Jun 9, 2026 · 1 hr 3 min · 11 segments
Jason joins to discuss Tando, a Bitcoin payments app in Kenya that connects Lightning to M-PESA. We get into why M-PESA dominates Kenyan payments, how Tando lets Bitcoiners spend sats anywhere M-PESA…
It's interesting because, you know, I mean, for years people have said like the war on cash.
I mean, obviously, it's a different situation in the U.S. You know, same, same, but different.
But, I mean, most of my peers have moved away from cash just from a convenience point of view.
Yeah.
Well, that was always my biggest concern.
When I first moved to Kenya about four years ago, it was like, this is the easiest way to turn a system into a CBDC.
Like, it could be a CBDC overnight if the government came in and said, hey, we're taking this over.
The government actually owns 30%, well, 30%, and they're trying to sell some of it, take in Safaricon, which is the company that runs Impaisa.
I mean, it's, I like to call it, And it's easy meme-wise for people to be and politicians to be anti-CBDC, right? Because for whatever reason, I guess it's a success in that it's just really bad marketing.
But what we're seeing globally is basically what I call like PBDCs, like private bank digital currencies.
That are nearly as bad as CB – can be nearly as bad as CBDCs because of public-private partnerships and coercion and
centralized points of failure.
Maybe
Like, it doesn't give governments, like, fine-tuned control over the money that a pure play CBDC might.
But on that note, like, do you – is that a – is that a – Obviously, I mean, I think people should probably just operate under the assumption that there's complete surveillance on the M-Pesa system.
But on like the censorship, money freezing side, is that a common problem? Do people see their M-Pesa accounts get frozen a lot?
It's a good question.
You know, if you're not doing anything illegal or suspicious, I think you're okay.
It's interesting because, you know, I mean, for years people have said like the war on cash.
I mean, obviously, it's a different situation in the U.S. You know, same, same, but different.
But, I mean, most of my peers have moved away from cash just from a convenience point of view.
Yeah.
Well, that was always my biggest concern.
When I first moved to Kenya about four years ago, it was like, this is the easiest way to turn a system into a CBDC.
Like, it could be a CBDC overnight if the government came in and said, hey, we're taking this over.
The government actually owns 30%, well, 30%, and they're trying to sell some of it, take in Safaricon, which is the company that runs Impaisa.
I mean, it's, I like to call it, And it's easy meme-wise for people to be and politicians to be anti-CBDC, right? Because for whatever reason, I guess it's a success in that it's just really bad marketing.
But what we're seeing globally is basically what I call like PBDCs, like private bank digital currencies.
That are nearly as bad as CB – can be nearly as bad as CBDCs because of public-private partnerships and coercion and
centralized points of failure.
Maybe
Like, it doesn't give governments, like, fine-tuned control over the money that a pure play CBDC might.
But on that note, like, do you – is that a – is that a – Obviously, I mean, I think people should probably just operate under the assumption that there's complete surveillance on the M-Pesa system.
But on like the censorship, money freezing side, is that a common problem? Do people see their M-Pesa accounts get frozen a lot?
It's a good question.
You know, if you're not doing anything illegal or suspicious, I think you're okay.
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