Jul 9, 2026 · 32 min · 10 segments
Across the world, a familiar story is being retold with striking success: that stagnant wages, housing crises and crumbling public services are the fault of migrants and outsiders - not the…
Sara PantulianoHost
Tania CheungGuest
Libby LenkinskiGuest
Kathryn Nwajiaku-DahouGuest
Dimi ReiderGuest
Actually, on that, I'm going to come to Dimi because obviously we've talked about how narratives take hold, but narratives are not inevitable.
I mean, a bit like Libby is pointing to, you know, they are made, they're reinforced, they're sustained.
But what... can actually disrupt a dominant or harmful narrative like the one we just heard about? I mean, is it better evidence? Is it alternative storytellers? Is it political leadership, in fact, or something else? And what tends to fail?
But I'll probably sum it up between Tania's and Libby's answers as resonance and dissonance are two openings.
Like when things resonate, when somebody sees a person in Malawi struggling with very similar mental health issues to what they've experienced in their family, that breaks down the barrier and you can work with that.
When someone is confronted or encounters on their own something that doesn't make sense and that's a dissonance, that's an opening.
I'm thinking of the poor boy who was the photograph of the poor refugee boy who was washed up and sleeping, you know, in the same position, seemingly sleeping in the same position and people created art showing him in the same position as he was dead on the beach but in a cot.
And that created like a whole new momentum on the question of immigration that, you know, no momentum lasts forever and then came a backlash.
But this dissonance of like, this isn't a statistic, this is a kid, like our kids.
Most of the successful communication, I think, whether it's diplomacy or PR or campaigning, Mamdani is one great example.
And that's already once you've done that, you're already a good long way towards actually effecting change.
But could I just add as well, I mean, I think it's also the product of work.
Actually, on that, I'm going to come to Dimi because obviously we've talked about how narratives take hold, but narratives are not inevitable.
I mean, a bit like Libby is pointing to, you know, they are made, they're reinforced, they're sustained.
But what... can actually disrupt a dominant or harmful narrative like the one we just heard about? I mean, is it better evidence? Is it alternative storytellers? Is it political leadership, in fact, or something else? And what tends to fail?
But I'll probably sum it up between Tania's and Libby's answers as resonance and dissonance are two openings.
Like when things resonate, when somebody sees a person in Malawi struggling with very similar mental health issues to what they've experienced in their family, that breaks down the barrier and you can work with that.
When someone is confronted or encounters on their own something that doesn't make sense and that's a dissonance, that's an opening.
I'm thinking of the poor boy who was the photograph of the poor refugee boy who was washed up and sleeping, you know, in the same position, seemingly sleeping in the same position and people created art showing him in the same position as he was dead on the beach but in a cot.
And that created like a whole new momentum on the question of immigration that, you know, no momentum lasts forever and then came a backlash.
But this dissonance of like, this isn't a statistic, this is a kid, like our kids.
Most of the successful communication, I think, whether it's diplomacy or PR or campaigning, Mamdani is one great example.
And that's already once you've done that, you're already a good long way towards actually effecting change.
But could I just add as well, I mean, I think it's also the product of work.
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