHost1:00:13

I think the closest movie, I would argue, is, is to, to Lawrence is more like Dunkirk.

Chris RyanHost1:00:20

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:21

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:21

Well, I think Dunkirk, I mean, this is the, I'm res- this is not my argument, but I saw someone make the, the argument that Dunkirk is in many ways his most successful movie because it comes preloaded with emotion and, and context.

Chris RyanHost1:00:31

Well, Dunkirk is my favorite movie of his.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:00:33

Uh, I, I think my ...

Chris RyanHost1:00:36

I, I think the structure and his structural trickery-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:39

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:00:39

... serves the movie because in Dunkirk everything he's doing is more or less observation.

Chris RyanHost1:00:46

There's incredible set pieces, obviously.

Chris RyanHost1:00:47

There are things that are happening that are absolutely extraordinary.

Chris RyanHost1:00:52

You know, you essentially feel like a, a fighter pilot-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:55

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:00:55

...

Chris RyanHost1:00:55

while watching Dunkirk.

Chris RyanHost1:00:56

But y- you are never brought Inside the characters, you know what I mean? Like, except for Rylance-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:03

Well-

Chris RyanHost1:01:03

... and like, you know, they, they are people, but like they have...

Chris RyanHost1:01:05

There isn't a star of Dunkirk-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:07

No, because you-

Chris RyanHost1:01:07

You know what I mean? Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:07

You don't have to-

Chris RyanHost1:01:08

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:08

... because you understand the ticking clock means lives that existed in history, and World War II, and the specter of Nazism, and all that, and you, you arrive with that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:17

Whereas the challenge of these oth- of the more original movies, and I don't mean th- say this lightly, is the movie has to do the, the work not just of resolving the story or making you feel the tension at the end, it has to introduce you to Dom Cobb and why it's important that he does X-

Chris RyanHost1:01:31

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:31

... or Y or Z thing first, and become invested in him and his story.

Chris RyanHost1:01:34

So you mentioned that your daughter was very into Greek mythology, and I take it-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:37

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:01:37

... by the s- casual references to Hermes' lyre that you are, too.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:42

D'Aulaire's Book of Greek Myths is probably the most important book of my life-

Chris RyanHost1:01:46

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:46

... that I gave to my children.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:47

And yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:01:47

So were you a little annoyed that it wasn't more Greek?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:51

No.

Chris RyanHost1:01:52

Not in like the, like do you gotta cast like a Greek guy, I mean-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:54

First of all, my Instagram reels are full of-

Chris RyanHost1:01:56

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:56

... contemporary Greece content and island hopping.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:59

James Dimitri is a great guy.

Chris RyanHost1:02:01

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:01

You know what I mean? Like, it looks lovely.

Chris RyanHost1:02:02

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:02

I was...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:03

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:03

I, I don't care about that in terms of like authenticity or whatever.

Chris RyanHost1:02:07

Do you wish it was more magical and mythological?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:09

No, I, I, I didn't f- no, I didn't feel that at all.

Chris RyanHost1:02:12

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:12

In fact, I really, really liked also th- one of the other like card pulls in the, in the end, which is that yes, Zendaya is Athena, but really what he's seeing is-

Chris RyanHost1:02:21

Is his crimes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:21

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:21

the priestess-

Chris RyanHost1:02:22

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:22

... and the crimes, and the way that they...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:25

A- and, and the idea of Zeus' law being like you don't know who is a god or who isn't.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:30

Um, I thought that was very elegantly done.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:32

No one can do that, what he's doing.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:34

I mean, i- in terms of taking the most complicated ideas, themes, uh, narrative devices imaginable and making them feel...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:43

I mean, his movies are effortful, but it does not seem overly complicated, honestly.

Chris RyanHost1:02:49

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:49

It communicates.

Chris RyanHost1:02:50

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:50

I think and that's one of the reasons why in addition to the spectacle and the stars that everyone's going to see the movie because I don't think people are leaving, casuals are leaving this movie being confused by things, you know?

Chris RyanHost1:03:01

I think peo- people are going because every couple of years that something like this comes along and it...

Chris RyanHost1:03:05

You know, I remember going backwards to Jurassic Park in my life at least, you know, and perhaps in the '80s with Spielberg movies.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:03:11

But Jurassic was the first time that I was conscious of the fact that like...

Chris RyanHost1:03:14

That and, and Batman, where it was like, "No, we're all going."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:18

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:03:18

Like the v- you know? And-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:19

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:03:20

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:20

it doesn't even matter if you can't remember the name of Triceratops or you don't know anything about Joker.

Chris RyanHost1:03:26

Like, this, this seems to have crossed over into a I go to the movies twice a year, but this is gonna be one of them kind of a thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:33

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:03:33

I think also you mentioned the stars and you mentioned, um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:37

Yeah, I wanna talk about them

Chris RyanHost1:03:37

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:38

the, I think, really wonderful promotional effort that's been made by these people because I think despite how hard it is now with like they're like, "Make a pizza, and hold a puppy, and take a lie detector test" and all-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:50

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:03:50

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:50

the stuff that like I think is the necessary for keeping the apparatus going of, of social media based interview shows or whatever.

Chris RyanHost1:04:01

They are always foregrounding the craft of filmmaking, the importance of-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:05

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:04:05

... how Nolan made the movie.

Chris RyanHost1:04:07

They are telling like the same anecdotes over and over again with the same amount of gusto, and you can tell it had a profound effect on every one of them.

Chris RyanHost1:04:16

Now, if there's somebody-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:16

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:04:16

...

Chris RyanHost1:04:17

there who's just like, "This one sucked," you know, like, I'd love to hear it.

Chris RyanHost1:04:19

But all of the people involved in this movie seemed to be like, "It was really special that I know that this movie's gonna last for 50 years"-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:26

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:04:26

... 100 years, and people are gonna be watching it, and they're gonna go back and be like, 'That was fucking incredible.'" And I think it had a huge thing to do with it.

Chris RyanHost1:04:33

That being said, I was curious about some of your takes on some of the performances in the film.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:37

I think, I think there's a wild disparity, and I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:40

And again, like one of the things that's been fun about this era of star directors is that the, the company, you know, all great directors have the people they like to work with.

Chris RyanHost1:04:52

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:52

Some, some more pronounced than others, but like seeing that go so super mainstream with like we...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:58

And, and also it's a, it's a winnowing of what actors really work because the overlap between all the big movies of this year is quite striking.

Chris RyanHost1:05:04

I mean, it's Pattinson's in five movies, Zendaya's in, in four m-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:08

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:05:08

... four or five movies.

Chris RyanHost1:05:08

Like, it's, it's crazy.

Chris RyanHost1:05:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:10

But I, I like his allegiance to actors.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:13

I do think that actors love working with him, so I'm not criticizing him again.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:17

But there is sometimes I see people...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:21

One thing you never see in a, uh, like a p- a PTA movie or a Wes Anderson movie is you don't see people caught out.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:29

You know? He casts people 'cause he sees something in them or he knows them so well, and he puts them into positions to like surprise us and see-

Chris RyanHost1:05:35

You think Nolan is like, "Those guys are Nolan's different"?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:36

I don't think he's like that-

Chris RyanHost1:05:37

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:37

... because I think his...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:39

The star often is the storytelling device, and the camera, and the, and the shot and everything.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:44

And so I think there were some actors who got pantsed in this movie in ways that I didn't, that just I thought was a bummer.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:50

I think, I think Tom Holland is re- really in way over his head, and I find him to be an absolutely charismatic and delightful performer, and it was rough.

Chris RyanHost1:06:00

So second time around with him-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:02

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:06:03

... was drastically improved.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:05

Really?

Chris RyanHost1:06:05

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:06:06

First of all, you're prepared for the accent and you're prepared for the manner.

Chris RyanHost1:06:09

So you're not like, "Did this, did this dude get like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:11

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:06:12

... like shook or whatever?" Like, it's...

Chris RyanHost1:06:14

Also, I find it, I found that his performance was very consistent with the truth of his character-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:21

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:06:22

... which is like pretending that he's ready for something that he is completely unprepared for.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:25

True.

Chris RyanHost1:06:26

Now, is that a convenient explanation for maybe a performance that doesn't like have like a ton of emotional resonance? Perhaps.

Chris RyanHost1:06:33

He doesn't really get a moment like being strapped to the mast, you know? He doesn't get a moment-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:37

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:06:38

... um, and he's often paired with people who are not only more seasoned performers, but older characters.

Chris RyanHost1:06:45

So Penelope's experiences and her pain-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:49

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:06:49

... are a little bit more earned than Telemachus who's like, "Yeah, I think I'm ready.

Chris RyanHost1:06:55

You think I'm ready?" And she's like, "You're not fucking ready." I mean, that's the point.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:58

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:06:58

So I, I, I think that he is- Not done a lot of favors because he's gotta go up against Anne Hathaway, then Bernthal-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:06

And then, and Pattinson

Chris RyanHost1:07:07

... and then Pattinson-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:08

And then, and then be like-

Chris RyanHost1:07:09

And then Odysseus comes back.

Chris RyanHost1:07:11

But yes, like I, I understand that it's not everybody's cup of, of tea.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:15

I, I mean, there were two things that made me laugh out loud in the movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:18

One was, uh, what happens to Corey Hawkins.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:21

Uh, we don't need to spoil that for people who...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:23

But it like, that, that had to be intentionally funny.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:25

But the other one was when, when Odysseus and Penelope are like, "Okay, we're leaving.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:30

Like, make sure to like, you know, don't leave the stove on, son." And he's dressed up.

Chris RyanHost1:07:34

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:34

You know? Like, yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:36

And I was like, "This is not gonna go well for Ithaca." Um-

Chris RyanHost1:07:39

Does it go well for Ithaca? I actually don't know the sequel.

Chris RyanHost1:07:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:42

I, the, the larger Homer expanded universe.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:45

Um, yeah, so like I also didn't fully vibe with Anne Hathaway's performance.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:50

I didn't fully-

Chris RyanHost1:07:51

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:52

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:52

I, I, I didn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:55

There were, there were lo- I, I'm sorry to say it in this podcast, but I thought Bernthal was pretty ridiculous, um, doing the same thing, um, in this movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:04

I thought some people popped in smaller ways, like, um, Samantha Morton as Circe is awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:08:10

Uh-huh.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:10

Leguizamo is just, I loved.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:13

I love because that's showing as someone...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:15

I mean, this was, in small ways, this is John Leguizamo's Digger-

Chris RyanHost1:08:18

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:19

... because turns out he's like 65 and just really, really doesn't look it.

Chris RyanHost1:08:23

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:23

And I just liked that that was him, and e- there's something about...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:27

He, he seemed, it seemed like an old movie performance, like someone in, you know, like Edward G. Robinson in the Ten Commandments or something-

Chris RyanHost1:08:35

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:35

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:35

in a way that I was like, "This is cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:36

This is surprising.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:37

This is a person I haven't seen before." This is a actor I know, seeing him in a different way.

Chris RyanHost1:08:42

I think he also, um, this is not my favorite Nolan script.

Chris RyanHost1:08:48

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:48

Right

Chris RyanHost1:08:48

... you know, like I think there's two ways of ta- looking at that.

Chris RyanHost1:08:50

Is it structurally not my favorite? No, I actually quite like the structure.

Chris RyanHost1:08:54

I wish there were more moments of character rather than informational d- dead drops-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:01

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:09:02

... for, for a lot of these characters.

Chris RyanHost1:09:03

And I thought Leguizamo and Himesh Patel did-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:07

He's my other guy

Chris RyanHost1:09:07

...

Chris RyanHost1:09:07

the two best jobs of being like, "I know I have to mention Zeus's law or talk about-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:14

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:09:14

... you know, this, this thing that's happened and may happen again." But they felt like v- very real people, and I thought Bernthal did, too.

Chris RyanHost1:09:22

I thought Bernthal, the second time around, like when you know the, the accent is coming-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:27

Chris RyanHost1:09:27

... and we, it's not even an accent.

Chris RyanHost1:09:28

He's just doing Bernthal.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:29

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:09:29

Like, I think I liked the fact that everybody more or less did their voice, and it's, uh, honestly it was really funny.

Chris RyanHost1:09:36

I, w- the second time around, like Damon, when he's like, "This is cheese.

Chris RyanHost1:09:42

It's pretty good." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:43

I loved that part.

Chris RyanHost1:09:44

Like, I was like, "This is the most Boston just jumped out on Odysseus." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:47

I, I know, and I liked that.

Chris RyanHost1:09:49

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:49

I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:49

The thing about Bernthal, like this is a longer conversation, but like watching him do some of this press and I'm like, "Oh, he just seems like a nice man who also went to a private Quaker school."

Chris RyanHost1:09:58

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:59

And then as soon as he's on screen every year since I don't know what, he just does that, and I would like to see a different shade-

Chris RyanHost1:10:05

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:05

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:05

I would say.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:06

But clearly he's hired for [laughs] this is like the most insulted you've ever been on this podcast.

Chris RyanHost1:10:10

Just, I, I don't think you have to limit men who went to friend schools, you know? [laughs] Like they should have whatever they-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:14

Well, I think he could bring a little bit more of The Light Within.

Chris RyanHost1:10:16

I don't need an, I don't need an actor to be authentic to his off-screen persona.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:20

I'm not saying that he needs to do that.

Chris RyanHost1:10:22

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:22

I'm saying that there are other, other color crayons in the deck.

Chris RyanHost1:10:25

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:25

You know what I mean? In the pack.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:26

Um, not The Light...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:29

He's doing more Marlboro Light rather than The Light Within.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:31

Do, do you get what I'm saying?

Chris RyanHost1:10:32

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:33

And, and surely you [laughs] among all of us understand that they are both-

Chris RyanHost1:10:36

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:36

... twin flames burning at both ends.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:38

The, the Agamemnon p- the Agamemnon piece.

Chris RyanHost1:10:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:41

You know? But like y- having that be a safty who you never see, you know, and the idea that it was all for-

Chris RyanHost1:10:46

Show me the safty? Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:47

No, but it was all for n- it was all just greed, and he was undone by the things he wasn't paying attention to, and that, like I thought that was all just very well-woven.

Chris RyanHost1:10:57

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:57

Um, we mentioned the two scenes that I like best.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:01

I, I thought the-

Chris RyanHost1:11:02

My favorite, the one of the, um, uh, just to throw another one in there that you didn't mention, was the Hades scene.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:08

Oh, sorry.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:08

That's the best scene in the movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:09

Thank you.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:09

That was, that's what I was building to.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:11

I thought that was the most...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:12

And I wonder, let's talk about that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:13

Was it the best scene in the movie because it was the most otherworldly? I mean, I know there are monsters in other scenes, but like I thought that scene was so beautifully conceived.

Chris RyanHost1:11:23

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:23

It was so haunting, and I never wanted it to end, and then it ends in an incredible way.

Chris RyanHost1:11:29

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:29

And the way that he turned that moment into a vehicle for the narrative that he's been telling was masterful.

Chris RyanHost1:11:37

I mean-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:37

I thought that was an incredible scene

Chris RyanHost1:11:38

... another one that just, it, it got so much deeper the second time around for me, I didn't notice that Jovan Adepo, w- first of all, like the first time I don't even know if I noticed that Jovan Adepo-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:48

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:11:48

... was in the movie.

Chris RyanHost1:11:49

And he's then comes out when Sinan and Agamemnon are done talking and is like, "But you're old.

Chris RyanHost1:11:55

The people that you've already lost on this voyage, want to have a word with you?"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:58

Yeah, we have some scenes.

Chris RyanHost1:11:58

And that's what, like that's when the army of the dead run after him.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:02

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:12:02

Uh, I just thought that was...

Chris RyanHost1:12:05

I mean, the guy fucking went to Iceland to shoot a scene.

Chris RyanHost1:12:08

Like, that's awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:12:09

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:09

That's what, that's what that was?

Chris RyanHost1:12:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:12:10

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:11

No, it's incredible, and he's, he's afforded opportunities that other people don't, but he makes the most of them.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:16

What do you think of-

Chris RyanHost1:12:17

I still think this movie's gonna cost a lot less than Doomsday, though.

Chris RyanHost1:12:20

I mean, like you-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost1:12:21

... people act like it's...

Chris RyanHost1:12:22

I, and I don't know whether actors are taking discounts for him because they get to be in this-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:26

It's Zendaya-got scale, I would say.

Chris RyanHost1:12:27

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:27

I'm pretty sure.

Chris RyanHost1:12:28

What do you mean? What does that mean? Just she got-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:29

Your day rate.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:30

Like you're not getting, you're not getting the Zendaya starring in a movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:33

She's doing it because she wants to do it.

Chris RyanHost1:12:35

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:35

Um-

Chris RyanHost1:12:36

Right

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:36

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:36

but so let's talk, let's talk Damon.

Chris RyanHost1:12:39

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:40

Um, I, I love watching Matt Damon in movies.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:43

I just think he's just like a naturally charismatic actor who is also a movie star.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:49

And I, this, it's just a, it, it's just such a good use of him because I never really get tired of watching him in movies, and you don't...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:57

So he, he wears well over the course of this movie.

Chris RyanHost1:12:59

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:00

When it was over and, and I was reading more about it, and I saw Sean talking about this, that like it seems pretty clear that he probably went to Christian Bale first, or that that's a...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:08

Is that official, or we just think that?

Chris RyanHost1:13:09

I'd, I don't, I don't think that that's-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:11

that's-That's not been said?

Chris RyanHost1:13:13

That's not been said.

Chris RyanHost1:13:14

I, I think Sean and I and Amanda talked about, like, who else could have played this part-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:17

Could have

Chris RyanHost1:13:17

... and I think Sean was like, "Bale is the one that nags at me."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:20

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:13:21

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:21

I wondered that as well.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:24

Do you...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:24

What, what worked for you in the performance, and what...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:26

Do you have any notes or quibbles?

Chris RyanHost1:13:30

What worked? I mean, for, uh, physically I thought he captured, like, he, he...

Chris RyanHost1:13:36

The way he shaped his body I thought-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:37

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:13:37

... was, like, perfect for the historical era that they were trying to depict within the reality of the movie.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:42

Oh, although, sorry, to bring it full circle to where we started this podcast, the man ages 20 years and then straps himself to a, a, a raft to float home-

Chris RyanHost1:13:53

But that's-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:53

... and somehow returns in peak fighting shape.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:57

No salads.

Chris RyanHost1:13:58

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:59

No weight training.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:00

You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost1:14:01

Well, I mean, he...

Chris RyanHost1:14:01

I, I think when you have a, a physically active lifestyle, you can compensate for-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:06

My brother, he spent seven years munching on opium flowers

Chris RyanHost1:14:10

...

Chris RyanHost1:14:10

but every day he has to, like...

Chris RyanHost1:14:11

Yes, but beautiful seafood.

Chris RyanHost1:14:13

Just, like- [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:16

Don't tempt me with the part of the movie that...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:18

Don't make me say that I wish there was more of that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:20

So you think what Calypso's really doing is just, like, a small sea to plate kind of situation?

Chris RyanHost1:14:26

It, it reminds me a lot of this place I went in Vis, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:29

Mm.

Chris RyanHost1:14:29

uh, off of Croatia-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:30

Mm.

Chris RyanHost1:14:30

... where, you know, it's just, like, the best, the best of the best.

Chris RyanHost1:14:33

They cook it under a bell, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:34

What?

Chris RyanHost1:14:35

Embers kind of heating the bell.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:37

And you were in the best shape of your life.

Chris RyanHost1:14:38

And I was in the best shape of my life.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:40

Incredible.

Chris RyanHost1:14:40

Um, D- Damon, it's hard to distinguish between, Sean spoke about this very articulately, the, the associations you make with Damon, uh, Sean in a minute, but, uh, the, the sort of baggage you bring-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:54

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:14:54

... with, with Damon-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:55

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:14:55

... and being like, "Um, I trust this guy."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:59

Totally.

Chris RyanHost1:15:00

I don't mind if he does five things that put lots of people in danger.

Chris RyanHost1:15:04

I don't mind the arrogance of thinking that he can, only I can fix it.

Chris RyanHost1:15:09

I can defy the gods-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:10

Chris RyanHost1:15:10

... and figure out Cileng- and, and, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:13

Charybdis

Chris RyanHost1:15:13

...

Chris RyanHost1:15:13

Charybdis, where everybody else is like, "No, you, you really can't," you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:17

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:15:18

And again, the end of the Calypso sequence, the first time around I don't even think I was really processing it, and the second time I was like, oh, the, he has to give himself over-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:30

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:15:30

... to fate rather than try to conquer it, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:32

I, I think that his innate goodness and trustworthiness may have worked against some of the deeper themes of the movie because, uh, I was...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:45

I don't think I'm like...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:46

I, I, I'd like to think that I run towards, um, moral nuance in, in storytelling.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:52

I'd like to think that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:53

Um, you know, I, I, I, I, I hydrate, I stretch, and then I run towards it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:59

When he shoots the extra arrow at the already grievously wounded Cyclops and you're like, "Why did you do that?"

Chris RyanHost1:16:07

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:07

And the, his people are like, "Why did you do that? That was a real prick move." And he's like, "Well, he, he ate some of my friends-

Chris RyanHost1:16:12

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:12

... or whatever, and I have my moral code." And you realize that there is a counter-narrative, anti-heroic narrative to what he's doing in dragging these people.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:21

I was...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:22

That is the only thing that might make me wanna watch the movie again because in the watching, the, it almost worked against what I think the casting of him was meant to do, which is I trust this guy completely.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:33

Wait, why is he letting everybody down?

Chris RyanHost1:16:35

I think that he-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:36

I-

Chris RyanHost1:16:36

...

Chris RyanHost1:16:36

Damon has moved way beyond, like, that's m- the Martian, that's the guy who I just would like love to have a beer with and would trust-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:43

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:16:43

... with my life.

Chris RyanHost1:16:43

Like, I think Damon is capable of playing Colin in The Departed and the performa-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:47

No, he's a great actor

Chris RyanHost1:16:48

... and, and, like, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:49

I'm not, I, I'm not questioning his performance.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:50

I'm just saying that the way you use him, because as you guys were talking about, like, you cast people because of audiences' relationships to them as well, and you play towards it or you play against it, that I think some of the nuance of what he was doing and his stubbornness and how his, his trick un-broke the world was s- for me, in my experience watching it, was slow developing, and not...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:12

I don't think slow developing in the good way of the like, "Aha!"

Chris RyanHost1:17:16

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:16

I think it was more like I don't know how clearly that was communicated.

Chris RyanHost1:17:19

Where is that aha from? Oh, is that Princess Bride?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:21

That's Princess Bride.

Chris RyanHost1:17:21

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:22

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:23

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:23

Do you want me to do more?

Chris RyanHost1:17:24

No, but you've done it a bunch and I'm always like, "Who?" And then I'm like, "Oh, yeah, Billy Crystal."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:29

It's like the, um, you know, when the, the, "You serious about that?" I kind of had it decoupled from Joe Pesci-

Chris RyanHost1:17:36

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:37

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:37

in My Cousin Vinny.

Chris RyanHost1:17:38

Well, this, this is the, the profundity of your commentary is that you can borrow from the greats and then-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:43

From-

Chris RyanHost1:17:43

... make it your own

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:44

... all six of the movies I remember seeing.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:45

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:17:45

Um, I guess where, where do you wanna end?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:47

I, I think the hardest thing about this is it is such a major movie and it's a major event, and it's deserving of all this unpacking and conversation and discourse.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:57

I wish...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:58

This is a, this is a recurring thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:59

I wish there were more movies on this scale of ambition and of intent and of thought-

Chris RyanHost1:18:07

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:18:07

I mean-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:07

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:07

so that we could have a spirited conversation about where movies are on that level.

Chris RyanHost1:18:12

Right, and you worry that, like, this is, while great or at least a great experience, that it's like, is this a bottle of Aquafina in the middle of a desert?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:23

You love Aqu...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:23

But wait, you love Aquafina.

Chris RyanHost1:18:24

That's why I used it as a reference point.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:25

That would be a dream.

Chris RyanHost1:18:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:26

Oh, and I don't, so I'd be like, "No, thanks."

Chris RyanHost1:18:29

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:18:29

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:29

Would rather die.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:31

No, uh, I don't wor- I, I wanna b- I don't worry about anything.

Chris RyanHost1:18:35

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:36

You know what I mean? I just think that-

Chris RyanHost1:18:37

I assure you that's not the case.

Chris RyanHost1:18:38

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:39

When it comes to this film, nothing about it gives me pause, and I have no reason to concern troll.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:44

I think it's fascinating, and I think it's rich, and I think it's rewarding.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:47

Um, I, I, I, I...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:51

I'm not good at dealing with the world as it is, perhaps like Odysseus-

Chris RyanHost1:18:54

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:54

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:18:54

in the sense that in many ways we're similar, um, in the sense that I wish that it was in more active conversation with other big movies this summer.

Chris RyanHost1:19:01

Yes, where it, it's like this-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:02

Not, not to take sides, but just to have a more, uh, like a, a rounder, richer conversation as opposed to everything else is dog shit and this is exceptional.

Chris RyanHost1:19:12

Well, I think it's been a great year at the movies so far.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:13

At the great m- the movies, but on this fucking scale-

Chris RyanHost1:19:15

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:19:16

I think it would almost be interesting-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:17

... of, like, box office, Oscars, debate

Chris RyanHost1:19:17

...

Chris RyanHost1:19:17

if this was coming out and then next month Dune was coming out

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:20

outYeah

Chris RyanHost1:19:21

But we'll see.

Chris RyanHost1:19:23

We'll see how, we'll see when we get to the end of the year, you know, this is, this would be a pretty historic run for him to, to go back-to-back with films that he's directed with Oscar sweeps or Oscar juggernauts.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:37

His work ethic is unbelievable.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:39

Like, if you look at how many movies he's made.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:41

Um-

Chris RyanHost1:19:41

That's, it's, it's my favorite thing about him, is that there's all these now pockets of his filmography to get lost in.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:19:47

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:19:47

It's, it's really enjoyable.