‘The Bear’ Season 5, Episodes 1-4: Let It Rip

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Van LathanHost0:30

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[upbeat music]

What is up, y'all? Welcome to the Prestige TV Podcast.

I'm Charles Holmes, he's Van Lathan.

Together, we're known as the Midnight Boys.

Woo-hoo.

Van LathanHost1:24

Woo-hoo.

And we're back as we are every single year for this, this little annual tradition of covering The Bear.

Van LathanHost1:31

Yeah.

Little housekeeping before we get into it.

Don't worry y'all, Rob and Joe will be back this weekend to continue their coverage of Cape Fear.

But for right now, we're going to The Bear.

How you feeling, man? This is the final season.

Van LathanHost1:45

Anxious.

[laughs]

Van LathanHost1:47

Anxious.

Van LathanHost1:47

'Cause look, here's the thing about The Bear.

Van LathanHost1:49

This show just shot out of the gates like a canon, right? And it had a weird type of success, a type of success that shows in their first season rarely get.

Van LathanHost2:03

Like, people were adopting some of the slang from The Bear.

Van LathanHost2:06

It made stars out of people.

Uh.

Van LathanHost2:09

After The Bear came out-

Halloween costumes

Van LathanHost2:11

...

Van LathanHost2:11

Halloween costumes.

Van LathanHost2:12

It really penetrated culture, right, for that first season.

Wait, let me, let me ask you this really quick.

Van LathanHost2:17

Sure.

'Cause I was thinking about this.

Can you name another TV show maybe within, like, the last, I don't know, like, five, six years-

Van LathanHost2:25

Mm-hmm

... that has minted this amount of stars? Like, The Pit is a huge show, but I haven't even seen for that cast.

It is like Jeremy Allen White is a star, Ebon is a star, Ayo is a star.

Lionel, Lionel was in, um, fucking Project Hail Mary.

Van LathanHost2:40

Everybody's running, everybody's running and working, yeah.

Yeah, it is...

That to me is incredible.

But watching this final season, what I realized, I was like, oh, The Bear as a show weirdly, the narrative of the show followed the trajectory of it, where it's like the first season is a surprise, second season critically acclaimed, all of these people are becoming stars.

But as the show gets bigger and bigger, we get cameos.

Celebrities wanna be on the show.

People start turning against it.

Van LathanHost3:11

Mm-hmm.

In the Emmy race, they're like, "Oh, how is it winning all these comedies? It's sweeping comedy awards.

It's sweeping up.

It's not even a comedy." And it almost kind of predicted where we're at with TV, where it seems like it's impossible to be a hit show in 2026.

It seems like you get one or two seasons and [laughs] the audience turns on you immediately.

Van LathanHost3:32

Well, I think to a degree it's always been like that in the post-Sopranos, Mad Men prestige area, e- era.

Str- so basically the streaming era.

Van LathanHost3:42

So basically the streaming era.

Van LathanHost3:43

It's always...

Van LathanHost3:44

It's, it's difficult, right? It's difficult because of the way you have to put the stuff out.

Van LathanHost3:49

It's difficult because of what the stars want to do now, of what it means to be a star now.

Van LathanHost3:54

Maintaining your narrative and your energy throughout an entire season is this relationship with your audience that used to be a lot more reflexive in years past, right? And now it's different.

Van LathanHost4:05

Now you kinda gotta try.

Van LathanHost4:07

And with The Bear, The Bear is still dropping in, um, in bulk batches, right? It's still a binge.

Every single year.

Van LathanHost4:14

Every, uh, every year it's still a binge.

Van LathanHost4:15

Which that also kind of, to me, is inconvenient to the stars of the show because you get all The Bear at once, you talk about it for, for a short time.

Van LathanHost4:28

And while that's good for their careers in terms of the movies that they do, they're not buoyed by the success of The Bear throughout a whole summer.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost4:38

They don't get to be stars of The Bear for three or four months.

Van LathanHost4:42

They get star- be stars of Bear for, like, a week, two weeks.

You look at Widow's Bay, Matthew Rhys, I cannot open Instagram or Twitter or go anywhere without, like, an interview because that show starts, no one's really watching it and then it's like the heads are watching it.

And by the end of, you know, or the beginning of this summer, you're like...

People are like, "Are they gonna sweep the Emmys?" And to your point, when it's a batch drop, it is, the stars and the creators almost get all of the acclaim-

Van LathanHost5:12

Mm-hmm

...

but they get all of, like, the duration.

Whether you love it or hate it, it all [laughs] comes in one big swell.

Van LathanHost5:17

At the same time.

Van LathanHost5:18

And also, like, you know, I'm sure that their careers are so popping.

Van LathanHost5:22

I'll go back to your question in a second.

Van LathanHost5:24

I'm sure that their careers are so popping that they kind of maybe want to be done with the show a little bit.

Van LathanHost5:28

They probably wanna put it in the rear view mirror and go try other things.

Van LathanHost5:32

Uh, Jeremy Allen White has a Social Reckoning com- coming out.

Van LathanHost5:35

You know, Ayo's been everywhere.

Van LathanHost5:36

She's just kind of on Broadway.

Ebon is a Thing.

He's gonna be in, uh, in Doomsday.

[laughs]

Van LathanHost5:39

Ebon is a Thing.

Van LathanHost5:40

He's in...

Van LathanHost5:41

So all these people are all moving and working.

Van LathanHost5:42

Lionel, we've talked all about them a- and what they're doing, so maybe they want to be free of this.

Van LathanHost5:47

But there is also something that, like- If you make a couple of bad choices, right? If your Bruce Springsteen movie doesn't go well, if people are wondering now whether or not you are a movie star, right? If you're Jeremy Allen White, if your show were running in a more episodic fashion, your show would be able to satiate people a little bit.

Right.

Van LathanHost6:09

They'd be able to get back in touch with what they like.

Van LathanHost6:11

And also, to your point, the reaction to the show is different because season three of The Bear didn't go so well, and part of that is because people watched them all at the same time.

Van LathanHost6:20

They didn't have to sit with them.

Van LathanHost6:21

But as far as making stars, no.

Van LathanHost6:25

Except for maybe Game of Thrones, right? But they're-

Game of Thrones was, yeah, the last time

Van LathanHost6:28

...

Van LathanHost6:28

but the cast is so expansive that you can't compare it to this show.

Well, maybe also Atlanta.

I would say Atlanta arguably-

Van LathanHost6:34

Atlanta, well, yeah, Atlanta.

Van LathanHost6:35

Atlanta is there as well.

Van LathanHost6:36

We're, and all of them got huge, huge, Zazie Beetz, uh, Lakeith Stanfield.

Van LathanHost6:42

Atlanta is definitely one.

Van LathanHost6:43

But Atlanta is very similar to The Bear in that regard-

Yeah

Van LathanHost6:46

... to where those stories are contained, that narrative is very tight and very clean, and it's so specific that you can take somebody from that and say, "This is how I made them this huge actor and this other thing."

With this final season, I was wondering, 'cause we're gonna get into the episodes really, really quick, but I realize the other reason I feel like the actors might be, uh, maybe ready to say goodbye is I'm like, this must be such a hard show-

Van LathanHost7:15

Yeah

... to film.

Van LathanHost7:16

Yeah.

That intensity, those characters, just kind of being locked in that space where everybody's frantic, everything is burning down.

I was like, dog, this is a family, but a- after every season, after these four episodes, it's like, God damn, are they [laughs] putting these motherfuckers through it.

Van LathanHost7:35

It's tough.

Van LathanHost7:36

It's tough.

Van LathanHost7:36

They're putting them through it, and they're also putting the audience through it.

Van LathanHost7:38

This is an intense show.

Van LathanHost7:40

Like, some of the best episodes of The Bear are when they just take the MPA sign off of the car and mash down on the gas and just go.

Van LathanHost7:51

And when you catch your breath, uh, the credits are rolling.

Van LathanHost7:56

Um, this particular season is just, everything is hanging on the balance in every single fucking scene in these first four episodes it feels like.

Van LathanHost8:04

It feels like all of the relationships are hanging in the balance, the restaurant is hanging in the balance.

Van LathanHost8:09

Not just the, uh, survival of the restaurant as a culinary artistic entity, but the survival of the structure of the building.

Van LathanHost8:18

You could see an episode of The Bear where the whole fucking restaurant crumbles down on Carmy and Syd and everybody dies.

Van LathanHost8:25

Like, that's how the fucking...

Van LathanHost8:26

Y- you know what I'm saying?

[laughs] They're over a sinkhole.

Van LathanHost8:28

Yeah, they're over a sinkhole.

Van LathanHost8:29

Like, so the question that is different from the first season to now is, is this show still enjoyable?

Mm.

Van LathanHost8:42

You know? It, like, the first season, it was insanely enjoyable, right? But as the show built its narrative and things continued to happen, it's sometimes a tough watch.

We get into the actual episode, all four directed by Christopher Storer, and they do something that I was like, oh, okay, you're going there.

And I've only watched the first four, but through these initial episodes, I'm like, oh, this is contained in a way that reminds me of the first season.

Van LathanHost9:10

Yeah.

The, it's not, we're not doing the second, third season thing where it's like, oh, we're going, Syd is going here to get inspiration, and we're having a flashback episode, and we have forks, and we have this and that.

These four episodes are all, are time has run out, quote-unquote.

We're back where Carmy, in the, the finale of the last season, gave the partnership to Syd.

Van LathanHost9:37

Mm-hmm.

He gave it to Richie, said, "I quit." And in these four episodes, we're on a one-way track of like, we have one meal.

Van LathanHost9:46

Right.

We need to prove that w- and by the end of the fourth episode, it's like, surprise, the critic who's gonna give us a star or not is coming.

And I was like, oh, that is so interesting after building this narrative, whereas you see Brie Larson in this.

You see Bob Odenkirk in this.

Almost stripping the narrative back and making it this family in this cursed restaurant-

Van LathanHost10:08

Right

... and what are they gonna do I found fascinating.

Van LathanHost10:11

It's fascinating specifically because of your journey with the characters.

Van LathanHost10:16

You get to a point in this particular season where you're not sure what you want for them, which is an awesome place to be with characters.

Van LathanHost10:21

Like, uh, Game of Thrones, you got to a point to where you didn't know who you wanted to win.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost10:27

You know who you thought was going to win, but the show got to a point that was like, well, who do I want to win? Do I want Dany to win? Do I want, uh, uh, uh, Jon to win? Like, do I want Cersei to win, with everything that she's been through? I didn't, but do I want? And th- right now, I don't know what I want to happen to the restaurant.

Van LathanHost10:45

It seems as if they would all live freer, fuller lives if they were apart, that they're asking too much of each other.

Van LathanHost10:52

But it would also seem like such a profound disappointment for them not to have a 15, 20-year run with the restaurant.

Van LathanHost11:02

But inside of all of that, man, for this little restaurant, during this rainstorm, at this particular time, we're only through episode four, the stakes just seem so high that I can't relax with any scene.

Van LathanHost11:15

And it's, even The Sopranos, which is a show that was about a guy who, like, oftentimes kills people, they gave you a time to relax sometimes.

Van LathanHost11:24

And this-

Yeah

Van LathanHost11:24

...

Van LathanHost11:24

this, this, these four episodes, they didn't give you very much leisurely TV time.

'Cause we start, we're like, all right, it's torrential downpours.

It's won't stop raining.

The fucking pipes are bursting.

The basement is flooding.

People are falling through the roof.

They're over a sinkhole.

Van LathanHost11:41

Mm-hmm.

Um, they're looking to see who has the air rights.

Can they build a hotel?

Van LathanHost11:45

Right.

And even, uh, Uncle Jimmy basically has lost three-fourths of his fortune.

He's off with a new character, Cheese, a computer, uh, trying to figure out, do we have the air rights to this place?

Van LathanHost11:57

Right.

Because they're realizing, like, no one wants to buy a restaurant, especially one that's gonna sink into the ground in the next five or 10 years.

So he's like, "Can I sell this and make it a hotel?" There's not one character throughout this entire four-episode stretch who is in a good place.

Even Marcus, coming off of this big accolade, best new chef, is feeling it now.

He's almost becoming a little Carmy in a way, where it's like he's now trying to prove to his father.

He's like, "This might be the only chance I get." And I'm like, that is a very, very interesting place to put all these characters.

But to your point, [laughs] I was like...

I watched this before bed and I was, like, stressed.

I was having- I was just like, "Oh, fuck, I feel kinda [laughs]..."

Van LathanHost12:39

I mean, t- you know, as you watch the show, as you see things happening, you realize one thing in these first four episodes.

Van LathanHost12:49

This restaurant is the thing that connects these characters that we love.

Yep.

Van LathanHost12:55

The prelude to this show is, uh, is some type of story or understanding of Carmy's family.

Mm-hmm.

Van LathanHost13:04

Right? The, the idiosyncrasies of that family, the absurdities of that family, right? But it starts and is oriented around the death, or at least, uh, dealing with the death of the person that seemingly kept that family together.

Yeah, Mikey.

Van LathanHost13:21

Mikey.

Van LathanHost13:22

So Mikey kept that family together.

Van LathanHost13:24

So the question then became, what keeps that family together now? And it wasn't together when we first got there, when we first started with them.

Van LathanHost13:32

It wasn't together at all.

Van LathanHost13:34

Um, they had all of the bones and the skeletons of that same family that Mikey kept together, but everything was gone.

Van LathanHost13:40

Then this restaurant comes, and not only does it bring the Berzatto family back together-

Right

Van LathanHost13:45

... right, it brings them back together.

Van LathanHost13:46

Mom ends up coming back into the fold.

Van LathanHost13:48

Um, the sister comes back.

Van LathanHost13:50

Everybody's together again, right? It creates a new family, and the restaurant takes the place of Mikey.

Yep.

Van LathanHost13:59

The restaurant is now the thing that glues these people.

Van LathanHost14:02

And it feels like if the restaurant meets the same fate that Mikey does, that everybody disperses again.

Van LathanHost14:11

But once again, you don't know if that might not be the best thing for them.

Van LathanHost14:16

But for me, I don't want to see this family that I've spent these years with, like, end up the same way that they were when we first found them, which is dismembered from one another in different places, not just physically, but also emotionally.

I mean, watching this season, 'cause it's always been there, but it was even more pronounced, because as Su- Sugar at one point is kind of describing the plight of the restaurant.

Van LathanHost14:44

Yeah.

And just, "Restaurants are a terrible fucking business.

They're impossible to keep open." And as I was watching this, I'm like, part of me feels like Christopher Storer and his team are using The Bear, the restaurant, Carmy, Syd, and the, and everyone's plight to really talk about what it is to do, like, anything creative-

Van LathanHost15:06

Mm-hmm

... or anything with a team.

Where it's like, if you're a championship basketball team, you win the fucking championship, the next day, what are people talking about? How are they gonna keep it together? How are we gonna pay all these people? When you, you're on a successful movie, or even a bad movie-

Van LathanHost15:19

Right

... you're like, "Oh, we're a family.

We are pushing this boulder up a hill for eight months, a year," however long.

You make the thing, and whether it's a success or failure, that family might not be able to stay together.

And watching these episodes, I'm like, oh, I feel like Christopher Storer almost is going through that in almost a meta way, where it is like you build this restaurant, you build something successful, and you have all these stars, and you have all this attention, and you have all these Emmys.

And at the end of the day, what are you doing it for? Are you doing it for a star?

Van LathanHost15:53

Mm-hmm.

Are you doing it so you can show off your cooking skills?

Van LathanHost15:55

Right.

Or it's like even if you are doing it for family, I was reading this very interesting interview with Ebon Moss-Bachrach where he was talking about how much The Bear has changed his life and how much he loves this show.

And the interview ends with, "But it needs to end."

Van LathanHost16:12

Mm.

And he did not say that in a way that he disliked the show or that he has any resentment, but it was a level of, I'm like, oh, I can't imagine what it is like being on a rocket ship like that for this long, and being like, part of my life has stopped.

Van LathanHost16:28

Right.

Because you feel it with Carmy, where it's like I don't know whether to believe Carmy or not.

Has he fell out of love with cooking, or is he like, "For me to become a better person, I need to get out of here"?

Van LathanHost16:39

I think the thing with Carmy is, it, it, Carmy, what I am getting from what I'm watching from Carmy is that Carmy thought, and he was trained as a chef, to, uh, never, ever, ever accept any limit.

Yep.

Van LathanHost16:58

Like, it's a creative endeavor.

Van LathanHost17:00

What, what are the limits on Steven Spielberg? What are the limits on Martin Scorsese? What are the limits? They have no limits, right? They take us to different galaxies and universes.

Van LathanHost17:07

They take us inside of our own communities to underbellies and secret societies and people that we don't know are there, right? And explanat- uh, explo- exploration of the mafia, which is a secret society.

Van LathanHost17:17

And, and uncover all of these things.

Van LathanHost17:18

There's no limit to it.

Van LathanHost17:20

And w- the way Carmy was raised up in cooking is there was no limits there, either.

Van LathanHost17:24

There were no limits to what you could accomplish.

Van LathanHost17:27

There were no limits to what you had to sacrifice, which is a part of the game, right? And he kept pressing upon everyone to think bigger, to go harder, to try more, to stretch yourself and push yourself.

Van LathanHost17:42

And Carmy is coming to terms with his limit.

Van LathanHost17:46

He's coming to terms with the fact that his talent might not match this breakneck ambition that everybody else has.

Van LathanHost17:57

Family might be more important.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost17:58

Like, serenity might be more important.

Van LathanHost18:01

He also might be just telling himself that.

Van LathanHost18:03

He might get to a point to where he thinks that that is the case for him, but it's really not, right? He might just be so beaten down by it- That he doesn't know that he'll never, ever, ever be happy not being the man at that restaurant, and waking up at 2:00 o'clock in the morning trying to figure out recipes.

But it was interesting, because he has that talk with Richie.

Van LathanHost18:24

Right.

Where Richie is basically like, it was so funny, 'cause as someone who wrestled in high school-

Van LathanHost18:30

[laughs]

...

I felt it very, I felt it very [laughs] when Richie was just like, "Dog, that's a solo-"

Van LathanHost18:34

It's a solo sport.

Bro, like-

Van LathanHost18:36

And you got your ass kicked.

Van LathanHost18:37

[laughs]

It's, and what I find so interesting about Carmy is, there's this level of, he comes back in the first season, and he's almost this little tyrant-

Van LathanHost18:49

Mm-hmm

... where he's not wrong.

The restaurant is fucked up.

The books are fucked up.

It cannot exist like this.

It cannot survive like this.

And Richie being the one, like, "We are out of gas."

Van LathanHost19:01

Right.

"We need teamwork."

Van LathanHost19:05

Yeah.

"You have been trying to do fucking bl- backflips, and show us how much you've learned and how much you can do.

And I'm telling you right now, for us to get where we, we are," uh, I think even Marcus says it, where it's like that free jazz moment, whether you're playing football or soccer, where it's like, you might be the man.

You might be the ace.

You might be the person that can take us to the promised land, but there's a part when you're great of letting go, and being like, part of greatness is raising the floor of everybody else.

So, even if you're not having your best day-

Van LathanHost19:36

Right

... you're ensuring that everybody else is.

'Cause like, you see Syd in these episodes being overwhelmed-

Van LathanHost19:43

Yeah

... as a leader, being like, "Oh, now I'm the person who has to deal with someone falling through the roof, and telling this person to do that," and I'm like, oh, even Carmy's in the wings being like.

[laughs]

Van LathanHost19:54

Yeah.

Damn, she's become [laughs] little Carmy.

Van LathanHost19:57

Well, I mean, she is.

Van LathanHost19:58

At the same time, it's just obvious that there's a part of this that she's much better-

Yeah

Van LathanHost20:03

... at than him.

Van LathanHost20:04

Like, he is, uh, a much better cook with utensils and recipes, and she's a much better cook with people.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost20:12

She's a much better cook with ideas.

Van LathanHost20:15

Like, she's a much better cook with organization.

Van LathanHost20:17

It's interesting that I didn't know that in a restaurant, everybody called each other chef.

Yeah.

[laughs]

Van LathanHost20:24

Right? And I think that I didn't understand it for the full run of this show, and I understand it now.

Van LathanHost20:32

Because everybody's responsibility in that type of environment is, is so through the roof, everyone's intensity level is so through the roof, that bestowing that title on everyone is an understanding of how much everybody is bringing, and that there's this gigantic shared, uh, load to lift, right? Load to lift.

Van LathanHost20:58

I didn't just say loads.

Van LathanHost20:59

I don't, you know what I'm saying?

[laughs]

Van LathanHost21:01

Don't do, don't play me.

Van LathanHost21:02

So, that, and so now I see it, and now I'm seeing her with the capability, because maybe he's a little bit burned out, to lift more than him, to empower people in the way that he can't.

Van LathanHost21:12

He calls everyone chef, but it doesn't feel like he really means it, right? He can hear how hot the stove is.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost21:17

He can hear it.

Van LathanHost21:19

He can hear how hot the stove is.

Van LathanHost21:20

Turn around, turn that down a little bit.

Van LathanHost21:22

He's used to micromanaging things, because he's wearing it all.

Van LathanHost21:25

Is there a chance that when Carmy gives some of his burden away, that he'll be more comfortable where he's at? Is that the true end of this show, Carmy being comfortable in his own skin somewhere? Because it doesn't seem like he's been anywhere else he's been.

I mean, it's also, like, that burden of that type of genius that Carmy has, where very rarely does the mo- is the most talented person in the room the best leader.

Van LathanHost21:51

Right.

And when you look at someone like Syd, you're like, not only does she have the ability to cook on a similar level as Carmy, she has a thing that he doesn't, which is like, "I can empower everybody else in this room," Tino or Richie or everyone else.

She's, like you even see it in these first four episodes, being like, "I'm trying not to curse.

I'm trying not to yell." She is like, you see her struggling with, how do I go from the Berzatto reign, the Carmy reign, of the way I communicate with everyone is cursing, yelling, fighting, throwing shit, to a place of like, "No, we're a family." How do we get to what Marcus is talking about, that free jazz moment of everybody ha- i- is so talented, if there's trust in this kitchen, we're going to survive.

Van LathanHost22:40

Mm-hmm.

And maybe it's only for a night, maybe it's only for a week, but we're surviving, instead of being in a war zone.

'Cause there's even a moment where, like, she goes, "Why is, why'd you design it like this?"

Van LathanHost22:50

Yeah.

And he goes, "I don't know."

Van LathanHost22:52

Right.

And part of me, I was thinking, I was like, I think that's how it was designed in the other places he was at.

Van LathanHost22:58

Right.

He never thought about why it was designed that way in these Michelin restaurants.

He was just going, "This is how you need to cook." And for Syd, she's like, "But that's not how our team runs."

Van LathanHost23:07

Just-

"You weren't thinking of our team."

Van LathanHost23:09

Just doing what he was programmed to do.

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I wanna talk about Richie, because Richie also is such a fascinating character in this final season.

Because in the same way that, like, now he's almost more emo- and maybe he always was more emotionally intelligent than Carmy.

Van LathanHost25:55

Mm-hmm.

His last evolutionary leap is, who am I without the quotes?

Van LathanHost26:02

Right.

Without the Michael Mann movies, without the suit, without me trying to impress upon you how much I've read and learned.

Like, after Forksy, what I think is interesting is, like, for most shows, Forks would be the moment where Richie becomes this self-actualized being that can not do any wrong.

And you realize, oh, he's tipped over almost too far into, like, no, you need to lead in your own way.

Van LathanHost26:28

Mm-hmm.

Y- like, you n- 'Cause it was so funny when he's having that speech.

Originally, I thought he was talking about the original beef, when he's talking about the perfect restaurant.

And then he's like, he's, he ends up being like, "No, I'm talking about the Berzatto family, and I'm talking about those Sundays at their, at their crib where you could come over as you are.

Whatever food was in the fridge is what was served, and they would never kick you out." And I was like, oh, this is where Richie needs to get.

Van LathanHost26:58

Right.

He doesn't need to recreate the beef.

He needs to cre- recreate the family that, to your point earlier, gets fractured once Mikey dies.

Van LathanHost27:06

Yeah.

Van LathanHost27:07

It's fractured once Mikey dies.

Van LathanHost27:08

It doesn't exist anymore.

Van LathanHost27:09

There's nobody to hold it down.

Van LathanHost27:12

Uh, Carmy has left long before that.

Van LathanHost27:15

Their mother is not in a position, um, from an emotional standpoint, to, to be that rock for everyone.

Van LathanHost27:21

She actually stresses everybody out.

Van LathanHost27:23

And so they're kinda splintered, right?

Yeah.

Van LathanHost27:25

And Richie, whose stability was in that family most, mostly, is kind of on an island.

Van LathanHost27:33

Um, and he was the slowest one to change-

Yeah

Van LathanHost27:38

...

Van LathanHost27:38

in all of this stuff.

Van LathanHost27:39

Him and Sid almost killed each other, right? The slowest one to change.

Van LathanHost27:43

But now, he has become the rock.

Van LathanHost27:46

He has become the rock for them.

Van LathanHost27:48

W- Richie's now a character that whenever he opens his mouth, like, I expect wisdom, because he's really had to look at himself and evolve.

Van LathanHost27:57

All of this is happening.

Van LathanHost27:59

Everything is wet.

Van LathanHost28:01

This is a loud four episodes.

Van LathanHost28:03

This is a frantic four episodes.

Van LathanHost28:05

This is a episode where, let me ask you this.

Van LathanHost28:07

Did you laugh? Are there, there are a couple of times that I laughed, but I didn't really...

Van LathanHost28:13

This, this, this four episodes, to me, is not great proof positive for the whole Bear as a comedy contingent.

So I largely just don't care about whether The Bear is a comedy or not conversation.

Van LathanHost28:27

Right.

But to answer your question, I didn't laugh.

But I was almost happy I didn't, because I was like, these four episodes did the interesting thing where I'm like, oh, the creators are trying to, like, excise something.

They're trying to...

This season, I was just like, oh.

I was trying to put my mind, like, my head in, like, Joanna Calo, Christopher Storer, the showrunner, co-creator of this, and I was like...

Like I said in the beginning, to me, this season feels like, what happens when you finally make the thing? When Eben Mosbach rack was talking about the beginning of The Bear, he was just like, "We thought this was the red-headed stepchild." Nobody thought that this was gonna be a big thing.

This was, it was coming out around a time where it was like, Disney+ had, like, The Mandalorian, and all the MCU, uh, and the MCU, uh, TV shows.

And you have this thing that's The Bear, that's like this indie comedy.

And almost throughout its run, The Bear has not only become more ambitious, it's become a little bit more prickly.

And to me, these four episodes were a little bit more prickly, where it was like, and I could-- One of the moments was interesting, when Sugar's talking about her mother with Carmy, and they both say something that is like, you never wanna say to people, but I've had this conversation as someone who has addiction that runs in their family, where it's that thing where it's like, oh, you kinda want them to fuck up.

Not because you want them to hurt themselves, but because this person has let you down so many times before.

Van LathanHost29:59

You want 'em to hit rock bottom.

The feeling of like, 'cause I've had that feeling where it's like, I've been disappointed by this person so much.

And when you have a long space of time where they haven't, and they're showing you that new version of themselves, there is that thing where it's like, oh, I don't wanna forgive you.

Van LathanHost30:18

Yeah.

I, like, the hurt is so much.

For me to forgive you, I have to let some things go that I will never, that will never be right.

Van LathanHost30:28

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, that's interesting, because I'm like, through that character, what they're really talking about is just, like, this family and The Bear as an institution.

Van LathanHost30:38

Mm-hmm.

For Carmy to let go, he has to realize your brother OD'd You're never gonna get that, like, one last conversation with him.

Van LathanHost30:48

Mm-hmm.

Your mom- you're never gonna get those years back with your mom where she was, like, the perfect version of, like, you're never gonna get the version of The Beef that you wanted.

Like, if you remember from the early seasons, Carmy didn't wanna leave.

Carmy wanted Mikey to want him to stay there.

Van LathanHost31:05

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, it's interesting that I'm like, that's a very prickly concept of like, to your point, of like, not just Carmy, but all of them.

Can you let go? Like, are you healthier if you let the family go, if you let the business, if you let the business die? Or do you fight tooth and nail to keep it alive as long as possible?

Van LathanHost31:23

Profound things you're saying there.

Van LathanHost31:24

Forgiveness is unsafe, and it's why people are bad at it, but it's particularly unsafe if you're doing it for the other person.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost31:32

If you're doing it for yourself, then it's not unsafe.

Van LathanHost31:35

It's actually therapy.

Van LathanHost31:36

Um, everyone in this particular family, uh, their safety was together.

Van LathanHost31:44

When they were pulled apart, they realized how unsafe they really were-

Yeah

Van LathanHost31:47

... because they're so intense, what Richie was kinda talking about.

Van LathanHost31:51

With any of these characters now, that's the thing that bothers me.

Van LathanHost31:57

We start this show with Tina talking to her husband.

Van LathanHost32:00

We start the entire season-

Yeah

Van LathanHost32:03

... with Tina talking to her husband, and she's talking about what she stands to lose.

Van LathanHost32:09

Man, that's a really important scene.

Van LathanHost32:12

It's a really important scene because, you know, a show goes away, The Bear comes back every single year, but the show goes away for a little while, and you forget what the show is about.

Van LathanHost32:21

You forget what's supposed to happen.

Van LathanHost32:22

Like, you know, House of the Dragon is back, and I'm like, "Okay, where are we at? What happens? What's going on?" There's a lot that's happening.

Van LathanHost32:28

But when she goes, you know, "This is my family," she doesn't wanna lose them.

Van LathanHost32:32

She doesn't wanna be in a situation where she's not working with them ever again because it won't be like this again.

Van LathanHost32:40

That's what the show is about now.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost32:42

And so all of the stuff that people are talking about, when y- you, you can choose not to forgive your mom if you don't, if you want, but you only got one mom.

Van LathanHost32:52

So if you don't choose to forgive your mom, then you're not choosing to have a mom no more.

Van LathanHost32:57

You can choose not to give it all to the restaurant and give it all to your friends.

Van LathanHost33:00

You can choose to micromanage.

Van LathanHost33:02

You can choose, but once it's gone, it's gone.

Van LathanHost33:04

It's not coming back.

Van LathanHost33:05

Every hug is one less hug.

Van LathanHost33:07

Every day is one less day.

Van LathanHost33:09

So when you're in something and it's good, and it's working, and it feels like it's where you're supposed to be, what are you willing to do? What are you willing to sacrifice, um, both personally and professionally, to stay there? Are you willing to sacrifice money, time? Are you willing to sacrifice years off your life for something that's perfect or something that works for you?

That Tina scene, why I loved it, is I'm like, no one really prepares this for you when you join the workforce.

But I've had jobs like this, where I'm like, I hated the job.

I hated being a fry cook.

But then I'm like, "Damn, I spent three years with y'all." Like, it's, this is a family.

We're never gonna have this.

When I was at Rolling Stone, there was a moment where it was like I felt like Tina, where I'm like, you wait so long to get to this place, and you're working with people who helped get you there.

And the minute you leave, to your point, damn, we never going for work drinks like this.

We could get drinks later, but it's never, we not leaving the same office.

We not fighting the same wars.

I'm gonna have to go do it again.

I'm gonna have to make a new family.

I'm gonna have to use my skills and build this all over.

And I don't know where it's gonna end this season, but it's a fascinating question of like, to your point, I think a lot of the...

I think as important as The Bear is for everyone, Marcus might be better off going to Copenhagen.

When you see Luka, he's like, "Hey, I got my Copenhagen boys coming," like, da da da da da.

He's like, "No, I gotta work here." I had this thought.

I was like, "Marcus, you're the best, like, new chef.

You're like, there's a life out there for you."

Van LathanHost34:51

Oh, yeah.

You probably would be more successful in Copenhagen.

I look at someone like Tina, where I'm like, Tina, you could go work anywhere now.

And it's like that push and pull is a very, very human thing.

Van LathanHost35:01

'Cause you don't know.

Van LathanHost35:02

You don't know if you're, you don't know if it...

Van LathanHost35:05

Maybe what she's describing is comfort.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost35:06

Maybe she needs to be uncomfortable.

Van LathanHost35:08

Maybe this entire run of her life, working at The Beef, uh, changing over and learning new skills at The Bear, is so that she could go and live her best life.

Van LathanHost35:17

You don't know.

Van LathanHost35:17

Or maybe her best life is right inside that restaurant with the leaky pipes.

Van LathanHost35:20

You're not sure.

Van LathanHost35:20

It's scary.

Van LathanHost35:21

All of it's scary.

Van LathanHost35:22

Is the stuff outside the restaurant working for you, like with computer and, uh, the, you know, them going to try to get the permits and, or, like, whatever, and all of that stuff? Is the, is them being the sort of existential threat of The Bear, uh, commerce, money, what has to happen, structures? Legitimately, it's art versus blueprints.

It's not working for me fully, but I will say, as someone, I, one time, I had to, like, go on Good Morning America for some reason, and there was this chef.

And it was, like, before the f- it was before, like, uh, the Super Bowl, and he was, like, teaching.

Like, this is, like, an award-winning chef who had, like, a popping restaurant in New York, and he was teaching all the hosts how to make, like, nachos.

And we're like, s- we're chilling in the back room, and at one point, I go, "Why do you do, why do you do this?" Not, like, looking down on it, but like-

Van LathanHost36:15

Yeah.

And he goes, "Bro, let me tell you.

I've had an award-winning restaurant, packed out, gets closed.

And what I will tell you is I'm like, 'This is the shit you gotta do.'" He's like, "You know where I'm working now?" And I'm like, "Where?" He's like, "I'm working at a hotel." And when I was watching this, I was like, "What?" And he's like, "I have an award-winning restaurant now that I'm the head of that's in a hotel, and you wanna know why? The hotel is basically offsetting everything with this restaurant.

So I get to cook.

I get to make all this fancy shit And in my off time, I go on Good Morning America, I go on the Food Network, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But he's like, "Restaurants are really, really hard in these cities, New York, Chicago, LA, whatever." He's like, "There's a reason why so many great restaurants are attached to hotels." And it was like-

Van LathanHost37:08

Wow

... that was a moment where I'm like, even if this story's not working, I'm like, I was like, "Oh, this is something that's true.

This is something that you could tell the creators," like Story, Calo, all of them are like, have talked to chefs, and are like, "Yeah, this is the evolution of fine da- dining, of all this shit," where it's like, it's the same thing with, um, Ebra and the franchising, where I'm like, yeah, that's the less sexy part of the show to me.

I don't know if it's working, but it is important to have it there because this show is not The Wire.

But there were moments in The Wire where they are, like, showing you the foundation of how this entire thing is built.

Van LathanHost37:51

Yeah.

And I think that's what this show has always been good about, where it's like even if it's not working fully, I'm like, "Oh." I'm like, would Carmy and Sid want to run a version of The Bear that's underneath a hotel?

Van LathanHost38:08

Right.

Would Carmy want to actually franchise this place? Would he be good at it?

Van LathanHost38:13

Right.

Is that so- A- and I'm like, when we even, when you look at careers in, like, Hollywood, I'm just like, damn, every director now got a fucking podcast.

[laughs]

Van LathanHost38:21

Yeah.

Is hawking this, hawking that, and I'm like, I'll ask you, I'll throw it back to you.

Would the show be as realistic if it flinched away from these moments of, like, who owns the building, how much does it cost? 'Cause I've also talked with people who have owned restaurants before.

It's like, people don't wanna buy restaurants.

It's a, it's a fucking crapshoot.

Like, not just owning a restaurant, but, like, the building of, like, there's oil, there's water, there's leaks, there's just, like, there are fucking fire hazards.

Van LathanHost38:48

Yeah.

Like, it's just like.

Van LathanHost38:48

Yeah.

So yeah, to answer your question, eh, a little bit.

But what is working about this season, I will say, I'm so glad we don't have celebrity cameos.

Van LathanHost38:57

We haven't as of yet.

As of yet.

Van LathanHost39:00

Yeah.

I think it has upped my appreciation, 'cause I'm just like, "Guys, this is a family.

This is a sitcom at the end of the day."

Van LathanHost39:07

Yeah.

I enjoy spending time with our people in this kitchen.

And to your point, I think when it's, like, about everything outside, 'cause I was, I don't know if you watched it, I watched the Gary episode.

Van LathanHost39:19

Mm-hmm.

With, um, with Ebon Moss-Bachrach and, um, and Mikey-

Van LathanHost39:24

Jon Bern- Jon Bernthal

... yeah, and Jon Bernthal.

Van LathanHost39:27

Yeah.

Good episode.

I'm glad that they did not tack it onto the season.

Van LathanHost39:32

Right.

In a final season, I want it to be about Carmy, Sid, Richie, like, Tina, Marcus, like, in this fucking kitchen.

Van LathanHost39:43

I think you're right.

Van LathanHost39:44

And I think what you said earlier about the show being this indie darling and being up against all of these big, huge streaming shows on Marvel, Disney+, whatever, um, and it cutting through is kind of like when your favorite band has that one gigantic song, you know? And then it's like, [laughs] it's funny.

Van LathanHost40:08

No Doubt, their first album comes out and it doesn't do anything.

Ah.

Van LathanHost40:13

And then they drop Tragic Kingdom, and I think Tragic Kingdom sold like 13 million albums or something like that.

Van LathanHost40:18

They go crazy.

Yep.

Van LathanHost40:19

So eventually you get to the point to where, like, you know, No Doubt records are being produced by Timbaland and stuff, you know.

Van LathanHost40:26

And that's not, that's not a diss to Timbaland, that's just saying that, like, o- o- once you get big, you feel like you gotta stay big.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost40:36

And how do you do that? Well, that's where you get a John Cena ca- cameo.

Van LathanHost40:39

I thought the Brie Larson stuff really worked, but, uh, even still.

Van LathanHost40:42

Even some of the episodes that we don't look at as cameos, like all the family stuff, it's like, look at all these people are on The Bear.

Van LathanHost40:47

And not only that, but those people, um, uh, those people want to be on The Bear now, because The Bear is not just a show that, uh, that is, is a, is star-making for the people that are on the show.

Van LathanHost41:01

It's a show that if you go on the show, it's star-making, it rejuvenates your star.

Yeah.

Van LathanHost41:06

Like, it got to a point to where Seinfeld made a bunch of stars.

Van LathanHost41:10

Then y- it was a big deal for stars to go on Seinfeld, to go on Friends, to go on The Cosby Show.

Van LathanHost41:16

It becomes something that's, is the home for big stars.

Van LathanHost41:20

That works better other places than it does on a show like this, because it's so intimate.

Van LathanHost41:25

It's so many people in so many rooms, and they're talking so much.

Van LathanHost41:30

And when John Cena's talking to me, John Cena's talking to me, right? But when Jeremy Allen White is talking to me, Carmy's talking to me.

But-

Van LathanHost41:37

And that's what's important.

But I think, and this is the gift of the curse, when they revealed Bernthal was Mikey, that worked.

Van LathanHost41:44

Well, yeah, because Bernthal is different.

Van LathanHost41:46

Like, when, when they, when they reveal Bernthal as Mikey, first of all, that, it's a little different.

Van LathanHost41:51

Bernthal is a guy that, like, is such a, he's doing a good job in his career in being Jon Bernthal, but in also being whoever he is, because he is such a character actor.

Van LathanHost42:03

Bernthal plays leads.

Van LathanHost42:05

He plays on the side of people.

Van LathanHost42:08

He can slip into something like this and slip back out, and not dominate or take over.

Van LathanHost42:12

It's Jon Bernthal as a part of this.

Van LathanHost42:14

So he is, that's a good point, but he is a unique actor and a unique talent in that you can orient a story around him, or you can just sprinkle him on top and make his sh- make your shit better or make your shit bat- batshit crazy, depending on what he wants to do.

Van LathanHost42:29

Like, and so-

But when you have Mulaney, I thought Mulaney is great in the fishes episode.

He's so funny.

Van LathanHost42:34

Right.

But I'm like, that's Brie Larson and that's Mulaney.

Like, and you were like-

Van LathanHost42:38

Yeah, yeah.

Van LathanHost42:39

The, the, yeah, that's the, the, you know, it's different.

Van LathanHost42:40

And, like, once again, this show also has so many smaller brilliant characters.

Van LathanHost42:47

The Facts, like, are such great characters-

Yeah

Van LathanHost42:51

... and fit into this world so well.

Van LathanHost42:52

You want more of those guys.

Van LathanHost42:53

You don't wanna sacrifice Any time with those guys for anybody else that you're used to seeing on Instagram or something.

Ibra, that was when I laughed.

When Ibra kept going, when he started, he's like, "I'm so fucking..." [laughs] When he said, "I'm not gonna be intimidated by his blue eyes." [laughs]

Van LathanHost43:06

Right.

Van LathanHost43:07

Yes.

Van LathanHost43:07

I al-

Like, that, [laughs] I was like, "I love it."

Van LathanHost43:09

Um, also the Carmy-Syd dynamic, which I feel like the show was sacrificing, is really working again in this season.

Van LathanHost43:17

It's back to almost, like, first season Carmy-Syd vibes.

That's why I like these first four episodes, when they- even that moment where she's like, "Can you give me a little space?"

Van LathanHost43:24

Yeah.

"A little more space."

Van LathanHost43:26

Right.

No, like, g- I was just like-

Van LathanHost43:27

Right

...

these two.

And it's like a big thing, part of this was like, oh, are they in love, this and that.

And I'm like, no, I think what people were actually reading into is that those two performa- performers, Jeremy Allen White and Ayo, have such chemistry.

Van LathanHost43:41

They have great chemistry.

They can hold the camera and it's like, I think that's, even when people think about their, like, movie careers, I'm just like, what we were actually seeing in those first f- that first two seasons of The Bear is, like, something magical that almost, that is so hard to happen, where it's like, damn, it is so hard to find two actors who are this effortless together, where you feel like not only they the characters, these people have known each other for a lifetime.

And that's actually, if we wrap up, that's what I will end up missing about The Bear, which is, like, we could talk about the ups, the middling, the downs or whatever, where I'm like, I can't think of that many shows in this streaming era w- who produced this many characters where I'm like, "I love Richie.

I love Carmen." [laughs]

Van LathanHost44:30

Right.

Like, facts.

Like, these are characters where I'm like, damn.

Van LathanHost44:34

Mm.

They family.

Van LathanHost44:35

They family.

Cousins.

All right, guys.

Van LathanHost44:37

Whoo.

That has been our first, uh, episode for the last season of The Bear.

We're gonna be back with the next, uh, four episodes very, very soon.

Make sure you tap in with Joe and Rob, because they will be continuing their coverage of Cape Fear this weekend.

And a special shout-out, as always.

I wanna say this.

Kai, our producer, dog, he's too big for us now.

They got this motherfucker on The Watch.

Van LathanHost45:03

Yeah, Kai fucked us up.

You know what I'm saying?

Van LathanHost45:04

Yeah.

They got him on Prestige.

He won't even pick up my phone calls no more.

Van LathanHost45:08

Um, well, look, I'll tell you this, Kai.

[laughs]

Van LathanHost45:10

Uh, never forget where you come from.

Top Ranking.

[laughs] We'll see y'all later.

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