Oct 6, 2026 · 47 min · 12 segments
Brett sits down with author T. Geronimo Johnson to discuss his latest book, 'The Occidental Book of the Dead'. They talk race, how narratives define our reality, the slow march of progress, writing…
T. Geronimo JohnsonGuest
Brett BennerHost
Yeah, and the other thing that I kept thinking about so much while reading this, and it kind of speaks in relation to what you're just talking about now, is Isabel Wilkerson's Caste and kind of that net of all of it for everyone.
But I do think looking at these relationships that he has in this book and anyone's awareness of where they fit in this social structure, whether they know it or not.
Well, I'm thinking specifically of the relationship between white people and Black people-
I mean, I have friends who are Black, and I, uh, I think about this when we're together and going into conversations that feel delicate.
I, I think a lot about, especially about when we were all in lockdown and we were-
... all at home and watching George Floyd, and we were having these big conversations about all this, and then having conversations with friends of mine who are white and just the levels of understanding or not understanding or how deep-rooted things actually are.
I think one of the brilliant things that you do is, and this is not a surprise, we're not giving anything away, that the novel is really almost two parts.
The first part being this kind of idealized cinematic idea of George Washington Johnson, and then it breaks into the second part, which is really his version of the story, which is something parallel.
And at the time going through it, it's almost like I couldn't see the forest through the trees yet, if that makes sense.
And then getting into the second half of it, the clarity that started to come through, it was literally the blinders coming off your eyes, if that makes sense.
Well, this is definitely one of the, the aims of the, the structure, to create the possibility that someone might Just become more aware of the extent to which we're all influenced by the, the narratives that we encounter.
And, you know, the funny thing about narratives is we think about books and, you know, for a while, for a while this word was kind of parked at the academy, but it's, like, broken out.
It's, it's everywhere, you know? And, but the thing is when we think about narratives, we still think often about books, f- films, maybe country music, but we encounter them in commercials, right?
Yeah, and the other thing that I kept thinking about so much while reading this, and it kind of speaks in relation to what you're just talking about now, is Isabel Wilkerson's Caste and kind of that net of all of it for everyone.
But I do think looking at these relationships that he has in this book and anyone's awareness of where they fit in this social structure, whether they know it or not.
Well, I'm thinking specifically of the relationship between white people and Black people-
I mean, I have friends who are Black, and I, uh, I think about this when we're together and going into conversations that feel delicate.
I, I think a lot about, especially about when we were all in lockdown and we were-
... all at home and watching George Floyd, and we were having these big conversations about all this, and then having conversations with friends of mine who are white and just the levels of understanding or not understanding or how deep-rooted things actually are.
I think one of the brilliant things that you do is, and this is not a surprise, we're not giving anything away, that the novel is really almost two parts.
The first part being this kind of idealized cinematic idea of George Washington Johnson, and then it breaks into the second part, which is really his version of the story, which is something parallel.
And at the time going through it, it's almost like I couldn't see the forest through the trees yet, if that makes sense.
And then getting into the second half of it, the clarity that started to come through, it was literally the blinders coming off your eyes, if that makes sense.
Well, this is definitely one of the, the aims of the, the structure, to create the possibility that someone might Just become more aware of the extent to which we're all influenced by the, the narratives that we encounter.
And, you know, the funny thing about narratives is we think about books and, you know, for a while, for a while this word was kind of parked at the academy, but it's, like, broken out.
It's, it's everywhere, you know? And, but the thing is when we think about narratives, we still think often about books, f- films, maybe country music, but we encounter them in commercials, right?
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