‘Euphoria’ and ‘Hacks’ Say Goodbye. Plus, ‘Star City’ Takes Off.

Jun 2, 2026 · 1 hr 21 min · 11 segments

(00:00) Chris and Andy talk about the ‘Euphoria’ series finale (02:22) and the choices behind Rue’s ending. Then they discuss the finale of ‘Hacks’ (49:47) and how its ending differs from Euphoria’s much darker sendoff. Later, they break down ‘Star City’ (01:02:27), the new For All Mankind spinoff, and why it’s one of the most exciting shows they’ve seen in a while. Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Stefano Sanchez Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Order and it will come. Like today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speakers: Andy GreenwaldHostChris RyanHost

Top entities: Euphoria×39 Rue Bennett×28 Sam Levinson×10 Lexi Howard×12 Hacks×19

Opening Intro & Show Rundown0:00 – 1:20

Andy GreenwaldHost0:00

[drum music] I need support staff to clear the room.

Andy GreenwaldHost0:08

Stand up and walk, now.

Chris RyanHost0:11

Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

Chris RyanHost0:13

My name is Chris Ryan.

Chris RyanHost0:14

I am an editor at theringer.com, and joining me in the studio, yes, he asked to scrap that Colman Domingo Rolling Thunder remake, it's Aiden Greenwald.

Andy GreenwaldHost0:26

[laughs] It's absolutely the opposite.

Chris RyanHost0:27

No, it's, it's, it's all time [laughs] like-

Andy GreenwaldHost0:29

It's hot right now

Chris RyanHost0:30

... it's the hottest it could possibly be.

Andy GreenwaldHost0:31

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost0:32

Greenwald, great to see you today on The Watch podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost0:35

Mm.

Chris RyanHost0:35

We are going to talk about the conclusion of a little TV series called Euphoria, which ended last night with an hour and 45 minute series finale, as HBO has announced that that was-

Andy GreenwaldHost0:46

What-

Chris RyanHost0:46

...

Chris RyanHost0:46

the end

Andy GreenwaldHost0:46

... what a three-month journey it's been for some of us.

Chris RyanHost0:48

[laughs] Um, yeah.

Chris RyanHost0:49

And so we're gonna talk about Euphoria.

Chris RyanHost0:51

We are also gonna talk-

Andy GreenwaldHost0:52

Yeah

Chris RyanHost0:52

... about one of my favorite new shows that I have seen in a long time, Apple TV's Star City, a spinoff-

Andy GreenwaldHost0:58

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost0:58

... of For All Mankind, but something altogether different and cool to, to talk about.

Chris RyanHost1:05

There's a couple of other things, but I think Euphoria is definitely the headline.

Chris RyanHost1:08

Uh, first of all, you can hit us up, The Watch-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:10

... @spotify.com. Instagram is thewatchpod_.

Chris RyanHost1:14

You can watch us on YouTube at the ringer-tv, along with the Prestige TV podcast who went live last night to talk about Euphoria.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:20

That was wild.

German Words, Sports Memories & Weekend Banter1:20 – 2:22

Chris RyanHost1:20

I wonder if Joanna and Rob knew that that was gonna be an hour and 45 minute episode before they, they signed up-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:27

I-

Chris RyanHost1:27

... for that, but they did a great job and, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:29

Yeah

Chris RyanHost1:29

... um, they had a, some really great takes on the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:31

Do you think the Germans have a word for that feeling you get when you turn on an episode of television and see 1:45-

Chris RyanHost1:38

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:38

... looking at you?

Chris RyanHost1:38

How often do we see 1:45?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:41

I-

Chris RyanHost1:41

It's among the longer episodes of TV I can remember.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:44

I have some thoughts on that, yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:45

Uh, yeah, there is...

Chris RyanHost1:48

I wonder if there's a German word for that feeling that I had when we had to go live for Talk of the Thrones-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:53

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:54

... uh, while the Sixers were still [laughs] playing the Raptors in 2019.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:59

Oh, I didn't have to do that.

Chris RyanHost2:00

I did, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:01

Wow.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:01

What was the word, do you think?

Chris RyanHost2:03

Shite.

Chris RyanHost2:04

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost2:04

[laughs] That's bad, man.

Chris RyanHost2:06

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:07

That's bad.

Chris RyanHost2:07

Okay.

Chris RyanHost2:08

And then, you know, we might t- touch on, like, the end of Hacks and, like, what, where HBO is at right now.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:13

You're taking me on a journey today.

Chris RyanHost2:14

I am.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:15

I love it.

Chris RyanHost2:15

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:16

How was your...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:16

You have anything else for your weekend? Anything you wanna-

Chris RyanHost2:17

No, like, we could do, we can do that for Watch After Dark.

Chris RyanHost2:20

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:20

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:20

We're gonna get right into it.

Chris RyanHost2:21

Yes.

Setting Up the Euphoria Finale Discussion2:22 – 3:18

Chris RyanHost2:22

Uh, let's talk about how we felt about this finale.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:25

Okay.

Chris RyanHost2:25

I guess I'm gonna start here because you had the more unique viewing experience, these being the only, uh, eight episodes-

Andy GreenwaldHost2:33

Yes

Chris RyanHost2:33

... of Euphoria that you've ever seen.

Chris RyanHost2:35

Did you leave the finale satisfied?

Andy GreenwaldHost2:39

I found this hour and 45 minutes to be a relatively perfect encapsulation of my three-month journey in that I found it, by...

Andy GreenwaldHost2:48

I won't say exactly equal turns, but certainly some in each camp.

Andy GreenwaldHost2:53

I found it exhilarating, hilarious, outrageous, ridiculous, frustrating, bordling, bordering on infuriating.

Chris RyanHost3:02

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:02

That was my journey this year.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:04

Before we get into the specifics of that, I think it's important, if you don't mind, I think we could just go right at the main story here.

Chris RyanHost3:10

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:10

Which-

Chris RyanHost3:10

And for people who are just taking a little dance with us here, this is gonna spoil, uh, the, the final episode, and thus the season of Euphoria.

Deep Dive: Euphoria Series Finale Analysis3:18 – 49:45

Andy GreenwaldHost3:18

And thus the series.

Chris RyanHost3:19

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:19

Which has now been confirmed.

Andy GreenwaldHost3:20

Um, I thought that the almost...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:28

It's certainly tragic, and the almost undersold death of Rue was artful and deeply upsetting-

Chris RyanHost3:39

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost3:40

...

Andy GreenwaldHost3:40

in ways that really highlight the fact that even in my limited engagement with the show, it was very clear that the heartbeat, certainly no pun intended, of the series is Sam Levinson's relationship to addiction and to his particular worldview on the scourge of drug addiction in contemporary American society.

Chris RyanHost4:02

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:02

And for it ultimately to take the form of this, like, beautiful, radiant, charismatic, surprising, hilarious, life-seeking protagonist, for her to go out with not even, like, what we've come to experience in media, hopefully, although p- potentially in our actual lives, of, uh, OD'ing and coming back and struggling.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:26

But just the automatic existence life switch that is fentanyl-

Chris RyanHost4:31

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost4:31

... was a gut punch, but I also thought that was really, really, um...

Andy GreenwaldHost4:36

I thought it was a powerful use of his medium to communicate what this drug does, you know? And then it built on...

Andy GreenwaldHost4:41

And by building on that, it had the almost Landman-esque Ali, uh, explanation of what happened and what's happening in America during what appears to be his last, uh-

Chris RyanHost4:51

Very much his last-

Andy GreenwaldHost4:52

His last-

Chris RyanHost4:53

... his last AA meeting, yes

Andy GreenwaldHost4:53

... meeting.

Chris RyanHost4:54

NA, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:55

Um, and we can talk about that.

Andy GreenwaldHost4:56

I, and I, and I have a lot to say [laughs] about the Colman Domingo thing, but, but, but I, I really wanna hear your thoughts on the extinguishing of a character that has meant a lot to you and to the series.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:03

But I found, and we can talk about the artfulness or however you found it to be, of the dual, uh, the, the, the choose your own adventure morning, that we see a fantasy morning and that then spins out quite clearly into a, a last moment's death nightmare.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:17

But, like, I, I did find that if you just scoop that out, I found that effective, but also I found that was a moment when, as an audience member, I felt very in tune with what I believe the creator to be intending.

Chris RyanHost5:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost5:31

I, I don't think that I necessarily expected it just because, um, it ultimately, I felt, I thought it, Euphoria was, was, was rounding into being Rue's story.

Andy GreenwaldHost5:43

Yes.

Chris RyanHost5:43

You know? And I guess it was.

Chris RyanHost5:45

And also, I, this is sorta silly, but, like, [laughs] I was watching Bill's Instagram over the weekend and, and his daughter Zoe had, had a good point on one of his walk and talks-

Andy GreenwaldHost5:55

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost5:55

... where she was like, "Well, Rue's the narrator."

Andy GreenwaldHost5:57

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost5:57

"So how would you, how would you break that-"... that sort of level of storytelling if-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:03

Yeah

Chris RyanHost6:03

... all of this is being discussed by Rue in some sort of kind of omniscience.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:08

There, there is a cinematic tradition of posthumous narrators.

Chris RyanHost6:10

Yes.

Chris RyanHost6:11

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost6:11

I mean, she, she doesn't quite h- achieve Sunset Boulevard here, but yeah, there is some of that.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:17

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost6:17

Um, I was deeply moved by it.

Chris RyanHost6:19

Uh, I think that, uh, there are other shows that would've broadcast her death much more clearly in so much as there would be, like, a, a sacrifice that she needed to make, whether it was for Ali, whether it was for one of her friends, for Jules, whether it was to do the last good thing that she could do.

Andy GreenwaldHost6:43

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost6:43

And in her fantasy and in her imagination, I think she is doing that.

Chris RyanHost6:46

She's coming through-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:47

Yes

Chris RyanHost6:48

... for Fez, who came through for her.

Chris RyanHost6:51

I think the fact that the actor who played Fez, Angus Cloud, passed away, um, after a battle with addiction-

Andy GreenwaldHost6:58

But specifically, if I'm not mistaken, he, what, what ended his life was fentanyl-laced-

Chris RyanHost7:03

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost7:04

... narcotics

Chris RyanHost7:04

And Sam, uh, went on Popcast, The New York Times', uh, pop culture music podcast with Jon and Joe, and talked about, um, how...

Chris RyanHost7:14

And he has spoken at, at length about how, like, if he were using today the way, w-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:19

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost7:19

... w- in, in whatever capacity he once did, there's, in all likelihood he would be dead because there is this silver bullet and bullets out there-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:28

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost7:28

... that, like, take addicts out in this kind of, um, vengeful almost way.

Andy GreenwaldHost7:34

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost7:35

I, I just found myself, like, really al- going along on that journey, and I thought that, um, the two best actors on the show-

Andy GreenwaldHost7:45

Yeah

Chris RyanHost7:45

... got an incredible showcase.

Chris RyanHost7:48

The Rue and Ali, um, relationship was the most meaningful one to me probably of this series.

Chris RyanHost7:55

And in a lot of the ways that Rue kinda fantasizes about what she wants her last day to stand up to, which is being there for Fez, reconnecting with her family, going back home, I think that Ali's final act, which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:11

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:12

I, I, I'm eager to talk about that

Chris RyanHost8:13

... is in and of itself a fantasy.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:15

Yes.

Chris RyanHost8:15

And I think it, it...

Chris RyanHost8:16

I do think it, quote-unquote, "happens" in the world of Euphoria.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:19

Yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:20

But-

Chris RyanHost8:20

But I think that turning into Dirty Harry, Rolling Thunder, Taxi Driver-

Andy GreenwaldHost8:26

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost8:26

... and, you know, even the Rolling Thunder, which is, like, this very well-loved, uh, B movie from, from the '70s.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:34

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:34

I don't know if you can call it a B movie, but Tommy Lee Jones and William Devane.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:37

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:38

And about a returning soldier who is, you know, takes vengeance on those who take advantage of his family.

Chris RyanHost8:44

Um, that was a very knowing nod.

Chris RyanHost8:47

Sam has, uh, when he did his Euphoria Film Festival at the American Cinematheque in LA, the one that he spoke for was Dirty Harry.

Andy GreenwaldHost8:56

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost8:56

So I was like, "Oh, that's why [laughs] I guess."

Andy GreenwaldHost9:00

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:00

Um, and I think that that is probably honestly a fantasy of the people who have lost-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:06

Yes

Chris RyanHost9:06

... their children-

Andy GreenwaldHost9:07

S-

Chris RyanHost9:07

... their loved ones to fentanyl, is that someone should pay for what, what is happening.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:12

So I thought...

Andy GreenwaldHost9:12

I completely agree with you about that, and I think that the most...

Andy GreenwaldHost9:16

Sympathetic is the wrong word, but the, the, the most maybe empathetic or the most attempting to be attuned to the journey of the show and the creative process of the show take that I can give is that this entire thing, and made, really made clear this season, which is the one I watched, but you can speak to whether this hangs over the entire series.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:35

But this as a project is a personal labor of love for someone who clearly throughout his life, and not just because of his, his parentage and where he grew up, has found both escape and meaning in, in art, but specifically in cinema.

Chris RyanHost9:49

Who among us? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:50

And truly.

Chris RyanHost9:51

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost9:51

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost9:51

I mean, look what we do for a living.

Chris RyanHost9:52

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost9:52

And, um, so we did note throughout this season particularly that everything felt a little bit like kids playing dress-up.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:01

I mean, these are 23-year-olds supposedly, um, set loose in this, you know, sinful, um, uh, hellscape-

Chris RyanHost10:09

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost10:09

... of modern Los Angeles.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:11

And sometimes it, it struck me as very discordant and, like the other day when I called it, like, you know, uh, Bugsy Malone, um, in stilettos.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:20

And other times you could sort of understand what the fantasy was doing for these characters.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:25

So my, my most generous interpretation of the end, without getting into dismissing it as just, like, sub-Tarantino, um, almost pastiche schlock, was that-

Chris RyanHost10:38

The Alamo stuff

Andy GreenwaldHost10:38

... yeah.

Chris RyanHost10:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:39

Which wa- which c- always it kind of was, is that the entire season is a referendum on the fact that in 2026 or whenever the show is set, most addicts-

Chris RyanHost10:49

2024

Andy GreenwaldHost10:50

...

Andy GreenwaldHost10:50

most addicts-

Chris RyanHost10:50

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost10:50

... do not get second chances.

Andy GreenwaldHost10:53

And so Rue's embrace of religion, Rue's embrace of a new life, Rue's constant just miss, being missed by shotgun shells-

Chris RyanHost11:01

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost11:01

... like her constant near misses, are not actually a hero story.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:04

These are just the last moments of thrashing in the net that's already caught you.

Chris RyanHost11:08

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:08

And that, um, if you look at where she was, she hadn't made it very far at all.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:12

I mean, she was sort of toggling between these two almost, um, obscenely cartoonish extremes of violence, with the Nazis and then the, the cowboy gangsters at the strip club.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:24

And all of that being said, what happens in the last 30 minutes or 40 minutes of the show is a character who, you know, on Thursday I was saying I wish there was a spinoff that was just Ali doing his work.

Chris RyanHost11:36

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:37

That this character...

Andy GreenwaldHost11:39

Slow show.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:39

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost11:40

Well, depends.

Chris RyanHost11:41

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost11:41

In a commercial...

Andy GreenwaldHost11:41

Well, was a thing, his previous one.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:43

That his saying that Rue being the, the, the last straw for him.

Chris RyanHost11:47

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:48

And him s- immediately then take, picking up a drink, quitting meetings, sawing off a shotgun, and doing what he does.

Andy GreenwaldHost11:55

That it was in some ways, like, giving this character, who has lost so much and has b- been burdened by so much, the grace to also lose himself in cinema, where he becomes Dirty Harry-

Chris RyanHost12:06

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost12:06

... and he can do something on screen that no one in the messy, complicated real world can do, which is shoot addiction in the head until it explodes like a B character on The Boys.

Chris RyanHost12:17

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:17

Mm-hmm.That I think, as I'm, as I'm pitching you on that, Sharks, like do you buy that emotionally? Does that make sense to you? I'm not saying that it, I, it worked for me, but I found that ar- I find that argument that has come into my head more compelling.

Chris RyanHost12:34

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost12:34

You know what's funny is that I think that you, when we intellectually, like, get into, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:42

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost12:42

...

Chris RyanHost12:42

the project here-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:42

Chris RyanHost12:43

... and what, what this fi- So your description of that-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:46

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost12:46

... second half of the episode, and I'm ex- Uh, let's put aside the searcher's prayer coda.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:54

I, I, I-

Chris RyanHost12:54

Because-

Andy GreenwaldHost12:54

Well, bring it back.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:55

I do wanna talk about that.

Chris RyanHost12:56

That, that...

Chris RyanHost12:57

Well, I found that incredibly moving.

Andy GreenwaldHost12:59

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost12:59

Um, the bar, the, the silver slippers sequence with Ali and Alamo I think is like, it's one thing in, in, i- in, when you describe it-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:11

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost13:12

... or when you talk about, like, "This is the best possible version of it." And I think the, one of the things that was difficult about this entire season is that I can tell you that, but, uh, it's also got, like, eight Brazilian butt lift jokes.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:26

It sure does.

Chris RyanHost13:26

And a s- like a r- a runner with a white dog, and, uh, you know, a kind of-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:33

And Matty

Chris RyanHost13:33

... hat on a hat with Matty being there as well.

Chris RyanHost13:35

But-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:35

And Super Bowl MVP Marshawn Lynch getting his dick shot off.

Chris RyanHost13:38

Yes, which he was very disappointed not to actually do that stunt, as I learned from the after-

Andy GreenwaldHost13:42

Chris RyanHost13:42

... after show.

Chris RyanHost13:44

Um [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost13:45

Did you stick around for that?

Chris RyanHost13:46

I did, [laughs] yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:46

That's nice.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:47

You do the work.

Chris RyanHost13:48

Well, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting, uh...

Chris RyanHost13:50

What was the one that we just, like, I missed the credit sequence of?

Andy GreenwaldHost13:54

Oh, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:54

You hadn't even seen it.

Andy GreenwaldHost13:55

Uh, it was the, uh-

Chris RyanHost13:56

The pit

Andy GreenwaldHost13:56

...

Andy GreenwaldHost13:57

the pit.

Chris RyanHost13:57

The pit.

Chris RyanHost13:57

Um, it's one thing to describe it, and then it's another thing to experience it.

Chris RyanHost14:01

And I think that-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:02

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost14:02

... during that, it is set in a strip club, and I get it, but, like, there are elements of it that I think are distracting it from its pure power, you know? And that, that, the-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:12

Yeah

Chris RyanHost14:13

...

Chris RyanHost14:13

it, it, it kind of-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:14

It-

Chris RyanHost14:14

... diminished the impact that I think it could have had.

Chris RyanHost14:17

There's also just, like, storytelling stuff-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:19

Yes

Chris RyanHost14:20

... that I don't think he took care of.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:22

Yes.

Chris RyanHost14:22

I don't think he properly set up Bishop turning on Alamo.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:25

That was not set up.

Chris RyanHost14:26

I don't think that it's clear w- w- what Rue's friends know about Rue's death.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:34

Or what it means to them.

Chris RyanHost14:35

And whether, like, Matty ever puts together-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:38

That it was her

Chris RyanHost14:39

... "I told Alamo that Rue was a-

Andy GreenwaldHost14:42

I-

Chris RyanHost14:42

...

Chris RyanHost14:42

DEA informant, and then days later she's dead."

Andy GreenwaldHost14:45

I, I, I will jump on one thing with that, and I don't know why I ca-

Chris RyanHost14:48

Well, I guess everybody is just assuming that Rue overdosed.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:50

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:50

I mean, I'm not-

Chris RyanHost14:50

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost14:50

...

Andy GreenwaldHost14:50

I don't wanna carry too much water for this because I think that ultimately for me, as a [laughs] storytelling mechanism in an episode of television, it failed.

Chris RyanHost14:58

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost14:59

I was...

Andy GreenwaldHost15:00

But as we've agreed, like we, we were moved by, and I think I deeply respect the decision to handle the end of the main character the way he handled it.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:09

And I think that there's an interesting conversation to be had, and we'll continue to have it, about whether it is, uh, illuminating or ultimately kind of simplistic to have both a director, a creator, and characters lose themselves in the extremity and artifice of cinema as opposed to actually staying in the uncomfortable place-

Chris RyanHost15:25

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost15:25

... that the show flirted with.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:27

But I will say that I th- the way that...

Andy GreenwaldHost15:29

So like the wa- and the entire way the season came together, again, we're gonna choose to use the high-minded version of it, which was this was all a vision as opposed to, man, this was what he could string together considering the cast availabilities-

Chris RyanHost15:40

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost15:40

... and all the budgetary stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:41

Not budgetary stuff meaning, like, he didn't have enough money, but, like, what it would cost to mount X, Y, or Z thing.

Chris RyanHost15:45

Well, I just-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:46

But-

Chris RyanHost15:46

...

Chris RyanHost15:46

I just don't know whether-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:47

We don't

Chris RyanHost15:47

...

Chris RyanHost15:47

Hunter Schafer was a-

Andy GreenwaldHost15:49

Yes

Chris RyanHost15:49

... available.

Andy GreenwaldHost15:49

Exactly.

Chris RyanHost15:49

You know what I mean?

Andy GreenwaldHost15:50

So-

Chris RyanHost15:50

It doesn't seem like it

Andy GreenwaldHost15:51

... what, what I mean is if you look at it that way, you can...

Andy GreenwaldHost15:54

There's a, there's a positive spin and there's a negative spin, and when you, of course, listen to Sam Levinson talk, it all seems like the vision came together.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:01

I find that hard to believe because Rue is the main character of the show, and yet kind of haunted the show in a weird way in the margins, existed in a different show, and never really crossed paths with anyone else to leave a meaningful mark emotionally that landed on other characters, which is a hallmark of serialized television.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:16

That said, you could say, and maybe he said in interviews that I haven't seen yet, that was always the point.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:22

Because Rue is the main character, and when she shows up to Maude Apatow...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:25

What's her name?

Chris RyanHost16:26

Lexi.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:26

Maude Ap- Lexi's house, you know, and is sort of going on and on about the DEA, f- from Lexi's perspective-

Chris RyanHost16:32

Just a crazy girl in her home

Andy GreenwaldHost16:32

...

Andy GreenwaldHost16:32

this is someone she knew four or five years ago-

Chris RyanHost16:34

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost16:34

... who she opens the door to, but then doesn't think about in the intervening weeks and months.

Chris RyanHost16:38

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:38

So when you hear about it, it is, like you said, it's like a, "That's a bummer, but in a way I've mourned her already."

Chris RyanHost16:44

Yes.

Chris RyanHost16:45

And I think that when Lexi and Matty are, uh, talking about Rue, or when...

Chris RyanHost16:52

I can't remember if it's Lexi or Cassie talking about Rue, and Matty, not cruelly, says she was a drug addict.

Andy GreenwaldHost16:58

Yes.

Chris RyanHost16:58

You know, it, it's, I think perhaps her friend, friend group at that moment is like, "Ah, the, the phone call we were always expecting finally came."

Andy GreenwaldHost17:07

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:07

"And what a tragedy," and don't put together that in fact she probably took like one or two Percocets for the pain of her hand.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:16

I think likely one.

Chris RyanHost17:17

One, and that was-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:18

Because he made a show of taking, uh, from a different batch, of taking one and giving her one.

Chris RyanHost17:22

Yes.

Chris RyanHost17:22

Yeah, because he took the one, which was, you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:25

Not from the-

Chris RyanHost17:25

... that was probably actually...

Chris RyanHost17:26

Like, when you look back on that episode, I guess it's been, it was kind of broadcast that that's what was gonna happen to Rue.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:31

Well, also his joy of her being employee of the month and doing a great job-

Chris RyanHost17:36

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost17:36

...

Andy GreenwaldHost17:36

in the first conversation they had since he-

Chris RyanHost17:37

A bit right.

Chris RyanHost17:38

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost17:39

... yeah.

Chris RyanHost17:40

Where to go from here? I mean, I guess-

Andy GreenwaldHost17:41

Well, well, do you wanna talk...

Andy GreenwaldHost17:42

I'd, I'd like to hear your thoughts on both the, the violence, you know, just in terms of that turn for the character of Ali, but then also the turn back, in a way, of going to the homesteader stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost17:52

And I, I really wanna...

Andy GreenwaldHost17:54

I'm really curious your take on the show's almost Old Testament interest in the Old Testament, in the sense that it f- I, I cannot tell if it is skeptical, credulous, mocking, true believer, um, or if it is just what it seems to be, which is a creator, or either for his own life or thinking of his characters-... grasping on to something like you would a, a life preserver-

Chris RyanHost18:26

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost18:27

...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:27

in the middle of the ocean, in that it's like you'd never thought about a life preserver before until you were drowning.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:31

Because the wa- like, I, I thought the weakest scene by far in the episode is, um, Lexi talking-

Chris RyanHost18:39

Lexi and Cassie

Andy GreenwaldHost18:40

...

Andy GreenwaldHost18:40

I, I mean, the other thing is, I don't wanna be unkind, but, like, Zendaya and Colman Domingo and, um, my guy, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje, who plays Alamo, are exceptional actors doing exceptional work on this show, even when I don't love the material.

Andy GreenwaldHost18:55

Some of the other cast members, particularly the ones we're talking about [laughs] in this scene, are quite weak, in my opinion.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:01

And really cannot carry-

Chris RyanHost19:01

I just don't know that they had a ton to do.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:03

I-

Chris RyanHost19:03

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost19:04

... or they don't know what to make of it, and maybe they weren't given sides.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:06

They didn't know where they were in a story.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:08

But that scene where she's like, "You ever read the Bible?" was tough sledding for me.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:11

But I'm wondering how you felt about all of that.

Chris RyanHost19:13

So, uh, here's...

Chris RyanHost19:14

I'm gonna make the case for it, that the show's interest in and the characters' emerging interest in the Bible is, in and of itself, not all to- together different than Sam Levinson using these sort of pre-established, much beloved cinematic tropes and forms.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:35

Mm.

Chris RyanHost19:35

Spaghetti Westerns, B-movie vengeance thrillers.

Chris RyanHost19:39

Uh, Douglas Sirk melodramas, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:41

Hollywood pictures about Hollywood.

Chris RyanHost19:43

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost19:43

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:43

Sunset Boulevard.

Andy GreenwaldHost19:44

True

Chris RyanHost19:44

... you know, Antonioni, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:46

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost19:46

... close-ups of people's crying faces.

Chris RyanHost19:48

You know, like, these kinds of-

Andy GreenwaldHost19:50

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost19:50

... things that I think, um, as, as a, a, a, a kid who is largely raised by screens, like, I identify with the need to, like, look at real life and think about w- what movies I've seen that can explain it, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost20:06

Yeah, and to mitigate your own-

Chris RyanHost20:07

Absolutely

Andy GreenwaldHost20:08

... emotional-

Chris RyanHost20:08

And it's, like, a-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:09

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost20:09

... dissociative kind of thing, which frankly is also what drugs are about.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:13

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost20:13

Like, drugs are a way of pulling down the shade-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:17

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost20:17

... and existing in a completely different world for a while, where your brain is moving fast or slow, or is feeling no pain, or whatever it is.

Chris RyanHost20:25

So I get it.

Chris RyanHost20:27

I, uh, your mileage may vary on how you feel about Maude Apatow as a performer.

Chris RyanHost20:32

I think her reading of it as, I hate to use the Didion, "we tell ourselves stories in order to live" stuff, but that the Old Test- Testament-

Andy GreenwaldHost20:41

It's true

Chris RyanHost20:41

... is no different than Dirty Harry.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:43

All Spotify podcasts are using the Didion reference-

Chris RyanHost20:46

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost20:46

... way too much.

Chris RyanHost20:47

That the, the Old Testament i- is no different than Dirty Harry.

Chris RyanHost20:52

It's a story you tell yourself to, like, understand why bad things happen to people you love.

Andy GreenwaldHost20:57

Yes, and that, yeah, that, that s- sex, betrayal, and violence-

Chris RyanHost21:02

Goes all the way back

Andy GreenwaldHost21:02

... all the way back.

Chris RyanHost21:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:04

And-

Chris RyanHost21:04

When they be begetting st- people left and right back then.

Chris RyanHost21:07

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:07

Begets? Bring your begets to the...

Andy GreenwaldHost21:11

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:12

I, um-

Chris RyanHost21:12

The idea of, like, Lexi just being like, "Man, these guys are just begetting left and right." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost21:16

This is great.

Chris RyanHost21:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:18

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:18

I, this is why I think I have more tenderness towards this, like, completely unwieldy, impossible finale than, [laughs] than I expected-

Chris RyanHost21:29

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost21:29

... or maybe anyone listening expected, is because it...

Andy GreenwaldHost21:33

I, I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:33

I, I, I felt all, all any of us are doing is trying to tell ourselves a story to keep the, the scaries away, to get to, to get rid of the anxiety-

Chris RyanHost21:43

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost21:43

... or to mitigate the anxiety or delay the anxiety, and he is reaching for primal stuff, the most primal h- human stuff when he brings the Bible into it.

Andy GreenwaldHost21:53

Um, there was a feeling of just, like, the, the, the Texas family as the, "Wait, this is really what Rue wants? This isn't a bit?" And then, no, these people are her heaven-

Chris RyanHost22:06

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost22:06

...

Andy GreenwaldHost22:06

in a way, um, was confounding.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:09

Because there...

Andy GreenwaldHost22:09

it was a level of sincerity that, in my limited engagement with this show, felt quite surprising and untrustworthy.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:19

It was revealed to be quite trustworthy at the end.

Chris RyanHost22:22

Right.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:22

Um, and interestingly, where Ali is, at this point, he's Martin again, and he, as he said earlier in the episode, he's been a Christian, he's been a Muslim, he's been a drinker.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:31

He's, you know, he's been almost everything.

Chris RyanHost22:33

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:33

And it's almost as if the horror of everything that he's seen and done has scoured him clean, and he arrives, you know, like a, like a, a pilgrim, basically, to this nothing desert place, and he is not ostensibly religious.

Andy GreenwaldHost22:48

But then when he says grace, and he's with this family, and they're holding hands, and he sees Rue, he's a believer again in something.

Chris RyanHost22:55

Yes.

Chris RyanHost22:55

I thought that that was the most effective use of a cinematic reference point that this episode had for me, which was framing Ali as Ethan from The Searchers multiple times-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:10

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost23:10

... as the outsider who can't come in to this domesticated-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:15

The way he's dressed, yeah

Chris RyanHost23:15

... um, peace palace, essentially.

Chris RyanHost23:18

You know? And it, and, and I thought he very knowingly was doing that framing.

Chris RyanHost23:23

And then to have...

Chris RyanHost23:26

You get the, the last image of him outside of the barn, um, and the little girl comes up to him and is like, "That's actually essentially Rue's spirit reborn-

Andy GreenwaldHost23:35

Chris RyanHost23:36

... three months ago, and it's a miracle that this cow had a baby, but here it is."

Andy GreenwaldHost23:40

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost23:41

Bringing him in.

Chris RyanHost23:42

And then, you know, uh, this show's relationship to religion and what religion can and does mean to people, I think sometimes is fast and loose.

Chris RyanHost23:53

I also am not a religious person, so it's not really, like, my place to speak on what it means to the characters when I don't really have-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:01

No, but-

Chris RyanHost24:01

... a spiritual life, so to speak.

Chris RyanHost24:03

But there is something very, if you listen to the words, and if the moment is right, there is something very calming and peaceful about prayer, you know? And especially that-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:15

Yes

Chris RyanHost24:15

...

Chris RyanHost24:16

the grace that they say at that table.

Chris RyanHost24:17

And, like, that to me was like, this is the baseline.

Chris RyanHost24:21

This is what all humans should hope to strive to achieve.

Chris RyanHost24:26

And even though those, I believe, if I remember correctly, like, those people had some pretty-...

Chris RyanHost24:31

some political opinions maybe that I don't [laughs] agree with, you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost24:34

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost24:34

... earlier in the season.

Chris RyanHost24:35

But the idea that it's like, you know, w- we basically remember the dead.

Chris RyanHost24:42

May their memory be a blessing.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:43

Well, that specifically, I... made me st- sit up a little bit.

Chris RyanHost24:46

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:46

Because that is, uh...

Andy GreenwaldHost24:47

Traditionally, that's a Jewish saying when people pass away.

Andy GreenwaldHost24:51

And I, I appreciated in that moment that if we were talking about-

Chris RyanHost24:54

Doop.

Chris RyanHost24:54

Got 'em.

Chris RyanHost24:55

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost24:56

Finally, some representation in Hollywood.

Chris RyanHost24:58

Yes.

Chris RyanHost24:59

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost24:59

Um, no, but that like, Martin at this point is a, a pilgrim who has moved through everything.

Chris RyanHost25:06

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:06

And when he's praying at that moment, I took that to mean he is now forming a collection of things that are meaningful to him.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:14

I also can't help but, you know, think that Sam Levinson put that in, because the Levinson family probably has said that when they have lost people in their lives.

Chris RyanHost25:21

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:22

And, um, I found that moving.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:24

I found that, like, interesting and expansive in its engagement with religion.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:28

And, and, you know, I, I think there's a secondary step here that, that maybe the story of Euphoria is that Rue wasn't able t- because of her addiction, because of her illness, was not able to achieve.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:38

But, like, prayer and religion, this is maybe just getting older, I think become... has become more interesting to me too, both because of the ability to, like, um, connect to anything bigger than yourself-

Chris RyanHost25:50

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost25:50

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost25:50

... and get out of your own head.

Andy GreenwaldHost25:51

But also, that, like, so much of what we talk about, and not just us in Los Angeles, but I think there's, like, a secular religion that is getting better about telling people to practice gratitude, you know? Which is essentially saying a prayer, it's just maybe not to anybody.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:06

And that there is a cert- and actually certainly in Los Angeles [laughs] there is a very strong spine of that type of belief out there.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:15

And the fact that the show, up until the very end maybe, existed in a much more Old Testament binary, heaven and hell, but you've never gonna, you're never gonna see heaven, was holding it back in a way.

Chris RyanHost26:27

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:27

Like, I, I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:28

I think that I'm, I'm engaged with this finale, and we...

Andy GreenwaldHost26:31

There's plenty that I didn't like, and we could get into it if we wanted to.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:34

But I'm much more engaged with it, and this is a me thing, not a Euphoria thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:37

But there were aspects of this season that really rubbed me the wrong way and activated me in a way that only things that I find to be spectacle-driven or cynical do.

Andy GreenwaldHost26:50

And there was a sincerity to the main thrust of this episode and to the, the grace of the w- it was handled despite this silver slipper thing, that makes me feel...

Andy GreenwaldHost26:59

Look, whatever you say about this show and about this guy, and whatever he does next, and whether you make me watch it on the podcast or not, he believes it.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:08

You know what I mean?

Chris RyanHost27:08

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:08

Like, there is no lack of courage of convictions here.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:11

So I wanna be...

Andy GreenwaldHost27:13

That's al- another reason why I don't...

Andy GreenwaldHost27:14

I'm trying not to be as reactive as I normally might be to things that drive me insane.

Chris RyanHost27:19

Yeah, and I also...

Chris RyanHost27:20

I think I have gone back and forth where I was like, uh, you know, in the beginning of the season I was like, the th- my, my selling point on Euphoria is it's never boring.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:28

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost27:28

And-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:29

The first episode got me because it was, like, the shot of her teetering on the wall.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:32

Like, that was cinema.

Chris RyanHost27:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:33

That was awesome.

Chris RyanHost27:34

And there, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:35

Like, cool

Chris RyanHost27:35

... that can be damning praise, because that can't be the only thing that art does, is-

Andy GreenwaldHost27:41

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost27:41

... stimulate some, you know, some frontal lobe stuff for you.

Andy GreenwaldHost27:45

The way, the way drugs do?

Chris RyanHost27:46

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost27:46

Yes.

Chris RyanHost27:47

But I didn't think that this episode was boring.

Chris RyanHost27:52

I thought it would be...

Chris RyanHost27:54

It was able to do things where you were like, "Oh, of course.

Chris RyanHost27:57

Of course this is what had to happen."

Andy GreenwaldHost27:58

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost27:59

But also be like, "I had no idea that this was going to happen." Like, in the back of my mind, I was like, Ali's gonna try and save her-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:08

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost28:08

...

Chris RyanHost28:08

in a shootout of some kind, and his sacrifice-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:12

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost28:12

... is what finally sends her down the right path, or something like that.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:15

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost28:15

And I should've thought more about, um, the fact that they had kept the Fezco character canonically alive on the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:22

Yes.

Chris RyanHost28:22

I should have thought about the, the sort of plot that they had kept going with him about escaping and the, this...

Chris RyanHost28:29

That that moment when she's woken up-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:31

Yeah

Chris RyanHost28:32

... and he doesn't see the pill bottle that is right in front of her, and they're talking about this escape and she goes running out the door, that that, that wasn't real.

Chris RyanHost28:40

And that when she-

Andy GreenwaldHost28:41

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost28:41

... starts seeing images from her own childhood, that that was obviously the last moments of her life.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:46

The, the, the, the inclusion, we sort of glided past it, but the inclusion of Fez, a character I have never seen-

Chris RyanHost28:51

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost28:51

... was, I thought that was really remarkably done.

Andy GreenwaldHost28:54

And, um, and again, a sign of my complicated relationship to the show, where when it says, like, "Escaped, inmate escapes via parkour," and I was like-

Chris RyanHost29:07

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost29:07

...

Andy GreenwaldHost29:07

this show will do anything to perpetuate itself.

Chris RyanHost29:10

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:10

When in fact, what it will do, and again in that moment, like, there have been, there have been, in the history of television, there have been, sadly, multiple tragedies where cast members have passed away or have, for whatever reason, been unable to continue on with a show, or the show has continued on without them.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:25

And the show tries to build that into the show world with very mixed results, and I thought this was one of the most touching and human ways that I've ever seen it done.

Chris RyanHost29:35

You could see it was, like, a very personal-

Andy GreenwaldHost29:37

It-

Chris RyanHost29:38

... story to him.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:38

It may-

Chris RyanHost29:39

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost29:39

...

Andy GreenwaldHost29:39

The show, that was the, that was canonical, I guess is what I mean to say.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:43

What happened to Angus Cloud is the story of the show.

Chris RyanHost29:47

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:47

And I, you know, and Sam Levinson has said in interviews that, like, it changed his idea of what the ending was going to be.

Chris RyanHost29:53

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost29:54

So I thought that that was a pretty powerful tribute.

Chris RyanHost29:56

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost29:57

And then, I, I mean, just to put a bow on the ending, I thought, you know, in, in The Searchers, the John Wayne character cannot come back inside after what he's done.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:06

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost30:07

Like, he is, um, kept outdoors and in the wild as America starts to build, um, like, its, it, community and its towns, and its, its sense of, like, society.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:23

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost30:23

Like, guys like that get left behind.

Andy GreenwaldHost30:25

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost30:25

So to have this end with Ali being brought inside to the dinner table, I thought was a striking difference in...

Chris RyanHost30:34

It's an inversion of what, like, the imagery suggested initially.

Chris RyanHost30:38

And, and it takes a-

Andy GreenwaldHost30:40

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost30:40

...

Chris RyanHost30:40

it takes a reference point and says, like, "My thing is, is like this." I, I loved that.

Chris RyanHost30:45

I, the, the season ended, um-I, I think I've, I have seen some, some discourse about the, the last shot of the American flag billowing and being like that this was somehow like MAGA-coded, or that, like, the end of the ep- you know, that the end of the episode was, like, overly conservative.

Chris RyanHost31:04

It's not what I got from it.

Chris RyanHost31:06

You know, I did not...

Chris RyanHost31:07

That, you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost31:08

Yeah, I, to me, the, the flag is commenting on the transformation.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:13

There is a...

Andy GreenwaldHost31:14

If there is any optimism, and it's certainly, um, streaked with grime, but if there's any optimism in the worldview of this show, it is that transformation is perpetually possible.

Chris RyanHost31:29

In both directions.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:29

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:30

I'm interested in his sense of like, can people change? Because the Nate storyline, again, if we're gonna consider this to be a season of television, we need to bring in everything.

Chris RyanHost31:39

Yeah, we need to talk about all of this stuff.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:40

And, and, and so if you consider that storyline, I think the, the message was no.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:44

Like, people's demons, if they are evil, in the sen- in the, again, in the binary sense that Ali says in this episode, that you're either helping the world or hurting it, then you cannot change, no matter how much you dress up, or no matter how much good you intend to do with your senior center or whatever.

Andy GreenwaldHost31:59

But, you know, whether you are, um, an, an, an addict like Ali, or you are a, um, you know, an, an OnlyFans model, you can change your presentation.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:11

You can transform quite easily, and not just be accepted, but in the most American form of reward, you can get paid for it.

Chris RyanHost32:17

Yeah, and I also think the dark side of that is that when you're a kid, um, th- the world feels more like, even if you're...

Chris RyanHost32:26

No, no matter what, I think, economic strata you come from, the world feels like a playground to some extent.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:31

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost32:31

Like, you don't make a distinction between, um, work and play.

Chris RyanHost32:36

Like, it's just existence, you know? Until-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:38

Everything is a hustle.

Chris RyanHost32:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost32:39

Until, uh, homework starts getting due, and then [laughs] some of us rise to the occasion and some of us don't.

Andy GreenwaldHost32:45

Do you wanna-

Chris RyanHost32:45

At this table.

Chris RyanHost32:46

[laughs] Um, but as you get older, I think you still use the tools of your childhood to give your life shape-

Andy GreenwaldHost32:56

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost32:56

... and to give your life meaning.

Chris RyanHost32:57

And another charitable way I could sort of understand Cassie, Lexi, Maddy is, you know, you talked about them playing dress-up.

Chris RyanHost33:06

You talked about it being like Bugsy Malone.

Chris RyanHost33:08

I think that you could make the argument that that's what life is, is-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:12

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:12

Fake it till you make it.

Chris RyanHost33:13

You basically are doing, like, this mimicry.

Chris RyanHost33:15

You are doing, like, um, I guess what I have to do is take the things that come naturally to me-

Andy GreenwaldHost33:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost33:21

... and see if I can make any money off of them.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:22

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost33:22

And for Lexi, it's telling stories, and for Cassie, it's taking pictures, and for Maddy, it's shaping those pictures and shaping, like, the way people perceive women.

Chris RyanHost33:33

Um, and for Nate, it was real estate, you know? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost33:36

It sure was.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:38

It, it was.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:38

If only for those zoning boards.

Chris RyanHost33:39

And the zoning boards killed him in the end.

Andy GreenwaldHost33:41

Who do you think he's voting for in the mayoral election? I think I know.

Chris RyanHost33:44

Uh, I don't...

Chris RyanHost33:44

I mean, if he votes, we're gonna have some, some controversies.

Chris RyanHost33:47

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost33:47

Great point.

Chris RyanHost33:48

You know? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost33:49

Great point.

Chris RyanHost33:50

Um, we could talk a little bit about some of the other plotlines.

Chris RyanHost33:53

I think, uh, it's really worth noting that Hunter Schafer does not speak in this episode.

Chris RyanHost33:58

I think you could make...

Chris RyanHost33:59

Look at that and be like, it is a beautiful final moment-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:01

Chris RyanHost34:01

... of wordless communion between two characters who loved one another very deeply in, in, in Jules and, and Rue.

Chris RyanHost34:11

Uh, you could also say Jules' last words to Rue were kind of like, "This isn't gonna happen."

Andy GreenwaldHost34:17

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost34:17

"So let's knock this fantasy shit off.

Chris RyanHost34:19

Like, I'm here.

Chris RyanHost34:21

This really works for me."

Andy GreenwaldHost34:22

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost34:22

"I'm happy," quote-unquote.

Chris RyanHost34:25

Um, what did you think of, uh, her Medusa painting?

Andy GreenwaldHost34:29

I am not really...

Andy GreenwaldHost34:31

I don't feel qualified to comment on the character or the storyline, because the character didn't really exist this season and didn't really have a storyline.

Chris RyanHost34:37

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:38

So the, my response to it-

Chris RyanHost34:39

I believe one scene with any other characters besides Ellis the plastic surgeon and, and Rue.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:44

Well, there was the wedding.

Chris RyanHost34:45

That's what I mean.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:45

Yeah, that scene.

Chris RyanHost34:45

The one scene.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:46

Yeah, exactly.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:47

Um-

Chris RyanHost34:47

And it was my favorite scene between, uh, any non-Zendaya characters, was the Nate and Jules-

Andy GreenwaldHost34:54

Oh, yeah

Chris RyanHost34:54

... conversation on the cigarette.

Andy GreenwaldHost34:55

Which again, I think was the, in many ways, one of the most TV scenes, in that it paid off something that had-

Chris RyanHost35:01

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost35:01

... uh, occurred over multiple seasons.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:03

Uh, so I, I don't feel qualified to comment on the performer, the performance, the character really, other than to say I am not a fan of f- fictional painters expressing their emotion through paintings, because inevitably they're not going to...

Andy GreenwaldHost35:20

I don't think you're g- I, I don't know if they're gonna get the effect that you wish y- you would, could get from them.

Chris RyanHost35:26

She...

Chris RyanHost35:27

They, they probably should not have shown the painting.

Chris RyanHost35:28

Sure.

Chris RyanHost35:29

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:29

The, the, the painting seemed sort of silly to me, as did the sort of, like, this is the, the sort of self-

Chris RyanHost35:35

Can you imagine if Ellis was like, "What the fuck is that?" [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost35:37

"What are you doing?" But like, sort of like the, the, the, the cho- like it's, there's more power in the silence and the expression of art, and the painting was like, you were serious about that?

Chris RyanHost35:45

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:45

Like, that, I, I didn't get that, and it felt...

Andy GreenwaldHost35:49

I mean, this is, this is the thing that I think is ultimately certainly a challenge for me, and I would imagine whether it's, you know, on, on your dial it's more or less, or maybe it's not articulated.

Andy GreenwaldHost35:58

But, like, I think one of the real challenges of the season, and I guess it was an unavoidable one, is that it is ultimately a tweener.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:06

It was neither here nor there.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:08

It was neither committed to being a full-throated continuation of a serialized television show that had a lot of character and emotion equity built into it, nor was it able to fully commit to being a, what I, you know, responded to in the trailer, which is a, "Fuck you guys, this show is something different now."

Chris RyanHost36:24

I mean, I think it definitely committed to the latter.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:25

It, it committed to the latter in terms of w- w- in terms of its service to the audience.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:30

But the fact that some of these character strands were continually attended to, even limited...

Andy GreenwaldHost36:36

Like, my sen- what I'm trying to say is either do it or don't.

Chris RyanHost36:39

No, I, I completely agree with you.

Andy GreenwaldHost36:40

Like, like-

Chris RyanHost36:41

And the, the, the, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:41

I, I understand that you've...

Andy GreenwaldHost36:42

Jules is part of Euphoria-

Chris RyanHost36:43

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost36:43

... and Hunter Schafer is part of Euphoria, but there was no room for that character this season, frankly, regardless of scheduling, you know?

Chris RyanHost36:50

You know what? I was kinda, I was watching it, and you, y- you know, there have been shows that I think we either have a sense of how they were made or what sort-

Andy GreenwaldHost36:57

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost36:58

... of challenges went into making them, or, you know, we are aware of, like, scheduling mishaps or, or, or issues that plagued the show.

Chris RyanHost37:07

Um-I think the best possible version is when it comes out and it's like Exile on Main Street, and it sounds like everybody's in the room

Andy GreenwaldHost37:15

You s- you stop asking the questions.

Chris RyanHost37:16

You know what I mean?

Andy GreenwaldHost37:17

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:17

Yes, yes.

Chris RyanHost37:17

Like, it sounds like everyone's playing in a room, but in fact, it's like one guy's in France recording on an answering machine, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:22

But the art speaks for itself

Chris RyanHost37:23

...

Chris RyanHost37:23

but the art speaks for itself.

Chris RyanHost37:25

And I don't know that all t- all the time Euphoria was not Exile on Main Street.

Chris RyanHost37:31

I think that the Jules and Nate plot lines specifically-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:35

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost37:35

... felt like they took place in a different working environment than the rest of the show this season, and I think it was-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:42

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost37:42

... to its detriment.

Chris RyanHost37:43

Um, I wanna talk to you a little bit about the fact that, um, the show makes the choice not to do a bad news relay about Rue.

Andy GreenwaldHost37:53

Yes.

Chris RyanHost37:53

And not to do, which is a term we sometimes throw around on the show about-

Andy GreenwaldHost37:57

It's a Broadchurch.

Chris RyanHost37:58

It came from Broadchurch, but it's basically each character finding out the same terrible news and having a, a-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:04

An Emmy reel [laughs]

Chris RyanHost38:04

... an Emmy reel for it.

Chris RyanHost38:06

Um, I thought that was cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:08

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost38:09

I think you, like we talked about, like, you could make the argument that to Maddy and Lexi, Rue's sort of a, a crazy character from their past-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost38:21

... that is every once in a while will pop up on somebody's couch, but that this wasn't a big shock.

Chris RyanHost38:27

But Levinson kinda went through a lot of plot bullshit to get Lexi to tell Maddy-

Andy GreenwaldHost38:33

Yes

Chris RyanHost38:33

... that Rue is working for the DA.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:35

This is...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:35

Yes.

Chris RyanHost38:35

And then Maddy told Alamo, and the only real acknowledgement of that seems to be when Ali says, "I'm here for Rue," or Rue s- R- Rue Bennett sent me.

Chris RyanHost38:47

Like, they get a reaction shot from Maddy, but it's not like a, "Do you realize what happened here?"

Andy GreenwaldHost38:53

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:53

No, it doesn't land.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:54

I mean, I, I think this is...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:55

I think you're articulating an example of what I was trying to say bothered...

Andy GreenwaldHost38:58

Like, it's a tweener.

Andy GreenwaldHost38:59

It's like you're servicing-

Chris RyanHost39:02

Certain TV things

Andy GreenwaldHost39:02

... certain TV things-

Chris RyanHost39:04

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost39:04

...

Andy GreenwaldHost39:04

but then ultimately you kinda don't care about them.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:06

And I, it, it makes sense to me, and this I mean as a, truly I mean this as a compliment, why when Sam Esmail used to come on the show and he was praising Euphoria for its directorial vision and its aesthetic, um, consistency, 'cause like Sam, both Sams write and direct everything, um, you see things on this show like you did with Mr.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:25

Robot or S- or Sam Esmail's other things, that are contemptuous of some TV tropes.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:30

And it allows you to separate and make, engage with the material, and make observations like we're making about, like, well, it may have felt sudden or brutal or cruel to dispatch Rue the way that, that the show did, but the show is actually telling you something about our engagement with protagonists and how we imbue hope into them when everything about their circumstance is telling you it's hopeless, you know? That's not, that's not traditional TV.

Andy GreenwaldHost39:59

Traditional TV would walk up to that edge and then maybe, like the Hacks finale, still give you all of the, the gushing emotion that is kind of your reward for watching the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:11

Euphoria didn't do that, and it leaves us making references to The Searchers and to, to Jewish prayers, you know?

Chris RyanHost40:17

Yeah [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost40:17

Which is cool.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:19

We don't usually do that.

Andy GreenwaldHost40:20

But I think that the fact that it maybe was an ill-fitting, ill-fitting clothing this season, that it was still in the skin of a serialized television show, and most people engage with it that way, and I think they were...

Andy GreenwaldHost40:35

I th- I, my sense is that people were either quite confused or quite pissed off-

Chris RyanHost40:40

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost40:41

... by some of the storytelling choices.

Chris RyanHost40:43

Yeah, I mean, the choice not to show Rue's mother receiving the news, the choice to not have anybody else finding out about this, to see Storm Reid's characters-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:53

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost40:53

...

Chris RyanHost40:53

Rue's sister finding out about this, to-

Andy GreenwaldHost40:56

She, I mean, I think the thing-

Chris RyanHost40:57

I think that that, that feels like more like, uh...

Chris RyanHost41:01

That feels like more like something went wrong rather than a choice that was made.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:05

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:05

That said, Sam can go on a podcast and say the sh- "You're misreading the show.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:11

It is ultimately about the ways in which addicts in our lives are dead before the coroner comes."

Chris RyanHost41:18

Yes, yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:19

You can say that, and I've been carrying water for those arguments in this podcast, but it, you can't say that as a coming over the top argument ender to people who have engaged with a serialized television show with a certain set of expectations.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:35

They're not wrong.

Andy GreenwaldHost41:36

Just because you can intellectually articulate why you did something does not invalidate the emotional reaction-

Chris RyanHost41:42

Well, that's what I'm kinda trying to work through-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:43

... that audience members have

Chris RyanHost41:44

... on the, in this conversation, is like, how can I watch something that, uh, fundamentally doesn't work on so many levels-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:49

Yes

Chris RyanHost41:49

... that I still feel like it worked for me emotionally and intellectually in some ways, you know? Like, I guess it just made me think about things that I usually don't think about when I'm watching television, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost41:59

In- including what the fuck are they doing.

Chris RyanHost42:02

Y- yeah, but like-

Andy GreenwaldHost42:02

Why are they doing this?

Chris RyanHost42:03

But it made me think about addiction in, in a lot of different ways.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:06

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost42:06

And it made me think about the American West in ways that I hadn't really thought about in a while, and it made me think about, um, forgiveness and why we w- go to the movies [laughs] and all these things.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:18

I-

Chris RyanHost42:18

And I was like, "This is good, man.

Chris RyanHost42:20

Like, this is bigger than I thought it was gonna be," and it was...

Chris RyanHost42:22

It meant more to me than I thought it was gonna be.

Andy GreenwaldHost42:25

I, I also felt continually, and I'm not saying this as a negative, but, like, a, a, a writer-director in a, in a movie can have his or her one to two dozen hinge points, um, exclamation points to express, like, scenes, moments, vibes that are crucial to understanding what that vision is, and the connective tissue in 90 minutes or two hours isn't really as important as we often think it is, unless it's, you know, w- why did, why did Palpatine suddenly return? Like, if it, if it's a personal story, you don't, you don't...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:02

You shouldn't ever watch them as a redditor.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:04

You watch them being carried along by someone trying to tell you something.

Chris RyanHost43:07

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:08

And I think the, where the limitations of the auteur model are evident in a show like Euphoria are you can absolutely hang a constellation of these really bright, powerful, shining star moments that moved him and that tell the story that I think he clearly wanted to tell.The connective tissue between them was often either convoluted, ignored, underbaked-

Chris RyanHost43:29

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost43:29

Uh, straight up

Andy GreenwaldHost43:30

...

Andy GreenwaldHost43:30

it, it-

Chris RyanHost43:30

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost43:31

Like, uh, the la-

Andy GreenwaldHost43:32

And-

Chris RyanHost43:32

...

Chris RyanHost43:32

the previous episode, you finish up Laurie.

Chris RyanHost43:34

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost43:34

... no, and, and just to say, that's why people have writers' rooms.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:37

I am not saying Euphoria would be better with a writers' room.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:40

It's just irrelevant to make that point.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:42

I'm saying, and sometimes, uh, the conversation creep of a writers' room can overthink everything-

Chris RyanHost43:48

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost43:48

... until it's just mid, you know? But, like, there's a moment in this episode that surprised me in ways that I was really excited by.

Andy GreenwaldHost43:56

Like, I, I still don't understand and I never asked you why Laurie is the way she is and hangs out only with Nazis on a farm.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:02

I don't understand that.

Chris RyanHost44:03

The-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:03

But-

Chris RyanHost44:03

... her season two kinda...

Chris RyanHost44:05

Like, y- she emerges in season two as, like, I th- I believe, like, a local drug dealer-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:10

Yeah

Chris RyanHost44:10

... that Fez is working with.

Chris RyanHost44:11

I haven't rewatched season two, so some of this is just patching together memories.

Chris RyanHost44:14

But, uh, her character is more like, uh, the layer of drug culture that you experience when, like, you are getting serious, you know? Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:27

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:27

All of a sudden, this is the person behind the person.

Chris RyanHost44:29

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost44:29

And, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:30

And it-

Chris RyanHost44:30

... it's not just dime bags and eight balls.

Chris RyanHost44:32

It's like there's somebody who is like, "I'll give you this if you give me that." And, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:36

Sure

Chris RyanHost44:36

...

Chris RyanHost44:36

it, it, she...

Chris RyanHost44:37

Her and, and Alamo emerging as these two basically satanic figures-

Andy GreenwaldHost44:42

Yeah

Chris RyanHost44:42

...

Chris RyanHost44:42

in the desert, I, I think it was almost like dis- it's almost disconnected from who Laurie was in the sec- second season.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:49

All that to say that, like, the moment when the guy who rodeo ropes, uh, Rue-

Chris RyanHost44:55

Early, yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost44:56

... early in the episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost44:57

When the scene is built, because we've seen all the same movies Sam Levinson has seen, that we understand he's going to reach for his gun and go out in a blaze of glory and everything's gonna pop off.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:06

When he doesn't-

Chris RyanHost45:07

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost45:08

... worked.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:08

That was a moment of the...

Andy GreenwaldHost45:11

I, I took, I took notice of that.

Chris RyanHost45:13

Another, I...

Chris RyanHost45:14

Apparently, this show is also about the healing power of dogs.

Chris RyanHost45:17

[laughs] Like-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:17

Of animals.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:18

Yeah, exactly.

Chris RyanHost45:18

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:18

The dog told him not to do it.

Chris RyanHost45:19

Yeah, apparent- [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:20

But-

Chris RyanHost45:21

I just was like, "Okay" [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost45:22

But, like, we are also at the point with the show [laughs] where I was just like, th- that is a s- that is a decision and a statement that clearly has some significance to the creator and to the larger project, and then it goes off the rails ag- You know, she has this dramatic hanging off.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:36

Like, there's...

Andy GreenwaldHost45:37

Then it goes crazy to get to the next one of those little peg-

Chris RyanHost45:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost45:39

I mean, there's so much-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:40

... pegboard points

Chris RyanHost45:40

... fucking, like...

Chris RyanHost45:42

It's so funny 'cause we're having this kind of like c- clear eye, full hearts conversation about-

Andy GreenwaldHost45:47

Chris RyanHost45:47

...

Chris RyanHost45:47

this episode, and it, like I said, plastic surgery but Brazilian butt lift.

Andy GreenwaldHost45:52

Yes.

Chris RyanHost45:52

Laurie blows her pants out when she hangs herself.

Chris RyanHost45:56

Uh, colostomy bags, plastic surgery in Mexico.

Chris RyanHost45:59

Um, fentanyl with scorpions printed on it, and Marshawn Lynch getting into a threesome before he gets his dick blown off.

Chris RyanHost46:08

I mean, it is so, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:10

Clip that, cowards

Chris RyanHost46:11

... exploit...

Chris RyanHost46:12

It, it is exploit- ex- exploitation core, you know?

Andy GreenwaldHost46:16

It is.

Chris RyanHost46:16

And so it's funny to also be like, "Goddamn," like, [laughs] "this brought me to tears." It is funny.

Chris RyanHost46:21

It, it's, it's just like, I guess that's the high and low that he's working with.

Andy GreenwaldHost46:24

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost46:25

And it really, really, really pissed people off in some ways.

Chris RyanHost46:28

But I, even though you're the newcomer to this-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:31

Yeah

Chris RyanHost46:32

...

Chris RyanHost46:32

I just, I wasn't mad that Lexi or Nate or Cassie didn't have like three more story beats at the expense of all the Wayne-

Andy GreenwaldHost46:43

I was-

Chris RyanHost46:43

... uh, Faye and Laurie stuff

Andy GreenwaldHost46:45

... uh.

Chris RyanHost46:45

I mean, like, I don't know why he did it necessarily, or I think it could've been a little bit more evenly distributed, but...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:51

Yeah, I mean, I didn't understand what...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:53

I, but I, I also, because I didn't know, I, I couldn't...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:58

I didn't feel...

Andy GreenwaldHost46:59

I didn't wanna spend time with really any of these other stories, but I also, that's not for me to say.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:03

I'm coming in late, and maybe the, some of the scenes or some of the, the continuation of their stories was, was important-

Chris RyanHost47:09

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost47:09

... for the viewers.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:10

But I also think, like, the...

Andy GreenwaldHost47:12

I, I keep looking 'cause I never wanna get his name wrong, but Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje, if he wasn't on this show in that role, it would've been a catastrophe of historic proportions.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:22

Because the character is preposterous.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:25

Somewhat intentionally preposterous.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:27

But to go from Rue's death, to have him giving a disquisition on the power of female anatomy and the role it's played in his life, was borderline insulting-

Chris RyanHost47:38

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost47:38

... honestly, to what the show was, and a ridiculous digression, or maybe not digression, from what the character has been.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:45

And, you know, he, he came on the show like a cartoon and he went out like a cartoon, but there was an actor playing him who brought real gravitas and swagger and c- dark charisma and humanity to it, which is maybe the best we can hope for.

Andy GreenwaldHost47:59

I, I, I, I think that in a w- [laughs] like, I know this sounds crazy, but I feel like, I feel like the show got away with even more this season-

Chris RyanHost48:06

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost48:07

... by casting...

Andy GreenwaldHost48:08

And, and Darryl Britt Gibson too in that, in the part of Bishop, who, he brought some, some gravity and soul to a character that was mostly reaction shots, and then suddenly had exposition in the last 15 minutes.

Chris RyanHost48:21

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:21

You know? Uh, it, it, it got away with a lot.

Chris RyanHost48:24

Did you understand why he turned on Alamo?

Andy GreenwaldHost48:26

Uh, I think because of Maddy?

Chris RyanHost48:30

But was, did he seem particularly enamored with Maddy before this?

Andy GreenwaldHost48:35

Before she liked his dog?

Chris RyanHost48:36

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:37

You know? I-

Chris RyanHost48:37

Okay

Andy GreenwaldHost48:37

... not that I could tell.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:38

I mean, he was watching everything, and I think that there was-

Chris RyanHost48:41

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost48:41

But I thought he was mostly focused on Rue and was the one who's like, "My spidey senses are tingling."

Andy GreenwaldHost48:45

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:45

Not, "I have-"

Chris RyanHost48:46

Like, "There's something up with this person," who's now just all of the sudden-

Andy GreenwaldHost48:48

Empathy for this person.

Chris RyanHost48:49

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost48:50

Now, that's the other th- I think ultimately the reaction is one of frustration because maybe Darryl Britt Gibson will do an interview where he's like, "Oh, we shot all these scenes where, you know-

Chris RyanHost49:01

Sure

Andy GreenwaldHost49:01

...

Andy GreenwaldHost49:01

Bishop's sister died of a drug overdose and it triggered him," or whatever, and, "She's the one whose dog it was, and that's what I was playing, but we didn't show it." Or, you know, you get away with it because he's a cool-looking actor who did the fucking thing scene to scene.

Chris RyanHost49:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:16

And then you get by on, again, with the sort of surface artifice that the show can also skate by on.

Chris RyanHost49:21

[sighs]

Andy GreenwaldHost49:22

Either way, uh, we'll never know the full answer, and we have what we have.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:25

And I, maybe the best way to, to put a bow on it is we're never getting anything like this again

Chris RyanHost49:29

again[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost49:31

Like, we're never getting anything like this again.

Chris RyanHost49:32

So that's actually a pretty good segue here.

Chris RyanHost49:34

I mean, I, I hope people enjoyed our, our rather unique perspective on this series this, this season and, and y- you know-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:42

It was-

Chris RyanHost49:42

It was a fun experiment.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:43

It was a fun experiment at the beginning and end.

Shift from Euphoria to Hacks49:47 – 50:01

Chris RyanHost49:47

I'll also just mention-

Andy GreenwaldHost49:48

Chris RyanHost49:48

... that not unlike when Succession and Barry ended on the same night, I believe.

Chris RyanHost49:53

Uh, wasn't it the same night?

Andy GreenwaldHost49:55

I think that's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost49:56

I mean-

Chris RyanHost49:56

Succession

Andy GreenwaldHost49:56

... you, you were kicking around Europe at the time.

Chris RyanHost49:58

I was.

Chris RyanHost49:58

Uh, Hacks also ended this weekend.

Hacks Finale Reactions & the ‘Chewbacca’ Problem50:02 – 55:48

Chris RyanHost50:02

Um, I'm gonna just say one quick thing.

Chris RyanHost50:04

I know you didn't get a chance to see this yet, but I know you've also read about it, so I'm not spoiling anything for you.

Andy GreenwaldHost50:08

Yes.

Chris RyanHost50:08

But this will be spoilers for Hacks, which we have not discussed.

Chris RyanHost50:12

Um, it was, uh, really interesting watching this with a, an avowed fan of the show, my wife, who I think was quite moved by the ending-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost50:21

... and was like, "That was very satisfying."

Andy GreenwaldHost50:24

Mm.

Chris RyanHost50:24

And I, I kind of have come in and out, like, as Hacks has gone on, I have, like, kind of...

Chris RyanHost50:30

I'll watch an episode, maybe miss two or three, watch an episode, and feel like I'm on top of what's happening.

Chris RyanHost50:36

Um, and in, in its own way, Hacks is not unlike what happened with Euphoria, where it brings in an relatively unexpected, though somewhat broadcast, uh, plot turn where Deborah gets, um, has cancer, that her amassed has, has-

Andy GreenwaldHost50:55

Chris RyanHost50:55

... returned, and she's decided that it's going to be...

Chris RyanHost51:00

She's going to choose to have assisted suicide in Switzerland-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:03

Chris RyanHost51:03

... rather than go through treatment.

Chris RyanHost51:05

So her and Ava go on this sort of last lost weekend in Paris.

Chris RyanHost51:09

It's actually quite beautiful.

Chris RyanHost51:11

Like, you know, obviously Paris is just incredibly cinematic and filmable and-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:14

Just ran into Amanda Dobbins.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:16

She said the same thing.

Chris RyanHost51:16

I bet.

Chris RyanHost51:17

And then, you know, they're going back and forth making jokes about dying, and, uh, Deborah has the revelation that she, in fact, has more jokes to tell-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:27

Chris RyanHost51:27

... more work to do, and that that is a substitute.

Chris RyanHost51:30

That is essentially, like, standing in for she also loves the people around her-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:34

Right

Chris RyanHost51:35

... and has learned-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:35

'Cause there's always the work

Chris RyanHost51:35

... learned to be a part-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:36

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost51:36

... of a community and is gonna go and, and try, you know, um, clinical trials of, of new drugs for, for cancer.

Chris RyanHost51:44

And, you know, as I was watching it, I was feeling like I was getting a little Chewbacca'd.

Chris RyanHost51:49

Like, for s- was that-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:50

Explain that.

Chris RyanHost51:51

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost51:51

Because that is still important to us.

Andy GreenwaldHost51:53

That was...

Andy GreenwaldHost51:53

No, that was the, the truly odious Rise of Skywalker.

Chris RyanHost51:56

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost51:56

In Rise of Skywalker, there's like, you basically spend five minutes thinking Chewbacca has been blown up and-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:02

But somehow Chewbacca has returned.

Chris RyanHost52:03

But somehow Chewbacca has returned, and I got really mad on, on a podcast where I was like, "You can't manipulate people like this." Like, you prepare them for the possibility that characters, people die.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:14

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost52:14

You take them through that experience, and then-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:16

And you get-

Chris RyanHost52:17

... you tell them, "Actually, psych."

Andy GreenwaldHost52:18

And you get everything.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:20

You, you hoard...

Andy GreenwaldHost52:21

You're like a, you're like Colin Robinson on, on What We Do in the Shadows.

Chris RyanHost52:25

Energy vampire.

Chris RyanHost52:26

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:26

You're an emotion vampire.

Chris RyanHost52:27

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost52:27

You have stolen people's feelings and then said, "JK."

Chris RyanHost52:31

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost52:32

So I th- I...

Chris RyanHost52:35

It's interesting to look at the two in comparison.

Chris RyanHost52:36

In some ways, Hacks was a much more complete, satisfying, and-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:40

Chris RyanHost52:40

... watertight finale, but it do- Euphoria does what Hacks didn't do-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:46

Yes

Chris RyanHost52:46

... which is say, "Well, what if, what if what we are actually telling you is, is going to happen happened?" With-

Andy GreenwaldHost52:53

And, and-

Chris RyanHost52:54

... you know, with a main character, and how would people feel about that? I think Hacks killing Deborah would be, like, quite controversial, so I understand why they didn't do that, but it, it was interesting to see them play with stakes that were so severe-

Andy GreenwaldHost53:08

Yes

Chris RyanHost53:08

... and then decide to back off in the last minute.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:10

I cannot criticize Hacks for that decision from the perspective of someone who has just been advocating for the unspoken covenant between television creators and their audience.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:22

I think that there is, and this can be h- this can hamstring creators creatively over the long term, but I do think shows, you know I've said this before, teach you about themselves and tell you what they are-

Chris RyanHost53:33

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost53:34

...

Andy GreenwaldHost53:34

even before they've reached the precipice of choosing an ending.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:37

And the worst endings tend to be the ones that betray that core belief at the last moment in search of something extra or something else, or, or, or in this case of some creators, wanting to play a higher note than they've been allowed to play on the keyboard of their show for this many seasons.

Andy GreenwaldHost53:53

Hacks, the reason I didn't stay with Hacks is nothing to do with the, what I believe to be even from a distance, the consistent, the consistency of Hacks.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:02

People like Phoebe and the millions of other people and Emmy voters who love it are like, th- one of the reasons this show continues is because year in and year out, Deborah and Ava are delivering.

Chris RyanHost54:13

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:13

And the tone of the show is delivering, and the stakes of the show are consistent.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:16

That's really, really hard to do.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:18

What I tapped out when I realized that the show's most provocative ideas about Deborah being a monster, about show business being a gaping maw of whatever, was always going to be fixed with hugs and understanding before we run it back again.

Chris RyanHost54:34

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:35

The constant breaking up and bringing back together, while done artfully, was too much of a yo-yo for me and reminded me of the l- I mean, Mike Schur is an executive producer of Hacks, but he, he, it's not his show.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:45

You know, um, Paul Downs and, and Lucia Aniello and Jen Statsky did, did the damn thing-

Chris RyanHost54:50

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost54:51

... and ran the shit out of an enormously successful beloved show.

Andy GreenwaldHost54:54

But Mike Schur is an executive producer of it, and there's a tendency that it reminded me of ultimately that...

Andy GreenwaldHost55:00

And he's made some of my favorite shows of all time.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:02

Parks and Rec, uh, and The Good Place particularly, unimpeachable, except for the one little thing, which is what I'm trying to articulate, which is every so often the, the s- the softness and the gentleness and the schmaltziness and the optimism start to, like, overwhelm.

Chris RyanHost55:19

The TV-ness too.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:20

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost55:20

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:20

And, and that's not a sin.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:22

The shows are good because there is a, there is a Leslie Knope and there's a Ron Swanson.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:27

And when they start hugging, that's when it starts to get a little-

Chris RyanHost55:29

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:29

Anyway, so that, that, that was my interact- that, that was my reaction with the thing.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:33

But, like-My, the reason why I walked away, but when you're describing that finale to me, I think, I, I think I would've been incredibly frustrated by it, but frustrated for the same reasons I'd been frustrated for three seasons, and ultimately, that was the show.

Chris RyanHost55:47

Sure.

State of HBO & Future Slate55:49 – 1:01:49

Chris RyanHost55:49

It's also, you know, just, it's hard to watch when you're just like, The Bear is just clearly much funnier.

Chris RyanHost55:53

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost55:53

Exactly.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:54

Exactly.

Andy GreenwaldHost55:54

Where are the laughs in comparison?

Chris RyanHost55:57

Um, I was just gonna go through HBO's, like, current st- slate-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:00

Chris RyanHost56:00

... right, really quickly.

Chris RyanHost56:01

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:02

Okay

Chris RyanHost56:02

... uh, so you've got...

Chris RyanHost56:06

I would say these are the sort of ones that are, are, like, kind of, not propping up, but, like, are the flagship sort of titles for HBO right now, which is White Lotus returning, currently shooting in the south of France.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:16

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost56:16

Task, we know is coming back.

Chris RyanHost56:18

Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, um, critically, item- I believe commercially very successful new iteration of Game of Thrones.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:26

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost56:26

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:26

I, I actually was gonna reference it when we talk about Star City.

Chris RyanHost56:28

Good.

Chris RyanHost56:29

Gilded Age, The Pit, Rooster.

Chris RyanHost56:32

These are not all shows that we have love or talk about necessarily, but shows that I think are doing well for HBO and are in, in current production.

Chris RyanHost56:40

And obviously, I guess Dune: Prophecy, which, uh, with Dune 3 coming and-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:47

I was just laughing.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:47

It's like, [scoffs] I guess, obviously.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:50

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost56:50

Well, they bought it back-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:50

That's our feeling about it

Chris RyanHost56:51

... and it's a Dune show.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:52

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost56:52

So I'm kinda like-

Andy GreenwaldHost56:53

Yeah

Chris RyanHost56:53

...

Chris RyanHost56:53

it, it bears mentioning.

Chris RyanHost56:55

Then there are the shows that are winding down or ending.

Andy GreenwaldHost56:57

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost56:57

Industry, House of the Dragon, Last of Us.

Chris RyanHost57:00

Last of Us still may be on the air for a couple more years, but I think are...

Chris RyanHost57:06

They're probably, like, thinking of ways to start bringing the ship back home.

Chris RyanHost57:11

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:11

I think they said four, didn't they?

Chris RyanHost57:12

They did.

Chris RyanHost57:13

I don't, I don't know how long that's gonna take, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:15

Truly

Chris RyanHost57:16

... um, and then, you know, Half Man and DTF.

Chris RyanHost57:20

We didn't talk about Half Man.

Chris RyanHost57:21

DTF we talked about briefly, but those seem like one and dones.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:25

I, I, I'm surp- I mean, I don't know.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:27

I don't have insider knowledge on this.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:29

Um, but, and I know it, it wasn't for us, and it make, made people quite frustrated.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:33

But it does seem like DTF was a success ratings-wise and internally.

Chris RyanHost57:38

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:38

And so I d- I have no idea about their, HBO's relationship with Stephen Conrad or Stephen Conrad's desire t- to do any- But, like, you could do DTF Des Moines.

Andy GreenwaldHost57:47

Like, I, uh, that could be White Lotus.

Chris RyanHost57:49

Sure, or you could do another Stephen Conrad show, which I think is what I-

Andy GreenwaldHost57:52

Right

Chris RyanHost57:52

...

Chris RyanHost57:52

I would like to see.

Chris RyanHost57:53

Um, and then they have, uh, Lanterns and House of the Dragon on the way imminently, and Harry Potter, obviously, at, at, at Christmas time.

Chris RyanHost58:03

It's an interesting moment because, you know, like, I think we have, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:07

Do you want me to talk about if Peeves is in it?

Chris RyanHost58:08

If who?

Andy GreenwaldHost58:09

Peeves.

Chris RyanHost58:09

Who's Peeves?

Andy GreenwaldHost58:10

From Poltergeist.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:11

He wasn't in the movies.

Chris RyanHost58:12

Oh.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:13

So that's two ways you haven't ever encountered this character.

Chris RyanHost58:16

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost58:16

Go on.

Chris RyanHost58:17

Um, we've done state of HBO conversations before.

Chris RyanHost58:21

I think a lot of the slate looks very strong.

Chris RyanHost58:24

It really doesn't matter 'cause it's...

Chris RyanHost58:27

It c- it can't be repeated enough.

Chris RyanHost58:28

[laughs] They have been purchased by Paramount.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:30

You also, I think, left out the most interesting returning show on the HBO network set in Delaware County about a task force at HBO.

Chris RyanHost58:38

I said Task.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:39

Did you say Task?

Chris RyanHost58:39

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost58:40

Sorry, I was blanking out.

Chris RyanHost58:42

I'm, we're having a problem, not you and I, but, like...

Chris RyanHost58:46

You know, when I was doing the Buried Alive thing when it-

Andy GreenwaldHost58:48

Yeah, yeah

Chris RyanHost58:48

... last, last episode and I was like, "Hey, everybody.

Chris RyanHost58:50

Like, tell me who you think the best Buried Alive.

Chris RyanHost58:52

Like, mine's definitely Kill Bill." And I got 10 million emails that were just like, "Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill" And I'm like, "I know I said that."

Andy GreenwaldHost58:59

Yes.

Chris RyanHost58:59

Unless I was having a stroke and didn't say that, but-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:02

Hmm

Chris RyanHost59:03

...

Chris RyanHost59:03

I, maybe I'm not-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:04

Only a few of the emails were from me

Chris RyanHost59:04

... distinctive enough podcaster.

Chris RyanHost59:06

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost59:06

[laughs] Um.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:07

It's fine.

Chris RyanHost59:07

Anyway, I just thought I would mention that t- these two shows are ending.

Chris RyanHost59:11

Uh, that, that Euphoria, which obviously was a, a intermittent presence-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:16

Yeah

Chris RyanHost59:16

...

Chris RyanHost59:16

in, in HBO's lineup, and Hacks, which has been a very consistent presence.

Chris RyanHost59:21

Uh, that's-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:22

And, well, the, well, Max has its two pit, um, adjacent-

Chris RyanHost59:27

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost59:27

... series coming.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:28

There's, there's the, the police show.

Chris RyanHost59:30

Is that Catalina Island?

Andy GreenwaldHost59:32

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:32

What is that?

Chris RyanHost59:33

There's-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:33

Oh, that, is that the family show?

Chris RyanHost59:34

No, that's the one about a guy, a, a sheriff on Catalina.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:38

Is, is it about him policing the Catalina wine mixer?

Chris RyanHost59:41

I hope so.

Chris RyanHost59:43

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost59:43

No. There's the Milo Ventimiglia show.

Chris RyanHost59:45

Yeah, there's a cop show.

Chris RyanHost59:46

I don't-

Andy GreenwaldHost59:46

And then there also is, there's a family drama, um-

Chris RyanHost59:48

That's the one waiting to go

Andy GreenwaldHost59:49

... being led by Ray Romano.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:50

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost59:51

So I, it, I guess not...

Andy GreenwaldHost59:53

Like, we just, we just kinda did our best to find the positive in Euphoria, so I don't wanna do any more, um, what's the term the kids use? Glazing.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:00

But I do think what you described-

Chris RyanHost1:00:04

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:05

... is actually a best case scenario, I think, in terms of, um, industry position of a network that has a very, very steady floor.

Chris RyanHost1:00:15

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:15

And it's a very different floor than HBO had 10 years ago, or certainly 20 years ago, in the sense that it is built on more mainstream facing stuff that works, like Game of Thrones stuff, and DC stuff, and, um, you know, Bill Lawrence comedy, Rooster, and then also all of this, you know, broadcast-minded, all those things on Max.

Chris RyanHost1:00:41

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:41

The optimist case for that is Paramount or whomever [laughs] in the end, but probably Paramount, is buying something pretty solid.

Chris RyanHost1:00:50

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:00:50

And that there is room, uh, to iterate on top of it, and there's room for Casey to, to, to say to, um, all of the Ellisons, perhaps in a, some sort of, like...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:01

You remember when on Righteous Gemstones, when the Gemstone siblings would receive people sitting on their three thrones? I imagine that's-

Chris RyanHost1:01:09

That's how the Ellisons do it?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:10

That's what it, that's what it'll be like, where it's, like, um, Larry Ellison and, and, and, and, and the young Ellison.

Chris RyanHost1:01:16

Megan?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:16

Uh, no, not Megan.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:17

W- what's our, what's our guy?

Chris RyanHost1:01:18

David?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:19

David Ellison.

Chris RyanHost1:01:19

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:20

And then maybe, like, Scott Bessent or whatever.

Chris RyanHost1:01:21

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:22

Being like, "Actually, it's a good sign for the economy that everyone's poor." Uh, and anyway, Casey could be like, "There's actually room here for me to take a little money off the top for, like, three more Somebody Somewheres or a bigger artistic splash."

Chris RyanHost1:01:32

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:33

Um, but do you feel like it's an end of an era in a different way with these shows done?

Chris RyanHost1:01:36

No, I mean, I think it's an end of an era because of the corporate machinations.

Chris RyanHost1:01:39

I don't think...

Chris RyanHost1:01:39

I think, I think if anything, the end of Succession and Bear should... should show us that we shouldn't do this kind of like, "What's HBO gonna do now that Hacks is gone?" It's like, I think they'll figure it out.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:49

Well, we just did it.

Segue to Apple TV Talk1:01:49 – 1:02:27

Chris RyanHost1:01:49

I know.

Chris RyanHost1:01:50

But-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:50

You think we shouldn't do the thing we just did?

Chris RyanHost1:01:52

We shouldn't...

Chris RyanHost1:01:52

No, I think that the reason to, uh, to be like, "I wonder what's gonna happen next for HBO-"

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:56

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:01:56

... is because they are gonna be part of a different corporate parent.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:01:59

Mm.

Chris RyanHost1:01:59

Not because they, they continuously...

Chris RyanHost1:02:02

You know, and they morph.

Chris RyanHost1:02:03

They, they change.

Chris RyanHost1:02:04

There's, there's always gonna be these, like HBO 2027 is not gonna look like HBO 2021.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:10

Right.

Chris RyanHost1:02:10

But it, you know, it...

Chris RyanHost1:02:12

We always wind up kinda coming back home.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:14

Did you mention Harry Potter in the list of shows?

Chris RyanHost1:02:15

I did, man.

Chris RyanHost1:02:16

Yeah, yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:17

Be-

Chris RyanHost1:02:17

Is that where Peeves-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:18

Beatrix.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:19

Peeves, yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:02:20

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:02:20

Peeves or Beeves?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:21

[laughs] Were you doing the Arrested Development bit?

Chris RyanHost1:02:23

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:24

Beads.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:25

Bees?

Chris RyanHost1:02:26

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:27

It's Beeves, man.

Star City Review and Praise1:02:27 – 1:14:16

Chris RyanHost1:02:27

Let's talk about a show, uh, before we get outta here-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:30

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:02:30

... that I fucking love.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:31

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:02:31

Uh, and I did...

Chris RyanHost1:02:33

I, I knew I was gonna like it.

Chris RyanHost1:02:34

I didn't think I was gonna be blown away by it the way I was.

Chris RyanHost1:02:37

We're talking about Star City.

Chris RyanHost1:02:39

This is a...

Chris RyanHost1:02:41

I, I, I guess it's a spinoff.

Chris RyanHost1:02:42

There are characters in Star City that appear in For All Mankind.

Chris RyanHost1:02:47

They're-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:02:47

Play- played by different actors, I think

Chris RyanHost1:02:48

... different actors.

Chris RyanHost1:02:49

It's, it's set in the, uh, '60s in Russia, um, then the Soviet Union.

Chris RyanHost1:02:54

This comes from Matt Wolpert, uh, Ben Davidi, and Ronald Moore, who are also in charge of, of, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:00

For All Mankind

Chris RyanHost1:03:01

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:01

For All Mankind.

Chris RyanHost1:03:02

Although I believe Wolpert and Davidi basically do the brunt of that show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:05

Yes, they are the showrunners of both of these projects.

Chris RyanHost1:03:08

Um, and I'm gonna say this, and I don't really have a way of making this statement true-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:17

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:03:18

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:18

but it's how I feel.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:19

Okay.

Chris RyanHost1:03:19

Is this, uh, the Andor of For All Mankind Star Wars?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:24

Wow.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:25

Um, okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:28

Sure.

Chris RyanHost1:03:29

Uh, they Chernobyl-ed this.

Chris RyanHost1:03:30

This is, uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:31

It's, it's 100...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:31

I, it's rare to see a project of such deep, deep influence, but also kinda get away with it.

Chris RyanHost1:03:37

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:03:38

So it is Russian characters speaking in English accents-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:42

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:03:42

... portrayed by English-speaking performers for the most part-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:45

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:03:45

...

Chris RyanHost1:03:45

I believe.

Chris RyanHost1:03:46

Uh, it stars Rhys Ifans as the, uh, chief designer of the Soviet space program.

Chris RyanHost1:03:51

Uh, Anna Maxwell Martin as Ludmilla Raskova, uh, a KGB intelligence-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:03:57

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:03:57

... uh, officer who oversees the security of that space program.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:03

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:04:03

And then it's got a bunch of performers that I am either now fans of or had never seen before.

Chris RyanHost1:04:10

Um, so we have Agnes O'Casey playing Irina, who will turn up on For All Mankind eventually, and she is, uh, L- Raskova's new pr- protege at the KGB.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:20

Oh, wait, so this character is on...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:23

The reason it's a different actor is because it's an older version-

Chris RyanHost1:04:25

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:25

... of the character on For All Mankind?

Chris RyanHost1:04:26

Apparently, I think that they-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:27

That's cool

Chris RyanHost1:04:27

... showed up on...

Chris RyanHost1:04:28

She shows up in season four.

Chris RyanHost1:04:30

Uh, Alice Englert, uh, who plays Anastasia Belikova, the first woman in space.

Chris RyanHost1:04:36

Um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:37

First woman on the moon, dog.

Chris RyanHost1:04:38

Sorry, on, on the moon.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:39

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:04:40

Uh, Adam Nagaitis and Sally McLeod, they play Valya and Sasha respectively, who are two-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:44

Adam, and Adam we know because he was one of the firefig- firefighter buddies on Chernobyl.

Chris RyanHost1:04:47

That's right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:48

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:04:48

And there are some Chernobyl faces on this show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:04:50

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:04:51

The, uh...

Chris RyanHost1:04:53

I mean, this is not really, like, a piece of cultural criticism.

Chris RyanHost1:04:56

I like, uh, watching trained English, Irish, Welsh, and otherwise actors-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:01

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:05:02

... imbuing scripts with just incredibly lived-in performances immediately.

Chris RyanHost1:05:08

This feels like a '70s conspiracy thriller with a sci-fi, a, a plausible, realistic sci-fi bent.

Chris RyanHost1:05:19

It's an alternative history of the space race.

Chris RyanHost1:05:21

For All Mankind is told from the US perspective.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:23

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:05:23

This is told from the Soviet perspective.

Chris RyanHost1:05:25

And what you get in the first episode is essentially, um, Raskova is leading a mole hunt inside of the space program.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:32

Star, Star City.

Chris RyanHost1:05:33

Star City.

Chris RyanHost1:05:34

Um, and when the prospective first woman on the moon is thought to be a spy for the Americans, she's replaced by Anastasia Belikova, played by Englert, and, uh, because it's thought that Anastasia will be more pliant to the-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:50

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:05:50

...

Chris RyanHost1:05:50

the party's needs.

Chris RyanHost1:05:52

Um, and meanwhile, so that, that whole, like, going up to the moon with a woman is, is happening.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:05:58

And it's quite tense and well shot, and-

Chris RyanHost1:06:00

It is gorgeous.

Chris RyanHost1:06:01

Nick Murphy directed this first two batch, this two-episode batch that went up.

Chris RyanHost1:06:06

Um, and then the second episode, which I don't wanna get too far into-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:10

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:06:10

... 'cause you haven't had a chance to see it, uh, is about Anastasia's victory and promo tour, and, um, the ways in which they are using her to sort of y- as a propaganda piece.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:24

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:06:24

But deepening the mole hunt and Irina's, um, being pulled into the dark side of security work for the KGB.

Chris RyanHost1:06:33

I don't know if there is a light side of security work for the KGB.

Chris RyanHost1:06:35

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:35

[laughs]

Chris RyanHost1:06:35

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:36

Sort of the, the light fun-

Chris RyanHost1:06:36

Who's on, who's like the Luke Skywalker of the KGB? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:40

I guess we're gonna find out.

Chris RyanHost1:06:41

Um, the show is fucking awesome.

Chris RyanHost1:06:43

It uses, uh, in much the same way Chernobyl does, the brutalist, decaying textures of-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:53

Of Lithuania

Chris RyanHost1:06:54

... y- they shot in Lithuania?

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:55

Hell yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:06:56

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:06:56

Shout out, Lithuania

Chris RyanHost1:06:58

... to just give everything this kind of, like, light cigarette smoked on, moldy, decaying, the lights don't always work feel.

Chris RyanHost1:07:09

And yet at the same time, you know, you're watching, um, this moment of great optimism and idealism, and to see it sort of broadcast in this different way-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:21

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:07:22

...

Chris RyanHost1:07:22

in both, two different ways.

Chris RyanHost1:07:23

One, if the Soviets made it to the moon first, but two, in this way in which, like, every victory is also a thing that needs to be controlled-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:32

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:07:33

... a thing that needs to be interrogated, a thing that needs to be buttoned up.

Chris RyanHost1:07:36

Whereas on the US side, everything is sort of this expression of a new kind of a- American exceptionalism and-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:42

Yes

Chris RyanHost1:07:42

... and American imperialism.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:44

I, I, I mean, it, it's, it's beautifully characterized in the scene in which, uh, the chief designer is rewarded for his... is absolutely outrageous victory-

Chris RyanHost1:07:53

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:53

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:53

but it's in an empty room and he-

Chris RyanHost1:07:54

Yes

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:54

... has to give the medal back.

Chris RyanHost1:07:55

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:07:56

Um, Paul Spriggs is the name of the production designer, who previously worked on Sex Education.

Chris RyanHost1:08:01

Mm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:01

Which is a very different palette.

Chris RyanHost1:08:03

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:03

So bravo.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:04

Production designers, unsung heroes of all television.

Chris RyanHost1:08:07

So for as much as this is...

Chris RyanHost1:08:08

First of all, I just wanna get your general thoughts on the episode you watched.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:10

Well, I kinda wanna...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:11

I loved it, and I, I can't wait to watch more.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:15

I ki- it's...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:16

This may seem counterintuitive, but my reference point for watching the show was actually Spider Noir, which we talked about last week.

Chris RyanHost1:08:23

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:23

Which is to say, I no longer understand what gets greenlit and what doesn't.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:28

Nothing makes sense to me anymore.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:30

For All Mankind, which is a sturdy show in terms of its, I believe, its performance, uh, and the engagement that it gets for Apple, is not a hit show, I think, by any metric, even within Apple's own...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:46

You know, not many people have Apple, despite its, um, ubiquity and its unlimited budgets.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:08:51

So the fact that that series is getting a Russian-centered spinoff back in the '60s, in many ways telling the B side to a story that was the story of the first season of For All Mankind, which was eight years ago-

Chris RyanHost1:09:05

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:05

... is fucking crazy.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:07

Like, spinoffs-

Chris RyanHost1:09:08

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:09

... spinoffs, in their best case, don't-

Chris RyanHost1:09:11

Also-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:11

... retain the full audience of the mothership.

Chris RyanHost1:09:13

With Rhys Ifans and Anno Maxwell Martin leading it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:16

Leading it.

Chris RyanHost1:09:16

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:16

And without any attempt to make this sex-

Chris RyanHost1:09:21

And it's like Russell Crowe-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:22

I mean, there's, there's sex in it, but like-

Chris RyanHost1:09:22

... is playing this guy.

Chris RyanHost1:09:23

You know what I mean? It's like they didn't-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:24

No.

Chris RyanHost1:09:25

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:25

The, there seems to be an understanding that this is going to be mostly, uh, an artistic [laughs] frankly, project in the shadow of a show that i- isn't, hasn't set the world on fire.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:36

Now, maybe this will be a wonderful outcome for everyone, where what we felt about the first episode or two episodes will be borne out by the rest of it, and then it'll have a sudden surge and may, you know, become incredibly popular in its own right, and we'll do our best to make that happen.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:50

But it's wild to me.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:52

And i- is it a, is it...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:09:54

A- and secondarily, I think we should say for people listening, um, you do not need to watch For All Mankind, I think, to engage with the show.

Chris RyanHost1:10:02

Yeah, I've watched the first-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:03

There might be-

Chris RyanHost1:10:03

... two and a half seasons of For All Mankind.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:04

I watched the first two seasons.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:05

I was talking to my daughters about it on the way to school, 'cause they asked what we were talking about on the podcast, and then they asked me to tell them everything that happened at the end of Euphoria.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:12

And-

Chris RyanHost1:10:12

How did you do that? [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:13

I mostly focused on the laxatives that Wayne took.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:17

Um, because that kind of humor is always sells, especially on the way to school.

Chris RyanHost1:10:19

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:20

Um, the premise of For All Mankind remains elite.

Chris RyanHost1:10:24

Mm-hmm.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:24

And so cool and so compelling, and such a great use of television to be like, "No, let's do this, and let's really, really try it." But, um, I found it too big and too ambitious, and I just didn't enjoy the watching of it as much as I admired it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:38

Um, I don't think you need to have watched it to watch this or to appreciate it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:42

I just spent half this episode being like, "How are we getting this? This is wild." Um, but I should not question it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:10:48

Um, I'm glad they're spending their money on this.

Chris RyanHost1:10:51

The...

Chris RyanHost1:10:52

There was something kind of like, um, I, I, and I don't, I don't mean this as a blanket criticism of a show that I, I haven't watched in a couple of seasons.

Chris RyanHost1:11:01

I've kept up with what's kind of happening on All Mankind, but I-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:04

So, so For All Mankind, from what I understand, every season is a decade leap forward-

Chris RyanHost1:11:07

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:07

... into this alternate history.

Chris RyanHost1:11:08

They're in the '90s, I think now.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:09

Or, or the, into the 2000s, and now there is a full colony on Mars.

Chris RyanHost1:11:13

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:13

Because the idea of For All Mankind, the fundamental, like, rupture in our space and time is that the Russians won-

Chris RyanHost1:11:20

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:20

... which is what we see happen in the opening moments beautifully and brilliantly.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:24

I mean, pilots are hard.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:25

The opening moments of this show are so excellent-

Chris RyanHost1:11:27

Are-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:27

... at bringing you into everything that the show's gonna be about, and also making you understand something, if you are a fan of the other show, that you're gonna be seeing it from the other side.

Chris RyanHost1:11:35

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:35

But-

Chris RyanHost1:11:35

And it's like the paranoia and terror that then mixes with a moment of triumph is-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:40

And pride

Chris RyanHost1:11:41

... is, is really, really excellent.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:42

And, and the domestic versus the profe- just a completely different perspective on it.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:45

It's so, so, so well done.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:11:47

Um, but that the idea that in For All Mankind, this loss of the space race led to an American obsession of catching up, which led to a completely transformed second half of the century into the new century, in which space is everything.

Chris RyanHost1:12:00

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:01

As opposed to something we did and we won and we moved on from.

Chris RyanHost1:12:03

[smacks lips] Uh, there are these character moments, and I...

Chris RyanHost1:12:07

You know what? I, I want you to watch the second one, and then we can talk about it in more detail.

Chris RyanHost1:12:10

But what I will say is that, um, I'm sure if I did, like, a forensic scouring of what's happened on For All Mankind, I could come up with, like-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:19

Chris RyanHost1:12:19

... a pretty solid synopsis of what's going to happen on Starcity.

Chris RyanHost1:12:25

But there are these character beats that I find enchanting.

Chris RyanHost1:12:31

Enchanting in a way that, like, kind of reminds me of the f- of Battlestar, Ronald Moore's Battlestar Galactica, of, like, you start out and you think, "This is gonna be the mechanic."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:40

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:12:40

I get it.

Chris RyanHost1:12:41

And you're like, "Oh my God, I had no idea, like, this is where we were gonna wind up." And even some of the cosmonauts are being given character depth that you just didn't...

Chris RyanHost1:12:50

You know, you would not necessarily need to imbue the seventh guy on the show-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:54

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:12:54

... with this, like, "This is what I want, and but this is who I am."

Andy GreenwaldHost1:12:58

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:12:58

"And this is the frustration that comes along with it." It's, it's really, really top-notch TV, and I'm really excited to keep watching it.

Chris RyanHost1:13:05

I think you're gonna adore the second episode.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:08

Even more.

Chris RyanHost1:13:09

Oh, I think so.

Chris RyanHost1:13:10

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:13:11

Um, and if I had a critique of All M- For All Mankind, even though I, you know, I like, um, Joel Kinnaman as a performer.

Chris RyanHost1:13:19

I like a lot of the-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:20

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:13:20

... people who are on it.

Chris RyanHost1:13:22

There was a certain kind of, like, uh, it's not like a, a falseness.

Chris RyanHost1:13:27

There was like an...

Chris RyanHost1:13:27

All wa- I was always aware that I was watching people on a TV show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:32

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:33

I understand what you mean.

Chris RyanHost1:13:33

Um, and it felt like dress-up, and this doesn't, even though there is a complete artifice to the fact that all of these people are Russians speaking-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:44

W-

Chris RyanHost1:13:44

...

Chris RyanHost1:13:44

English

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:44

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:45

the, the least generous take on that is that they found the Chernobyl filter that works.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:49

It's a filter on the show, the way they speak accented English as Russian, the way Russian sounds in English, you know, referring to people as chief designer, which actually is-... more common-

Chris RyanHost1:13:58

Mm-hmm

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:58

...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:13:58

in Russian than it would be in, in English.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:01

Um, but we under- we, we speak this fictional language now.

Chris RyanHost1:14:05

Yes.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:05

And it, and they, they're doing a great job of doing a show in that language.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:09

It's not, um, just mimicry.

Chris RyanHost1:14:12

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:13

Um, we got a, a couple things on the cast, couple small notes.

Previewing Next Episodes & Top Chef Tease1:14:16 – 1:17:31

Chris RyanHost1:14:16

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:16

One, happy to see Eliot Salt.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:18

She plays the other, um, listening person.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:21

Remember she was on Slow Horses, uh, in like two seasons ago.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:26

Um-

Chris RyanHost1:14:26

Damn, that's a-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:27

This lady, recognized her immediately from that.

Chris RyanHost1:14:29

Right, right.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:29

Love seeing these people get-

Chris RyanHost1:14:30

That's a deep cut

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:30

... get good work.

Chris RyanHost1:14:31

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:14:32

[laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:32

Um, I'm paying close attention.

Chris RyanHost1:14:33

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:33

Partly because, as you know, I'm constantly on Nepo watch.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:37

Ever since we started this podcast and I've looked across at you, you know it's Nepo watch.

Chris RyanHost1:14:41

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:41

And-

Chris RyanHost1:14:41

As I stand on the shoulder of giants.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:43

[laughs] I mean, who amongst...

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:47

Uh, I mean, what other critics were willing to shit on Godfather II, you know, in a way?

Chris RyanHost1:14:50

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:50

Like, imagine he would've killed on a podcast.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:14:53

Um, so I think we, we have to talk about the fact that Alice Englert is clearly [laughs] the daughter of-

Chris RyanHost1:15:01

You have to defend this-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:02

No, I don't actually

Chris RyanHost1:15:02

...

Chris RyanHost1:15:02

Atticus Finch.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:03

This is, this is-

Chris RyanHost1:15:04

You know? Like, come on

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:04

... actually fun for me.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:04

No, she is the daughter of Jane Campion, who's the great-

Chris RyanHost1:15:07

Yeah

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:07

... director.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:07

She was in Top of the Lake, her mom's TV show.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:09

She's awesome.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:10

I don't actually have a take on this.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:11

It was just funny to see that.

Chris RyanHost1:15:13

It is.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:13

And a- as it was funny to see that Tanya Mironova, who's one of the cosmonaut's wife who's keeping up a little something on the side, is Andy Serkis' daughter.

Chris RyanHost1:15:20

I did not know that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:21

Yeah.

Chris RyanHost1:15:22

Uh-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:22

Her name being Ruby Serkis didn't give it away?

Chris RyanHost1:15:24

The, the character who I think is, is, has been the, the one that has blossomed for me the most-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:30

Chris RyanHost1:15:30

... is, is Alice Englert's Anastasia character.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:32

She, she is a, a, the, the, the Nepo thing is a joke, especially when we're talking about, um, a dedicated art- artistic person like Jane Campion [laughs] and her family.

Chris RyanHost1:15:41

Sure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:41

Like, I'm not really worried about the benefits of the leg up she got in the Kiwi film industry.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:46

But, um, it's actually-

Chris RyanHost1:15:47

Do you think when she's, like, at, at auditions they're like, "Top of the Lake, must be nice." [laughs]

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:51

No.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:51

No, they'd be like, "The, the piano, huh? When'd your mom show you that?"

Chris RyanHost1:15:55

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:15:56

Um, no, I, I, I think that as an actor she is surprising in her presentation, in her line readings, in what she brings to it, and this is just through one episode, that, like, you notice.

Chris RyanHost1:16:07

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:07

And it's, and that's especially noteworthy casting, I think, in a show in which the aesthetic is primary, that everything is kind of brutalist and gray, and there's snow, and you can't do pops of color to distinguish, "Oh, well, that character wears a saucy scarf.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:21

That's telling us something." No, they can't do that, so casting becomes even more important.

Chris RyanHost1:16:25

Yeah.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:25

And the contrast that the show does between her and the cosmonaut that she replaces within the episode is, is expertly done.

Chris RyanHost1:16:32

Yes.

Chris RyanHost1:16:33

Uh, we will continue to talk about this.

Chris RyanHost1:16:35

The third episode goes up on Friday, so maybe, maybe we'll talk a little bit about episode two on Thursday, but I, I think we'll probably consistently chat about this show throughout its season, if I had to guess.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:44

Yeah, and then we're gonna hit Maximum Pleasure.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:46

We're gonna stay in the Apple ecosystem.

Chris RyanHost1:16:48

Apple's just got us.

Chris RyanHost1:16:49

We, we, we, we do nothing but serve our [laughs] big brother.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:53

Team Apple.

Chris RyanHost1:16:53

Um, yeah, so Widow's Bay on Thursday, Top Chef on Thursday.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:16:58

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:16:58

Maybe a little bit more Star City, um-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:00

Kris- Kristen said this is her favorite episode of Top Chef this season.

Chris RyanHost1:17:03

Okay.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:04

Did you know that?

Chris RyanHost1:17:04

I did not know that.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:05

Mm-hmm.

Chris RyanHost1:17:05

That's good to know.

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:06

I also heard, this is just now we're just into Reddit stuff, but, like, a PA who worked on the show said this sh- that, said that the edit actually helped Seeker, 'cause it was much worse.

Chris RyanHost1:17:17

The edit of h- of his behavior-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:19

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:17:19

... during the jury or his-

Andy GreenwaldHost1:17:20

Mm-hmm

Chris RyanHost1:17:20

...

Chris RyanHost1:17:20

the edit of, like, his cooking?