But how can these deeper cultural narratives shape the policy space then? And what does it take to shift them in ways that can enable more just and equitable outcomes?

Thank you.

I mean, I think it's fantastic that ODI has embarked upon this journey to take narratives more seriously and center narratives as an important part of its work.

I mean, I think it's clear that evidence alone will not cut it because that evidence lands in a narrative universe that has questioned the relevance of evidence, questioned the relevance of expertise.

So the kind of shift we need is not one that is communicational, as you said, but one which is embedded in the very way we think about change and the very way in which we see research as part of an effort to bring about that change.

Because first of all, a few things.

We've talked about narrative, we've talked about culture, we've talked about stories.

It can come in a lot of different kinds of packages, as long as we know that that's the thing that we're after.