EP 56 - Former Tunisian Prime Minister Youssef Chahed on Governance, the Arab Spring, and Lessons Learned

I mean, looking at Egypt, for example, you have poverty, poverty, uh, rates that are nearly 40%, perhaps even higher.

And so it comes off as even sometimes ridiculous if someone, uh, demands just democracy outright, considering that, you know, there are a lot of, uh, things that need to, to, to, uh, come first.

But then again, how you attain and, and sustain an economy, an economy that's sustainable, an economy in which there is high levels of, of trust.

I personally think that democracy is a requirement, considering that dictatorships are not, uh, they are stable until they're not.

Whereas when you have democracy, where you have participation, where you have, uh, real institutions, the rule of law and so forth, uh, I believe that's one of the only ways really that you could attain a sustainable economy.

And so I wanted to ask you, what do you think of this assessment?

The economic aspect, of course, is important.

Maybe it helped to, it helped the democracy to survive longer, I would say.

But then democracy is not responsible about, uh, of the, including in Tunisia now I'm talking, uh, of a bad economic situation or social situation.

Of course, many anti-democratic political parties or politician may make the link saying, "Look, if your condition are bad, it is because of this democratic system that blah, blah, blah," et cetera.

Of course, there was huge difficulties in Tunisia in order to implement this new system after so many years of dictatorship.

But let me say the global idea is that countries living under democracy perform better than under auto- autocracy.

This you can compare historically, uh, GDP or GDP per capita, and it should be, you should find something clear in that.

But then, of course, the economic, uh, uh, I mean, the economic point is very important.

And Tunisia, when the Arab Spring started, if you go back to 2010 and 2011, and if you look to the, uh, modernization theory or democratization theories, et cetera, many of the scholars at that time expected that the experience will not succeed because the income was very low.

Tunisia income per capita was around four or $5,000, which is not meeting the pre-required condition for a successful democracy.

But then there was a lot of enthusiasm, and the 10 years, as you mentioned, that, where the democracy survived showed that it's not only about economy or, uh, a- and I, again, I believe that the Tunisian democracy collapsed not for economic reason, and I give you the best proof for that.

You can just compare the economic situation now compared to the situation during the democratic period.

So if democracy is responsible about that, what about now? You know, if you compare the, I mean, everything, uh, is deteriorating, you know, in term of economic indicators, et cetera, today compared to the, uh, including, you know, uh, we, w- w- I mean, if you compare the price of, I don't, you know, simple commodities like, uh, the, the kil- the kilogram of beef or...

It was multiplied by two or three, you know, compared to w- what is called in democratic, d- d- dark decade by, by some people.

So demo- so democracy is not responsible about, uh, of the econom- of the bad economic situation.

Many use that as an argument in electoral, including in election.

You know, I remember in 2019 election when I was candidate, I mean, all my, uh, uh, opponent were saying the economy is disaster, et cetera.

Today, the economy is in m- I mean, much, uh, difficult situation, but they are not saying anything, you know.

At that time, they were able to speak.