Are they gaslighting us into thinking that, that Megxit never happened, Robert? Because they're, you know, as you say, they're pressing a reset button by going back to the, the original place.

Well, they can press whatever buttons they like.

I mean, it's ridiculous.

The fact is that they can't forget the Op- Oprah interview.

They can't for- forget the Spare book.

Um, the, the Queen was very clear at the Sandringham summit that you can't be in, half in, half out.

It, it, the King has been pretty clear about it himself, but I'm, they don't seem to care.

Mm

But a less generous explanation would be are they scared of what's gonna happen if they cut him loose, and is that then gonna extend to this trial? Which, I mean, to be honest, after the victory with the judicial review, it's very hard to imagine Andrew getting into a, seeing the inside of a courtroom, let alone seeing the inside of a jail cell, isn't it? I mean.

I never thought he would, Tom.

I mean, I think that this whole business from the, the, the, the mistake by the police and the, or, or by the, the court, the judge, you know, o- over the warrants is, is just almost beggars belief really, that they, they were going to have such a major arrest on his 66th birthday, and they bungle it in this way.

Whoever bungled it, it was bungled.

Um, but as to Andrew, I mean, my only feeling with, with Andrew is he, you know, w- he obviously knows quite a lot.

Um, uh, we've just had Earl Spencer's book, you know, and was pretty damning for, damaging for the King.

We've had Harry's, um, uh, his Spare, you know, and then w- and we're probably gonna get with a bit of like Angela Kelly's book as well, and a few other things as, which will come out, and all of these things will then probably st- you know, people will say, "Well, why not Andrew?" If Andrew knows things that he wants to say, and he will do, then, you know, he probably will write his book.

[laughs]

What's the mood there? Has this taken everybody by surprise? What's your view?

Nothing's taken everybody by surprise.

Who would have thought the police would bungle this huge investigation the way they have bungled it? The reality is, surely they should have done their due diligence before putting their boots to the ground on a royal estate in Sandringham at the Royal Wood Farm, made sure that they'd got all their ducks in a row before they went there.

I mean, they knew it was going to be a major moment.

It was only his 66th birthday...

They knew it was going to be a huge moment, and surely someone in the police at Thames Valley must have got their act together and checked everything, but clearly they didn't.

Of course the judge says the case goes on, but it certainly muddied the waters for the future investigation.

Isn't that a strange coincidence?

You know, they've got Tom Cruise just dropping in going, they're great, I love them.

Yeah, I think that the James...

Look, the whole thing with the cards and the uniforms and they were sort of, you know, nouveau...

It was all a bit nouveau royal, wasn't it, really? It reminded me of a few years back when Fergie went to Sarah Ferguson, after she's put up, to Austria.

And she was the host of this big event.

And they had, they bust into sort of fake soldiers with the fake bearskins.

And she posed up with them.

It's for King Charles III, right? That's why we say God saves the king.

[laughs]

Yeah.

Then came this thing.

So I mean, look, as for all the stuff about pulp fiction and all this, I mean, it's, it's classic.

This is just classic knockabout stuff because the Mail had the serialization.

The others, you know, have got to try and get involved, get some sort of handle on the story, and so the easier way is to attack it.

I mean, look, I wrote a book many years ago with Ken Wolf, which was a number one bestseller, Diana's Bodyguard, and we, we made the decision to go with the Sunday Times.

How?

So what does that mean? Do we, were you debriefing people?

They were far more, they were more, uh, yeah, but they were more government savvy.

There's a lot-- Things have changed, I think, in, in since Leveson, and even after Diana's death, where they were bringing in people, external public relations people, and they were bringing in, poacher's term, gatekeepers, to be journalists that would be working at the palace, and we've seen that with Toby Rendry, and we've seen that with Vienna, uh, as well, and Mills.

I mean, the things that are different, I think in those days it, it happened.

I remember when they first got a communications director at the palace, he turned up.

It was Simon Lewis, I think it was.

He turned up and said he's the new comm-communications director, and the guy at the palace said, "I didn't think there was anything wrong with our phones." And that actually is the truth.

You know, the poor, poor old subeditor or copyeditor sounds like an ancient craft, and we spend so much, you know, on lawyers patching up the, the problems from it, whereas fact a good old-fashioned sub might've picked it up.

Rob? Yeah, I agree.

Uh, I'd, I'd say that, uh, Spare was of ...

Spare, I mean, some of the allegations, ex- claims in Spare were, are just a po- I mean, just outrageous.

I think there's ...

I mean, I've read s- most of the book now.

Um, I, I, you know, I personally still think Spencer's entitled to his opinion.

We've had quite a number of books written, um, um, about Diana, um, from the butler to the bodyguard, which I was involved in, to the private secretary.

... and his, his sons.

I mean, what do you think of that allegation?

I think we saw the so-called George Smith allegations that were thrown out by Scotland Yard.

I think that's a great one to throw in if you're going to sell a book in sterilization, but I think it's a load of old toffee.

One thing I would say, though, of course, it is 29 years on from Dinah's death.

Earl Spencer did play a significant role during that time, although him and his sister didn't always have the best relationships.

It was on and off.

so he's entitled to his perspective i think 29 years after the death of somebody they've become really probably an historic figure um you've got to be in your 40s now to even remember really remember who dinah dinah was and and therefore you know when you're talking about history you've got to have first-person sources he was certainly a first person, and I think in 100 years time that they'll be looking at his book and what he was saying, and then they'll make the decision from that.

That A, Harry may well have colluded in this book, helped Spencer to get it together, but B, probably more pertinent question, that Harry and Meghan... timed their uh shambolic return to britain to coincide with the release of this book because you know the story that's emerging is now we've got this royal war on one side spencer harry and megan and on the other king the king camilla william and catherine etc what do you say to the fact that harry and megan have come back to coincide with the publication of this book

I mean, this

is a nonsense because there's self-governing rules here.

There's no way there's going to be loads of paparazzi there.

This nonsense, and it is nonsense, is based upon maybe stuff that Harry told her about when he was a kid.

You know, we've had William and his kids and Catherine turn up.

The Royal Rotary System works.

There are no paparazzi there.

I think they'll be gone within the year, trust me.

going up to Scotland,

yeah, when William and Catherine are out of the way and they've gone on their travels.

I think that Harry and the kids and Meghan will probably go up to Scotland at some stage.

They're going to settle their house.

That's a busy time for them.

They're going to sort the kids out in school.

Again, a situation they're going to work on.

Well, I

Shocked?

[laughs] Yeah, I'm a bit shocked.

I think this is g- uh, u- ultimately I think this has got to do with, uh, money and coverage.

I think that, uh, Harry knows that being so far away he's not gonna be able to get quite the same amount of money and traction out of his father, uh, as he's going to be doing over here.

He's held a bit of a gun to his father's head in the three visits he's, uh, been over, this, particularly the last one, dangling the children as well, saying that, uh, they want to spend time with Grandpa.

Ultimately, i- they failed in the US.

The exper- the experiment was, has been hopeless after their initial cashing in, and they're, they're looking now to, um, build their brand over here.

Does this whole issue now with Harry coming back and, and Charles and William being on very different pages about it threaten that more loving relationship and them being very much on the same page, or do you think it's something they're gonna overcome and for the greater good of the monarchy William will be able to get over this?

What's going on here?

here?[laughs] Hi, George.

Yeah, it's a bit of a shock, this one.

But the reality is for Andy Berman, the prime minister's talking about security, saying it is a private matter.

Clearly there's been conversations with the King, although what...

We understand that the situation is that he was not told anything until Sunday.

That's a bit of a shock, really, to say the least.

And on the housing, is it possible he'll stay in actual royal housing?

They'll spend it with the Middletons again.

Yeah.

Quite right as well, and hence you have, as, as I've been writing about, you know, a crown divided.

And this is gonna be the biggest schism in the royal family since the abdication.

And so th- this is a real prob- it's a bigger problem now than it, it was when they left, when you broke the story on Brexit.

It's a bigger problem now because of all the water that's gone under the bridge, all that's been said with no apology.

And we've, we know that William and, and, and Harry are not even in conversation, are not even having conversations at the moment.

Yes.

So, I mean, you think that's a bit harsh, you're saying, Robert?

Well, I mean, I think it's just not realistic, really.

I mean, I think, number one, if Harry needs the money and his father is one of the richest men in the world, he's going to bail him out.

I mean, I think I'm going back years ago when William was going on his gap here and he said, oh, is your father going to chip in? And he said, well, I'm always bloody chipping in.

So the point is he will be chipping in here.

We understand he chipped in too, although it's not been admitted to the legal bills to Prince Andrew, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor.

So if his son is now looking for a bailout, I'm sure the check will be written.

And I just feel that sometimes Charles doesn't put the institution and the monarchy first.

Um, there have been alternatives provided, but- The majority, the vast majority of my audience would be incredibly disappointed if the King gave Harry this type of credibility, and especially would be turned off if Meghan Markle was in- included.

Well, I think that, I mean, w- whatever happens here, Kinsey, it's gonna be short-lived.

Because, you know, um, Harry's described William as his arch nemesis.

Well, William in, at, at some stage in the future with the King living with cancer, is gonna be in charge of the purse strings, he's gonna be in charge of the whole train set, and he's not gonna have his brother that, um, you know, annihilated his wife really, um, and called him his arch nemesis and breached every, every, um, trust that he could possibly do with his brother.

He's just not gonna...

They're on a different, as Charlie said, they're, they're on a different, a, a different path, at least a clear path that is to do with, I think more like the late Queen Elizabeth, looking after the institution rather than worrying about the personal, the personal issues and personalities of individual members of the royal family.

Uh, he'll be leaving, uh, William, Charles, a problem like, and I'm not comparing Harry with what Andrew did, but, um, all I'm saying, he's gonna leave him with a problem like the Queen left Andrew to Char- to Charles.

I mean, Jabo, he might be helping millions of people by funding some of these initiatives that are going to leave the planet better than we found it.

Beyond an old man's fondness to see his son and his grandchildren, why did he agree to honour them with an audience two weeks ago?

I think as he has cancer, I think he's been seeing a lot of people, Michael Fawcett being one of them.

He obviously wants to make sure that, you know, we don't know and he doesn't know how long he's got in this world.

He has a finite time.

Of course he does.

And I'm sure that he wants to... complete his life with having had the conversations that he wants to.

And I understand that.

But then guess what? Once it was all over and it was taken away, as you say, he was, touring nazi germany making plans to be reinstated as the king with wallace by his side you've got all these chips chan and diary you know calling wallace the gal lighter and stuff and i mean it it's incredible isn't it that these men who are brought up with this enormous privilege they they want to be free of the institution in the moment they're free what do they want they want to come back

Yeah, William's house

...

William's house.

But, um, it was better that it was done that way.

Look, we don't know what's happened, but I should imagine the fact ...

The one thing that I think is very significant in all of this, given that Harry was not overly critical of the King, but he was very critical of the, of Queen Camilla, was that she was there to support the King.

Because ...

The way they did it.

And I always go back to what, uh, Harry wrote, uh, in Spare around the time of Prince Philip's, uh, funeral in 2021 when he said that his father said to he and William, "Boys, please don't make my final years a misery." William and the King are just coming from such different places when it comes to this.

But, but also, the other thing that's significant for William is this: Harry is causing, uh, uh, you know, who's now ...

He, he's never gonna be the king.

We have three young children a- a- who are in line to the succession.

William i- is now dealing w- w- with the next stage of the monarchy, a monarchy for the, the latter part, the mid- middle part of the 21st century, and there's a complete distraction.

Because all we end, end up talking about, whilst all the good deeds that William is doing, he's supporting his father at Trooping, he's doing all the, um, um ...

He's, he's, uh, obviously involved in the idea of opening, making monarchy more transparent and maybe royal, royalty with a small R. He's got a vision for what that monarchy will be in the future.

Okay.

And you can only act on the information you're given.

The, the, there's also issues I think that are worth addressing.

It, it, I do know that, that, I mean, I'm, I'm told that the King, um, when he was Prince of Wales and Andrew had ma- many, had at least one long conversation about, um, these allegations, which Andrew denied them directly to, to the King, uh, when he was Prince of Wales.

And the, the, the point of all this is, is that, uh, uh, you know, if that is, if, if that's the case, you now have an issue going forward with a potential case against Andrew where the King of this country could be called under a subpoena to, to give evidence in a ca- uh, in his own court, which he can't do under the law because the case is brought in the name of the Crown.

So the, the very fact that there has been, uh, interaction between somebody who could be charged and the King of the, of the country means that a case in this country, um, if you were Andrew's lawyer you could argue that, um, he can't get a fair trial because you can't call witnesses.

And if he, if the, a key witness is the King, um, the current King, a case cannot be brought against Andrew, it, um, because he can't bring that, that evidence.

And we saw that in the case with the Paul Burrell case, which was dropped, um, because of it meant the, the fact that he would, uh, the Queen recalled a conversation with Burrell, and the case collapsed because the Queen could not be called as to give evidence in her own court.

Yeah

Robert, just explain, when it comes to putting a trip like this together, the monarch is traveling there and representing the UK government, isn't he? So who actually works out the itinerary? Who sets it?

Well, everything's a negotiation, and this has been negotiated in... for a long time.

You know, when they had a very successful trip to Windsor when President Trump came over the second time.

The relationship with America has start- y- you know, it's just so important.

I know we keep on banging on about the special relationship, and don't use it as quite as much anymore because it's probably a little bit less special.

But in terms of dollars, billions of dollars of the money that's involved, it's, it's very special.

In terms of the intelligence that we share, incredibly special.

What then is the, the significance of the meeting between the King and the president happening behind closed doors? Is it just simply to avoid the possibility of, as you mentioned before, one of those Zelensky moments?

And we just learned that she's also made an appearance on MasterChef, which obviously is going to tie into, you know, her previous Netflix show and all the cookery that she does on As Ever.

The reality is the Queen said you can't do both jobs, the late Queen, and you can't monetize the royal family.

And you can't.

And that's why they were out.

Now, they said they were leaving because they wanted privacy.

They don't want privacy.

The reality is they're clashing now in a country which is the debate is still open, very much so, on whether the future of the monarchy.

You wrote an excellent chapter in one of your many books, which I referred to recently, where you were talking about if possibly Charles was the monarch when we went to war with George Bush against Iraq, that Charles may have said more to Tony Blair than the late Queen actually did.

But is there anything new about this particular debate?

Well, yeah, there is really.

It all goes back to George Osborne, who changed the system so that the Sovereign Grant, um, is now the, the, the, the calculator really of what the royal family get.

And what's happened is the Sovereign Grant is calculated on a percentage of the profits for the Crown Estate, which has increased hugely, and that's what, what's happened.

And it was really, um, Osborne who decided to do this to sort of take it away from being a continual problem for the government of the day to work out what the finances should be.

But what's happened is because the Crown Estate is, is worth so much more, the Sovereign Grant has gone up exponentially.

So it's really gone out, out of control really in the last few years.

Yeah

But why is he being sent there? Is he being sent there to save our Prime Minister's skin? Is he being sent there to kind of smooth over the dreadful relations that we have between Trump and Starmer at the moment.

Well, Matt, you broke the story.

So it obviously put them on the back foot of the palace because they don't want to announce these things until all the issues have been ironed out.

So it's taken that long.

Worst kept secret.

But I think that Starmer is putting the king in a bit of a difficult position.

position.

I think he preyed on

Are we gonna see Prince Andrew interviewed, arrested, in handcuffs, charged?

Well, it can't just be Andrew.

It has to be the King.

It has to be, um, Amanda Thirsk, his, his private secretary.

All members of staff that work there, they have to hand over emails that are interacting.

It's a huge real problem for the monarchy because this, unlike, we live in the, you know, this 21st century where so much information comes out.

The y- younger people, you know, are far cleverer than me on the in- they're getting information from all sorts of places.

I mean, the, the wider public are more or less with the King at the moment, but they're not with Andrew.

Do you think at some stage Harry will move on from this, Rob? Do you think after this case eventually finishes, will he continue rallying against the media or do you think it's time for him to just get on with his life?

I personally think it's time for him to get on with his life, but the way he's been talking in court is that it's very personal.

He's talking about that he wanted to change the media landscape.

Well, the media landscape's changed dramatically over the last 20 years.

It's almost unrecognisable from what we're dealing with at the moment.

So I think in many ways, if that's what his aim is, he's banging at a door that's already open.

But, you know, I don't think he will...

Colleagues have been in court and they said, I think there's one or two security guards inside court with Harry at the moment, Rob.