and i'm like i'm not gay and he goes okay and he kind of rolled his eyes i'm like maybe i'm bi curious he's like okay you know then i went through my bisexual phase

well can i just say so it's interesting i in order to survive i would deny it to the kids at school um but i never denied it to myself and weirdly i know there's a lot of talk about gay shame self-loathing and a lot of my books cover the journey I mean they all have different plots different characters but deep down they cover the journey from gay shame to self-knowledge self-acceptance self-love deep down I always respected myself for being gay I was always outraged other people didn't accept me it seemed like an injustice that everybody hated me for it and I had this determination an actual self-respect I think But it was interesting hearing you talk about going out on the scene for the first time, because I went, we go to something called Sixth Form College in the UK, where 16 to 18, before we go to university, what you call college, we go to a bit more of a senior school.

And the one that I went to was on the outskirts of Manchester, so much closer to where my small towns were.

So when we started going out, I found myself those allies, those girlfriends who would come with me.

And in the early 90s, there was suddenly this change and gay was becoming fringe cool, outsider cool.

Yes.

You know, you had Madonna Vogue, the Blonde Ambition tour, the Truth or Dare film.

Like what's the idea that you got to actually start writing this book?

But what made you want to take on that role at this point in your career?

Outrage.

Yeah.

I got...

I mean, so this is what happens when I'm now the other side of 50.

And as you get older, things that you would suck up or be polite and diplomatic about when you were younger, you just can't be arsed anymore.

You really can't be arsed anymore.

How did you react to that

Does that take you back to the dance floor? Does this album take you to that place? Is it a place you wanna go?

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I always thought of the dance floor as it was presented in the original Confessions album as a place of escape, distraction, joy.

Here she presents it as a place of freedom in the opening track.

Also kind of transcendence.

Um, she highlights something spiritual about it.

And without wanting to sound pretentious, I think, you know, there's always been evidence through all the civilizations we have records of that dance was an activity that people would do, uh, a communal activity.

And I think it's a force for social cohesion.

And Danceeteria was a real place.

Come on in.

I, I wanna tell this to you.

I wouldn't tell anybody else, I'll just say that now.

Um, I wrote a book called The Madonna of Bolton, which was originally called Madonna and Me, actually, but it became more about the character's relationship with his hometown and having to get out.

It's about a young gay boy growing up in Bolton.

I was born in Bury, went to school in Bury, but we lived in Bolton from the age of two.

That's where my parents were from.

A, the story behind it, but also the journey to get it to where it is now for people to read it through your independent publishing company.

So where did your inspiration come from for the story or what themes were you wanting to explore in this book?

Well, that's a good question.

Well, I did a book called One Love that went down very well and that was about... queer alternative relationships.

It was about, without giving too much away, it was about a pair of best friends who'd been very close for 20 years, but one of them was in love with the other, and they had to kind of work out what they were to each other.

And Without telling you anything about the ending of any detail, the ultimate message is, you know, when you're queer, you have this kind of freedom.

Queer means alternative, different to the norm.

You're offered more freedom to invent.

So tell us then, tell us a bit more about Pansy.

Get Summer Splash savings now at Whole Foods Market.

[upbeat music] Now, this is the Radio 2 Book Club with Sara Cox.

Good

... do it with my first one.

Slightly easier for us because I stayed with my big traditional American publisher.

So we're doing it at the same time, which takes a bit of the risk out of it.