PAD: Coaching Respect, Bears Rivalry, Caleb Hype, and Love's 'Hospital Balls'

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You, you feel this, this nervousness on the phone there?

Sir, I've been trying to make an urgent phone call up there.

I don't think it's something I wanna do on an overseas phone.

You gotta make some phone calls? Hang up the phone.

Prank caller! Prank caller!

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again to Packer Net After Dark.

This is the call-in show of the Packer Net Podcast Network.

If you'd like to call in, if you'd like to participate in the show, please feel free to do so.

The phone number here is 608-501-0718.

New callers go directly to the front of the line.

Um, let me move my phone away from this, 'cause it's getting some feedy feed zabaxes.

Uh, so here's the deal.

Uh, I thought maybe I'd do a podcast tomorrow.

It's looking like that's- there's just no way.

We wanna leave kind early, um, so it's gonna be, you know, getting the kids up, getting the car, and all that stuff, and we gotta go.

So, um, I don't know if there's going...

I, I don't, I don't know if there's gonna be a, a...

Whatever.

This might be the last thing you hear.

If this is on Packer Net After Dark, then there might be one tomorrow.

Otherwise, this is the last one.

I...

So I've posted 10 podcasts today [laughs] so that, uh, Sal and Brick are here the entire time we're gone.

So you'll have that no matter what.

If there's any breaking news, I will tend to that one way or another.

I don't know if I'm even gonna have a microphone.

Uh, if I can find a headset, I will bring it.

Otherwise, it will be probably, um, uh, Sal kind of conveying my thoughts, I suppose, or I'll find somebody else to do it.

But, uh, last time I went down to visit the parents, uh, is when Micah Parsons, when that deal happened.

So we'll see.

Uh, it seems like Tucker Kraft is probably right around the corner.

I would not be surprised if that gets done this week sometime.

There's already been, um, a lot of, a lot of smoke, uh, pointing to a potential fire on that front.

Uh, at, at the very least, sounds like they're extremely motivated.

I'm sure they've been working on it a lot, and again, as these other deals get done, bing, bang, boom, um, you have more clarity and, and they should be getting pretty close.

So, um, I, I guess I'm saying all this 'cause I don't know if there's going to be a podcast [laughs] tomorrow.

So, uh, you know, just sneaking that in.

Honestly, the only other thing that I really was gonna hammer, um, there's just, there's not a ton, but ESPN's been firing a bunch of people and I was gonna do some gloating on that, um, which isn't Super Packers related, you know? But, uh, some of the absolute, like one of my least favorite, uh, sports commentators, NFL commentators got laid off.

And look, I, you know, you don't wanna gloat about a guy getting laid off, but at the same time, he's beyond rich, so he's gonna be fine, and he has no business being in any, any posi- I'm sure he's gonna have a YouTube channel that's gonna blow up, but he, he's not a smart human being.

But that's, uh, Ryan Clark, I think.

And then, uh, Cam Newton also got laid off, who...

I mean, he's, he's impossible.

I mean, he...

Cam New- I, I...

Here's, here's what's funny.

Do you remember when I went through the, um, the comps for Jordan Love and then I went through the comps for Caleb Williams? I really think Caleb has a lot of Cam Newton in him.

They're slightly different, but Caleb does have some athleticism.

Um, you know, their, their play style's a little bit different, but when you look at the attitude, look at, look at how mood swingy Caleb can be.

You know, he's the most arrogant SOB in the entire world.

He paints his fingernails like a girl.

He's...

You know, when he loses, he pouts.

When he gets hurt, he pouts and lays on the field.

Cam Newton was the same way.

Remember when they were losing and he'd sit on the sideline with his head down and a towel over his head? Now he, he goes all over the place dressing like a woman and all this weird stuff.

Like, they're, they're very sim- And Cam Newton is probably the most arrogant, self-centered, like, cocky, weird guy, um, that, that's...

I mean, those two are so unbelievably similar.

I'm starting to think that that's what we're gonna get from Caleb, and he may stick around kind of like Cam did for a while.

He'll do like a five, six-year stint and then end up on another team somewhere.

Um, but I just, I...

Anyways, I'm, I'm, I'm glad Cam Newton is gone.

It's unfortunate they're probably gonna be pushed to YouTube, so I'm gonna see them even more often, but, uh, they, they are just the absolute worst.

And, uh, apparently, uh, Clark was fired basically while on air [laughs].

They, they did a segment and then went to commercial break, and then he found out he got fired.

Uh, there's a lot of people who are like, "Oh, they're, th- they were horrible because they, they fired him, and then they, like, clipped that segment and posted it after they fired him.

How sick and vindictive do you have to be?" Are you stupid? Do you understand how big ESPN is? Do you think the freaking CEO, first of all, the CEO of ESPN probably didn't even know about this.

He doesn't give a crap.

Whoever employs him to run this portion of it, they made a decision.

The CEO probably did know, but maybe not even.

Because what is it, Disney? You think that guy know? He doesn't freaking know.

He doesn't care.

But anyways, these guys, the person that posted that is some social media intern whose job is to clip things and then put it on social media.

Do you think they went to...

He doesn't know.

So I mean, the idea that they, that like the CEO made a decision to fire him and then the CEO's out there clipping it and posting it, what are you guys talking about? You're just trying to find reasons to feel sorry for this absolute scumbag, and Ryan Clark is a scumbag.

I mean, I genuinely dislike him.

Uh, it's not just bad takes.

I just think, I think he's a, he's a bad person.

The amount of times he's had to come on TV and apologize for stuff he's said, it just gets tiring.

Like, just stop, man.

Just stop.

If nothing, just stop apologizing.

Just lean into it.

All, everybody else that says stuff that's stupid, they just lean into it.

Just lean into it.

Just be the heel.

Be the bad guy.

Stop saying stupid things and then coming out and apologizing.

But I'm sure it was ESPN and everybody else that forced him to apologize, and then this time they're just like, "Okay, I'm not telling him to apologize.

He's just getting fired," which is great.

Also, ESPN has no money, which is also great.

ESPN is a stupid organization that shouldn't even exist.

There's no reason for ESPN to exist.

Useless nonsense.

Okay, so there you go.

I guess, I guess that's your episode, and I've made my decision that this is gonna be it.

We have 10 calls.

Um, I'm not sure what we're gonna do with this.

I, I may try.

I don't know if I'm gonna be able to, but I may try to find a way to have, uh, an after dark thing.

So if you want to get your call...

Either way, when I get back, we're gonna do some stuff, but, uh, I'm just, I'm just thinking out loud here.

Why don't we just go ahead and get started? Um, first off, we have Brucie.

What's up, Pack Daddy? This is, uh, Bruce checking in, man.

Hello.

Now that the craziness is over, I opened up my second location for my coffee shop here in El Paso, which is pretty cool inside-

Congrats

... our climbing gym, man.

But it has been a whirlwind of Caleb and work, and work's still gonna continue.

You know how that goes, man.

But, uh, I started to think about, um, out- the, the team more than anything outside of the team, 'cause we're 11 days from training camp, man.

And, uh, I think the biggest thing that I want to start looking at is I started kind of just thinking about, like, when was the last time that Goody...

Like, he had good drafts.

Like, I, I like Goody, man, and he did a good job this off-season to address the problems we had with the team as best as he could.

Um, I kind of like the fact they had very specific picks.

It seemed like they were a lot more targeted versus just kind of spraying a shotgun of shots with 11 that they do every year.

I liked it.

Um, but when was the last time that he drafted, like, I mean, I guess Jair, right, was the last Pro Bowler? I mean, Jordan is fantastic.

Like, there's no arguing that.

Um-

Yeah, I, first of all, the, I, the, the first red flag is when you say Pro Bowl, because I, I think that that's...

I, I get it that it's hard to find those kinds of metrics, but the problem is, um, I mean, I'm, I'm looking at several people that I think would be in that blue chip category.

I think Zach Tom, I think Edgerrin Cooper.

Um, hope, I'm hoping for Christian Watson.

He's teetering.

I really think if he gets a full season, he, he'll be in that category, but he's got to be able to do that.

Uh, Tucker, I think we're gonna see is going to be in that category.

Uh, we'll see if Evan Williams...

You know, again, he's, he's in the, like, really solid category.

I think it's an exaggeration to say he's kind of in that, like, blue chippy category.

But I mean, he's, he's, he is a solid, solid pick.

Um, so I, I think, you know, regardless of whether or not they've gotten Pro Bowl nods, I don't care.

Keisean Nixon is going to the Pro Bowl and a bunch of these other guys have not.

I mean, give me a break.

So, uh, yeah, I, I, I think he's had, I think he's had some, some pretty solid hits here that are, that are flying under the radar for whatever reason.

I mean, Packer guys just don't really get their due when it comes to, like, Ty...

Even, even guys that he didn't draft, like Xavier McKinney, I think he might be the best safety in football.

Nobody talks about him.

Nobody cares.

They'll talk about other safeties.

They'll talk about the guys over in the Lions.

They talk about all these guys.

They don't talk about McKinney.

I don't know what it is about the Packers.

It's just, it's just a weird thing where, you know, I, I don't know if it's just because we've been identified by a quarterback for such a long time that that's really the only thing.

And I, I have talked about that in the past where, you know, Aaron Rodgers kind of overshadowed everybody, where other guys were not getting their due.

You know, they weren't being talked about as respectfully as they should be because everything was just revolving around Rodgers.

I don't, I don't know.

I don't know what the problem is.

It's very odd.

But, um, I, I would, I would at least...

I'm not saying all those guys belong 100% in that category, but I think they absolutely are at least in the discussion for that.

Um, Cooper kind of took a step back in year two, still solid, but, like, if you just judged year two, you wouldn't put him in that category.

Year one, you would.

So we'll see kind of what happens in year three.

Did, did Hafley kind of screw that up? Did the other linebackers coach screw that up that took over? I don't know.

Um, but we'll, we'll, we'll see.

But I, I would, yeah, I would push a couple of those guys up there.

But this, not just this draft, but the next three drafts, we're now like the fifth oldest team, right? So they've got some...

Like, you can't make that excuse anymore about being the youngest team.

Um, these guys need to step up, and there's a couple guys on the team, man, that I'd like to hear your thoughts instead of me saying who I think are the guys that need to step up on the team this year and make that jump.

Like, I guess, uh, I'll come up with my number one guy that I think needs to really take a step.

Um, like the obvious choice is LVN, right? Just because of the Micah situation.

Um, but genuinely for me, man, I think it's Matthew Golden, man.

Like that kid showed some stuff and-

Yeah

...

they got rid of two guys and they're giving him that starting spot, man.

Like it's, like it's do or die, man.

This was...

Just think about last off-season, we had like Micah, we had Golden.

What an amazing draft this year.

Like McClellan, I like this draft, but the older guys that have been drafted previously really need to step up.

For me, it's Golden, man.

Like the obvious one I think is LVN for everybody just because of the Micah situation.

But outside of that, like who is it? Is it, is it Morgan who was third on the team in snaps? Um, total snaps, that's crazy, right? Even though they moved him around, maybe he settled in.

But where or who or what do you think really needs to be the part of the team that Goody can kind of prove his chops and will make this team actually be like an NFC contender?

Well, here's the first thing, and I, I'm not trying to just, uh, evade, but, uh, I, I just wanna be very clear on it.

I am significantly less concerned with taking a step as I am with just being healthy, because I, I just, I think a lot of people are underrated because they have not played a full season.

I think Jaden Reed is a very, very, very good football player that we just didn't really see all year.

I think Christian Watson is a borderline elite player that doesn't get respect because he wasn't on the field for half the year.

I think Tucker Kraft is, is already probably a top five tight end.

Um, he's, he's...

A- and that's, that's tough company.

I know a lot of Packer fans, "Oh, he's definitely..." There, there's some really solid tight ends, but the bottom line is he's in that category, and that's one of the first, like in my lifetime.

The Packers have not had very good tight ends.

There's...

I mean, I'm, I'm a huge Bubba Franks fan.

I love that guy.

Uh, I've always said Finley was overrated.

He was fine.

I think Tucker is, is better than all of these guys, but he has to be on the fricking field.

Zach Tom is elite.

He needs to stay on the field.

Every freaking body.

Micah is elite.

He just needs to be on the field, and I know he won't for a portion of time, but if you just promise me health, I, I will sit here right now and say zero people can take a step, and I'm including the offensive line.

I don't give a damn.

If you give me Watson and Reed and Tucker and Jordan, and you give me Josh Jacobs, and you give me Micah and Van Ness, who also played just a half a year, uh, Micah will obviously just be a half a year this year.

Give me Wyatt not being out.

Uh, g- you know what I mean? Like, give me these guys healthy.

This team is going to be beyond elite.

You talked about Van Ness needs to take a step.

He took a step.

He took a giant leap last year.

And again, nobody cares because, well, number one, the sack numbers aren't there and that's all anybody cares about.

But number two, he only played half a year.

Just to be clear, in 2024, he had a 53 grade.

That jumped up to a 76.

His 45 run defense grade jumped up to a 70.

His 54 tackling grade jumped up to an 81.

His 64 pass rush grade jumped up to a 71, and he even had a almost 70 coverage grade for whatever that's worth.

And again, tw- let's see.

I, I forget the, the math on it, but 27 pressures divided by his, uh, 178 attempts.

He had a 15% pressure rate.

That is bordering on the elite category.

That is like Kenny Clark never had like a 15%.

Rashan, like at his best, was around 17%, and he, he was like in the elite, elite category, like one of the best in all of football when he was at his best.

15% is shockingly good.

It's, it is...

I've always said like 11 to 12 is a really solid player.

That was, again, Mike Daniels and Kenny Clark were in that 12% per year.

They were very, very good.

You get to 15%, that's, that is upper echelon, and he was very consistent.

He did a very good...

And that was playing weeks one, two, three, four, then six, then 12, then 15, 16, 17, and then the wild card.

So he played four games, then he took a break, I think it was the bye.

Then he played one game, then he was out.

Then he played one game, then he was out.

Then he played three games, then he was out.

Then he played one game.

Even with that, this is what he put out.

Do you know how hard it is to play two, three games at a time, battling injury all year at 24 years old and do all this? And by the way, th- this was like the same year Rashan had his breakout.

A lot of guys, I was saying it was weird, like year three because there, there were like these year two breakouts.

I forgot, this was a few years ago I was talking about it, but a lot of guys, like I think it was like, uh, Bosas or whatever, had like year two breakouts.

It was, it was a pile of pass rushers.

And Rashan was year three, but what I pointed out was in year three, he had the same number of attempts because, you know, these Packer guys are, are third string instead of number one, and they get rotated so heavily that it, it takes three years to get the same amount of snaps as these other guys get in two.

But the point is, this was kinda his big breakout, but he got hurt, just like Wyatt got hurt, just like, uh, frigging Micah got hurt, just like Tom got hurt, just like Elton got hurt, just like Reed was hurt, just like W- uh, Watson got hurt, just like every damn body got hurt.

Our entire offensive line was hurt.

So I mean, [sighs] just, just come back healthy and this team is Super Bowl ready.

They, they are ready to go out and win a Super Bowl.

I can't obviously promise that they will.

This is an unbelievably good football team.

They're underrated even by Packer fans.

This team is, is, is stacked.

It's freaking stacked.

Uh- Take a step though.

Let me, let me give you one.

Um, [lips smack] Golden's a good answer, and I think he's primed for it.

Uh, the, the only reason I wouldn't say Golden is just because I, I really feel like if he had the opportunities, he would've showed everybody.

I, it just...

And, and, and that's probably delusion in my mind, but he...

I, I really think similar to how I felt about Watson, he was not given the snaps, he was not getting the looks from Rodgers, and then he ends up getting hurt later on.

I think if this guy was just designated as the number one guy, I think Watson would've blown up.

Uh, and even with his, like, drop issues and stuff that he's fixed, he still would've been dominant, as we saw, like, in Dallas.

All of a sudden they're gonna throw to him a ton, and what did he get, like, four freaking touchdowns? Just insane.

When you decide I'm going Watson all day, look what happens.

Um, I, I, I think I'll say yes to Golden, but I, I think if you just say, "Hey, you're the, you're the X, you're this," I'm not gonna say necessarily number one, but let's just call it that, at least in terms of volume we're going your way a lot, I think he's just gonna explode.

So I, I think I, I, I don't even, I don't even think he needs to take a step.

Um, I'll take that just on, just to be safe.

But, um, let me think of another...

I mean, offensive line would be fantas- You know, you know who it is? Belton.

I want Belton to take a step, number one, because of how bad he was, but also number two, because I think the potential is massive.

The guy was never given really an opportunity to just sit at guard, learn guard.

He was a tackle in college.

He comes here, they made him a tackle, and then, you know, at the end of the season they plop him right guard, and yeah, it didn't go very well.

Go figure.

Um, that's the guy I want to be a massive road grader blowing open holes on that right side next to Zach Tom.

Um, that's my guy.

That's the guy I want to take a step.

There's, I mean, there, there's plenty that you could pick, but that's my guy.

All right, let's take a break.

We'll come back.

We got Liz from Upstate New York.

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Hey, Ryan.

It's Liz from Upstate New York.

Hey, Liz.

Um, I just have to say, I really have been enjoying all the, um, the analysis with statistics that you've been giving.

Good.

I don't know if I've told you before, I am a math teacher.

I, um-

Oh, boy

...

when I was in college thought maybe-

This is, like, my biggest fear because I'm kind of going off the cuff.

Like I said, I, I have these thoughts in my mind, and this is...

Y- I was probably your worst student, you know, 'cause math teachers always want you to show your work, and I was always just like, "I understand it and I'm, I'm getting somewhere, but I don't know exactly how to do it." Um, you know what I mean? Like, those people that find the way and it's like, "Well, that's not how I taught you to do it." "Yeah, but it makes sense to me and I don't know why." So I'm kind of just thinking of it and then I run to AI, and then AI teaches me it for 10 seconds and then I try to explain it on the pod.

Bottom line is I'm probably getting a lot of things wrong, but I'm, I'm doing my best, Liz.

You know what? Maybe I could be a statistician for a sports team somewhere-

Heck yeah

... um, and ended up being a math teacher.

So I do math all the time.

We use stats in my class a lot.

[chuckles]

Um, so thank you for this analysis because you're right, nobody talks about this.

No one wants to break down what these stats actually mean.

So listening to the last couple episodes that you've had on here, the misleading stats, the Jordan versus Caleb, all the is he accurate, is he not? All the stuff has been amazing.

Thank you.

So I just wanted to, to shout out to you about, um, Reddit.

I know you're not a big Reddit guy.

Right.

There is a thread on the Green Bay Packers Reddit called What Does Jordan Love Actually Have To Do To Be Considered A Top 10 Quarterback in the NFL? And I got really frustrated while I was on here.

I don't have a lot of social media.

Reddit is pretty anonymous.

Um, Packer fans, and you look at their, you know, their background or whatever else they have posted, Packer fans talking about how inaccurate Jordan Love is-

That's crazy

... and trying to explain that that's not the case, and running into a wall.

So anybody who's listening or you wanna hop on Reddit and add to that conversation, um, I just got a little-

I don't, I don't even try anymore because I, I think for the last, like, 10 years, every time I've posted something, it's gotten deleted.

Uh, the, the, the Reddit mo- This, this is why I hate Reddit.

The Reddit moderation is insane.

It is the exact opposite mentality of what I have.

So I've got, like, Facebook groups.

I barely go on there.

People get mad at me because I refuse to censor anything, and there have been a couple times where it's like, "Okay, fine.

These people are spamming.

I'll get rid of it." But my thought is always like, "I'm not a freaking kindergarten teacher.

Figure it out, dude.

You're grown adults." All I did was build a room for people to hang out.

Can you imagine if this was a room, like an actual room with people, and everybody came over to me and was, like, complaining and tattling all the time? That's what social media is.

They come tattling and saying, "He's not doing that.

Can you go s- Can you kick him out? Can you do this?" What are you, five years old? Just ignore him.

Just block him.

Just what, what, what, what is this? This is pathetic.

That's Reddit.

Everything has to be exactly perfect.

There's 50,000 rules and, like, if you haven't posted, if you haven't been here for 10 years, like, interacting, you can't just post things.

So I comment and you, "Well, you haven't doin- been doing this long enough to comment." Then F you, okay? I'm, I'm done.

I'm not doing this.

So I don't bother anymore.

I, I just...

I, I, I will occasionally read stuff, and it's usually AI likes to pull from Reddit and of course there's a ton on there, and I've, I've occasionally, uh, you know, I've gone through the comments on Reddit or whatever.

But as far as, like, getting on there and trying to say anything, forget it, man I, I am not about to sit here and abide by your stupid fricking rules.

I'm not gonna sit here for 10 years, you know, doing little thumbs up and all this crap just so I can have the-- be, be graced with the ability to write down my, my opinions and my responses or post something.

Like any other social media, I can post whatever I want, whenever I want about whatever I want.

Reddit, good Lord, I have, I have posted...

I, I just very recently posted something.

I was like, "I thought this would be helpful," and people started commenting on it, and then all of a sudden I go to look and it's gone.

It's like [chuckles] you guys are-- you are the wor- like Reddit moderators have gotta be the worst people on planet Earth, man.

I just, ugh, I, I just can't handle the constant like...

I don't know.

It's, it's just such a pathetic environment to me, and it's just so rules-based and so it's like, it's like fricking kindergarten class, dude.

Like, good Lord.

Little annoyed and, and, and had to, had to get out of it.

But I was, I was getting frustrated because this is the place you're supposed to go to, to read.

You want honest opinions from people, but-

I'm sure it's honest

... you can't be able to reason with a fan- your own fan base.

And I found that I was-- it was not a very reasonable place to be.

Most of the stuff on there is all right, but this particular thread I felt myself feeling annoyed because the stats, if you look at them, show Jordan Love as a great quarterback.

Um, you know, he's, he's still young, and there's some inconsistencies here or there, but overall, I think he's a very talented and consistent quarterback.

I'm, I'm pleased with where he is right now, and when we can get a full season from him not hurt, I'll be super happy.

Um, I've been listening.

I know I haven't called in.

It's been crazy busy.

Thank you so much for all the content you put out.

I've been listening to Sal, and I even listened to some of the Tundra FM stuff, which I hadn't done before.

So, um, I know you're gonna be busy on vacation.

Enjoy yourself, but please post a few things to keep us, keep us content.

Have a great day.

Go Pack Go.

I appreciate you, Liz.

That, that means a lot, and please keep your calls coming.

Um, I, I forgot to mention, because we're going on a road trip and, um, I want to be able to have, you know, my music and whatever, what I decided to do was finally build a little radio player.

Very simple little...

It's just a website where you go, and you push play, and you can, you can shuffle whatever.

You can pick a song.

Um, I am going to put that link on Patreon.

Now, this one I'm actually going-- Usually, it's, it's all free tier.

This one, at least a dollar.

So anybody that gives anything will have access to this link, and, uh, it's not paid.

You don't have to log in.

There's none of that.

You can just go there.

You can listen to anything.

Um, I think over time, maybe even on vacation, it'll be a fun little thing to, to play with 'cause it's not on my computer.

Um, like a lot of the, the AI projects I'm working on are all, like, you know, the, the folder, the code base or whatever's on my PC.

This is all online.

Very simple little thing, shareable link, so it'll be real nice and easy for everybody to, to listen.

Um, I'm hoping you guys, you know...

A- again, I don't, I don't know.

I know there was a time where everybody was chomping at the bit for it.

I think Tundra has kinda, uh, dampened that a little bit in terms of everybody's kinda getting what they asked for.

But, um, I'm hoping there's still an appetite for, uh, being able to go listen.

So for those of you that are like, "Oh, man, I got that one song in my head.

I wish it was a place I could just go listen to it," aside from just replaying Tundra FM over and over, uh, you're finally gonna have access to that.

So, uh, I think over time, this is what I was trying to say, I'm gonna be able to add the features as far as, um, putting them in categories, you know, as far as like rock and, and, and pop, dance, rap, whatever, just to make it a little easier to find.

And then maybe what I'll do is I'll add a...

If, if there's, you know...

I'll try to get some tracking to see if people are actually using it.

If not, forget it.

But, uh, I would need to make accounts where you'd have to log in with your email.

But the point being, that way you can kinda save, like, your favorites, which is something I'd like to be able to do.

But you can't do that unless you create an account, obviously.

Otherwise, how will it be able to save for you? Uh, which I know annoys everybody.

You, you make people log in, they're like, "I'm out.

I'm out of here." So I'm-- I...

We'll see if I end up doing that.

But I'm hoping you guys enjoy that because I've been wanting to do it for a long time.

I've been overcomplicating how hard it needs to be, and all it took was a vacation for me to be like, "You know what? I want it." And I-- It took me...

I mean, it w- the uploading portion was the longest portion.

It was maybe 10, 15 minutes to [chuckles] put this thing together, so.

Um, again, patreon.com/pack_daddy.

Uh, if you're just giving a, a single dollar per month, I got a lot of people on there for free.

If you just pump a buck in there, uh, you'll have access to this link.

I, I just, I gotta remember to do that, but that'll be there for you.

Um, we might be able to sneak two episodes in here.

Maybe I'll do two of these.

Why don't we take a break here just to make sure because we got a couple Nikos coming up.

Maybe I'll just do two Packernight After Dark, so it'll kinda spread this out a little bit.

Uh, we'll take a break here.

We'll be right back.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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betterRyan, how the heck are you?

Good

I hope I'm not breaking up too bad.

Yeah, you are.

It's like 90, 90 degrees out there.

I don't wanna do this inside.

Just, you're caught on the...

That's it.

Just-

Let me skip ahead a little bit here

...

this is why I...

But now they're breaking down accurate throws into really good accurate throws.

I'm like, "Well, what?" If it's...

We all know, if it touches the receiver's hands, even if he's gotta reach a little, that's an accurate throw.

This extra accurate, whatever the term you used, I forgot 'cause like-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... an hour ago when I was listening to the podcast.

Well-

Can't remember everything, Ryan.

I'm so sorry

...

I'm trying to pause it and it's not working.

Okay.

That's the dumbest thing in the world.

I mean, why don't they start...

Why don't...

And I think it's just 'cause I, I mentioned this before, we overanalyze everything, and so that makes us overanalyze the overanalyzing, and it just be- gets so dumb.

So you got people leaving dumb remarks about their, about the, what you talked about today, what the, the, I forget, it was the something yards per ga- per player.

I forget who it was.

I don't know.

But it's like, and then you didn't say anything, which is what you, you mentioned.

It makes people bring up their own conclusion.

It's just so dumb.

So here's, here's, here's...

I mean, it's like, what are you...

Like, what if, what if Josh Jacobs runs through the offensive line, busts out a eight, 10-yard play, and no one on the defensive line touches him, but on the next play he runs up the middle and he breaks a tackle on the defensive line, still gets 10 yards, is that a better, is that a worse block? Should we penalize Sean Ryan for not blocking the, the center, uh, the, the, the tackle better than he did? That's just so dumb.

But here, here's how we fix that.

I'm gonna start, or you could add this to your stats page, 'cause you have a stat thing, and that's, that's really cool.

Make sure I got enough time.

I don't have enough time.

I'm gonna call back.

So I th- I think I caught a lot of that.

The first part was, was breaking up, but I think I know what you're talking about.

We were talk- I, I forget that it...

Was it the fantasy points people? So they...

Again, I like, I like what they do, and I do think, like, breaking up accuracy into different categories is beneficial, right? That was a, you know, the, a, a, like, bang on target as opposed to, like, the guy had to stop or come back for it or whatever, you know, a little high.

What...

I don't, I don't mind that.

Um, we do kind of get into subjectivity a little bit.

The, the reason I say that it was funny, I was looking over at SIS, who also does a lot.

They just cost a ton of money.

Uh, I just, I just went and looked at their site today and, uh, I can tell they're, they're blowing up too.

I think, a- again, this is my hope with AI, is some of these companies are latching on, and they are just expanding into wild territories.

I wish they weren't so expensive.

I'm hoping that they start becoming a little bit more commercial and bring their prices down, but either way, uh, they do have some free stuff.

And I was like, I just wanna go look at, uh...

I think I was arguing with a Bears fan is why.

I was trying to find a bunch of stats.

Uh, anyhoo, they had something similar, but it was...

It wasn't quite the same thing, but there, there was sort of a, uh, maybe not highly accurate, but, like, good throw percentage kinda thing, which is similar, maybe not quite on that level.

The point is, though, it's, like, better than just catchable.

So I think they had that.

They had catchable and then, like, accurate, and Jordan Love was one of the highest in terms of accurate.

So yeah, I mean, it, it... [sighs] I don't know.

I, I, I, again, I'm a big stats guy.

I, I like advanced stats.

It's interesting stats, but again, it's one of those weird things where you start from opposite sides, right? You, on one side you have total subjectivity with nothing concrete, and you try to build toward concreteness, right? It's just me watching football.

Okay, well, that, that's cool, but, like, what, what are the mechanisms? You start trying to build mechanisms from there to, to work toward something concrete.

On the other side, you start from concrete, passing yards or completions, and you try to work the other way and, uh, become more, uh, uh...

I'm trying to think what the word is.

I can't think of it, but you're try- you're basically trying to get more accurate by stripping out the BS, but you are working towards subjectivity, which becomes a problem.

You're injecting subjectivity, and that's not a good thing to have.

Um, you know, the concreteness itself is beneficial.

And so sometimes when you talk about, for example, um, what is the PFF metric? The, uh, adjusted completion percentage.

That's maybe not as good, as, as highly accurate because it's, you know, it, it, there's a lot there, but it's still a completely con- uh, concrete metric because it's, it's all things that are 100% accurate.

We're gonna take this thing that's 100% accurate and we're gonna subtract these three things that are also 100% accurate to give us a new 100% accurate thing that is closer to what we want to know.

When you start doing things like highly accurate, w- you're introducing a lot of subjectivity into that.

Um, which it doesn't mean it's bad, it just, it kinda, it's, it...

We've crossed over.

You know, it's kinda like when you're out on, on the, uh, the spacecraft and you wanna stay tethered to it.

Now we're kinda, we might be still tethered a little bit, but we're floating away.

So again, it's an interesting stat, but, uh, eh, it's hard to know because now it's, now it's a guy judging these things.

Someone is at the front door.

I don't know.

Take, take it with a grain of salt I guess you could say.

Here's part two.

So maybe you can add this stat, these stats to your stat page, and what it is, it's, it's making statistics for stupid statistics-

[laughs]

... 'cause I think we're to that level now.

Grading stats.

And it can be called the NA- the NARS.

It's actually not a terrible thing.

I don't know how many people would care about it, but I've, like, I've, I've done, uh, you know, a decent amount- Already in terms of...

Like, just, just when I was ar- ar- arguing with this Bears fan and, uh, I mean, the, the... [sighs] I got him to block me.

I, I found out he was a Lions fan, and when I turned it back on the Lions, he snapped.

Like, he, he, he, he could put up with me when he was coming at the Packers and I, you know, I would call him stupid, and then he'd start swearing and, uh, whatever.

When I, when I found out he was a Lions fan, started turning it back on Goff, he snapped and blocked me, which was awesome.

Um, but anyways, it, it was like, "Oh, EPA, blah, blah, blah.

You all, you c-" And I, and I explained to him why it's a, a, a good metric.

Of course, he doesn't listen, he doesn't care.

He's throwing out team stats.

He's, he's flailing and arrogant and angry.

And so I was like, okay.

Well, so I went and found six of the best quarterback stats, and I showed him where Jordan Love ranked in all six of them.

The bottom line is, though, you could argue that you could create a metric that says, uh, first of all, tell what the stat actually says, and then maybe give it a score for how, how closely it correlates to just, like, the main goal that everyone's striving for, which is how good is that player? You know? Even, even if the stat isn't necessarily directly saying that, that's what everybody cares about.

So you can kinda give them a score and, and you could, you know...

Maybe, maybe we'll talk to Liz and she can help us put together a metric for that [laughs] on, on, uh, on how that all works.

But I think that could be kinda cool, actually, to look at all the different things and, and, uh, you know, so, I don't know, just can keep adding to the site as far as these are the metrics and, and what they're good at and what they're bad at and what they're actually telling you.

It would, it would be a pretty informative little tool for people to have.

It'd be good for me because, again, I, I always forget things, so it'd be a great reference to go back to.

Uh, the one, the one that was kinda surprising, and I've heard this before, I've always hated the metric, but apparently it's, it's actually very respected, and it does make a lot of sense when you look at how they do it.

I always thought passer rating was better than QBR, but QBR is ac- It was in that, that group of six.

'Cause I went in with five and I talked to AI, a couple different AIs, and they're like, "This is a good list.

I would add QBR," and kinda explained why.

So that was another one.

Jordan Love does rank quite well in QBR, by the way.

I think, I think sixth was his worst metric in all six of those, if I'm not mistaken.

So that's another thing that I, I wanted to share on social media, and I probably will because that's the biggest thing is, "Oh, you guys just care about EPA.

You care about EPA." No, we care about every single one of the actual metrics that tell you something, and the fact that they all say Jordan is good is what we're upset about.

That's what we're talking about, you fricking moron.

So it'd be nice to just have one thing to be like, "Nope, here you go.

Here's all of the stats.

Here's DVOA.

Here's EPA.

Here's CPOE.

Here's PFF.

Here's QBR.

Here's adjusted net yards per attempt." All of them, all of them say Jordan is top five, maybe top six.

Every single one, and I don't think Kaleb is in one of these.

So get out of my fricking face with this nonsense.

Anywho, please continue.

Hello? How are you?

The microanalytic rating system.

I like that, right?

[laughs]

Let's do this, right? And then I can have certain subcategories like yards per unnecessary data point.

[laughs]

Right? 'Cause what if, hey, what if, what if Josh Jacobs at, rushes for 3.2 yards a carry, and the grass happened to be 2.7 inches tall, and then we go to Carolina and he rushes for 4.5 yards a carry and the grass is 2.2 inches tall? So we should, we should log that.

It's a stat now, and it means something.

I don't know what, but it means, definitely means something, and it's real important, right? Or yards per unnecessary data points, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because we have to keep track of things that don't matter.

You know? If, whether the pass was accurate or almost accurate or super accurate, we, I mean, we have to, we have...

Maybe we should start measuring the, the distance that Christian Watson runs, like, when the, from his left foot and right foot touches and hit the ground.

'Cause maybe it's like 3.2 yards o- on a good play, but on a bad play it's like 2.9 yards.

I don't know.

We should, we should add that.

We could, we could also have the minutia score, because I think we need to get way more into the minute details.

Like, for instance, Jordan Love throws a 50-yard touchdown play and he missed .001 ounces of sweat under his left armpit.

[laughs]

That's a stat, and it's important.

I don't know why, but it should mean something, and if he maybe sweat a little more, he would've missed the shot, right? Um, we can look for subatomic efficiency.

[laughs]

SAE.

Everyone loves a good SAE.

Yeah.

We gotta check that a lot.

You know, "Hey, looks like you did good.

What did you eat today? Oh, you're .000 pounds lighter." Um, there's also the over index performance metric, the OIPM.

Everyone loves a good-

[laughs]

...

OIPM.

Got a little OIPM.

That could mean something horrible or something really good.

Or the detail to value ratio.

Mm-hmm.

I think we should bump up that.

Way more details when there's no value, and I think that'll just make football better.

I'm just, I just, I think I just made football better.

I mean, we all want football to be better, right? We want the refs to be better, but I think I just made football better.

You're welcome, everyone.

Now we're gonna keep a stat on every stupid thing.

We, um, micro-

I'd love for like-

Sorry about that

... oh, from week two to week three, Jordan Love had the least passing efficiency.

And the reason why they leave out s- week one and two is 'cause he was really good then and it would screw up their stupid, dumb stat.

Anyways-

Yeah

...

I'm done yelling into the phone, looking like a crazy guy in my parking garage.

Go Pack Go!

Well, yeah.

And, and, and again, this is why, this is why they, they do these things, because they, they start from the conclusion and work their way back.

This is what the, the Bears fan that I was arguing with yesterday, he starts from the conclusion that the Packers are bad- And he works backward.

So what does he do? He finds all the things that he finds bad.

"Oh, you're the seventh seed," which I- it's not even bad.

I mean, the, the frigging...

Again, the thing that kept ticking him off was, okay, well, Lions had a worse record and missed the playoffs, I think so, not sure what you're talking about.

Um, but again, like, "Oh, you're the seventh seed.

Oh, you're, you did the..." You know.

So, so any time you can find something, you say, "Ah, see? What happened? What happened?" Um, and I, I don't know if it's a dishonesty thing or if it's genuinely...

And again, I know people get all pissy about it, but if it's genuinely, like, an IQ thing, 'cause there, there are just certain concepts that some people just can't grasp, which is, which is weird to me, but it's, it's a, a real thing, and I, I wonder that, like, when I was talking to this guy, and maybe he was a child, I don't know, but I was talking to this guy on social media.

You could real- you could tell, like, there were concepts he was just not grasping, and, um, I don't know, you start to feel bad for, for making fun of him 'cause it's, it's just, it's clearly a mental deficiency.

Like, there's, there's something you're just...

You, you, you are just not understanding this.

Like, it, it's...

What I'm telling you is true and real, and, and you're just like, "Yeah, but what about what I said?" Well, that's not true, and I can prove it.

"Yeah, well, what about what I said?" [laughs] Like, wow.

Boy, oh, boy.

So couple things here that, um...

You know, and, and again, I, I don't, I don't necessarily mean it to sound mean.

I mean, it's just, you know, some people are born short, some people are born, you know, whatever.

It, we are what we are, and we can't help it, you know? At least with some things.

You, you should try to help the things you can.

But, you know, some people are born with 200 IQ and can do crazy things, and some people it's, it's different.

You figure, what, 16% of the population has an 85 or lower IQ.

That's one in six, and, you know, if that's the situation, there are, you know, you s- uh, hypothetical reasoning, like what if things they struggle with, abstract thinking, understanding ideas that aren't tied to concrete objects or immediate experiences.

If that doesn't sound like conversations on social media.

Counterfactual thinking, uh, analogical reasoning, seeing relationships between different concepts, things like a quarterback is to an offense as a conductor is an orches- is to an orchestra.

Um, second and third order thinking, that's a big one.

Instead of what happens if we do X, thinking if we do X, then Y houses Z, which by the way, in politics, good Lord.

In sports it's bad.

That's, that's the whole, like, not understanding cause and effect.

In politics, my goodness, this is...

I should probably stop saying this, 'cause it's, it's, it's a terrible thing to say, but this, this is why, uh, I'm not positive that, uh, everybody should vote.

[laughs] I don't know, man.

We, we gotta, we gotta figure something out, 'cause if, if you're not understanding that what you're doing can cause problems in the second and third order of great magnitude, that's a serious problem, and you need to stop screwing everything up, please and thank you.

Uh, systems thinking, understanding how many interconnected parts influence one another.

Example, how salary cap rules, draft strategy, coaching, injuries, and player development all interact over several years, which is, you know, no offense to the, uh, short-term thinking people, but you might be a one in sixer.

[laughs] I'm just saying.

Probabilistic reasoning, thinking in terms of likelihood rather than certainty.

Understand that a 70% chance still means the other outcome happens 30% of the time.

Also sounds like negative fans.

Uh, Bayesian reasoning, updating beliefs as new evidence arrives.

Good Lord, can nobody seem to do that? Uh, working memory, intensive reasoning, holding multiple pieces of information in mind while solving a problem.

Metacognition, thinking about one's own thinking, recognizing when you might be biased, confused, or missing information, which by the way, apparently the name is metacognition.

That's kind of what we've been working on a lot.

It's, it's kind of like getting outside of yourself and realizing that that pile of meat down there [laughs] is messed up, and it has confusions and, and problems and all kinds of stuff.

And so we need to go outside of ourselves to find out what is right and true and how things work, and make sure that that pile of meat follows the system because the system is right.

You cannot just go floating around.

That's why even if your mind is telling you that, "I don't understand this and that doesn't seem right to me," what I'm telling you is i- whether or not you can understand what I'm saying, you need to trust me that what I'm saying is correct.

Because if you can get in, get plugged into this machine here, you're going to be doing things the right way, and you should want to do things the right way.

There's no reason to pursue something that isn't correct.

There's no reason to do that.

It doesn't even make sense.

But again, it's, it's not meant to be insulting.

We're, we're...

At the end of the day, even people with relatively high IQs, we're idiots.

We're all idiots, and we're all biased, and we have all kinds of problems going on that are gonna cause us to come to the wrong conclusion.

That's why we need to...

It's like swimming in a swimming pool.

You gotta grab the edge, that solid, concrete block, because that's gonna help sustain us and, and hold us steady.

We can't just sit around floating in water.

We're not, we're not...

You know, that ain't gonna work.

We're gonna sink.

We're gonna drown, and there are systems and concrete things out there that can help us and guide us through these things so that we're not just trusting on this fricking gray matter with electrical pulses flying around.

I don't mean to, you know...

I hate when people do that generally.

I think it's kind of insulting to the, the brilliance of, of what we are, and that's true, but the other side of it genuinely is that there's, there's way too many issues going on to believe that we can just float around and come to the right conclusion magically by ourselves.

That ain't gonna happen.

We're just gonna be guided by our feelings, and we're gonna end up in the wrong spot.

So low IQ, high IQ, the bottom line is we struggle with certain things.

And we got to get plugged in to the right path.

And regardless of how good of a swimmer you are, let's say, all I'm doing is standing on the side saying, get over here and grab the edge.

So bringing it back to what you were talking about, all these, there's all these people that are doing things wrong.

And I don't know if they're doing it because they're not smart enough or if they're doing it because they're trying to deceive you or whatever.

But again, I'm just standing on the side saying, grab the edge.

Don't listen to these people because it's confusing as hell.

It is a mess out there.

It's a mess of people throwing all kinds of stats and all kinds of this.

And it will make you not like stats because it's like, well, my stat says you're stupid and my stat says you're good.

And this stat says, and like you said, it's the CPD OEDBG YL FTY squared plus metric.

And it all just gets to be a pile of, but here's the thing.

I see that as being subversive to stats themselves.

It's potentially or accidentally one of the other, an attempt to make stats unreliable.

Because when we just cloud this with a pile of, then suddenly you just throw the baby out with the bath water.

We can't do that.

We have certain statistics that act as guardrails and beyond statistics, all kinds of the other stuff that we've been talking about that act as guardrails.

And we need to keep those in place.

We can't throw those out.

We shouldn't throw those out.

But part of understanding what's good and why is going to help us discern as we go through and somebody says, check out my CBD, with no background evidence, nothing.

We don't know if it's good.

That's the other thing.