When you watched the documentary, what red flags did you see?

There were just absolute glaring red flags.

Their history, I think the fact that he had a criminal record, I mean, there were some obvious ones, kind of superficial ones.

I mean, there were so many red flags you know, in terms of, you know, just the relationship between the individuals, the fact that the, you know, that the death occurred so far away, which is very odd.

The fact that she was in a place where she seems to really be putting her life together.

The fact that there was a separation, that he was stalking her, that he was tracking her.

You know, I could go on and on about some of the red flags in terms of, you know, is this a suicide or could this be something else? And there's obviously some evidence in terms of her buying a gun.

In your work, you've actually seen this lines up with other cases that you've

We know that Ramirez suffered damage to both the prefrontal cortex and the temporal lobe, areas of the brain involved in judgment, impulse control, emotional regulation, and aggression.

I definitely think that he has brain damage.

You know, I'm convinced of that.

And there were several attempts to evaluate him neuropsychologically.

He was very resistant to any kind of psychological testing.

But finally, I think it was in the early 2000s, you know, people did try to meet with him and they were able to do limited testing.

And clearly he had frontal lobe dysfunction.

While Mercedes Ramirez is pregnant with Richard, she is exposed to industrial chemicals.

What do you think, Dr. Johnson?

I think it's so tricky.

I do think that there was some attempt, even at the beginning, to kind of carve out these exceptions.

So I think there was never a time when people said, oh, soldiers would fall into that category.

I think from the very beginning, maybe, you know, people who were in the mob There was an attempt to kind of carve out those individuals, which you can say why.

I mean, it could be arbitrary.

Now, I think there's certainly an argument for carving out soldiers who were part of war and those kinds of things.

How do you see it?

Is that right?

That's exactly it.

It's kind of saying basically that we need to be held accountable for behaviors that we understand and appreciate are wrong in our society.

And I think that's the confusing part oftentimes.

for a lot of people who are looking at different cases, particularly if there seems to be some kind of, quote, premeditation.

People will kind of go, OK, well, clearly this person is premeditated.

This person left the scene afterwards.

Visit SpendQuest.com for more details.

But yeah, I mean, to start, what do you make of that agreement?

Well, there certainly is a precedent in terms of interviewing serial killers by the FBI's BAU unit because I think there is some hope and belief that information that you gather from people who committed these acts can help stop future ones you know can help capture and to that extent i think that's a valid um endeavor you know can we then talk to this person can we you know ask all the questions about access to victims about victimology why did you choose this particular person why did you not choose this particular person how did you make this person feel at ease you know how you know what was it like um fantasizing and not acting what made you decide to act How did you go from planning to implementation? There's a million different questions that may help stop somebody in the future.

Certainly, it's worthwhile trying to solve other cases he may be responsible for.

There are families out there waiting.

As a psychologist, I'm also saying, okay, my thoughts are, yes, we definitely want to look at how can you, Rex Heerman, help us stop other serial killers or maybe solve other serial killer cases.

Also, how can we stop other troubled children from turning into you, you know, from turning into a serial killer? So I think there are clues oftentimes in people's backgrounds and looking at, you know, why didn't you go down a different path? What prevented you from getting help? At what point did you start fantasizing about hurting somebody? And who did you fantasize about hurting? And what was that? What were you thinking that was going to help you with? What purpose was that serving for you? Looking for intervention spaces along the way.

So I think there's lots of good arguments for interviewing somebody like Rex Heerman.

How has it changed? What do you make of this case now that it's come to a close?

Can you kind of jump in and just tell us what creates a man like Rex Ullman?

I think we've gotten some clues about what creates a sexually sadistic serial killer, but there's a lot of things that we still don't know.

But I think, you know, when we look at somebody like Rex Huberman, we look at this combination and it's always, unfortunately for us as researchers, it's always a unique combination of factors that lead somebody to wind up not only fantasizing about hurting other people, but actually carrying that out.

And it oftentimes starts, you know, in childhood.

You know, we all bring not just our childhood experiences, but we also bring our genetic makeup with us.

So nobody's born, there's no such thing as a blank slate, right? That we, I know I was taught that many, many years ago that we're kind of blank slates, but we're not.

We have certain temperaments and then we have these life experiences.

that's the craziest part of the whole thing i think for me

You're hearing Dr. Joni Johnston, a clinical psychologist who spent decades delving into the minds of criminals, like Rex Heuermann.

And I think it was because I thought his family would continue to stand behind him.

I think if he believed that his family thought he was innocent, and he could convince them of that, no matter what the evidence was to the contrary, then I think he would never have pleaded.

But I, I think he's realized at this point that his family does believe he did this, and I think that changes everything for him.

Here again is Dr. Joni Johnston.

I think that the things that Rex Heuermann did, the horrible things that he did, I think are in some respects some of the most precious things to him.

And I think he wants to keep those to himself.

I mean, this is not somebody who is a narcissist in the classic sense of BTK who's calling the media and, you know, wanting-

What do you make of that?

I would agree with what Susan said.

I mean, obviously, we don't know many facts about this case, but certainly the different level of violence that was inflicted upon the wife versus the dentist.

I think it's probably the most likely possibility at this point.

As far as this idea that he, Rex, could allegedly conceal this degree of a double life from her, what does that say about potentially him as a manipulator and her as a victim of this manipulation?

There were certainly some things, such as the locked room in the basement where nobody was gonna go into.

There were certainly some things there that I think most of us as spouses would wonder about or be curious about why we were not invited in there.

There may have been certainly some clues of deception that she might not have seen or wanted to see.

At the same time, I will also say, and, and this is something I feel very strongly about, I'm always so careful about including family members and pointing a finger at family members without there being evidence of their involvement.

My husband goes to yoga almost every single day, and I'll tell you, I have not been to his yoga class, so I take it on faith that he is going to yoga.

So could he be sneaking [laughs] down to the beach and meeting somebody? I mean, yes, I guess he could.

"I'm better now that you're on the phone." I was just stunned that the allegations so far have not seemed to cloud her, like, adoration for him.