Aug 31, 2026 · 1 hr 14 min · 10 segments
What can ancient human prehistory teach us about fighting fascism today? It turns out, quite a bit! So says historian Patrick Wyman, whose recent book, Lost Worlds, covers the 10,000 years between the…
Patrick WymanGuest
Aaron RegunbergHostMatt DaSilvaHost
There's a lot in this book about collapses, these moments when societies fell apart.
And I think I, like a lot of people nowadays, spend a good amount of time thinking about civilizational collapse because I think we're potentially headed towards a significant one that you're in.
And my kids are going to have to reckon with to one degree or another over the course of their lives as the climate crisis starts really escalating.
And your book has this interesting dichotomy because on the one hand, you are very clear.
Give people a little window into that horror show because, yeah, shit can get bad.
But you also, I think, continue with this sort of note of hope that you return to that even in the worst collapses, some people survive and keep on keeping on afterwards.
And I'll say this maybe is like making up sort of a point of dissent that doesn't actually need to exist at all.
But – There's a part of me that loves that, and I think it's why I really like post-apocalyptic movies and shows because it's comforting to think, oh yeah, even after the worst shit like zombies, life can go on.
But there's also a part of me that feels some concern about – we need hope obviously, but the bringing that into it – I do worry specifically when it comes to the existential threat of climate change today, because there is this increasing narrative that, yes, the climate's changing, and we just need to adapt.
We can ameliorate this crisis that powerful forces in our society are choosing to create.
And then two, I think it downplays how catastrophic this shit can get and the degree to which we can't maybe adapt our fragile, complex global systems to the kind of instability that is probably coming.
No, it's—I hear what you're saying because you have to strike this incredibly delicate balance, right? Where, like, I think that what I consider a note of hope and what you consider a note of hope, I think for a lot of people is just about the bleakest scenario that they can imagine.
So, like, when we're talking about hope, we're saying, like, this is not an extinction-level event.
There's a lot in this book about collapses, these moments when societies fell apart.
And I think I, like a lot of people nowadays, spend a good amount of time thinking about civilizational collapse because I think we're potentially headed towards a significant one that you're in.
And my kids are going to have to reckon with to one degree or another over the course of their lives as the climate crisis starts really escalating.
And your book has this interesting dichotomy because on the one hand, you are very clear.
Give people a little window into that horror show because, yeah, shit can get bad.
But you also, I think, continue with this sort of note of hope that you return to that even in the worst collapses, some people survive and keep on keeping on afterwards.
And I'll say this maybe is like making up sort of a point of dissent that doesn't actually need to exist at all.
But – There's a part of me that loves that, and I think it's why I really like post-apocalyptic movies and shows because it's comforting to think, oh yeah, even after the worst shit like zombies, life can go on.
But there's also a part of me that feels some concern about – we need hope obviously, but the bringing that into it – I do worry specifically when it comes to the existential threat of climate change today, because there is this increasing narrative that, yes, the climate's changing, and we just need to adapt.
We can ameliorate this crisis that powerful forces in our society are choosing to create.
And then two, I think it downplays how catastrophic this shit can get and the degree to which we can't maybe adapt our fragile, complex global systems to the kind of instability that is probably coming.
No, it's—I hear what you're saying because you have to strike this incredibly delicate balance, right? Where, like, I think that what I consider a note of hope and what you consider a note of hope, I think for a lot of people is just about the bleakest scenario that they can imagine.
So, like, when we're talking about hope, we're saying, like, this is not an extinction-level event.
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