Sep 30, 2026 · 57 min · 10 segments
James Curran is in conversation with Frank Bongiorno on his new book Grand Ambition . Paul Keating's Global Vision for Australia.
James CurranGuest
Frank BongiornoHost
I mean, you've already hinted at this, I guess, James, but, you know, you talk about his early life here.
I mean, you don't pick up the story in December 1991 or even at his maiden speech in 1970.
And, I mean, what do you find in those early years that sort of, I mean, I guess the watch story is one of them, but what do you find there that kind of points in the direction of where he lands later?
I mean, I have a great interest in the intellectual history of leaders and the worldview being developed.
So he's reading a lot very early about Churchill, about Roosevelt, about Hitler.
These are leaders that change the tectonic plates of history, that move them around.
One of his foreign policy advisors, Michael Thorley, said that he believed that Keating's early reading in history gave him a fundamental sort of intrinsic feel for strategy.
Churchill is about the gallant political leader that was standing up to Hitler in the 1930s.
Roosevelt is about the statesman who's pushing the European empires to decolonise in the post-war period, and he's about the liberal internationalist who's creating the United Nations.
In other words, again, something that has a role for smaller to middle powers to play, and that is a unity of its constituent parts.
The other dimension is, of course, the history that he learns and what he learns about power from Jack Lang, the former New South Wales Premier who he starts to visit very early.
You know, from about the age of 16 or 17, Keating is knocking on Lang's door in Nithdale Street near Hyde Park in Sydney and And Lange is giving him an education in power, how to get it, how to keep it, and how to use it.
At the time that Keating's meeting Jack Lange, Jack Lange is lamenting the end of the White Australia policy.
I mean, you've already hinted at this, I guess, James, but, you know, you talk about his early life here.
I mean, you don't pick up the story in December 1991 or even at his maiden speech in 1970.
And, I mean, what do you find in those early years that sort of, I mean, I guess the watch story is one of them, but what do you find there that kind of points in the direction of where he lands later?
I mean, I have a great interest in the intellectual history of leaders and the worldview being developed.
So he's reading a lot very early about Churchill, about Roosevelt, about Hitler.
These are leaders that change the tectonic plates of history, that move them around.
One of his foreign policy advisors, Michael Thorley, said that he believed that Keating's early reading in history gave him a fundamental sort of intrinsic feel for strategy.
Churchill is about the gallant political leader that was standing up to Hitler in the 1930s.
Roosevelt is about the statesman who's pushing the European empires to decolonise in the post-war period, and he's about the liberal internationalist who's creating the United Nations.
In other words, again, something that has a role for smaller to middle powers to play, and that is a unity of its constituent parts.
The other dimension is, of course, the history that he learns and what he learns about power from Jack Lang, the former New South Wales Premier who he starts to visit very early.
You know, from about the age of 16 or 17, Keating is knocking on Lang's door in Nithdale Street near Hyde Park in Sydney and And Lange is giving him an education in power, how to get it, how to keep it, and how to use it.
At the time that Keating's meeting Jack Lange, Jack Lange is lamenting the end of the White Australia policy.
The rest of this transcript — segmented and speaker-labeled, so you land on the exact moment something was said
Search every transcript — by keyword, by phrase, or by meaning, across every show Radar indexes
Trends — what is surging across podcasts, measured against its own baseline
Alerts — when a name you follow appears in a newly indexed episode
No account is needed to search Radar.