Oct 8, 2026 · 32 min · 9 segments
- Scott Mautz is a popular keynote speaker, trainer, and author whose books include the bestselling *Leading from the Middle* and *The Mentally Strong Leader.* - He’s a former Procter & Gamble senior…
Scott MautzGuest
Skip StewartHost
Brad ParsonsHost
Uh, and the nature of my work brought me into touch with, uh, some really fascinating research from the Universities of Liverpool and Manchester, where there were some, there were a group of scientists that were studying the social behavior of monkeys, trying to understand the behavior of, of monkeys within their own social hierarchy.
And so they, they spent an awful lot of time recording the monkey packs and recording their behaviors of the different levels in the monkey pack.
They would record nurturing behaviors and aggressive behaviors and submissive behaviors.
And as part of that research, they would also, you know, um, collect the, the fecal matter of the monkeys and measure the stress hormone levels of the monkeys.
And what they found fascinated me, which was that the monkeys that were the most stressed in the monkey hierarchy aren't the monkeys that are at the top of the food chain that have the responsibility of running the entire pack, nor were the most stressed monkeys the ones, the youngest ones, who are often submitted to some really aggressive behaviors and chases and slaps.
The most, by far, stressed out monkeys were the ones in the dead center of the hierarchy, of the monkey hierarchy.
And I, and I soon came to learn that the same holds true for the, the monkey's slightly dimmer cousins, the human beings.
The bottom 10% of, of any organization's, uh, you know, performers, the bottom 10% of performance weren't people that had poor performance ratings.
You know, the, the bottom 10% in terms of happiness and fulfillment, I should say, weren't people that had poor performance ratings.
They just happened to be in positions that were in the middle of their organization.
And that speaks to the level of natural stress that's built into the job of the middle manager.
And so that we're, you know, we're all clear, when I say middle manager, because, you know, I realize there's some, you know, the, the, the cartoon Dilbert and the movie, uh, Office Space and the show The Office has kind of made the middle manager a swear word and a bad thing.
But middle manager's really just anybody who has a boss and is a boss, or aspires to be one someday, and must lead up, down, and across their organization to do their job effectively.
And, and the truth is, is that it's the, the nature of having to lead in every direction, of being at the, the horizontal and vertical intersection of the information and activity flow in the company, creates a dynamic unlike any other in leadership.
I- even more difficult than people that are, sit in C-suites is the job of these middle managers who must lead in every direction.
Uh, and the nature of my work brought me into touch with, uh, some really fascinating research from the Universities of Liverpool and Manchester, where there were some, there were a group of scientists that were studying the social behavior of monkeys, trying to understand the behavior of, of monkeys within their own social hierarchy.
And so they, they spent an awful lot of time recording the monkey packs and recording their behaviors of the different levels in the monkey pack.
They would record nurturing behaviors and aggressive behaviors and submissive behaviors.
And as part of that research, they would also, you know, um, collect the, the fecal matter of the monkeys and measure the stress hormone levels of the monkeys.
And what they found fascinated me, which was that the monkeys that were the most stressed in the monkey hierarchy aren't the monkeys that are at the top of the food chain that have the responsibility of running the entire pack, nor were the most stressed monkeys the ones, the youngest ones, who are often submitted to some really aggressive behaviors and chases and slaps.
The most, by far, stressed out monkeys were the ones in the dead center of the hierarchy, of the monkey hierarchy.
And I, and I soon came to learn that the same holds true for the, the monkey's slightly dimmer cousins, the human beings.
The bottom 10% of, of any organization's, uh, you know, performers, the bottom 10% of performance weren't people that had poor performance ratings.
You know, the, the bottom 10% in terms of happiness and fulfillment, I should say, weren't people that had poor performance ratings.
They just happened to be in positions that were in the middle of their organization.
And that speaks to the level of natural stress that's built into the job of the middle manager.
And so that we're, you know, we're all clear, when I say middle manager, because, you know, I realize there's some, you know, the, the, the cartoon Dilbert and the movie, uh, Office Space and the show The Office has kind of made the middle manager a swear word and a bad thing.
But middle manager's really just anybody who has a boss and is a boss, or aspires to be one someday, and must lead up, down, and across their organization to do their job effectively.
And, and the truth is, is that it's the, the nature of having to lead in every direction, of being at the, the horizontal and vertical intersection of the information and activity flow in the company, creates a dynamic unlike any other in leadership.
I- even more difficult than people that are, sit in C-suites is the job of these middle managers who must lead in every direction.
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