Plain English with Derek Thompson
Feb 27, 2026 · 1 hr 4 min · 10 segments
The modern world swims in numbers: work metrics, fitness metrics, health metrics, social media metrics. Sometimes the quantification of life can make things better. But very often, I think they force…
C. Thi NguyenGuest
Derek ThompsonHost
[laughing] Um, rock climbing is one of the best things that's ever happened to me in my life.
Um, and I think it's particularly, like, beautiful to me and interesting to me 'cause I'm so bad at it.
I mean, part of what happened was I was one of these people, I grew up playing computer games and reading, and I was like, "Life of the mind! Screw the body," and I hated everything about embodiment.
Actually, what happened first was I tried to learn to surf, and I found out that seasick asthmatics should not try to surf.
So I had this image in my mind where climbing was, like, muscle bros screaming like Arnold Schwarzenegger, just, like, hauling themselves.
I thought it was, like, a pure muscle thing, and I found out that it was completely wrong, that rock climbing is this, like, delicate balance sport.
Um, what I found out was that it was, uh, kinda like solving logic-... puzzles with your body-
-in yoga, right? Like, you have to find your way through, and I think the really interesting thing to me, um, was how much the scoring system in rock climbing mattered to me.
That wall was partly because I'm busy, partly for my own athletic cap, and partly because I became a parent, and I just couldn't advance.
And when I kept to the scoring system of climbing, I became miserable, right? I kept trying to advance to the next level, and I just couldn't.
And I ended up having to- I mean, first I got depressed, and I- like, the main thing that was keeping me happy was now miserable, and I kept doing it for a while miserably, and then I finally started reformulating it to myself.
And I was inspired by other people who would say things like, "Oh, you know," like, especially some older climbers, they're like, "Oh, I don't do difficult anymore.
[laughing] Um, rock climbing is one of the best things that's ever happened to me in my life.
Um, and I think it's particularly, like, beautiful to me and interesting to me 'cause I'm so bad at it.
I mean, part of what happened was I was one of these people, I grew up playing computer games and reading, and I was like, "Life of the mind! Screw the body," and I hated everything about embodiment.
Actually, what happened first was I tried to learn to surf, and I found out that seasick asthmatics should not try to surf.
So I had this image in my mind where climbing was, like, muscle bros screaming like Arnold Schwarzenegger, just, like, hauling themselves.
I thought it was, like, a pure muscle thing, and I found out that it was completely wrong, that rock climbing is this, like, delicate balance sport.
Um, what I found out was that it was, uh, kinda like solving logic-... puzzles with your body-
-in yoga, right? Like, you have to find your way through, and I think the really interesting thing to me, um, was how much the scoring system in rock climbing mattered to me.
That wall was partly because I'm busy, partly for my own athletic cap, and partly because I became a parent, and I just couldn't advance.
And when I kept to the scoring system of climbing, I became miserable, right? I kept trying to advance to the next level, and I just couldn't.
And I ended up having to- I mean, first I got depressed, and I- like, the main thing that was keeping me happy was now miserable, and I kept doing it for a while miserably, and then I finally started reformulating it to myself.
And I was inspired by other people who would say things like, "Oh, you know," like, especially some older climbers, they're like, "Oh, I don't do difficult anymore.
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