But where did we hesitate when we shouldn't have? Where did we move too fast? What assumptions do we tend to make? The debrief should be uncomfortable.

Yes, yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

It's actually very hard to create the same ambiance in a practice as it is in reality.

So the best possible training is to go through it and then you remember clearly.

I certainly found in the briefings and things that we've done, all the simulations we've done, that's a sort of one-hour high-level session doesn't really help very much.

What does help, I think, is firstly a drill down into those little details you don't think are important like literally the call is there you know what is john's home number or phone mobile number if we need to ring him on on on sunday night at midnight and you'd be surprised how many people think they've got that but when you really actually read it oh yeah we meant to update that last year but so and so's left now and you know that sort of thing i think just that level of detail but then if What I found very helpful is sort of real life simulations.

Yeah, great.

passion and conviction about the company you're working with and

where you want to go and enjoy the people you're working with, by and large, you've really got to want to do it.

Now, the media exposure, the risk, everything else, you don't do that just to do a job sort of thing.

And then secondly, I think one's increasingly become almost like the conductor of an orchestra, if you agree, Catherine, but you've got so many stakeholders to balance these days.

You've obviously got a governance role within the company, but at the same time, you're not policemen.

You're there to stand beside the CEO and the management team through thick and thin and support them.

And again, if I go back not so many years, really stakeholder primacy was shareholder primacy.

What happens if we have an operational ass integrity issue with some of your businesses and the peer review running some of the most significant and operationally sort of the impact would be incredible in an operational

Would you agree with any of that?

I would agree very much that historically anyway, there's been a bit of an old boys club that was rapidly accompanied by an old girls club as well of similar type people, whichever gender, coming from similar backgrounds and just sort of moving around Robin of boards.

I certainly found that in recruiting directors for boards, the same names come up.

or came up every time.

And I think that was a mistake.

And not that there was anything wrong with any of them.

They're all good people.

Is this the new normal?

And do you get a sense, when you think about Lee and Jack, a sense of what your support means to them?

Absolutely.

I get messages from Jack.

Orlando actually made him sandwiches this year.

He doesn't eat them, but his dad does.

I think Jack has his own diet and anyway, they were there.

And Linda got a message on Facebook later on to say thank you, which is nice.

But actually, do you know what? For somebody knowing that somebody like you has done something like that will mean such a huge amount.

I'm about something else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's, um, There's three things.

These are not the only three ways of slicing this orange, but this is how I do it.

You got to understand what's the vision and the mission.

So what's your scoping language? What vision of the good life are you actually offering? Because all of philosophy, all of theology, all of anything that we do as humans is trying implicitly or explicitly to articulate and walk into the good life.

John, what are the obstacles that men have to bridging those or prejudices or stereotypes that men have generationally that make it hard to bridge those?

And this is where you come in.

Yes.

And really the fact that it is necessary right now to extend that kind of on ramp into a normal Catholic life past college into young adulthood is indicative of a cultural breakdown.

Because 50 years ago, my work would have been unnecessary because typically there was very little lag time between graduation from college and then catapulting into the life of family.

Now we have the, I'm 33, about to be 34.

I'm still not married, dating a good woman currently.

So God willing, we'll see where that goes.

Exactly.

[laughs]

I didn't buy into this.

I came from an organization that was blame and punish.

Blame and punish.

You did it wrong, you're gonna get punished.

So it takes a while to buy, to buy into this program.

And the first time it ever happened to me, which Jeff and I just were reminded about a, a little, not too long ago, [chuckles] where I got a call from s- uh, emergency services saying, "Oh, there's a guy, a crane, crane was horizontal, who was walking on the crane, just walking out into the crane and changing the cable at the end of the crane." He was eight, nine feet up in the air.

Depending on, depending on the size.