Oct 7, 2026 · 44 min · 13 segments
When Donald Trump meets Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un, or Xi Jinping, what does the image itself accomplish before any deal is signed?In this episode of Buffer State, Sasha Stern and Reid Smith sit down…
Sasha SternHostUh, 'cause I had a question on this, 'cause it's kind of a big picture to what we've been talking about.
Min Sun, so okay, like grant you summit optics matter, but how much? Like, how do we assess alongside all the other things that shape a relationship, you know, the salience and the importance of those optics that you, you know, that you study?
So when I say matter, it means we all know that these are all spectacles and theatricality.
We all know that these are all staged, right? These are all in a way meant to look pleasant or meant to feel right for the domestic audience.
Uh, but I'm going beyond that to actually suggest and even argue to say that this is the way that most of us actually socialize with this very abstract idea of international politics.
But I think summits, one thing that summits do is that they help us encounter, um, not just other foreign leaders, but they help us encounter other countries, uh, in ways that we didn't think that we'll encounter them.
Min Sun, what if I take your point to the next degree and say, "Chris, the optics matter more than, than the contract signed"?
I definitely think that they do matter, especially when it comes to the first summits between adversaries.
So I've looked at, like, US-Soviet, US-China, US-Vietnam, US-Cuba 2016, US-North Korea summit.
Um, so in, in, in those kind of high-profile controversial summits, I think optics do matter more than the outcomes.
But I can actually-
... support that argument.
You're making me think about it.
If you think about the, um, the, the 2021 Alaska summit between the Biden administration and Beijing, uh, the optics were terrible, right? I mean, it was like lecturing each other, everybody breaking protocol.
It was awful.
And if you talk to people who were there, they said, "Well, then they went behind the closed doors and negotiated." Everything was copacetic and actually got some stuff done.
But, like, that's, in the end of the day, that's not what mattered.
What mattered was the fact that it was so acrimonious.
Yeah, so just to add to that, I mean, optics matter because we all have interpretations about it.
Uh, 'cause I had a question on this, 'cause it's kind of a big picture to what we've been talking about.
Min Sun, so okay, like grant you summit optics matter, but how much? Like, how do we assess alongside all the other things that shape a relationship, you know, the salience and the importance of those optics that you, you know, that you study?
So when I say matter, it means we all know that these are all spectacles and theatricality.
We all know that these are all staged, right? These are all in a way meant to look pleasant or meant to feel right for the domestic audience.
Uh, but I'm going beyond that to actually suggest and even argue to say that this is the way that most of us actually socialize with this very abstract idea of international politics.
But I think summits, one thing that summits do is that they help us encounter, um, not just other foreign leaders, but they help us encounter other countries, uh, in ways that we didn't think that we'll encounter them.
Min Sun, what if I take your point to the next degree and say, "Chris, the optics matter more than, than the contract signed"?
I definitely think that they do matter, especially when it comes to the first summits between adversaries.
So I've looked at, like, US-Soviet, US-China, US-Vietnam, US-Cuba 2016, US-North Korea summit.
Um, so in, in, in those kind of high-profile controversial summits, I think optics do matter more than the outcomes.
But I can actually-
... support that argument.
You're making me think about it.
If you think about the, um, the, the 2021 Alaska summit between the Biden administration and Beijing, uh, the optics were terrible, right? I mean, it was like lecturing each other, everybody breaking protocol.
It was awful.
And if you talk to people who were there, they said, "Well, then they went behind the closed doors and negotiated." Everything was copacetic and actually got some stuff done.
But, like, that's, in the end of the day, that's not what mattered.
What mattered was the fact that it was so acrimonious.
Yeah, so just to add to that, I mean, optics matter because we all have interpretations about it.
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