‘Widow’s Bay’ Season 1 Finale: For Whom the Bell Tolls

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Joanna RobinsonHost1:49

Hello, welcome back to the Fresh Seems TV Podcast Feed.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:51

I'm Joanna Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:53

We are live to cover the Widow's Bay finale.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:55

It ended mere moments ago on the Apple platform.

Yeah, linear TV-ish.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:00

Yeah, ish.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:01

I don't know how, how appointment television watching Widow's Bay is.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:05

The Apple release, I think people tend to watch sort of here, there-

Willy-nilly

Joanna RobinsonHost2:09

... and everywhere.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:09

I think a lot of people were like, "Isn't this a Wednesday show?" It's a Tuesday night show, folks.

Here's the thing.

If anything was going to establish that level of instant credibility, we have to be on top of it, it does seem like Widow's Bay has people frothing, you know?

Joanna RobinsonHost2:21

Look, kind of appointment television.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:22

So episode 10, "We Hope You Enjoyed Your Time," directed by Hiro Murai, uh, written by Katie Dippold.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:28

So, like, the all-star team is here.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:29

Uh, that's incredible.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:30

I also think those, th- that duo is gonna be on The Watch this week.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:33

That's what I heard.

Oh, that's thrilling.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:34

Yeah, I know.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:35

Very exciting.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:36

Um, here's what we're gonna do.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:38

Usually we start with a mail bag.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:39

Let's, there's too much to talk about.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:41

We're not gonna start...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:42

We have some emails, we'll get to them, but I wanna start...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:45

Well, I guess, first and foremost, did you like this episode of television, Rob Mahoney?

I adored this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:50

Tell me why.

I really loved it.

I mean, to me it's less about the big mystery stuff.

We talked about that some last week.

Turns out there's another secret Warren, great, it-

Joanna RobinsonHost2:58

And more the friends we made along the way?

It's less even the friends we made along the way-

Joanna RobinsonHost3:01

Yeah

... than the friends we may or may not be deciding to kill along the way.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:04

Mm.

And the way that we have this mystery reveal, and then we're just kinda dancing around it with a big philosophical conversation that only one member of the conversation even knows that they're having.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:14

Yeah, I loved that.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:15

And I, I think that, um, you know, from the start I was excited that Kate Callen was in this cast-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost3:20

... who plays Ruth, because, um, I know her from, uh, the Superman show from the '90s, but also she was in Knives Out, and she's just like, she's a real, like, like, stealth, like, star-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost3:31

... and she's really the star of this episode.

Steals it.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:33

Absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:34

Though, of course, Matthew Rhys, incredible in this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:36

And the way that Matthew Rhys insided this, like, little, uh, horror comedy conspiracy show, the drama, like, I felt like I was watching The Americans for a second-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost3:47

... with, like, his conflict, the way his brow was wrinkled as he's just sitting there s- marinating in the, like, grief and guilt over what he felt like he had to do to Ruth.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:56

I thought that was r- like, it's a, it's a funny episode, uh, as is all Widow's Bay.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:00

It's a tense episode, but, like, I just think it's a very dr- like, well-acted drama moment-

Very much

Joanna RobinsonHost4:06

... for, for Tom.

There's so many individual moments that I wanna, like, spotlight within this episode, but the moment where I knew they had this finale dialed in, not a surprise given the way the season has gone, but I was like, "Okay, I feel like I'm in especially good hands to close out this story in the way that is gonna be satisfying to me personally," is when Tom shows up, and Ruth, after he kind of catches her by surprise on the treadmill where she's, you know, just doing a casual two miles-

Joanna RobinsonHost4:30

Yeah, two mile

... no big.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:30

No big.

Um, and she gives him the, like, "Oh, I, like, I thought you forgot about me." And the, the brief pause as Matthew Rhys goes full Americans.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:39

Yeah.

The inner torment of Tom before he lets out the never.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:42

Yeah.

I was like, "Okay, we are, we are cooking with something.

We are in a register that I think this is just really gonna hit."

Joanna RobinsonHost4:48

Um, speaking of which, I can't remember if we've talked about this already, but there's been a bit of a sort of resurgence on The Americans as people are discovering what Matthew Rhys can do.

Mm.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:58

I feel a lot of people are-

A Rhysissance?

Joanna RobinsonHost4:59

Uh, okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:01

A Rhysissance?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:02

Maybe.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost5:03

That sounds like it's about Reese Witherspoon-

That's true

Joanna RobinsonHost5:05

... and it's not.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:06

Oh, Matthew Rhysissance.

Yeah, have you heard of him?

Joanna RobinsonHost5:07

I get it.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:08

[laughs]

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost5:09

We're live.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:10

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:11

Um, we are drinking sunset cocktails-

Everyone does

Joanna RobinsonHost5:15

... as con- configured by our producers, our wonderful producers.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:18

Um, okay, here's the first question that I wanna talk about: how the message got lost.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:24

This is a question that you've been asking all season, is like, who knows what?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:29

You're like, "There have to be people around who know, uh, what, what this means." You know, and, and we hear from, uh, like, Ruth, and we'll get to it, a litany of strange and unusual things that have happened to her family.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:42

But here's what I pieced together from the context clues that we got in this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:46

So Ruth mentions Mayor Howard the coward.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:49

And she says, "Surprised when he left.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:51

I was surprised when he left, but people get scared." Right? So if, if there was a, a process of passing the message down one mayor to another, and we, and we got an email about this, that we haven't heard anything about Tom's predecessor.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:05

You know, if- If Howard the Coward, I don't know if he was, like, named as Tom's direct predecessor, just someone that Ruth worked for-

I think there probably would've been a gap just based on the time.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:15

Timing.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:16

Um, but if he left and, and didn't...

Joanna RobinsonHost6:19

Like, perhaps he found out what he had to do, and he just got the fuck out of there rather than do it-

Right

Joanna RobinsonHost6:25

... and didn't pass that information down to the next person, uh, that's one way the message could've gotten lost.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:31

Rosemary's predecessor saying, "Don't go down there into the basement," so Rosemary's predecessor knew, like, as recently as that-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost6:38

...

Joanna RobinsonHost6:38

but didn't tell Rosemary why not to, you know?

Well, even her predecessor might not have known exactly.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:42

Right.

It's just, like, one of these things that becomes an urban legend.

You don't go into that place.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:47

And then I was thinking about Reverend Brice's predecessor, right?

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:50

The note that Reverend Brice found, "To the rector of the church, I pray that this burden will never fall to you, but should the bell toll, these are the steps you must take.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:58

On the north side of the rectory, there is a chamber where you will find..." Dot, dot, dot.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:01

Reverend Brice, uh, instead of taking on that job, killed himself.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:06

Right? So, like, how does something this big, this mass conspiracy, this, this social contract of the island get lost-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost7:15

... and it's just sort of like one by one by one, the message did not get passed down to the person who took it?

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:20

That's, that's sort of my assessment of what's going on.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:21

Do you agree?

Well, and what's even happening with the-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:23

Do you concur?

I do concur.

Uh, especially that kind of chain of command, right? It's not as simple as mayor to mayor to mayor to mayor because whether they were cowardly, whether they drew a line in the sand morally, whether they just refused to believe that any of this supernatural stuff was real, even as people were getting bitten by animals and turning into those animals-

Joanna RobinsonHost7:39

[laughs]

... every mayor is able to draw the lines for themselves.

And that's where, yeah, pastors, priests, citizens of the town, other people might have gotten involved at various points to keep the chain going, to keep the island surviving to whatever extent it has.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:53

Well, there was a council.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:54

Like, a council that was formed, uh, which we saw in the flashback episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:58

And then in the reel-to-reel that Dave, uh, that Dale watches, there is, like, a council mentioned, right?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:02

So, there was a council.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:05

L- Like, who was on it, and how did it dwindle, and how did that message get lost? Let's talk about the rules as we understand them.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:13

Every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings, and also every time a bell, the bell rings, the island is demanding a soul 'cause it's hungry.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:22

You mentioned this, like, that the bell was a dinner bell, right, for the island, feed the island.

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:26

In the flashback, we saw f- we heard five bells toll, uh, on the night of Sarah's wedding night-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost8:35

...

Joanna RobinsonHost8:35

in the flashback.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:37

And so that's when the mayor knows, "I gotta go." Uh, you know, Richard Warren's like, "I gotta go kill some people," right? Um, nine bell tolls earlier this season.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:48

One guy gets fed to the-

Candy

Joanna RobinsonHost8:51

... to the, uh, hatch.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:53

Um, now it's 8:00.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:55

And then there were eight.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:55

So the island's still hungry, still demands eight souls.

Well, this is an, an amuse-bouche.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:59

Mm-hmm.

You know, we're just whetting the appetite.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:01

Appetizers, yeah.

I, I mean, do you think the island is growing? You know, from, from Richard Warren's time to now, is it just gonna get to be more and more and more every single time?

Joanna RobinsonHost9:10

Well, we did get an email of someone noting, you know, when I went through the timeline the other day of sort of the things that have happened on the island-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost9:17

...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:17

they were like, "You'll note that there's sort of, like, a mass casualty event," uh, you know?

Every so often.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:22

And so what's the chicken and the egg, right? Like, is it the storm is created because the island is hungry and angry-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost9:28

... or, um, uh, you know, and that creates the crash or a shipwreck or, or cannibalism-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost9:34

... or whatever the case may be, and be- then the island is sated because it has been fed those souls.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:38

But if they're eating each other, then they're not feeding the hatch, so I don't know if that counts, you know?

Well, this is the trolley problem within the trolley problem, right?

Joanna RobinsonHost9:45

[laughs]

If you're creating-

Joanna RobinsonHost9:45

It's trolleys all the way down

...

if you're creating a council-

Joanna RobinsonHost9:47

Yeah

... to, as far as we understand from the reels, democratically vote who you wanna feed to the island-

Joanna RobinsonHost9:52

Who's bad

... who's, who are the bad guys?

Joanna RobinsonHost9:54

Yeah.

Who, who can we live without?

Joanna RobinsonHost9:56

Yeah.

I mean, Jo, if, if we had to do this at The Ringer-

Joanna RobinsonHost9:59

Oh

...

if we had to democratically vote someone to sacrifice-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:02

Uh-huh

... to our metaphorical island here at the studio-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:05

Yeah

... do you have a, do you have any nominees? Is there anyone you're willing to give up?

Joanna RobinsonHost10:07

Um, in, in order to preserve my relationship with everyone-

Yep

Joanna RobinsonHost10:10

...

Joanna RobinsonHost10:10

I will throw myself into the hatch.

Wow.

I don't believe that for a second.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost10:14

And your answer is, "I simply wouldn't vote."

I also would vote for you.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost10:19

[laughs] No, but really, who should we put into the hatch?

I don't know.

Well, we obviously can't throw, like, Kai or Dev or Jacob into the hatch.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:26

No, no, not our team.

Too instrumental to our show.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:29

Not our team.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:29

No, no, no, no. We're the council.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:31

We're safe.

I mean, wouldn't, wouldn't Chris Ryan wanna do what's best for us?

Joanna RobinsonHost10:35

Speaking of Chris's, do you think Chris is gonna go, like, uh, shitty Chris in, on Widows Bay is gonna go into the hatch next season?

He sucks.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:43

She's the worst.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost10:44

Um-

Oh, that...

I thought you were talking about, like...

I thought the guy...

Is the guy not also named Chris who was fussy about the MREs?

Joanna RobinsonHost10:50

Oh, that's, that's, that guy struck me as an off-island douche.

Oh, he's an off-island douche.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:53

Is he not?

I mean, you can't trust anyone off the island.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:55

By his, like, the, the newness of his fleece, he seems like an off-island douchebag.

[laughs] You don't think they're getting new, fresh fleece?

Joanna RobinsonHost11:02

I d- they don't even have cellphones.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:03

I don't think they're getting-

There's, there's not a, a North Face on here? [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost11:07

No. [laughs]

It's tough.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:07

You didn't wanna shout out L.L.Bean again.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:09

You're going to North Face? Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:11

Um, so yeah, there's a council of some kind, or once upon a time-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost11:14

...

Joanna RobinsonHost11:14

in at least the s- '50s or '60s-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost11:17

... which is by that guy's short sleeve collared shirt and tie.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:20

That's, uh, when that reel-to-reel.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:22

A council of some kind votes on who to send into the pit.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:25

"The bad times will not end until the covenant is honored and honored fully, one soul for each bell toll.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:29

Their fear is necessary." [laughs]

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:31

"They say it likes the taste."

I don't like that.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:34

Who's it communing to that it expresses its desire for the taste of fear?

Well, clearly Richard Warren was in congress with the beast.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:41

So you think other-

Uh, Tom has been

Joanna RobinsonHost11:43

... you think other people are, are mushrooming and, and sort of intoning into the darkness?

I don't know how many people are even allowed, right-

Joanna RobinsonHost11:49

Hmm

... to, to summon, to be a part of those particular conversations.

These are senior staff only, you know?

Joanna RobinsonHost11:54

[laughs]

Upper level management.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:56

Um, something that we should note is that when Evan, who by the way, for the, the slanderers of Evan, Evan was the only teen who did not run away and, like, abandon what was happening-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost12:05

...

Joanna RobinsonHost12:05

in that hatch.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:05

He tried To get that door open as best-

He did

Joanna RobinsonHost12:09

...

Joanna RobinsonHost12:09

he could or whatever.

Not his fault.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:10

The door unlocked itself, right?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:14

Or the entity unlocked it.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:16

I don't know w- which is worse.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:18

And then the hatch doors are slightly ajar.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:22

Um, were they always ajar?

Uh, I don't think they were always ajar.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:26

No. [laughs]

No.

And the trails of blood and the lit flashlight-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:30

Oh, yeah

... you know, it goes without saying.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:31

We know where it went, but I'm just saying the fact that the door is still open-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost12:34

... bothers me.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:35

Like, you know, the, the entity wasn't like, "I'm all full until the next eight," and closed the door, is like the door is still ajar.

As someone who has been at this office basically from sun up until now, has it occurred to you that these doors might not unlock until it's done with you?

Joanna RobinsonHost12:49

Why are you outing the fact [laughs] that I have been here all day? [laughs]

You work hard, and I want the people to appreciate it.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:55

Um, all right.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:56

Let's talk about Ruth and Tom and the trolley problem.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:59

You know, something I noted when we were asking sort of who the Warren descendant...

Joanna RobinsonHost13:03

And by the way, thank you for your one million emails being like, "Hey, dumb-dumbs-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost13:07

... it's probably still Evan."

It's obviously Evan.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:09

Y- you guys are so dumb.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:11

[laughs]

We are quite credulous sometimes.

I don't know what to tell you.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:13

Why'd you just think it's Ruth? It's also Evan.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:15

Okay, so it is Evan.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:16

Um, or is it? Yeah, it is.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:19

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:19

Um, but Tom, as I noted when we were discussing Evan as a possibility earlier this season, in almost every, I think in every single episode, Tom asks some version of, "Is Evan okay?"

Right.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:30

Right? And he does so again in this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:33

Uh, you know, like, tells Patricia to look after Evan.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:37

Tr- over the walkie is asking if Evan is okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:39

So I just, like, really liked, you know, not only establishing Tom's genuine care for him, but just sort of like the question of the show is, is Evan okay?

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:49

Like, is he going to be okay with this in- like, Tom has this information now.

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost13:54

So.

And going into season two where I, I think I had always been for some reason thinking about the finale, if it was going to be Evan-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:02

Mm-hmm

... that it was gonna be Tom who was left with this choice potentially of like, what do I do, right? Like, would he even be willing to sacrifice his son, obviously not, for the sake of the island? And where does that drive story? Where does that drive drama? If he's not going to be willing to give up his son, where is the conflict?

Joanna RobinsonHost14:17

You gotta find eight people to feed into the hatch.

You gotta find a bunch of people, and now I think we have this great tension going into season two where Bashir knows that somebody-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:25

Right

... is a secret Warren but doesn't know who.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:27

Yeah.

And Tom is protecting Evan, clearly-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:30

Yeah

...

but also needs to get his own Richard Warren on and be smuggling some bodies down into the cellar if he wants to keep Evan out of trouble.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:37

Is that what the future seasons are? Is, is it sort of like Little Shop of Horrors feed me thing where, like, he's gonna have to, like, feed randos to...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:43

That's a musicals reference.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:44

[laughs]

I understand Li-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:45

[laughs]

You, you know well that I'm familiar with Little Shop of Horrors.

How dare you.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:50

[laughs]

I've never been condescended to more than during the middle of this episode where we're rewatching it together and you're like, "That's Phantom of the Opera." [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost14:57

I don't know, Rob.

How dare you.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:59

You're anti-musical, and you're like, "I know, Joanna," but, like, listen-

Look-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:01

... there's a lot you don't know

... you can tell me when it's, like, a Jellicle Ball reference-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:05

[laughs]

... and that I'm not getting.

Please do.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:07

Yeah.

But come on.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:08

You know Phantom.

Phantom of the Opera.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:09

Okay.

Little Shop of Horrors.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:10

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:11

All right.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:11

We'll get the list of all the musicals-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost15:12

... you know later.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:13

Um-

The approved materials

Joanna RobinsonHost15:14

...

Joanna RobinsonHost15:14

but yeah, like, I, I, we'll, we'll, we'll wrap this up with, like, who knows what and what that means going-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost15:20

... because what I like about this episode is, like, a bunch of different people get little pieces of the puzzle-

Exactly

Joanna RobinsonHost15:25

...

Joanna RobinsonHost15:25

but no one has the full puzzle.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:26

So Ruth and Tom, uh, the medical chart, Ruth's medical chart, you and I both laughed.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:32

How did you feel about that?

Just her thyroid levels, wow.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:36

I want that on my chart.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:37

[laughs]

We can all be so lucky.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:39

I do have, like, for some reason incredibly good blood pressure, and every time, uh, I think doctors expect I won't have good blood pressure, and they take my blood pressure, and they're like, "You have the blood pressure of a teenager." I'm like, "Thank you.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:50

I know."

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost15:51

[laughs] There's so many other things wrong with me, but I do have that going for me.

It's nice to prove people wrong sometimes, you know?

Joanna RobinsonHost15:56

Oxycodone and diazepam.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:59

I, I just don't think a person should be on those-

Both

Joanna RobinsonHost16:01

... two things even if they have a note that says, "Don't take them together."

I, I did Google this.

You should, in fact, not take them together.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:08

No. [laughs]

Seems like a bad idea.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:09

I don't, I didn't, I did not have...

Joanna RobinsonHost16:11

The narc in me knew-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost16:12

... that you did not have to, uh, I did not have to Google that.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:15

Um, have you ever snooped through someone's medical, uh, medicine cabinet?

No.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:19

Okay.

I've never really seen the appeal.

Like, am I gonna, what am I gonna see in there? Hemorrhoid cream? Like, what, what's the great secret?

Joanna RobinsonHost16:26

I, yeah, what are people ashamed of medically?

SSRI's, like-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:29

Yeah, yeah

... it's cool, man.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost16:29

Yeah, we, we're pro mental health.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:31

You need those, you need that Wellbutrin-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost16:34

... you take that Wellbutrin.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:35

Um, the rain slicker, like, Tom standing outside of her house in the pouring rain in the rain slicker.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:41

Very I Know What You Did Last Summer, very serial killer.

Oh, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:45

Um-

And he's so cold, like, emotionally-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:48

Mm-hmm

...

in those moments when he's first getting to the house.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:49

'Cause he's trying to, like-

Steel himself

Joanna RobinsonHost16:51

... you know, steel himself-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost16:52

... to do this.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:53

Um-

I, I love structurally how Tom spends the vast majority of this episode, like, trying to talk himself into and excuse himself.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:00

Not only that, get Ruth to tell him it's the right thing to do.

He wants her to forgive him before-

Joanna RobinsonHost17:04

Yeah

...

he even does it.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:05

Yeah.

Spends most of the episode doing that, and then just, like, the last flickering instance trying to find every reason to save her.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:11

Yeah.

And it's like, that, that's just, like, a great way to set up a finale like this.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:14

I really agree.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:15

Um, what do you think Ruth listens to on her treadmill? Is she a podcast girly?

She is definitely not a podcast girly.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:21

Okay.

Does she know about podcasts?

Joanna RobinsonHost17:23

So it's, like, big band, uh-

Okay

Joanna RobinsonHost17:25

... doo-wop.

Polka.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:26

Polka.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm Czech.

Maybe I'm just inclined to think that old ladies listen to polka, but that's where I come from.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:32

I don't think old-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost17:35

Older women, if you are listening to this podcast, what do you listen to on your treadmill?

I re- I think the BPMs are good for polka, to be honest with you.

I think it could, it could really get the heart going.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:43

Yeah, you're right.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:44

The, uh, uh, jaunty brass.

That's, that's all you really need.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:47

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:47

Herb garden situation.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:48

Here's the deal.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:49

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:50

First of all, I have a small herb garden going.

As do I.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:53

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:54

That herb garden's gone in that storm.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:57

It's not surviving that storm, first of all.

Depends on what plants.

Basil, you couldn't flamethrower that thing.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:02

[laughs] Secondly, the chamomile and lavender tisane that she makes, like, there's no way you can smuggle pills into that thing Not only is it gritty-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost18:14

... it's bit- they would be bitter.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:16

Would they not be? And, like, a lavender chamomile.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:18

If it's, like, a, a, a sturdy cup of Earl Grey, like a bitter cup of Earl Grey, like, you could s- I- that's, folks if you're listening at home, that's the tea to drug.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:28

That's what you do.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:29

But, like, an herbal-

Don't tell people that

Joanna RobinsonHost18:30

...

Joanna RobinsonHost18:30

but an herbal tisane? Like, you can't, you can't smuggle it in under that, under those light, floral flavors.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:36

You can't do it.

Well, especially the greater context of this entire sequence when Tom first gets to the house is, like, showing all the ways in which Ruth is living a rich and full life.

This is not the kind of wo-

Joanna RobinsonHost18:46

Elderly and full

... like, she, she just knows inside and out the taste of every herb that's in that tea.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:51

Mm-hmm.

Like, she would know if anything is off, much less texture, much less bitterness.

Like, this is not the woman you can pull a fast one on, despite everything we were kinda told earlier in the season.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:00

All season we were like, "This is a-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost19:01

...

Joanna RobinsonHost19:01

this is an elderly lady who's got nothing."

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:03

But she's, like, she's tired in the middle of the day.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:06

She needs a nap.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:06

But once she's alert, I get alert at night, you know?

Well, she, and she's tired in the middle of the day 'cause she also needs the excuse to go help her other elderly friend up and down her-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:14

Deirdre

... porch steps.

Deirdre.

Shout out to Deirdre, a real one.

This-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:16

I'm gonna come back to that

... uh, I mean, of all the things I love and admire about this episode, one of them is we don't get here to this particular endgame if Tom cared about Ruth enough to actually show up to her house earlier in the season-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:30

Right, if he knew anything about her

... 'cause he would've, he would actually know about her life.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:33

Yeah.

He, he probably would've known the reveal four episodes ago-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:35

Right

...

if he had actually been helping her to work.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:37

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:37

She might've told him about Lauren.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:39

Possibly.

And so Tom is out here doing a bunch of things he says are for the good of Widow's Bay.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:44

Mm-hmm.

And Ruth is out here living for the good of Widow's Bay.

Like, she's the one who wants to be a part of a community-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:50

Mm-hmm

... who wants to help other people.

Like, she is a genuinely good person who is offering hands to everyone around her.

She's, she's the one who will take in Evan, in part 'cause it's her gr- grandson, but-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:00

On the one hand, yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:01

On the other hand, when she gets good and doped up and starts telling her story, like, that's not necessarily, like, a good person story.

Well, she's lived a life.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:08

[laughs]

She's-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:09

She's made some choices

... she's made some choices.

She, and she's rectifying with those choices in a way that Tom, it takes him way too long to do the very same.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:17

Uh, her cross-stitch quote-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost20:19

... a Tennessee Williams quote, "The world is violent and mercurial.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:21

It will have its way with you.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:23

We are saved only by love.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:24

Love for each other and the love that we pour into the art we feel compelled to share.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:27

Being a parent, being a writer, being a painter, being a friend, we live in a perpetually burning building, and what we must save from it, all the time, is love."

It's so good.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:36

Shout out Tennessee Williams.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:38

Um, really impressed with her dexterity and eyesight that she was able to cross-stitch that entire-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost20:43

... massive quote in tiny letters onto her cross-stitch.

Well, she couldn't read her own stitch handwriting by the end of it, but-

Joanna RobinsonHost20:48

Listen, it's tough.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:49

But, um, like, the ph- the philosophy that pours out of Ruth in, in this sequence-

Incredible

Joanna RobinsonHost20:56

...

Joanna RobinsonHost20:56

when she talks about, like, the trolley is, is life and I'm the lever, like, all of that is just really good stuff, really well, well-performed.

I just think this whole conversation-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:07

Mm

... and that debate, like, this is an action set piece.

You know? Like, this is high drama, and it is ex- like, when I think about what I want out of a finale, yeah, you want Bashir coming in with the gun.

You want some kind of monstery element here on Widow's Bay.

But, like, I want people having these kinds of conversations and, and really reckoning with what it means to live in a place like this and what you're willing to excuse.

And with all due respect to Patricia, who I won't say a bad word about, she hasn't really had time to articulate her perspective on not killing Ruth, other than it's-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:39

It's wrong

... a bad thing to kill a person.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:40

Right, right.

What Ruth is saying here is it's not just bad to kill a person, but the act of choosing to kill a person-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:46

Right

... for this reason-

Joanna RobinsonHost21:47

Yes

... is the choice you never come back from.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:49

Right.

And I am not willing to do that.

Like, I am willing to live in a chaotic world.

I am willing to try to bring love into it however I can at the end of the day, Tennessee Williams style, but it simply wouldn't be me.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:00

Um, can we put Tennessee Williams style on the quote card-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost22:03

... for this week? I think that, and what I love about the way that this finale, uh, works out, because she's not dead despite being shot in the head-

I think we need to talk about that.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:12

But she's not dead, and so, uh, you know, first of all, uh, Bashir of course is the one who, who pulled the trigger, so Tom has plausible deniability there.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:20

But, like-

It's at least partly his fault

Joanna RobinsonHost22:23

... oh, it's definitely partly his fault.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:24

But he hasn't really fully pulled that lever yet.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:27

But that decision, that trolley pro- problem is still, there's just eight more people on the trolley-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost22:32

... than he understood there to be.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:34

But he's still gotta decide whether or not to pull that lever, or can he, like, weasel his way around it and figure out how to make other people pull the lever for him or something like that, you know?

It's true.

I mean, it, it, I think it's such an interesting refraction of the stuff we get from Wick and Tom earlier in the season-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:48

Yeah

... about how he's a coward, right?

Joanna RobinsonHost22:49

Yeah.

Him being a coward kinda stops him f- at least, at least gives him, after poisoning Ruth, the moment of clarity to wanna go save her.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:58

Yeah.

Like, I think those things are folded into each other.

But it also does just leave open the window-

Joanna RobinsonHost23:03

Yeah

... for Bashir to come in and do something dangerous and violent and impulsive.

But he's also doing that thing for the same reason that Tom has been doing so many things, we learn, over the course of this season.

Like, when Ruth is unconscious because he drugged her and he's kind of giving her his last confession before what he assumes will be her death, what he says is that, like, his wife warned him about all of this, and that when she had her stroke, it basically confirmed for him that the curse of Widow's Bay is real, that all of the supernatural shit is real and dangerous, and he knew that.

And the father in him wanted Evan to have as rich a full life as he could and wanted to bring other stuff to Widow's Bay, and the mayor in him, who should've known that's a terrible fucking idea, invited it all in anyway.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:44

Here's what I think is really interesting.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:45

A question we've been a- you and I have been sort of debating all season is sort of, like, what did Tom know? When did he know it? What does he believe in?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:52

And the answer was more complicated than either of us were sort of drilling down on, because you were like, "Well, surely he knew because he didn't take Evan off island," and it's like he knew on some level.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:03

He was in deep denial about it.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:06

But what I love about this is, like, um, it's very final season of Breaking Bad.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:11

Like, I did it because I liked it.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:13

When he says, "I wanted more for him."

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:16

And then he says ... and myself.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:18

Like, he's, he is looking at himself in the mirror here, and he's just sort of like, "Let me be really honest." Again, Matthew Rhys delivering that whole speech of like, "I laughed it off, I teased her about it.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:28

I don't understand why I didn't just listen." And this, this is sort of like a larger theme of the season.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:35

I have this like working theory, in terms of like how did the message get lost?

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:40

I don't know if this is over, overreaching, but there's this idea of like, do we listen to our elders?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:46

Like, do we listen to people? And it's just like people have been telling us all season about what's going on.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:52

And Rhys rattles off like, you know, all of these strange, you know, d-

My dad got taken by a monster in the lake

Joanna RobinsonHost24:56

...

Joanna RobinsonHost24:56

in the lake, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:57

My Aunt Benny just stopped talking, you know what I mean? We tried to build a trolley and all the workers disappeared.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:03

But like what Rosemary knows, like all the old-timers in the, in, in the bar who were like goading Tom into going into the hotel, right, for the night.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:11

Um, and then the old-timer that they literally shut the door on in last week's episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:17

But like if you listened to these old people, perhaps we would have more pieces of the puzzle-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost25:22

... uh, than we have at this point, you know?

It's just everyone who's a little bit younger feels like they have all the answers, or all the resources.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:28

Yeah.

Or are like agile to the modern world in a way that acclimates them better to solve these contemporary problems, when these contemporary problems have been going on for hundreds of years because they are, surprise, mythical and demonic in nature.

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18 plus.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:15

[laughs] It is not really a, a Patricia and Wick episode, which is fine, 'cause they've had their time in the sun.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:21

Not, you know, Rosemary is also here-

Mm-hmm

Joanna RobinsonHost27:24

... and great as always, but she's, she's had her time to shine.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:27

Uh, Bashir and Shel, um, I like Bashir's desperation.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:32

I like that we don't even have to see Patricia explain to him what's going on.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost27:35

We just like, he's trying to get to the bottom of the case and then he shows up, you know? Like I think, I thought all of that was done really, really well.

I thought his inclusion in this episode is perfect-

Joanna RobinsonHost27:47

Yeah

... for the character he's been and where he's, what he's been going through all season.

And we've been laughing at his e- exasperation-

Joanna RobinsonHost27:52

Yeah

... and just like the reactions in those moments are really great for comedy.

But when you really zoom out, he's a character who despite the fact that he is in charge of the law enforcement on the island, has been given no information.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:04

Mm-hmm.

Or at least like two steps behind.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:06

I know, where did that information get lost?

Right.

Like, like Tom-

Joanna RobinsonHost28:09

In the law enforcement

...

Tom always knows more.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:11

Mm-hmm.

Lately, Patricia and Wick have known a lot more than Bashir.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:14

Yeah.

And so the fact that he is constantly playing catch-up as far as what they know is what makes him so desperate in this moment.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:20

Right.

Where for him, like the talk, the clock is ticking, right? Like he, he is acting in a way where his child's life will be decided by what happens in the next couple hours.

That's his understanding.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:29

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:29

Shel is literally in labor.

Right, based on the information he has.

And he has less than Tom to process it.

Joanna RobinsonHost28:35

Yeah.

And he has less than Patricia and Wick to process it.