Episode 63: The Relational Nature of Psychedelics: Indigenous Knowledge & Healing w/ Dr. Keith Williams

Yeah.

And, you know, this is such a good point, Matt.

And this is something I've been, you know, I have been thinking about a lot over the years and or a bit anyway over the years.

And I think, you know, there there is there not only is there a risk of appropriation, but it does, you know, it does happen.

And I think quite regularly.

And and I think.

think the challenge is you know when western practitioners you know are you know see see the benefits and and and of indigenous approaches and it and it makes sense to people you know there's a desire to to take some of that up you know and i can understand that because you know we're you know those of us who are working that in this field it's like you you know you're there to help people in there for a reason and if you feel like there's something that can help the people that you're working with.

You'll probably want to use it.

But I think the risk there is that when we you know, when we, or when people, when people, um, appropriate elements of indigenous culture into when those, when those elements, whether they're, you know, like, like smudges or feathers or, or, or, or, or the language of plant teachers or certain rituals or ceremonies or songs, when those things are, are, are uncritically absorbed and inequitably absorbed into, a dominant mainstream biomedical paradigm really like so much is lost and then it becomes something else and and and you know from my my understanding my limited understanding you know indigenous rituals indigenous traditions especially the icaros like these sacred songs it's like they're you know they're of a place they're of a place and of a like they emerge from relationships they emerge from alliances that have to be maintained.

And, and really, if you, if you, if you, if you try to sample from them, you know, to do a mashup, you know, you know, Western psychotherapeutic biomedical slash indigenous treatment approach, it's like, they really lose, like, you know, they lose their power.

Like then it becomes something else and it becomes this kind of, well, like a tokenistic sort of, um, gesture and, and, And I think then it defeats the purpose if the purpose was originally to draw strength from those approaches for healing.

Sometimes there may be other purposes, like establishing legitimacy of a particular lineage, and then that's a whole other question.

And that's even thornier.

I don't know if I answered your question or not, but please feel free to ask a follow-up if I haven't.

At any rate, it's fascinating concepts that we're covering no matter what direction you take these questions.

It seems like there's, like you said, a lot of ways you could explore some of these conversation points we're having, but I think they all, for me, are looping back to, you know, this development and, you know, you look at changes and, you know, advancements of access to psychedelic assisted therapies.

And it sounds like having maybe more of a balance, not trying to shoehorn psychedelics into a biomedical prevailing model, uh, but finding like, what is that balance and how, what is that process like of keeping indigenous knowledge, uh, you know, front and center in how we contextualize, you know, this healing opportunity that's available for people.

Yeah, I think so.

And I think, you know, like I don't, You know, I mean, I think the Western science and the Western biomedical model has been critiqued plenty, and there's a lot of room for critique.

But of course, nobody can deny the strength and power of that approach and the validity of that approach.

But I guess more than anything, what I'm hoping, especially with this paper and my work more broadly, is that is that there will be room for a plurality of approaches and Yeah.

And I just think, you know, particularly if, if, um, if the traditional, um, keepers of that knowledge are, are, are, um, are recognized, their authority is recognized.

Um, you know, I think that's really, that's the way to go rather than, you know, limiting what's available to, um, yeah, to, to something that, you know, may not serve everyone, especially people, especially yeah may not serve everyone we'll just leave it at that and and you know overall like really I think you know getting back to your earlier question about borrowing from indigenous knowledge or or or you know appropriating elements of indigenous culture and bringing those into the psychedelic assisted therapy field I think From my perspective, what I would say would be far more respectful and meaningful and authentic would be for practitioners to say, okay, well, what is it really that I appreciate about what's happening here in the indigenous world? What is it about that? And without necessarily having to go and take those songs or those practices or those types of feathers, but to say, okay, well, how can I establish relationships with the more than human where I live to service my healing practice? Because essentially, that is at the core of indigenous healing.

It's balancing what was unbalanced.

And that balance comes from right relationship.