URC Grand Final special with Jake White and Bernard Jackman

Just, uh, Jake, on that, where, where do you see the game at the moment? Where do you see the game going? Um, are you ...

Do you think it's in a good place?

Yeah, look, I've had this debate with a, a couple of coaches as well, Bernard, and we've, we've debated it.

I mean, I, I generally think that the team that defends is getting a lot of love.

I know coaches are saying it, it's the other way around, but-

Mm

... you know, if you think about it, they took away scoring tries against the goalpost the other day.

I mean, how many times have you scored tries against the goalpost? I mean, now taking three or four more a year away, that's just one stupid example.

But if you think about it, you kick the ball out, you go into touch.

I throw it in straight, I lift correctly, I set up a maul, and the first thing the ref says is, "Use it." And it's basically his way of making sure I give the ball back to the opposition, you know? And, uh-

Mm.

You knock the ball on, I get a scrum, I hold it at the eight man's feet.

He says, "Use it." You know, bottom line is, again, let's play.

You're not allowed to have the ball even though you guys have made the mistake, you know? And that's ...

And then the last one is multi-phase.

You can keep it for 10, 15 phases, and if it gets stuck under the, under the ruck, you know, in the middle of the ruck, he goes, "Use it.

Use it," the number nine.

And you've got five seconds.

I remember in the final, uh, there was a big call made where he blew, uh, one of the referees blew and-

Mm

... gave a turnover.

That's a 22 meter entry for, for not giving the ball back to the opposition.

So I suppose what I'm saying to you is that everything in, in rugby's gone in cycles.

You can have a look.

When attack is ...