Sep 20, 2026 · 1 hr 8 min · 20 segments
In Episode 210, “The Cost of Loyalty,” we look at how the relationship between employees and firms has changed, why loyalty can no longer be assumed, and what research says about engagement…
Andrew HawkinsHost
Pat BakerGuest
Well, I mean, honestly, I was definitely trying to build culture in the things that I was doing.
In my firm, because it was small and it was a lot of young people, that culture tended to ebb and flow a little bit.
There were times where there was what I would call much more culture than other times because of the employees and how they related to one another.
But overall, yeah, I tried to focus on it, but I don't know how many of my employees were that focused on it, to be quite honest.
Well, the part I find interesting, I don't know if now's the time to put this out there, but this is not a podcast dedicated to, hey, let's help Bob figure out what's going on in his own office.
This is something that I talk to a lot of people about and I pay more attention to it now.
In fact, actually, if you go back and look through probably like the last hundred podcasts we've done, there's a lot of it where the podcast becomes a bit of a sounding board where I'm asking other people to listen and join in as we try to clarify what thoughts are in our head because we're trying to make something better.
And that idea of public thinking shapes private thought that we've kind of been having as a recurring theme.
And so the part I find interesting about today's particular topic is that I don't really think today's story is about employees becoming less loyal, even though that's the easiest or at least usually the easiest explanation to reach for.
I think a more useful question is whether people are simply responding to a relationship that has become more transactional and whether firms have adjusted their expectations as quickly as employees have adjusted their behavior.
Which gets us into things like retention and compensation and professional growth and leadership or leadership opportunities, management opportunities.
And the larger question is really about culture and what it takes to create genuine investment when the old assumptions are no longer doing the work for us.
I think firms now have to be much more deliberate about creating the conditions that make loyalty worth giving.
This is where my brain was at when I texted you that, hey, I want to get into this.
Well, I mean, honestly, I was definitely trying to build culture in the things that I was doing.
In my firm, because it was small and it was a lot of young people, that culture tended to ebb and flow a little bit.
There were times where there was what I would call much more culture than other times because of the employees and how they related to one another.
But overall, yeah, I tried to focus on it, but I don't know how many of my employees were that focused on it, to be quite honest.
Well, the part I find interesting, I don't know if now's the time to put this out there, but this is not a podcast dedicated to, hey, let's help Bob figure out what's going on in his own office.
This is something that I talk to a lot of people about and I pay more attention to it now.
In fact, actually, if you go back and look through probably like the last hundred podcasts we've done, there's a lot of it where the podcast becomes a bit of a sounding board where I'm asking other people to listen and join in as we try to clarify what thoughts are in our head because we're trying to make something better.
And that idea of public thinking shapes private thought that we've kind of been having as a recurring theme.
And so the part I find interesting about today's particular topic is that I don't really think today's story is about employees becoming less loyal, even though that's the easiest or at least usually the easiest explanation to reach for.
I think a more useful question is whether people are simply responding to a relationship that has become more transactional and whether firms have adjusted their expectations as quickly as employees have adjusted their behavior.
Which gets us into things like retention and compensation and professional growth and leadership or leadership opportunities, management opportunities.
And the larger question is really about culture and what it takes to create genuine investment when the old assumptions are no longer doing the work for us.
I think firms now have to be much more deliberate about creating the conditions that make loyalty worth giving.
This is where my brain was at when I texted you that, hey, I want to get into this.
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