Why the Kirkpatrick Model Isn't an L&D Tool — It's a Business Model with Jawad Ahmed

In this episode of The Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa sits down in person with Jawad Ahmed, a longtime Kirkpatrick Partners affiliate and director at C2C in India, for a candid conversation about how the Kirkpatrick Model travels — and sometimes gets lost — across borders. Jawad shares what changed for him the moment he was certified in 2015, the myth he hears most often from HR and L&D professionals, and why so many organizations still stall out before reaching Level 3 and Level 4 of the Kirkpatrick Four Levels®. The conversation turns to India's fast-growing learning and development market, the rise of Global Capability Centers, and where artificial intelligence is — and isn't — making a dent in evaluation today. Vanessa and Jawad also dig into what it takes to move a leader from a check-the-box mindset to real investment in outcomes, and why that shift starts with understanding what's actually on a leader's dashboard. Takeaways: •       The Kirkpatrick Model is a business model, not just an L&D framework. •       Most L&D professionals believe they know the model — most haven't seen it applied. •       AI has transformed Levels 1 and 2 of evaluation. Levels 3 and 4 still require a human-led system. •       Real partnership with the business starts before a training program ever begins. Learn more about building a culture of evaluation at kirkpatrickpartners.com.   ### **Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment** Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment and get clarity on your next step. ### **Building a Culture of Evaluation** Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now **Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence** Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply **Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs.** We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more ### **Kirkpatrick Collective** If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. **#KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel**