Oh, so it's like a smart jegging.

Yes.

So the motion was, apparently, this house believes women are their own worst enemies in terms of the glass ceiling.

What a terrible motion anyway, right? So, but what the really brilliant thing is, Liz is meant to argue for this, that women are their own worst enemies, but she says...

I kept forgetting which way I was arguing... because she's just Liz Jones so she couldn't really work out which way you know so she kept you know she kept guessing it wrong and anyway she lost 400 to 90 not that it doesn't still hurt yeah And so she was now disillusioned with elite universities forever and ever, even though at the beginning of the article she said if only she'd gone to an elite university, her life would have been perfect.

Obviously, we know it wouldn't have been because she's Liz.

And then she also went to the Oxford Union two years later for a debate on promiscuity.

Yeah, but she

Absolutely.

Like, I can, uh, we can rec- we can recommend this album.

It's really good.

Um, is that she has an instinct usually for the something that's just about to happen, so th- that she'll just lock onto.

It's just about to happen, and she can catch that kind of wave.

And with this, it's not quite like that.

So a lot of the sounds are familiar if you liked house music in the kind of '90s or early or, or late '80s or a- around that time.

But given the size and spectacle of her shows, I wonder if you think she would.

... about a sound, a glossiness, a kind of a shield that I think both Sugababes and All Saints had.

Yeah, and it's an R&B factor, isn't it? So basically, if you think about things like En Vogue or, uh, Destiny's Child, you know, and specifically for London Records, if you have acts as amazing as Salt-N-Pepa and, and Run-DMC, th- those are acts that change things, you know? They absolutely change things.

So to have kind of almost access to those acts, to understand what they can do, it's not like you're going to then replicate them in Britain, 'cause you can't do that.

Obviously, you can't.

They're from a very particular kind of hip-hop culture.

You can't do that.

But even basic things like I have no doubt that if you are signed to London Records, you'll go into the office and you'll go, "Ooh, what records can I have?" [laughs] And you'll go out with a big kind of arm full of free records, and some of those will be amazing hip-hop records from, from America, and you will be as a musician influenced by that.

And was gonna save the world.

When I saw your face.

I think East 17 are interesting because I think the easy thing to say about them, like the outsider thing to say was they weren't that good, they were never gonna last, right? But I don't necessarily think that's true.

They had a couple of really big hits that are still, that would still lastSo they've got a great band, but what happens to them is kind of like what happens to loads of pop bands.

So they look fabulous, they get signed, they've got the songs, they're all over Smash Hits, they're all over Pop TV.

They start working, and with young bands like that, especially 'cause they're young and they don't need much sleep, y- you know, but literally they don't need much sleep.

Like, they are worked to the bone.

You will, like, not have a day off.

So much to gain, so much to lose, like a pain you endure more than enjoy.

And the next day, or maybe even that evening if you were allowed on the phone [laughs]

[laughs][laughs] You would talk to your friends about Top of the Pops, but definitely the next day in school you would talk about Top of the Pops.

You know, you would do things like they would do the chart rundown, and you would cheer when, [laughs] when it was a band that you liked was going up.

And when they were going d- down, you would go, "Mm." And if it was a band you didn't like, you'd go, "Boo." Anyway, it was really important.

It was very often the place that you first saw a band, whatever that was.

Whether that was Shalamar, whether that was Bronski Beat or, you know, so many acts the first time you'd...

The first time I saw Madonna, Top of the Pops.

I'm doing my job.

But back in the early '80s, she was a fan, along with the rest of us

So they had, uh, backcombed hair, which we could all do.

I used a suede brush for mine, which was a metal brush to make my hair stick up, and it was really bad for your hair.

Don't do that.

But I would, like, backcomb my hair in a Bananarama style.

And I remember the very first time they were on Top of the Pops, which was with Fun Boy Three, one of them had a belt, normal belt, and she-- I could see that she'd held it together with a clip that you would have in your hair, and I thought, "Oh, my God.

It's like a pop star that does what I do" And they looked-- So they looked like they were having really good fun with, you know, Terry Hall and the rest of Fun Boy Three, so they were obviously really cool.

How does that seem now as well from today's lens?

Yep.

You know, they just deal with the kind of non-controversial parts of his life, which is his, him as a performer.

They don't deal with any of the child sexual abuse allegations or anything like that.

This is Miranda Sawyer, host of The Observer's culture podcast, We Have Notes.

Michael, the film, was s- was meant to, they'd written a script about it, and they filmed it, was meant to deal with one of the families of one of the alleged victims.