‘Cape Fear’ Episode 5: The Lawyer's Secret

[upbeat music] Today, summer belongs to the Super

Your powers are gonna start kicking in right about now.

This does not look like this is gonna end well for you guys.

Joanna RobinsonHost0:12

You're Savage, I knew it.

Supergirl arrives.

What's Superman like?

He sees the good in everyone.

And I see the truth.

[laughs] We haven't formally introduced-

Call me.

DC Supergirl, now playing only in theaters.

Get tickets now.

[upbeat music] Chez Desjardins Assurance on a une offre solide pour les entreprises en construction.

Obtenez un rabais en regroupant vos assurances véhicules commerciaux et entreprises avec nous.

Oh, solide.

Demandez une soumission.

Certaines conditions, exclusions et limitations peuvent s'appliquer.

[upbeat music]

Joanna RobinsonHost1:04

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV Podcast Feed.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:06

I'm Joya Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:08

We're here today to talk to you about Cape Fear.

What could go wrong?

Joanna RobinsonHost1:11

What could possibly go wrong? Um, programming announcements.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:15

Our pals, Van and Charles, are rounding out their multi-year coverage of The Bear.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:19

If you're listening to this episode, one episode, uh, covering The Bear already exists in this feed, and then the other episode will drop on Monday.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:26

So Van and Charles will be here for all your Bear needs.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:30

Uh, and we thank them for their service.

Who do you think is the sous chef in that arrangement, in, in the Van-Charles dynamic? Like, who's, who's really taking lead on that thing?

Joanna RobinsonHost1:37

Um, V- Van would have you believe it's Charles, but I think it's actually Van.

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:42

Uh, "Yes, chef" to Charles Holmes always.

It could be.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:45

Emails from the listeners.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:46

Where can folks reach us, uh, if they have thoughts about Cape Fear?

Thank you for asking.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:50

Yeah.

They can always reach us at prestigetv@spotify.com.

Joanna RobinsonHost1:52

Okay.

Clean, simple, just email any time.

Or if you're emailing about Cape Fear-

Joanna RobinsonHost1:57

Hmm

... you should definitely be emailing thinkofababycarrot@gmail.com.

These toes are not gonna jar themselves.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:03

Tss, I've always said that.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:05

Um, shout-out to our listener Tim, who sent us a Savannah-centric care package.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:10

We got it sort of mere moments before we started recording, so we will be digging into it in next week's episode but-

Are we gonna dig into it like a truffle pig?

Joanna RobinsonHost2:19

I, I prefer not-

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost2:20

... to do anything like a truffle pig.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:22

Thank you so much for asking, Rob.

Sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:24

Um, our listener Eli wrote in on actually one of my favorite subjects, which is who is allowed to use an Apple product in this show-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost2:32

... and who is not allowed to use an Apple product.

Very important.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:34

So in case folks don't know, Apple has had a rule that if you are using an Apple product in the movie, the bad guys are not allowed to use Macs or iPhones, et cetera, et cetera, um, which is just, like, actually genuinely hilarious.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:49

[laughs] Like, lest anyone think that Apple itself is evil because Javier Bardem is using it-

No

Joanna RobinsonHost2:54

...

Joanna RobinsonHost2:54

in this show or something like that.

The Blue Bubble Gang is not a real gang, is what they would like to say.

Joanna RobinsonHost2:58

[laughs] So-

I think there, there have been exceptions though.

Haven't there been a couple times-

Joanna RobinsonHost3:01

A, a, a few

... where the line is fudged a little bit?

Joanna RobinsonHost3:03

Yeah, but sometimes if you're watching a show and you're like, "Is this person evil or not?" The hint is sometimes are they using an Android or not?

True to life.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:10

Anyway, Eli wrote in and he said...

Joanna RobinsonHost3:11

Wow.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost3:12

The Apple agenda.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:14

Uh, Eli wrote in to say, "We have, uh, we have most of the characters using iPhones and MacBooks except for Max's phone, which I assume is because they don't wanna show an iPhone being cloned.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:23

But they are willing to let voice memos apps be used surreptitiously.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:26

Do you think that Apple has been more lax about letting, quote, 'evil characters' use their products, especially in their own shows?" This is an Apple TV show.

It's true.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:34

I noted in this episode when Natalie is in vain texting her pal Amber, AKA Neveah-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost3:40

... those are green bubbles.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:41

So I think Amber does not have an iPhone.

Well, or she's blocked her.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:45

Tough.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:46

Really tough.

I mean, look, as I understand it, double texting already-

Joanna RobinsonHost3:50

I've never been blocked.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:51

Have you been blocked?

I haven't, but I think that's what happens, no?

Joanna RobinsonHost3:54

Oh my God, the bubbles go green?

I think they go green.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:56

Tough.

Joanna RobinsonHost3:56

[laughs]

It's the, it's, it's the most brutal sign of all.

But as I understand it, the double text already is a sign of desperation.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:02

Oh, of course.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:03

No, no, the wall of text-

This is-

Joanna RobinsonHost4:04

... on one side of the text exchange

... sextuple texting.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:07

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:08

Really tough look for Nat.

After, we should note, Zach has already revealed at least that he knows some information or who- I mean, we'll get into all that.

Anna has told Nat also, "This is not, this girl is not who she says she is," and here's Nat.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:20

It's not her name.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:22

She's Max Katie's kid.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:24

She's been doing s- she's been tasting something that belongs to your brother.

Yep.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:28

And Nat's like-

She thinks your nipples taste the same

Joanna RobinsonHost4:31

... as whatever it is, uh, on your brother's body.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:34

And, uh, and Nat's like, "I should text her." [laughs] "I should reach out."

Love does persist.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:40

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost4:41

Uh, someone who signed their email C-R-L wrote in and says, "As an attorney, I, I just can't fathom that Anna doesn't know about Max's half-sister, if that is who Juliette Lewis actually is." And we got a little bit more evidence one way or another inside of this episode.

Did we?

Joanna RobinsonHost4:57

I said one way or another.

I'm still... [laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost5:00

[laughs] I said one way or another.

So evidence of something.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:02

In- information.

Yes, we got information.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:04

Um, when, uh, this letter goes on, "When defending him, his family would've been the first stop for interviews.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:10

You wanna know who, who in his family is alive, who isn't, what do they know? Can they corroborate anything that's helpful for you? Can they hurt your case or help it? You would 100% at least speak to any living members, especially immediate family, so that you could either utilize them as a character witness or be prepared for how prosecution could use them/discredit them.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:27

So yes, Tom should know about her too.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:29

P.S. are we locking that gate yet?" We've got a lot of emails about this where they're just like, "Mark Maron style, lock the gates.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:36

Why are we not locking the gates of this particular household?" So, uh-

Very simple solution

Joanna RobinsonHost5:39

... great question.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:41

Uh-

The lawyers overall, I would say, not thrilled with Cape Fear.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:45

Oh, really? Uh, uh-

We've just been getting a lot of emails about what lawyers should and shouldn't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:50

Yeah.

The way that cases are reversed and people are released from prison or not-

Joanna RobinsonHost5:53

Hmm

... or exonerated or not, and on what timelines.

Let's just say it's all been expedited.

Joanna RobinsonHost5:58

Okay, this is not a profoundly legally accurate show, is what you're saying?

Not yet.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:02

Unlike something like Boston Legal or something like that?

I mean, not.

Who, who are we to challenge his credibility?

Joanna RobinsonHost6:06

That's great.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:07

Okay.

SVU, unimpeachable.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:08

[laughs] Chris wrote in to say- Chris addresses his email to Trash or Piece Robinson and Cuck Shadow Mahoney.

Wow.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost6:17

How do you feel about that? [laughs]

I have no choice but to accept it, I guess.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:20

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:21

I love the pod.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:21

Thank you so much.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:22

Uh, "Inspired by your prompt, I'm here to talk on-screen Southern accents.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:26

Wow, do they typically suck, ranging from forgettably off to I guess we gotta fight now.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:31

On Cape Fear, Amy Adams is failing us.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:34

This glorious fail show most of all herself." He says P.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:38

Will, Patrick Wilson.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:40

"Patrick Wilson's dipping in and out of what I'll call folkscent, a half measure of dropped Gs and slower pace.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:47

Most of my worst peers in singer-songwriterdom adopt this in to indicate folksiness in lieu of actual Southernness." There is, uh, this is just me now.

Joanna RobinsonHost6:56

There is one specific dropped G in this episode.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:00

Can I just do my, like, earliest, my, my really early, uh, most bizarre line reading?

Of course.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:05

I'm not even sure this is my final, uh, choice, but when our fave, Lexi, says microdosing.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:13

[laughs]

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost7:16

Like, I'm thinking of changing the card of the coursework from microdosing to microdosing.

I think we should.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:21

Yeah, pretty great.

Apostrophe mandatory.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:24

[laughs] All right.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:25

Erica wrote in to say, "Was thinking as I was listening to your most recent Trash or Piece Theater recap of Cape Fear," it's catching on, sweeping the nation around.

It really is.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:32

When Zach-

Let's hope Cuck Shadow doesn't.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:34

[laughs] "When Zach says that Sofia doesn't know the full story, is it possible Neveah somehow had access to Sofia's pics and sent them from Zach? We know that she, Neveah, is pretty tech-savvy with the wifi jammer and chatting secretively via games, and if Amy Adams can mirror Zach's phone so easily, why can't Neveah? She seems pretty hell-bent on destroying from within and is not shy about considering violence, i.e.

Joanna RobinsonHost7:56

brandishing a knife when Callie's dad came home." Our listener Kevin also wrote in to say, and I think we had a couple comments to this regard-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost8:04

...

Joanna RobinsonHost8:04

when, when Zach is listening, it's a conversation with Sofia, right? He's having-

He is having a conversation with her

Joanna RobinsonHost8:09

... a conversation with Sofia, but a l- a lot of our listeners were like, "Was that actually Sofia?"

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:14

"Or was that sort of an AI Sofia?" And then in this episode we get voice memo, AI voice memos from Tom.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:21

So-

No, I think it's straight up voicemail.

It's like a, a voicemail box.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:25

Oh, it's a voicemail box.

I think it was a voicemail left overnight.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:28

Oh, I thought it was a voice memo.

And it's, like, left on her screen as if it's a voicemail from Tom's number.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:32

Right.

So either the number has been spoofed or someone had access to his phone, and certainly-

Joanna RobinsonHost8:35

Yeah

...

he wasn't the one saying that he's a man, I'm gonna stick up for her and stop-

Joanna RobinsonHost8:38

Right

... rubbing against me, et cetera.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:39

Rub, brushing up against me, see what, you'll see what happens.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost8:41

Yeah.

See, I, I also had this thought about last week's episode as we were going through it and gonna talk-

Joanna RobinsonHost8:46

Yeah

... about it.

I was like, is this a thing, or to be totally frank, did this actress who's playing Sofia just make, like, a weird acting choice at the m-

Joanna RobinsonHost8:54

Well-

At SCAD?

Joanna RobinsonHost8:55

Yeah, 'cause Kevin says, "If you look at that art gallery scene closely, Sofia seemed embarrassed her mom and brother were being so aggressive in public."

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:01

"She certainly doesn't wanna speak to Zach, but she doesn't seem to have any interest in being mean to him or torturing him, which is what that phone call was all about.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:08

Plus, some of the language in the phone call strangely mirrored what we heard in the chat in the pool that Zach had with his dad.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:13

This distinction of being a, quote, 'good or bad person,' and why Zach needed to be forgiven.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:18

Then, quote, Sofia spe- specifically saying, 'I will never forgive you.' We already know that Neveah is almost certainly hacking things in and around the house.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:25

Is she even recording any conversations too?" So could that, uh, phone call, voicemail, whatever, from Sofia have been faked? Certainly.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:34

I, you know, and the fact that, like, Zach goes from that directly to, "I need to see you," to Neveah, it's, like, the perfect thing to push-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost9:42

... him into her clutches, I guess, what we're saying.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:44

So I'm not...

Joanna RobinsonHost9:46

At first I was like, "I'm not sure," and then this episode happened when we get the AI Patrick Wilson-

For sure

Joanna RobinsonHost9:50

... dropping Gs and all, and I was like, "Oh, no."

It's definitive, and also-

Joanna RobinsonHost9:54

Everything's on the table, man

...

I mean, just bad news for us.

Joanna RobinsonHost9:56

[laughs]

As two people who have spoken professionally into microphones a lot-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:00

Oh, no

... you even more, you much more than me, but I mean-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:02

Oh, they've got my full vocal range

... that's the thing.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:04

They know what it sounds like when I'm tired, when I've got a head cold.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:07

Like, it's tough for me out here, honestly.

I think we have said enough random shit into these microphones-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:13

Yeah

...

they could really piece together any sentence they want.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:15

Oh, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:15

They've got Cuck Shadow from both of us.

I, I-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:17

So, you know?

What horror things could you unveil-

Joanna RobinsonHost10:20

[laughs]

... just from us saying Cuck Shadow repeatedly into a mic?

Joanna RobinsonHost10:22

All right.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:23

This episode is called Faith.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:25

Any thoughts about why it's called Faith? Oh, we-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost10:27

... we meet a character called Faith who dies.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:29

[laughs]

I mean, we, we do literally meet Faith.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:30

Just remember that.

And, and we meet Faith pulling up her, like, favorite televangelist sermon.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:36

Do you have a favorite televangelist sermon?

You know I don't.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:38

Okay.

Um, I would say the closest...

Wait, what, do you have, like, a YouTube comfort video? Do you have, like, something you pull up regularly or just recurringly in your life where it's like, you know what? I need a little lift today.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:48

I have a, I have, like, two, two of my favorite songs of all time-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost10:52

... only exist in, like, YouTube format.

Joanna RobinsonHost10:55

So I, I will, like, listen to them.

Do you wanna sh- shout me out? What we got?

Joanna RobinsonHost10:59

[laughs] There's-

You're gonna leave me hanging?

Joanna RobinsonHost11:02

Indiana University-

Okay

Joanna RobinsonHost11:04

... has an acapella group called-

Now, now I see why you stopped short

Joanna RobinsonHost11:07

... called, called Straight No Chaser.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:10

Their version of the song Worlds Apart, I'm gonna play it for you later-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost11:13

... is one of the best things I've ever heard in my life.

I can't wait.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:15

Tell me your comfort video and why it's better than Indiana University's acapella group.

I think it'll be self-explanatory why it's better.

Uh, mine is a video of Beyonce-

Joanna RobinsonHost11:24

Oh

... singing Halo.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:25

That is better.

In, I wanna say it's, like, a break room at a hospital.

It's like they've gathered-

Joanna RobinsonHost11:29

Mm

... a bunch of nurses and doctors at this hospital.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:32

Yeah.

And it's just, like, the single most breathtaking acapella vocal performance.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:37

But they're both acapella.

I mean, they are acapella.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:40

Rob.

So I guess they're the same.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:41

They're not the same.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:41

[laughs]

They could, they could be the same.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:43

Yours has Beyonce.

But it's like, you know what? Let's just dial that back up again.

And the algorithm knows and just tries to reheat it and serve it back to me all the time.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:49

Can I just tell you that YouTube now just has that video at the top when I, like, open YouTube.

Joanna RobinsonHost11:53

It's just that video waiting for me, and they're like, "You wanna hear it again, don't you?" And I do.

You've had too many bad days.

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost11:58

[laughs]

That's not a good sign.

That's a cry for help.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:01

Hey, okay, listen.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:03

Follow-up question about Faith's house.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:06

What is the highest number of candles you've ever had lit in your house at any given time?

You know, I was thinking about this when I re-watched Romeo and Juliet recently.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:15

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:15

[laughs]

Where the Bosworth Romeo and Juliet-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:17

Oh

... and they go into the family mausoleum.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:19

Don't worry.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:19

You don't need to specify.

I hope not.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:20

Yeah.

But at the end, like in the mausoleum scene, I mean, there are- I would imagine thousands of candles lit.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:25

Uh-huh.

And I was like, "Why don't I do this?"

Joanna RobinsonHost12:26

Yeah.

You know? Why-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:27

But also, who did that? And you have to sort of like...

Joanna RobinsonHost12:29

I mean, obviously a PA did that, but like, uh-

Yeah.

But how many takes? Those candles are, are literally burning.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:34

Yeah, and like, the way they're positioned, you had to like lean over to get so many of...

Joanna RobinsonHost12:38

Anyway, I have a lot of questions.

So many sleeves caught on fire.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:41

What's your answer?

The answer is, of my own volition-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:44

Yeah

... no more than two.

Of my mother's volition-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:47

Oh

...

I can only dream.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:48

Oh, really?

Like, I mean, she's a candle enthusiast, but-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:50

Okay

... the-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:50

Like, at the holidays?

I mean, kind of all the time, but certainly the holidays.

Joanna RobinsonHost12:53

Okay.

I will say-

Joanna RobinsonHost12:54

Are they scented?

More neutrals, and as time has gone on, she has transitioned to a lot of fake candles, I will say.

The flickering plastic light.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:03

Oh, I know.

You know?

Joanna RobinsonHost13:04

Yeah.

Sometimes you gotta do it.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:05

This is what happens.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:06

The, the Christmas tree becomes fake.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:08

The candles become fake.

Wow.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:09

You know?

Just a metaphor for the American experience.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:12

Should I call it that comfort video again? [laughs]

[laughs]

Joanna RobinsonHost13:14

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:14

Episode five, "Faith," written by Peter Blake, directed by Steven Piet, maybe is how you pronounce that name.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:20

Do you wanna start...

Joanna RobinsonHost13:21

Well, I wanna, I wanna talk about a, a bigger thought I had watching this episode.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:25

Yes, this episode inspired some deep thoughts from me.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:29

I know that this show is purporting to engage with, uh, the specific anxieties of our era, but I was struck in this episode particularly when both Anna and Tom are suspended from their jobs about, like, do I feel wholly comfortable with some of the anxieties that this show is engaging with?

Hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:49

And by that I mean, man, you just can't shove teenagers in front of cars anymore 'cause people are just watching you all the time.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:56

This cancel culture.

This cancel culture bullshit.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:58

Yeah, absolutely.

Joanna RobinsonHost13:59

Um, or the hor- or like, what if the hot babe at your office, like, gets you into Microdosin-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost14:07

... and rubs up against you, and then an AI version of your voice sends a voice...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:11

You know, it's just so, like...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:13

I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:13

It's just these, like, white people fears of, of scenarios that are never gonna happen where they feel persecuted-

Completely

Joanna RobinsonHost14:20

...

Joanna RobinsonHost14:20

when they're, like, completely innocent.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:21

And I'm just sort of like, I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:23

I felt a little weird about it.

Well, I think what works for both of those things is obviously they're not both completely innocent, but there's, like, an exacerbation-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:30

Sure

... of the stakes and the punishment-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:31

Right

... that's like, Tom has, has certainly walked a line.

He's crossed it a couple times, clearly.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:37

Lexi's right about that.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:38

But then she's like, "Now I'm blackmailing you for HR," and I'm like, "Okay."

But I think it, it's also like...

Well, for one, okay, yeah, the blackmail scene is what it is.

She's not blackmailing him.

She's certainly not threatening him, but she's illuminating what-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:49

She's mentioning

... she would threaten him to and about and-

Joanna RobinsonHost14:52

Right

... and regarding.

Joanna RobinsonHost14:53

And what would be the result of that HR-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost14:54

... investigation.

But alt- really the thing that he gets busted for is, I think, what she determines to be an authentic voicemail, right? That he's actually leaving these weird messages.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:03

Well, sure.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:04

That's, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:04

As you say, that's the escalation, but I just think that Lexi's whole, like, I don't know, you flirt with...

Joanna RobinsonHost15:09

Like, this sort of like Me Too, you flirt with a woman once and she's gonna report you to HR and she has your-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost15:15

... you know, your balls in a vice, and like, all this.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:18

I don't know.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:18

It just bothered me.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:19

Anyway.

I think, look, the show is not very subtle about the theme-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:23

Oh

... of this week's episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:24

About anything.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:24

[laughs]

About really anything, but certainly, like, we are being bashed over the head-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:28

Yeah

... with a cowrie shell totem.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:30

[laughs]

That you know what? Perception's reality.

It doesn't matter what it is.

It matters what it looks like.

And every- literally everything that happens-

Joanna RobinsonHost15:37

How do-

...

in this episode is about what stuff looks like.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:39

How do you feel veteran TV actress CCH Pounder felt about just getting to say the clunky thesis of the show?

I think the check cleared.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:47

Okay, great.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:48

Let's start with Anna and Neveah.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:49

Things I'm adding to the board.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:51

And, and we should say, we're gonna bring out the corkboard at the end.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:53

We're gonna do all the cards at the end, uh, this week for our Cape Fear conspiracy corkboard.

Joanna RobinsonHost15:57

But dragon bong and canned fish are definitely, uh, going on the board.

Oh, is it a dragon?

Joanna RobinsonHost16:02

Is it not a dragon? What do you mean?

I thought it was, I thought it was a gator bong.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:04

It was a ga- oh, that makes more sense.

Let's check the tape.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:06

Okay.

Confirm what kind of recti- reptile it is.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:08

I was, 'cause I was like, puff them out.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:09

Okay, but like gator, gator bong.

And, and sorry, what was the second recommendation?

Joanna RobinsonHost16:12

Oh, canned fish.

The canned fish.

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:14

[laughs]

I have many thoughts.

One-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:17

Yeah

...

I'm a little curious.

You raised earlier this week the idea of if you wanted to smuggle any snack into a movie theater-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:24

Oh, yeah, yeah

... what would you smuggle?

Joanna RobinsonHost16:25

Yeah.

Had you already seen this episode?

Joanna RobinsonHost16:27

No, because a friend of mine brought crudites-

[laughs] That's right

Joanna RobinsonHost16:29

... to The Toy Story.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:29

That's why I asked about it.

I for- I forgot there was a whole crudite conversation.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're right.

Uh, needless to say-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:33

Nothing to do with the idea of bringing canned fish into the theater-

I would not

Joanna RobinsonHost16:38

... and then spilling it on someone.

If the iPhone is the clearest signpost we have that, like, hey, this character is a hero-

Joanna RobinsonHost16:44

Yeah

... bringing tinned fish into a movie is just, I mean, one of the most evil things you can do.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:50

Absolutely.

Diabolical.

Joanna RobinsonHost16:52

So this is, of course, a reference to, uh, De Niro in, uh, the '90s Cape Fear when Max Cady is obnoxiously smoking a cigar-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost17:01

... and laughing loudly while the Bowden family is trying to watch a movie, and it's sort of, like, his...

Joanna RobinsonHost17:07

I- I- like, he hasn't even spoken to them yet.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:09

This is their sort of, like, first brush with him, and they're like, "Who's that guy? How annoying." And then later they're like, "Uh-oh, it's De Niro and he wants to kill us." So, um, so, so Neveah's sort of, like, standing in for Max Cady, which is a- a- appropriate given, uh, we've already seen her do a couple things that are very Max Cady-coded.

Yes.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:27

And this is his daughter, and you can believe what you wanna believe about how much she is operating on his behalf or not.

Joanna RobinsonHost17:34

Where, where are you standing on that?

I think she's operating on his behalf quite a bit.

It's, it's so tricky to know where the lines are, though.

And I think especially over the course of this episode you have this sort of, like, dual manipulation happening where Neveah is, like, setting up Anna, hook, line, and sinker, to just walk into all of these various traps after this...

I mean, maybe she knew Anna was following her to the movie.

Maybe she didn't.

Maybe she was as surprised as anybody when her gator bong session was interrupted by this woman who just wants to have a chat in the middle of Babe Pig in the City.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:04

Don't you think... [laughs] I love that you're like, "Don't worry, I know it's Babe Pig in the City."

How could you not?

Joanna RobinsonHost18:09

Um, don't you think a dragon bong is cooler than a gator bong?

Depends on where you're from.

But also, look, you would think that.

You know, you're, you're dragon-minded these days.

How did you feel-

Joanna RobinsonHost18:18

Always

... about the fact that this is a big time for kissing your mom on the mouth?

Joanna RobinsonHost18:22

mouth?I already told you it's incest summer for me.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:27

[laughs]

[laughs] It really is.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:28

That's just like, that's just a subcategory of incest summer.

It was just watching this stuff, like basically back to back, I was just-

Joanna RobinsonHost18:33

Yeah

...

it was really striking.

You know? I guess there's a, I guess there's a movement developing.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:37

I guess.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:37

Um, did you freeze frame Mahoney the, the film posters outside of this particular rep theater?

I certainly did.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:42

Yeah.

They're very funny.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:43

Crime of the Century.

Yeah.

The Lawyer's Secret.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:46

Guilty As Hell.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:47

[laughs]

And Dangerous Waters.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:50

I hope they had a great time putting those together.

You can only imagine that they did.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:53

Really good stuff.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:54

Like it was one of those moments where I was like, ooh, let me look at the film posters.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:56

Then I was like, oh.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost18:58

This is bait for me to look at these film posters and be like, I mean, The Lawyer's Secret is-

That one is, I mean-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:03

... pretty tasty

... primo.

But to circle back to the Neveah point-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:06

Sure

...

I think, I would guess it's a combination thereof, where I believe that there probably was a sincere kind of frustration over her father being taken from her, and maybe she even reached out to Max initially, like expressing frustration and maybe she even wanted to get back at the Bowdens.

Maybe she ascertained that piece of it for herself.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:23

Mm-hmm.

But true to the spirit of this show and so much of the manipulation that happens, there's like the germ of the thing you actually feel, and then there's Max Katie like just fanning the flame.

You know? Just like really piping the oxygen in to get you burning even hotter and hotter and hotter and driving you toward just whatever the fuck he wants on a given day.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:41

Would we say as of last week, so this is episode five, we're halfway through, this is the halfway mark of the season.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:45

The episode ends with this big like, dun, dun, dun, that house he was touring was across the street.

Honestly-

Joanna RobinsonHost19:52

Oh my God

... a very funny reveal.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:53

It was really funny.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:54

[laughs]

It was really good.

Joanna RobinsonHost19:56

Um, but would you say as of episode four there was some like plausible deniability about whether or not Max was like a bad actor in all of this?

On a fair number of things.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:05

And then once we get to the bar fight where it's like so clear the way he's looking at the security camera-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost20:13

... how much he's setting up Tom, and then obviously the AI, uh, voice memo or voice message, um, like that this was just sort of like Max Katie.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:22

He's up to no good.

It feels like, and it feels like the Bowdens are becoming increasingly aware of it, even just like Tom being a little bit more on board, being convinced that this is happening.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:31

Rob.

There's, they're a little slow on the uptake.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:32

Tom in this episode.

[laughs] Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:34

Are you drinking again? [laughs] Fuck you, Tom.

He's really stepping in it, just left and right.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:38

Yeah.

And I think just in contention for the dumbest person on this show.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:43

Too dumb to live, Tom, Tom Bowden this week?

We're gonna find out.

He has some competition this week, but I can't say he's making great choices out there.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:50

All the Bowdens.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:51

[laughs]

The Bowdens collectively, I don't know, we have notes.

Joanna RobinsonHost20:55

The kids are not all right, and yet we're still like going to the club and getting drinks with people or whatever it is.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:00

Like why are we not home with the children is a question that I have among many others.

There's a very simple answer.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:05

Yeah.

Entropy.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:06

Entropy.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:06

[laughs] I know what entropy means, Rob.

[laughs] That I believe.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:11

Um, all right.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:12

Uh, let's talk about fun color coding in this episode.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:16

'Cause we've talked a lot about the matching blues, how much like Amy Adams is dressed in blue, Max Katie's dressed in blue, et cetera, et cetera.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:23

In this we get the shift to the greens.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:25

Max is in this like, Javier Bardem is wearing like one of the most beautiful green shirts I've ever seen in my life.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:30

Incredible, uh, color, looks like it might be silk.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:33

Like just really beautiful.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:35

And then Juliette Lewis shows up in a green dress, and she's obviously been wearing that like green slicker-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost21:41

... uh, this whole, so like she's a green coded character and he is matching her inside of this episode.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:47

Um, and then we get the, uh, the moment with them in the cigar closet.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:54

What is it called?

I believe they're called a cigar locker.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:56

Oh, okay.

A la a wine locker at, as we know, the club.

Joanna RobinsonHost21:59

That's not the club.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:00

That's not very fun, you know? Cigar locker.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:03

Shouldn't it have a fun fancier name?

Well, that's why they bring the fun.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:06

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:06

[laughs]

You know, it's a very normal setting.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:07

Do you feel like they brought the fun into the cigar locker t- this week?

They brought a lot.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:11

Okay.

A lot of conflicting energy.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:13

Mm-hmm.

A lot to parse.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:14

Mm-hmm.

More spit than I was anticipating.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:16

Okay.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:17

Did you appreciate that move from, from Max Katie?

I gotta say I've never seen it before.

The like-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:21

The open mouth kiss?

Open mouth-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:23

The spit during the open mouth kiss.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:25

That feels like a level of tongue dexterity that I'm impressed by.

It wasn't so much an open mouth kiss in the traditional sense so much as one mouth completely covering the other mouth.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:36

Yeah.

And then shotgun spitting-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:38

Yeah

... directly into it.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:39

Uh-huh.

Look, people are into different things.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:41

[laughs]

People are innovating all the time.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:43

She didn't seem to like that one.

Do you think this was in the script?

Joanna RobinsonHost22:46

[laughs]

Do, or do you think Javier Bardem is like, "You know what? I got just the thing."

Joanna RobinsonHost22:49

Do you know who I believe is a really let's do anything scene partner?

Who's that?

Joanna RobinsonHost22:52

Juliette Lewis.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:53

[laughs]

I mean, of all the things she's experienced-

Joanna RobinsonHost22:55

Yeah

...

this is like fifth percentile weird.

Joanna RobinsonHost22:58

I loved this.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:00

It is dank and dirty and upsetting, but I really loved the, the nuance of all of this because-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost23:07

... you know, she's her own bananas, uh, you know, self when she shows up and she's like, "Oh, hi Max."

Mm-hmm.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:15

"Fancy running into you here." Like amazing stuff.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:18

They're in the cigar locker I guess.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:19

And, uh, he seems like drawn in by her, like ensorcelled by her to a certain degree.

When they're in the cigar locker?

Joanna RobinsonHost23:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:28

You know, he's like angry that she's there, uncomfortable that she's there, and she's like, "I know where you live," like-

Yeah

Joanna RobinsonHost23:33

... she knows before the Bowdens do.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:34

That's why sh- I guess she was on Anna's street when she was-

It's true

Joanna RobinsonHost23:37

... like looking for Max.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:38

Anna's like, "This is my house, dum-dum," and actually it's Max's house too.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:43

Um, but he seems like he, you know, he says nasty shit to her.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:48

He calls her like delusional and sick, which could feed into these like incest accusations from our listeners or whatever.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:55

But like he's also like, he's the one who initiates the kiss with her.

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost23:59

And it doesn't just seem to be sort of, uh, punishing and manipulative.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:04

It seems like he is sort of like under a spell-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost24:08

... or, or old habits or something like that with her.

Well, l- I mean let's even back up before that.

I mean, when he first sees her- I would say

Joanna RobinsonHost24:16

You wanna go through this beat by beat.

I really do, though.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:18

Yeah, it's great.

I mean, h- what's your read on his initial reaction? I would say it's the first time he is really shaken up Max Katie-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:24

I love it

...

in the entire series so far.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:25

And that's, we need this.

We do.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:27

Like, this is different from the movie, but I really like this element of, like, someone who puts him-

Yes

Joanna RobinsonHost24:32

... on the back foot when he is, like, so in front of all these other characters on this show.

And are you getting from Javier Bardem's performance, like, is it fear? Is it anger? Is it something, is it some of the above, all of the above, none of the above?

Joanna RobinsonHost24:47

And, like, shame?

Yeah.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:48

Yeah.

I think definitely some shame in that mix.

Joanna RobinsonHost24:51

Yeah.

And then the, the kind of spell that you're talking about, it's almost like he's physically resisting it, and then as soon as she kind of, like, touches him-

Joanna RobinsonHost24:59

He, like, leans into her

...

he crumbles.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:01

Yeah.

I mean, it's, the, the performances here are awesome.

Joanna RobinsonHost25:04

Very good.

It's, it is very confusing.

It's a lot happening.

Like-

Joanna RobinsonHost25:08

And when she's like, "I, you know, I reach into your dreams every night," and he was like, "Was that you?" You know what I mean?

Yeah.