This is a big concept, I know, but I think it's where we are heading now in our definition.

Yeah, and I would agree with all of that.

I think that's a lovely definition.

And I think this notion of citing the woman and her family in her life experience, and possibly even the life experience of her own parents, because people inherit things through the family, inherit knowledge and knowledge.

expectations through the family as well, don't they? And also, I think people sometimes think that trauma-informed care is about birth trauma.

But of course, many people come to pregnancy, labour and birth with adverse childhood experiences, things that have happened in their past that aren't directly related to maternity care necessarily, but which get triggered potentially by what happens to them during their maternity episode.

And I would also add, and I think you meant this anyway, Jazee, but I would also add that in the UK at the moment, we have a lot of emphasis on so-called listening to women.

So tell me, how can we improve that all around the world?

So I suppose my question is, with the rising intervention rate that we are seeing, is it, is it working? Is the still birth rate coming down? Is maternal death rate coming down? Are we seeing the improvements that these changes have set out with the intent of improving? If that makes sense.

The stillbirth rate is going down.

Has gone down, I should say.

Uh, but nowhere near at the rate that the government has a target for.

Um, and the maternal mortality rate is going up, so in the opposite direction.

Um, and some of that is because of a rise in maternal suicide in the postnatal period.

And that raises questions about the fact that if you focus so much on the intrapartum period, which is where a lot of the focus is, and you don't recognize the fact that in the postpartum period, women need support, and they need midwifery care, and they need other kinds of care, um, then, then we drop the ball.

Um, and I think it's, I don't know whether you want to talk about, uh, about the, Sue, about the Northern Ireland review and the, the Wales that have used the same methodology, which has been doing what, exactly what you're saying in their reviews, Sue.

From your perspective, Sue, how have you seen midwives managing the demands of clinical practice alongside trying to get research careers going?

So I think partly through the route that Meg's talked about.

Also, just as an example, we have a network of midwife practitioners who are interested in research in the Northwest.

And some of the work we've done in the past has been starting with audits, so service audits across the patch and publishing some of the results of those audits.

So building the capacity of people within their job and getting them publications so they've got something on their portfolio so they can then go and apply for, because sometimes to apply for these awards, you have to have a starting point.

So it's providing a space where they can do that as part of their job, as part of a group, and then gradually build it up.

Sometimes it's through master's programmes, so working with master's students, midwives who want to do master's and they do that part-time, and then working with them to make sure their dissertation is publishable so that, again, they get that in terms of building their portfolio.

Is there anything that we could stop expecting midwives to do that would help them to further a research career or get started or make the space? It's up to Meg or me.