347: Geoff White – Ransomware Is a Business and It's Competing Against You

In today’s episode, we welcome another ISF veteran: journalist Geoff White. The last time Geoff was a guest on the podcast, it was 2024 and he had just released a book about how the tech industry launders money for criminal organizations. Today, Geoff comes on to talk about the latest installment in his podcast series *The Lazarus Heist* – now known as *Cyber Hack* –  in which he dives deep into ransomware attacks. Steve and Geoff discuss the changing nature of ransomware attacks, how AI is used, crypto and ransomware laundering, and the importance of businesses having a plan to deal with an attack when it inevitably comes.  **Key Takeaways:** 1. Ransomware attacks remain similar in strategy, but have become more industrialized in recent years. 2. Crime groups utilizing ransomware view themselves as businesses. and view targets not as victims but as competitors. 3. An immediate, outright criminalization of paying ransoms is the wrong path forward, but if done in phases it can be the best way to solve the issue of ransomware attacks. **Tune in to hear more about:** 1. Geoff’s investigation into Conti, one of the world’s most notorious ransomware gangs (**7:33**) 2. The impact of AI on ransomware attacks (**13:52**) 3. How money laundering is changing (**17:03**) **Standout Quotes:** 1. “I think for defenders, the listeners of your podcast, understanding \[ransomware] is a business and understanding you're not being attacked by a crime gang, you're being challenged by a business competitor, is a really interesting way of thinking about this. This is like a hostile takeover. The crime gangs do not think of themselves as hackers. They think of themselves as a business. Your security was weak, that's bad news for you, buddy. Our security, our technology was better, so you now have to pay us. It's effectively like a corporate raider mentality.” - Geoff White 2. “I think we're in a good place with cybersecurity, relatively speaking, where the defensive AI use is so strong and so well-funded and pumping so hard that make hay while the sun shines, get your AI defensive stuff in line, keep our advantage going, because I think the cybercrime gangs are a bit behind the curve there.” - Geoff White 3. “Let's imagine as a thought experiment,, the UK government tomorrow introduces legislation that says no more ransoms, illegal, enforceable by criminal law, illegal, criminally illegal to pay a ransom. Immediately you'll just be set with problems. Hospitals, there's points where hospitals to get the patients to survive would need to pay a ransom. Are you prepared to let people die because you don't want to pay a ransom?” - Geoff White **Read** the transcript of this episode **Subscribe** to the ISF Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts **Connect** with us on LinkedIn and Twitter *From the* Information Security Forum*, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management.*