Ch. IV (pp. 24–26) — There is only the whole implying(?)

Um, but one of the themes we've been iterating on is, like, actually pretty cool and pretty deep.

It's, like, about the, the cultural shame that shows up throughout, like, almost all of academia, cultural shame around learning.

Hmm.

And that, that, that, that, that is instilled on us from education up, like early education up, where, where as like, I think the, a thing, like, I was able to name is, like, learning is hard.

And like, we were talking about all these different aspects of learning, and then in that field, like, finally just saying kind of like learning is hard felt really resonant of like, like all these ways where you can't really have that big of a learning that quickly.

Hmm.

Most of the-- like, you know, we-- I gotta be careful about exceptions.

I'm try-trying to make it totally universal, but this really overwhelming tendency that real learning is hard.

Mm-hmm.

And that, that's implicit for me with a book like this, and so what I'm trying to model in the podcast is, like, this, uh, way of relating to it that's kind of accepting, "Oh, hey, this is actually not easy to work through, but it's meaningful."

Mm-hmm.

But to act as if it's easy is foolish.

Mm.

And the shame is the fact that it's not really acknowledged as being this ever-present experience academically.

At, at least for both of us, this was really resonant, that it's not really acknowledged every step of the way because it's there every step of the way, that learning is difficult.

Hmm.

Especially learning at a collegiate level of learning is difficult the whole time, and it makes it less difficult to companion it.

It makes it less difficult to acknowledge.

And that's why I was calling it shame in terms of norm, is it's this, like, um, experience that betrays something of your incompetence, even though there's no way to learn without it.

And so it becomes this hidden, shameful thing to admit how difficult it is to learn anything.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause my experience is that most of the stuff that feels like a deep learning in this come from a real befuddlement-

Mm-hmm

... for many waves.

Mm-hmm.